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RoboChrist 9000 posted:I mean, wasn't just Magneto. Xavier seems pretty clear here that Orchis' thesis is correct and mutants will inherit the Earth.
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Mar 18, 2024 17:44
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BrianWilly posted:That's fair, but you still really can't claim self-defense against a bunch of people literally packing their bags and promising to leave you alone, no matter how mean they were about it.
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Mar 18, 2024 17:45
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BrianWilly posted:That's fair, but you still really can't claim self-defense against a bunch of people literally packing their bags and promising to leave you alone, no matter how mean they were about it. I mean if we accept the thesis they are both working from, then extinction is going to result for either baseline humanity or mutantkind. If you are a baseline human being, what are you going to do? I'm not saying Orchis aren't villains even without the external influence of Nimrod, they absolutely are, but I'm saying that so is ultimately Krakoa in it own way. They are both operating on the same exact starting principles and from that doing what they believe is necessary to make their faction come out on to in the racial cold war. And likewise both of them are subverted and co-opted from within by forces - Sinister/Nimrod - that don't give a gently caress about any of this. I'm not sure how much of all that Hickman had planned, but yeah. The parallels seem so obvious when you think about them and Hickman is such a talented writer that it feels really improbable to me that he did not intend Orchis and Krakoa be seen as two fruits of the same poison tree.
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Mar 18, 2024 17:49
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Xavier admitted pretty soon after that those were not his true feelings. He actually quite dislikes the whole Mutant separation thing.
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Mar 18, 2024 18:24
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Going extinct because your babies are born mutants is a dumb thing to be upset about and not an excuse to forcibly exterminate mutants.
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Mar 18, 2024 18:27
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Soonmot posted:Going extinct because your babies are born mutants is a dumb thing to be upset about and not an excuse to forcibly exterminate mutants.
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Mar 18, 2024 18:31
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Soonmot posted:Going extinct because your babies are born mutants is a dumb thing to be upset about and not an excuse to forcibly exterminate mutants. If you accept the premise that mutants represent a different species from humanity - a premise both Krakoa and Orchis are predicated upon - I'm not sure I agree? Like again, the premises we are working with here are 1. Mutants and humans are different species/races/whatever. 2. Mutants and humans cannot coexist peacefully in the same society. 3. If actions are not taken, mutants will replace humanity in a relative short period of time. I reject all three of those premises but yeah. If you accept them, things get murkier. And, I mean, that's good writing, and that's I think the point Hickman had in mind? These are evil ideas, so naturally they bear wicked fruit. Orchis is worse than Krakoa, but they are both fruit of a poison tree is my point. Only the ending we got seems to fail to realize this. Also, yeah, we're talking about people, not flawless logic robots. "We are going to bury you." is the sort of talk that gets people thinking of self-defense pretty much no matter the context.
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Mar 18, 2024 18:40
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Sympatric evolution would be possible but would take a long rear end time.
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Mar 18, 2024 18:45
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Yeah, from the beginning Krakoa was ideologically captured by its worst enemies, and unfortunately, this wound up having nothing to do with why it fell apart.
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Mar 18, 2024 19:03
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:I mean, wasn't just Magneto. Xavier seems pretty clear here that Orchis' thesis is correct and mutants will inherit the Earth. Krakoa was definitely an ethnostate, but also definitely a fictional utopian one which could divest itself from a lot of the issues with real ethnostates through the magic of fiction. It was flawed and founded on some really terrible decisions within the fiction, and it was the most interesting and fun and resonant era of X-Men comics I've ever read. I knew it wouldn't last forever, I was pretty sure it would end with a return to the same old status quo, but I'm still sad to see it go and not terribly excited for what's been announced following it. I'd love to be wrong though.
