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I mean I don't know who Amon and Duran are, in the sense that I have no idea what their goals, motivations or personality are beyond going "mwah ha ha ha ha I am very evil and I am going to do very evil things." Like it feels like everything they've got going on is just... pointless nihilistic destruction. Not for any greater goal or even universal domination or anything of that sort. Not to prove all the other Xel'naga(who are now dead anyway) wrong. Just... to destroy things. It really makes it hard to give a gently caress about fighting them. Especially since the game(s) have done a pretty poor job of making me feel like this is a world I want to prevent from being destroyed. I think after the two campaigns I could stomach(I had to tag out after HotS because gently caress me I was annoyed), Abathur(and maybe Stukov? I remember faint positive feelings about Stukov) were the only two characters I would be somewhat disappointed if got annihilated along with the rest of the universe.
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Mar 23, 2024 11:04
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You presumably also didn't genocide billions in order to sabotage Duran, let alone doing so entirely in your alter-ego that was enslaved to Amon's vaguely-defined corruption, for the explicit purpose of opposing Amon's plans. failing to make the player care about the villains is regular bad writing, but failing to make your main character care have any remotely consistent relation to them is on a whole other level
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Mar 23, 2024 11:44
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Torchlighter posted:No, no, that was the Queen of Blades personality. That one disappeared after all in and definitely doesn't exist anymore, so there's no reason to care about the multiple billions of people she killed. At least it's equal opportunity bad writing. SC2 isn't consistent with SC1, but Heart isn't consistent with Wings either so it's fine(?) The thing that sticks out to me most right now, SC1 vs SC2, is that I really get the sense that in SC2 every faction not on screen isn't actually doing anything. Nothing happens if it doesn't happen in a mission. What was Kerrigan's actual motivation and goal during Wings? Nothing except those two times she was on screen, the zerg weren't otherwise doing anything. What are the Protoss who aren't Zeratul up to? Apparently nothing, they are neither fighting Duran or the Zerg. This "golden armada" is just sitting on their thumbs back home. What is Valerian and the Dominion up to now that mission 1 is over? Sitting around passively being targets. What's Matt Horner & co. doing to move the status quo in the sector while Kerrigan is doing some Villain Stuff? *Shrug*. The universe of sc2 is just weirdly static.
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Mar 23, 2024 12:25
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bladededge posted:At least it's equal opportunity bad writing. SC2 isn't consistent with SC1, but Heart isn't consistent with Wings either so it's fine(?) Maybe it would be better served the story if instead of 3 big campaigns, you had each part contain 3 regular campaigns, one for each race. Like (if you try and keep the basic story intact), wings could be Zeratul finding what's going on, Kerrigan assault on the dominion, Raynor trying to save Kerrigan, for example.
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Mar 23, 2024 13:05
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:...did Kerrigan have no idea who Amon, Duran and the hybrid were before this mission, other than Amon being dead and and having been on Zerus? The idea is that, while she does recall bits of information from her days as the Queen Bitch, she doesn't remember everything. Queen Bitch Kerrigan had figured Narud out, but that was among the information lost when the Artifact de-infested her. gohuskies posted:It's interesting how Stukov shifts framing this mission chain from being part of the revenge quest against Mengsk: It's worth noting that this wasn't a complete manipulation; it is still confirmed that Mengsk is in on this Hybrid thing, he's just not in on the "Amon" part. Mengsk just thinks the Hybrid being created here are "special weapons" that will obey his commands. Which, if we don't deal with them here, we probably would find Hybrid on Korhal working together with Mengsk's forces to kill Kerrigan.
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Mar 23, 2024 13:19
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Duran/Narud being evil is not a surprise for Brood War players.
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Mar 23, 2024 13:27
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he's hungry like the flow
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Mar 23, 2024 13:41
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PurpleXVI posted:I mean I don't know who Amon and Duran are, in the sense that I have no idea what their goals, motivations or personality are beyond going "mwah ha ha ha ha I am very evil and I am going to do very evil things." Space Satan, baby! It's honestly pretty wild that Starcraft 1's villains' motivations of "I want to take over the galaxy" are still the most nuanced antagonists they've managed to write.
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Mar 23, 2024 14:47
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Huh, TIL that co-op is region locked.
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Mar 23, 2024 15:03
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PurpleXVI posted:I think after the two campaigns I could stomach(I had to tag out after HotS because gently caress me I was annoyed), Abathur(and maybe Stukov? I remember faint positive feelings about Stukov) were the only two characters I would be somewhat disappointed if got annihilated along with the rest of the universe. Hey now, Swann's a good boy.
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Mar 23, 2024 16:27
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gohuskies posted:It's interesting how Stukov shifts framing this mission chain from being part of the revenge quest against Mengsk: Well, it's a mutual revenge.
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Mar 23, 2024 16:48
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Hey, finally caught up on this thread! Awesome job so far, really enjoying it. This mission isn't too different on Brutal iirc, though the Terran bases are much better fortified, making it much tougher to clear out the one near the start. I've tried kiting the Hybrid into the Terran bases to get them to fight each other, though it's usually more trouble than it's worth. Also happy to hop on the co-op train, it's by far the best part of the game.
