DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

Simply, I am here because of this thread. I have been watching it over one of my partners’ shoulder with some envy—

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

Thanks to everyone who made it through my post without accusing me of being a bad faith actor, a loyalist propagandist, or a supremacist apologist for historical injustices. And please note, I wasn't accusing anyone of endorsing genocide knowingly, but rather I was extending what I believe to be the inevitable outcome if Ulster were dismantled in conflict as many advocating for a realistic solution (unlike my pious dreams) will be forced to articulate - unless they believe the international community will step in to dismember Ulster, which makes your globalist suprastate management solution as fantastic as mine. I know it is suspicious to pop in this thread for my first post here, but I assure you I am sincere. I cannot answer all the objections directly, since this post has been very popular here.

Since ad hominem has come up: as of August 15th, I had been a critic of British military intervention in Northern Ireland for 20 years and a staunch leftist for 10 years. I have feared this violence would come to pass for most of my life, and there was no other way for me to interpret the IRA actions: this is how it begins. To my shame in retrospect, I felt nothing for the Unionists no matter how gruesome the reported crimes. When I turned to many of my “comrades” to talk about the looming catastrophe about to befall Londonderry, I was completely devastated to find many of them cheering on the IRA and specifically NOT because of its impact on Protestant life. It occurred to me then that they were either completely delusional about the possibility of a united Ireland forcibly removing British presence, or they simply don’t mind that thousands of Catholics were about to die as long as Unionists “get what’s coming to them”. Heighten the contradictions, and it will all come out in the wash.

This broke me. I had always advocated for reconciliation in Northern Ireland and assumed good faith on anti-unionists, and I had known many other critics of British policy growing up. But now I saw something else. I was happy to hear the world but especially Americans hearing the voices of Country Tyrone, but I was very much not prepared for the genuine bigotry which accompanied it. Virtually any leftist I talk to about this will either claim the new wave of bigotry does not exist, is robustly justified by the actions of the Unionists, or sometimes both. I have nowhere to elaborate my thoughts without facing extreme social sanction either because I am a pro-violence unionist supremacist or because I’m an IRA-sympathizing self-hating Protestant.

Simply, I am here because of this thread. I have been watching it over one of my partners’ shoulder with some envy—as I saw my former comrades descend into IRA rape denial and arrive at anti-Protestant talking points which more explicitly acknowledge the likely fate of the Unionists if Northern Ireland were destroyed in conflict, it struck me that this thread is a reasonable back and forth considering the stakes of this conflict. I would add that most of the unionist posts even here seem rather low effort, and are insufficiently spiritually engaged with the suffering in Strabane, as they are on most of the internet. Until recently, I was much more comfortable being around critics of British policy than unionists, and I still hate the heartlessness of most unionists I encounter so that I do not want to be part of those spaces—those people have ALWAYS made me wonder if we really would have been better off enduring the Éirí Amach than becoming what we are now.

I cannot help but push back on these thoughts with Protestant pride rather than succumbing to an ideology that would see a third of my people endangered, or would have preferred they were left defenceless after the Cogadh na Saoirse. Both unionism and anti-unionism are loaded with self-hatred, but as with any nationalist project, there is something to be said for believing your people deserve to survive. I do not think the Royal Irish Constabulary did everything right, and I think many of their actions were quite evil. But I know of no state which came together without evil, and the world is not filled with sincere anarchists. I respect the hearts of critics of British policy but I question their understanding of the situation of Protestants in Northern Ireland.

I am seeing people here characterize my position as Ulster loyalism, and I think this is fair. I would note in response that most self-proclaimed unionists I know would call me an IRA apologist because I think the British presence in Northern Ireland is a colonial project, regardless of what my other beliefs are, or take me caring about Catholic life at all as something of a betrayal of the war effort. My position is characteristic of a tendency called Ulster Nationalism: one that considers the work of establishing a secure six counties to be essentially over, with our task now to live in peace with neighbours who we wronged. I try not to shy away from the reasonable critiques of unionism because I did not lose my empathy for the republicans and their struggle for self-determination. Those pointed out my argument can be used for the republicans as well as the unionists, you are right—the point of my post is that there are two sides to this history in a way which cannot be said for any of these other colonial projects. "You can’t both sides a genocide" is a meaningless response when you accuse anyone who supports Protestants maintaining a safe haven in the 1920's of supporting the current conflict in the 2020s, when the timing and vicious character of the establishment of Northern Ireland in 1921 is a direct response to Republic ethnic cleansing in the south.