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Mar 18, 2024 19:06
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Rand Brittain posted:Yeah, from the beginning Krakoa was ideologically captured by its worst enemies, and unfortunately, this wound up having nothing to do with why it fell apart. Uh, I don't recall every detail super clearly, but.... Nimrod came back online because of Mystique. Apocalypse (and his family) caused the whole mess with Arakko that eventually led to the takeover of Mars and embolding Fei Long and Statis. Sinister caused Orchis to become popular when the bullshit he did came out publicly. Shaw and Selene helped out Orchis achieve their Gala attack plans, and so did Moira after she got fed up with all the stuff Sinister/Apocalypse/Destiny did and thus betrayed her race. And Sabertooth used his imprisonment to cause internal fighting in Krakoa and then, when he got out, started chasing down the survivors. The X-Men having their worst enemies around led to the fall of Krakoa, both directly and indirectly.
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Mar 18, 2024 19:11
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Here's a Hot Take: If you're concerned that your species is being replaced by another, you shouldn't build robots to murder children. In fact, if you're concerned that you're being "replaced" at all, you're a loving piece of poo poo.
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Mar 18, 2024 19:22
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Woebin posted:I read this as "mutants are/will be the dominant species", not "humanity will be extinct in favor of mutants". Trying to exterminate mutants as a response to that isn't self-defense (and the term "racial self-defense" sounds dangerously close to some "great replacement" type thinking to me - which, to be clear, is not something I'm accusing you of). No, I get you entirely. Like I agree "racial self defense" is loving nonsense because the premises on which the idea rests are nonsense. The issue is - at least in my reading here - the baseline humans fear a great replacement, and the mutant response is "your fears are justified and correct." Like, again, I'm not saying Orchis isn't wrong, I'm saying both sides are playing into the same ideological poison that creates that wrongness. I shouldn't need to post this, but yeah, building killer robots to murder people for the crime of being is not, you know acceptable. I'd also like to point out that all my issues with Krakoa are about the ending and the morality of it overall and agree the status quo, while it lasted, was a lot of fun. I just get soured on it all because I think any allegory that - by design or accident, and in this case I am saying it's the latter, I'm not accusing the writers of being bigoted assholes - argues multiculturalism/diversity is impossible and the only way for a minority group to thrive is to be set apart and left to itself is gross as hell. I don't think the writers we got did this poo poo on purpose, but I also don't think this mistake is one Hickman would have made, and that it's really unfortunate such a great run had to go out with a gross accidental aesop and a generally kind of underwhelming finish. Especially after the madness of Sins of Sinister, having the finale of Krakoa be "so the robots showed up and killed everyone" just feels like an anticlimax if nothing else.
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Mar 18, 2024 20:06
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:I'm not sure how much of all that Hickman had planned, but yeah. The parallels seem so obvious when you think about them and Hickman is such a talented writer that it feels really improbable to me that he did not intend Orchis and Krakoa be seen as two fruits of the same poison tree. This was made explicit when we found out the Omega sentinel had come back from multiple futures of mutant domination
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Mar 18, 2024 20:25
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There is no equivalent action that Krakoa is taking to GIANT ROBOTS BUILT FOR EXTERMINATION. It is a fundamentally wrong reading of not just Krakoa but literally every X-Men comic if you empathize with the group who wants to slaughter the people who are different. If you think "we're being replaced!" is an acceptable position, well... I dunno. That sucks. Hickman et. al. built a morally complex situation in Krokoa (villain amnesty, separatism) but I think they'd look at you crosseyed if you read into it all that the group that's comprised of 40% Hydra is supposed to be empathized with.
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Mar 18, 2024 20:30
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Did you not read the multiple times over multiple posts robochrist explained how they aren't empathizing with orchis
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Mar 18, 2024 20:49
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:If Krakoa was just, like, a resort island that catered to mutants and only mutants, that's a safe space. I would argue this is exactly how half the X-writers treated Krakoa. Not to say they disengaged with the ethnostate reading entirely but after a certain point lines like X-Factor and New Mutants only engaged with the ruling body of Krakoa with letters on the data pages that summed up to "kindly gently caress off and let me enjoy my queer found family please."
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Mar 18, 2024 20:59
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Maduo posted:I would argue this is exactly how half the X-writers treated Krakoa. Not to say they disengaged with the ethnostate reading entirely but after a certain point lines like X-Factor and New Mutants only engaged with the ruling body of Krakoa with letters on the data pages that summed up to "kindly gently caress off and let me enjoy my queer found family please." Nothing wrong with that. Not every title has to be foot flat on the ethics/politics accelerator.
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Mar 18, 2024 21:37
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I feel like for the first couple years some books were actually kind of interested in exploring the negative aspects that came along with krakoa, or at the least teasing out that there were negative aspects, but that fell out of practice as the x line got cut down and the series of events the remainder had to get involved with every year continued
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Mar 18, 2024 21:48
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site posted:Did you not read the multiple times over multiple posts robochrist explained how they aren't empathizing with orchis I don’t think someone named Robochrist is arguing in good faith against Krakoa.
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Mar 18, 2024 22:22
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site posted:I feel like for the first couple years some books were actually kind of interested in exploring the negative aspects that came along with krakoa, or at the least teasing out that there were negative aspects, but that fell out of practice as the x line got cut down and the series of events the remainder had to get involved with every year continued Hickman's own X-Men comic was like that with Cyclops as the main POV person having conversations with Kurt and Logan and others about things. It's also where we saw the crucible and how a lot of people thought that was pretty hosed up. Krakoa was never going to work forever because a bunch of people had to compromise their beliefs to get it started, including Xavier, and all of those eventually ate away at it.
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Mar 18, 2024 22:34
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Open Marriage Night posted:I don’t think someone named Robochrist is arguing in good faith against Krakoa. if we're at the point of saying "being able to identify the motivation of orchis and its members is empathizing with them" we might as well say that every person who has written an x book since 2019 empathizes with orchis
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Mar 18, 2024 22:38
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site posted:if we're at the point of saying "being able to identify the motivation of orchis and its members is empathizing with them" we might as well say that every person who has written an x book since 2019 empathizes with orchis
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Mar 18, 2024 22:42
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Saying "Krakoa and Orchis are the same thing" is dumb and bad sorry
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Mar 18, 2024 22:47
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I get the feeling you skimmed a lot
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Mar 18, 2024 22:52
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danbanana posted:Here's a Hot Take:
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Mar 19, 2024 00:02
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site posted:if we're at the point of saying "being able to identify the motivation of orchis and its members is empathizing with them" we might as well say that every person who has written an x book since 2019 empathizes with orchis I think the joke was that the baddies are robots and his name suggests he's a robot.
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Mar 19, 2024 00:12
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Conversely if you are a little worried about the Nazi who declared himself your new god and whose group just took over the solar system and said they are in charge now hey.....that's a fair reaction.
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Mar 19, 2024 00:14
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Lord Packinham posted:I’m surprised by how well-liked krakoa is in here. I thought it was an ok idea that far over-stayed it’s welcome and far too many plans within plans. This is like the third time we are getting cyclops, magik, and friends being led by magneto operating out of a bunker rescuing mutants though. bendis and the writers that came after him already did this story ad nassuem. I’d rather they just went all the way and brought back the mansion and the classic status quo instead of doing this again. While it’s true comics don’t change that much X-men has always had major reinventions.its very different today then where it was when Stan Lee created it and even characters like Superman and Batman have been allowed to grow, raise kids, etc.
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Mar 19, 2024 00:47
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Mulva posted:Conversely if you are a little worried about the Nazi who declared himself your new god and whose group just took over the solar system and said they are in charge now hey.....that's a fair reaction. ... Who's a Nazi here? Maybe if you stopped building genocidal robots because you're a bunch of bigoted pieces of poo poo, the minority group you're trying to murder wouldn't take steps like... starting a paramilitary team of suoerpowered teenagers... or saying some mean things about how they're sick of getting murdered. What are we doing here, people?
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Mar 19, 2024 01:09
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Lord Packinham posted:I’m surprised by how well-liked krakoa is in here. I thought it was an ok idea that far over-stayed it’s welcome and far too many plans within plans. We finally got some change and liked it.