The maintenance of advocating the destruction of Northern Ireland, while holding the belief in inexorable liberal progress which has somehow proven that the Unionist stance is unnecessary, boggles my mind. Unionism predates the Civil War by a half-century, and sectarianism is predicated on the fall of the just and humane order of UK social/liberal democracy. Putting that aside, we take the case of Canada.

Protestant integration into the British identity is strongest in the case in the Canada, a multicultural settler-colonial entity that certainly deserves to be destroyed without counterargument by the standards of any baseline anti-colonialism. Anyone who attempts to make an analogous argument that the US, Canada, NZ, or Australia may have been thought to prevent "cultural genocide" or to prevent religious persecution on the part of some historical groups is beneath contempt to me - cultural genocide does not exist, and anti-Protestant sentiment is not some kind of spectre haunting every society the way sectarianism is, and there is simply no connection to the land.One look at the historical texts of the Protestant tradition will tell you just how central longing for a safe haven in Ulster has been to my ancestors. These other settler-colonial countries should be dissolved and the land given back to its original inhabitants. This is a long-held position of mine and I do not see any reason to change that.

More importantly, Canada is about to hand the keys to somebody who promises to annihilate multicultural freedoms domestically and embolden hardliners or those aspiring abroad (including key figures in the UK). I did not take a papist Prime Minister seriously as a threat to democracy in 1892 but I do in 2024. Poilievre may use Loyalists but he will dispose of them when he is done, and I view the European right with the same amount of suspicion. Consider the relationship between various interest groups and the political right and you will understand: exploit these divided groups as reactionary footsoldiers by emphasizing common causes, then turn on the core issue without dropping the common cause: Poilievre is a classic figure who might seem to support one side, and will back controversial policies to the hilt if elected, but he will have no problem turning on those who supported him after they serve his purpose. Diaspora Protestants aligning with the domestic right wing in their countries is instrumentally irrational and will likely lead to some sort of marginalization. I have been living in Europe on and off recently, and I can tell you that the Protestant community in Europe is becoming extremely unsettled at what is happening in their polities. To this, I add that these Protestants are much more vulnerable than those in the Canada, and moreover, that the entire world does not offer the standard of safety for this community available in the West.

For those who believe I wishfully made up the self-questioning of the Unionist slide to the right, I encourage you to look into the 100,000+ strong protests that rocked the UK for most of 1978 until something happened that February. The case was decided against the hardliners’ power grab at the beginning of this year with universal indifference. For those of us who imagine that things have a function, consider the function of an unprecedented security failure during this destabilizing protest wave. Even mainstream left English papers had to wonder aloud if key Unionist leaders had orchestrated the attacks directly, rather than the indirect way which was obvious if you know the history behind British intelligence and allegedly republican paramilitaries.

All this to say, I think the test of our multicultural democratic projects are to come. If Canada can can somehow overcome its completely indefensible and unambiguously mass genocidal clearing out of an entirely “new” continent worth of sui generis native to become a land of multicultural peace and tolerance, I do not see why Northern Ireland cannot after displacing historical antagonisms from a territory the size of Ulster. While we assume Northern Ireland is a monolithic culture, its culture has also become multiracial and multicultural among all the types of communities (Protestant, Catholic, and other immigrants) who have settled there. While we throw around “sectarianism”, there are also a number of non-Protestant citizens in Northern Ireland who certainly experience discrimination but are not literal second-class citizens the way some might perceive the treatment of certain communities in other conflict zones.

The usual post-unionist solution to this conflict is to simply admit defeat for a unified Ireland and hope that the Catholic republicans can become full citizens of Northern Ireland like these British Catholics. But after everything is said and done, I do not trust the UK government with the former republicans. I want the UN or a coalition of European states to guarantee the lives of the Catholics the way the United Kingdom has guaranteed the lives of the unionists.