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Mar 19, 2024 01:36
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:I mean, wasn't just Magneto. Xavier seems pretty clear here that Orchis' thesis is correct and mutants will inherit the Earth. This is less an issue with this story arc but more in general with this entire line of thinking with mutant books The idea that mutants are the next evolutionary step is weird to me for no shortage of reasons. The number of mutations that are actively detrimental (sometimes to the point of being lethal) to the person who develops them, the fact that there's so little consistency in mutations, the fact that two mutant parents can have a human child, etc, etc Then again maybe it makes sense as we always see the same handful of mutant "leaders" talking about this poo poo, so they're prone to making the same mistakes both from an action and ideaology standpoint. If Krakoa is any kind of metaphor for real life, maybe it's a good display of how you shouldn't surrender the direction of your entire marginalized population to a few powerful unaccountable weirdos.
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Mar 19, 2024 01:36
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danbanana posted:... Who's a Nazi here? Mr. Sinister.
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Mar 19, 2024 02:15
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site posted:if we're at the point of saying "being able to identify the motivation of orchis and its members is empathizing with them" we might as well say that every person who has written an x book since 2019 empathizes with orchis I’m saying Robochrist is biased because he’s a robot. This argument is just an Orchis psy-op.
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Mar 19, 2024 02:20
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Pretty sure the average person doesn't even know who Mr. Sinister is. Orchis certainly doesn't, considering they welcomed Statis into their fold. I know we're all just talking in hypotheticals about fake things relating to fictional characters, but the idea that mutantkind en masse can be the most diplomatic and unaggressive they've ever been, and still be seen as conquering Nazis?...is honestly kind of telling and reflective of real situations, where marginalized groups doing nothing but minding their own business is still viewed as an act of aggression.
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Mar 19, 2024 03:12
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BrianWilly posted:I know we're all just talking in hypotheticals about fake things relating to fictional characters, but the idea that mutantkind en masse can be the most diplomatic and unaggressive they've ever been, and still be seen as conquering Nazis?...is honestly kind of telling and reflective of real situations, where marginalized groups doing nothing but minding their own business is still viewed as an act of aggression. They literally said they were going to rule as gods over humans. Krakoa was never remotely "just minding their own business".
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Mar 19, 2024 03:22
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Look y'all gotta stop trotting that one single Magneto line as their definitive approach to foreign policy because the entire rest of the books make it very immediately evident that Krakoa was one hundred percent more interested in minding its own business than ruling over anyone as gods.
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Mar 19, 2024 03:36
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That wasn't even the Nazi I was thinking of. That is a statement I just made about the public face of the mutant nation. "No I meant a different Nazi.". Like if I had to say "Man you are surprised people are worried about the person who put humans in death camps and experimented on them for his own slave army?", you have to loving guess which one I mean and what time that happened. In this case I'm thinking of Magneto and the mutates he made in the Savage Land. It makes perfect sense people would be disconcerted. You are a loving moron if you aren't. Doesn't mean Orchis is the right response, but no poo poo does it send a bad look when some of the worst loving people to ever live are large and in charge in your ruling elite, as you declare "Human law no longer applies to them.". What exactly do you expect to happen next? It makes for great stories, but it's the stupidest loving foundation for a nation in the history of time. The nation motto was basically "You can't hurt us anymore", tempt fate harder motherfuckers.
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Mar 19, 2024 03:37
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Mulva posted:no poo poo does it send a bad look when some of the worst loving people to ever live are large and in charge in your ruling elite, as you declare "Human law no longer applies to them." 
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Mar 19, 2024 03:42
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BrianWilly posted:Look y'all gotta stop trotting that one single Magneto line as their definitive approach to foreign policy because the entire rest of the books make it very immediately evident that Krakoa was one hundred percent more interested in minding its own business than ruling over anyone as gods. I can't help it if people interpreted the official statement made by one of Krakoa's ruling council at the outset of the whole endeavor as being a reliable indicator of their long-term goals. And yeah, it's not just that statement, it's the explicit endorsement of the idea that mutants are not human, and the insistence that mutants must not be subject to human laws (not that anybody ever really thought about how that was going to work). It's also the view we got all of all the Moira futures that Moira decided were unacceptable, including the ones where nothing bad actually happened to mutants but they stopped being special and lost their group identity because super-powers became hot-swappable.
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Mar 19, 2024 03:44
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