However pious and fantastic these dreams of resolution are (and they are pious powerless fantasies, just like yours), consider the value to the far right that Protestants and Catholics are now domestic enemies in virtually every European (or euro settler) polity and will be easier to use to wipe each other out. Consider the value to the Northern Irish far right that people like me who may have been long-term critics of hardline unionism now see the value in the existence of Northern Ireland right at the moment when they are pulling the trigger on actions that will overshadow their every other. And consider that before the Catholics made the British lion roar, many in Northern Ireland were still alive and countless homes still stood. In some respect one has to pin the blame for the structure of this situation on the UK government in general and specific leaders in particular, but it would be completely impossible without the Catholic riots for which we are all too prepared to excuse them. Please continue to put pressure on your governments to stop supporting policies that enable such heavy handed measures, but if you think embracing a radical version of politics in Northern Ireland is progressive, socialist, or otherwise left-wing, you will be part of movements where you live that make Unionists like myself consider drastic options in the future, and you won’t even know what you’re doing.

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

Thanks to everyone who made it through my post without accusing me of being a bad faith actor, a loyalist propagandist, or a supremacist apologist for historical injustices. And please note, I wasn't accusing anyone of endorsing genocide knowingly, but rather I was extending what I believe to be the inevitable outcome if Ulster were dismantled in conflict as many advocating for a realistic solution (unlike my pious dreams) will be forced to articulate - unless they believe the international community will step in to dismember Ulster, which makes your globalist suprastate management solution as fantastic as mine. I know it is suspicious to pop in this thread for my first post here, but I assure you I am sincere. I cannot answer all the objections directly, since this post has been very popular here.

Since ad hominem has come up: as of August 15th, I had been a critic of British military intervention in Northern Ireland for 20 years and a staunch leftist for 10 years. I have feared this violence would come to pass for most of my life, and there was no other way for me to interpret the IRA actions: this is how it begins. To my shame in retrospect, I felt nothing for the Unionists no matter how gruesome the reported crimes. When I turned to many of my “comrades” to talk about the looming catastrophe about to befall Londonderry, I was completely devastated to find many of them cheering on the IRA and specifically NOT because of its impact on Protestant life. It occurred to me then that they were either completely delusional about the possibility of a united Ireland forcibly removing British presence, or they simply don’t mind that thousands of Catholics were about to die as long as Unionists “get what’s coming to them”. Heighten the contradictions, and it will all come out in the wash.

This broke me. I had always advocated for reconciliation in Northern Ireland and assumed good faith on anti-unionists, and I had known many other critics of British policy growing up. But now I saw something else. I was happy to hear the world but especially Americans hearing the voices of Country Tyrone, but I was very much not prepared for the genuine bigotry which accompanied it. Virtually any leftist I talk to about this will either claim the new wave of bigotry does not exist, is robustly justified by the actions of the Unionists, or sometimes both. I have nowhere to elaborate my thoughts without facing extreme social sanction either because I am a pro-violence unionist supremacist or because I’m an IRA-sympathizing self-hating Protestant.

Simply, I am here because of this thread. I have been watching it over one of my partners’ shoulder with some envy—as I saw my former comrades descend into IRA rape denial and arrive at anti-Protestant talking points which more explicitly acknowledge the likely fate of the Unionists if Northern Ireland were destroyed in conflict, it struck me that this thread is a reasonable back and forth considering the stakes of this conflict. I would add that most of the unionist posts even here seem rather low effort, and are insufficiently spiritually engaged with the suffering in Strabane, as they are on most of the internet. Until recently, I was much more comfortable being around critics of British policy than unionists, and I still hate the heartlessness of most unionists I encounter so that I do not want to be part of those spaces—those people have ALWAYS made me wonder if we really would have been better off enduring the Éirí Amach than becoming what we are now.

I cannot help but push back on these thoughts with Protestant pride rather than succumbing to an ideology that would see a third of my people endangered, or would have preferred they were left defenceless after the Cogadh na Saoirse. Both unionism and anti-unionism are loaded with self-hatred, but as with any nationalist project, there is something to be said for believing your people deserve to survive. I do not think the Royal Irish Constabulary did everything right, and I think many of their actions were quite evil. But I know of no state which came together without evil, and the world is not filled with sincere anarchists. I respect the hearts of critics of British policy but I question their understanding of the situation of Protestants in Northern Ireland.

I am seeing people here characterize my position as Ulster loyalism, and I think this is fair. I would note in response that most self-proclaimed unionists I know would call me an IRA apologist because I think the British presence in Northern Ireland is a colonial project, regardless of what my other beliefs are, or take me caring about Catholic life at all as something of a betrayal of the war effort. My position is characteristic of a tendency called Ulster Nationalism: one that considers the work of establishing a secure six counties to be essentially over, with our task now to live in peace with neighbours who we wronged. I try not to shy away from the reasonable critiques of unionism because I did not lose my empathy for the republicans and their struggle for self-determination. Those pointed out my argument can be used for the republicans as well as the unionists, you are right—the point of my post is that there are two sides to this history in a way which cannot be said for any of these other colonial projects. "You can’t both sides a genocide" is a meaningless response when you accuse anyone who supports Protestants maintaining a safe haven in the 1920's of supporting the current conflict in the 2020s, when the timing and vicious character of the establishment of Northern Ireland in 1921 is a direct response to Republic ethnic cleansing in the south.

The maintenance of advocating the destruction of Northern Ireland, while holding the belief in inexorable liberal progress which has somehow proven that the Unionist stance is unnecessary, boggles my mind. Unionism predates the Civil War by a half-century, and sectarianism is predicated on the fall of the just and humane order of UK social/liberal democracy. Putting that aside, we take the case of Canada.

Protestant integration into the British identity is strongest in the case in the Canada, a multicultural settler-colonial entity that certainly deserves to be destroyed without counterargument by the standards of any baseline anti-colonialism. Anyone who attempts to make an analogous argument that the US, Canada, NZ, or Australia may have been thought to prevent "cultural genocide" or to prevent religious persecution on the part of some historical groups is beneath contempt to me - cultural genocide does not exist, and anti-Protestant sentiment is not some kind of spectre haunting every society the way sectarianism is, and there is simply no connection to the land.One look at the historical texts of the Protestant tradition will tell you just how central longing for a safe haven in Ulster has been to my ancestors. These other settler-colonial countries should be dissolved and the land given back to its original inhabitants. This is a long-held position of mine and I do not see any reason to change that.

More importantly, Canada is about to hand the keys to somebody who promises to annihilate multicultural freedoms domestically and embolden hardliners or those aspiring abroad (including key figures in the UK). I did not take a papist Prime Minister seriously as a threat to democracy in 1892 but I do in 2024. Poilievre may use Loyalists but he will dispose of them when he is done, and I view the European right with the same amount of suspicion. Consider the relationship between various interest groups and the political right and you will understand: exploit these divided groups as reactionary footsoldiers by emphasizing common causes, then turn on the core issue without dropping the common cause: Poilievre is a classic figure who might seem to support one side, and will back controversial policies to the hilt if elected, but he will have no problem turning on those who supported him after they serve his purpose. Diaspora Protestants aligning with the domestic right wing in their countries is instrumentally irrational and will likely lead to some sort of marginalization. I have been living in Europe on and off recently, and I can tell you that the Protestant community in Europe is becoming extremely unsettled at what is happening in their polities. To this, I add that these Protestants are much more vulnerable than those in the Canada, and moreover, that the entire world does not offer the standard of safety for this community available in the West.

For those who believe I wishfully made up the self-questioning of the Unionist slide to the right, I encourage you to look into the 100,000+ strong protests that rocked the UK for most of 1978 until something happened that February. The case was decided against the hardliners’ power grab at the beginning of this year with universal indifference. For those of us who imagine that things have a function, consider the function of an unprecedented security failure during this destabilizing protest wave. Even mainstream left English papers had to wonder aloud if key Unionist leaders had orchestrated the attacks directly, rather than the indirect way which was obvious if you know the history behind British intelligence and allegedly republican paramilitaries.

All this to say, I think the test of our multicultural democratic projects are to come. If Canada can can somehow overcome its completely indefensible and unambiguously mass genocidal clearing out of an entirely “new” continent worth of sui generis native to become a land of multicultural peace and tolerance, I do not see why Northern Ireland cannot after displacing historical antagonisms from a territory the size of Ulster. While we assume Northern Ireland is a monolithic culture, its culture has also become multiracial and multicultural among all the types of communities (Protestant, Catholic, and other immigrants) who have settled there. While we throw around “sectarianism”, there are also a number of non-Protestant citizens in Northern Ireland who certainly experience discrimination but are not literal second-class citizens the way some might perceive the treatment of certain communities in other conflict zones.

The usual post-unionist solution to this conflict is to simply admit defeat for a unified Ireland and hope that the Catholic republicans can become full citizens of Northern Ireland like these British Catholics. But after everything is said and done, I do not trust the UK government with the former republicans. I want the UN or a coalition of European states to guarantee the lives of the Catholics the way the United Kingdom has guaranteed the lives of the unionists.

However pious and fantastic these dreams of resolution are (and they are pious powerless fantasies, just like yours), consider the value to the far right that Protestants and Catholics are now domestic enemies in virtually every European (or euro settler) polity and will be easier to use to wipe each other out. Consider the value to the Northern Irish far right that people like me who may have been long-term critics of hardline unionism now see the value in the existence of Northern Ireland right at the moment when they are pulling the trigger on actions that will overshadow their every other. And consider that before the Catholics made the British lion roar, many in Northern Ireland were still alive and countless homes still stood. In some respect one has to pin the blame for the structure of this situation on the UK government in general and specific leaders in particular, but it would be completely impossible without the Catholic riots for which we are all too prepared to excuse them. Please continue to put pressure on your governments to stop supporting policies that enable such heavy handed measures, but if you think embracing a radical version of politics in Northern Ireland is progressive, socialist, or otherwise left-wing, you will be part of movements where you live that make Unionists like myself consider drastic options in the future, and you won’t even know what you’re doing.

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

I know Arab American groups are encouraging people wear them out of solidarity, I hope people ITT have helped keep Hirbawi, the last Palestinian owned Keffiyeh factory in the West Bank, open by ordering from there.

crepeface posted:

your posting energy is overflowing. truly, im in awe.

quote:

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reportedly told a high-level Knesset meeting that Israel’s international PR suffers because of a lack of personnel who can speak English clearly.

According to quotes from Channel 12 from a closed-door meeting of the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, Netanyahu was asked if Israel’s international hasbara problem was due to a lack of funding.

“It’s not just a lack of money. There simply are no people, you are surrounded by people who can’t put two words together [in English]. We need to find them,” he said.

In response to the reports, Netanyahu’s office says that he “deeply values the work of his team and of the Public Diplomacy Directorate that operates under him, and he said this to the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee.”

uninterrupted posted:

lol I forgot about the obvious israeli state plant casually dropping their poly relationship into their pro-holocaust post

speng31b posted:

No they don't. That's a Ukraine thread special rule. Otherwise syqs are legal

Malloc Voidstar posted:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...her-in-english/
Netanyahu complains Israel’s PR suffers because he’s surrounded by people ‘who can’t put two words together’ in English

Orb Crabmelt posted:

I just watched this and agree with the sentiment that it's nothing new but absolutely infuriating to see it all laid out like this.

Nonsense posted:

Israel is on the path to defeat.

fizziester posted:

Thank you for the clarification, that is very helpful.

PawParole posted:

https://twitter.com/ViktorNaumenk99/status/1764434851837378599

Is this true?

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

Well, you inspired it.



e: and clearly they think they're the same too

Cerebral Bore posted:

what the gently caress does any of this mean?

Zodium posted:

guessing rumint is "rumor intelligence"

Sancho Banana posted:

"After tens of thousands of hours of rigorous, methodical research by Yemen's most brilliant political and scientific minds, the Houthis have admitted defeat in their search for an answer to a question that has eluded them for years. With regards to this news, Ansar Allah's spokesperson made the following comment:

'We have no idea why Americans don't have healthcare. We've tried to figure it out, but the mystery will remain unsolved.'"

Cerebral Bore posted:

do people actually pretend that's a real thing as opposed to a blatant contradiction?

Cerebral Bore posted:

what the gently caress does any of this mean?

FirstnameLastname posted:

do as the rumints do

fizziester posted:

Thank you for the clarification, that is very helpful.

Zodium posted:

guessing rumint is "rumor intelligence"

Zodium posted:

guessing rumint is "rumor intelligence"

speng31b posted:

No they don't. That's a Ukraine thread special rule. Otherwise syqs are legal

HerraS posted:

fizziester posted:

Thank you for the clarification, that is very helpful.

HerraS posted:

Al-Saqr posted:

lol alot of israelis are literally americans and english their biggest recruitment pool is literally americans its not the language problem causing your PR damage its your nazism

I said come in! posted:

this is why I mostly don't care about what happens to Israeli's. American's that move over there are pure loving garbage with nothing redeeming about them. Americans in general are pure loving garbage with nothing redeeming about them. gently caress America and everything about it. I can't wait for my lovely country to collapse.