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Mar 23, 2024 18:43
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bladededge posted:At least it's equal opportunity bad writing. SC2 isn't consistent with SC1, but Heart isn't consistent with Wings either so it's fine(?) IIRC in wings, they make mention that Kerrigan had been mostly "asleep" until the events of wings began. During wings, I think the impression is supposed to be that Kerrigan's finally begun an assault on the Dominion just as Jimmy starts ramping up his private war with the government. The biggest issue is that that only really showed up in 10 seconds of Donny Vermillion's news casts.
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Mar 23, 2024 19:30
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What on earth is this face?
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Mar 23, 2024 20:00
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koggers
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Mar 23, 2024 20:08
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Staltran posted:What on earth is this face? 
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Mar 23, 2024 20:09
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You could argue that it'd already happened in Wings, but this is really where the hybrid start falling apart as a credible threat, because they're just chumps. We're supposed to view them as this terrifying, universe-destroying horror, and their creator spends the whole mission smugging off about how unstoppable they are, and then they sit there and get hacked to bits by a smattering of zerglings and roaches. They're tough as individual units, sure, but Starcraft is a game about armies; if you want the player to respect something, it can't fold like wet cardboard when faced with basic macro.
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Mar 23, 2024 20:18
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Hybrids should be "boss units" like pack leaders or Archangel.
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Mar 23, 2024 22:00
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megane posted:You could argue that it'd already happened in Wings, but this is really where the hybrid start falling apart as a credible threat, because they're just chumps. We're supposed to view them as this terrifying, universe-destroying horror, and their creator spends the whole mission smugging off about how unstoppable they are, and then they sit there and get hacked to bits by a smattering of zerglings and roaches. They're tough as individual units, sure, but Starcraft is a game about armies; if you want the player to respect something, it can't fold like wet cardboard when faced with basic macro. They could have done much better by having the Hybrids actually neutralise Kerrigan while they're active. Even if they still go down like chumps in reality, at least it would sell the fact that they're an existential threat to the protagonist, and show it in gameplay by having them take away your most powerful weapon. Could even add a bit of dialogue saying that Kerrigan needs some of the quasi-allies she's assembled to help command the Swarm while she's under psychic attack, which would make all of the stuff we've done to gather them a bit more meaningful too.
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Mar 23, 2024 22:01
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Tenebrais posted:They could have done much better by having the Hybrids actually neutralise Kerrigan while they're active. Even if they still go down like chumps in reality, at least it would sell the fact that they're an existential threat to the protagonist, and show it in gameplay by having them take away your most powerful weapon. Minor spoiler from the next mission:  probably wouldn’t have been on board for having two missions in a row where you don’t get to play with your ultimate hero unit
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Mar 23, 2024 22:04
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Staltran posted:What on earth is this face? For some reason, this calls to mind Donkey Kong 64's faces. I have trouble placing why.
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Mar 23, 2024 22:19
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One thing perplexes me: in the WoL mission "The Moebius factor", Kerrigan says "I've seen through your Dr. Narud's pathetic charade, I know what the artifacts really are, and I won' When I heard this sentence, it convinced me that Kerrigan knew the truth about Duran/Nadur, but in fact she knew nothing aboiut him. Was it a red herring or another miscommunication between the developing theam?
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Mar 23, 2024 22:24
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Guy Fawkes posted:One thing perplexes me: in the WoL mission "The Moebius factor", Kerrigan says "I've seen through your Dr. Narud's pathetic charade, I know what the artifacts really are, and I won' It's been repeatedly established through this campaign that Kerrigan only remembers some details of her time as The Queen Bitch. Evidently, her knowledge of Narud and what the Artifacts really are was among that which was lost.
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Mar 23, 2024 22:25
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I really like kiting the hybrids into Terrans in this mission. On harder difficulties (maybe just Brutal?) Terrans chump them, making the idea of hybrids being a threat even funnier.
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Mar 23, 2024 22:52
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BlazetheInferno posted:It's been repeatedly established through this campaign that Kerrigan only remembers some details of her time as The Queen Bitch. Evidently, her knowledge of Narud and what the Artifacts really are was among that which was lost. yeah but that line was an explicit act of rebellion against her Queen of Blades programming which you'd think was a detail she'd remember, at the very least by the time someone explains the Duran/Narud connection to her face
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Mar 23, 2024 22:58
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Intermission 12  Narud's been trying to resurrect his master for millennia. Excuse me? Unless we stop him.  It's easy to see that the station is built into some kind of Xel'naga thing now. >Talk to Stukov.    You told me an ancient xel'naga artifact was used to make you human again. But all the power you wielded as the Queen of Blades... where did it go after your transformation? You mean... there might have been hybrid nearby who gathered it? And... used it to... oh no. If Narud used the xel'naga artifact in that way... he may already have enough energy to resurrect Amon.I want you to keep this in mind for the next 10 seconds or so. >Talk to Izsha.    Protoss, my queen. In great numbers. Yes, I sense them now. Tal'darim.Here's the first major retcon the Tal'darim get to make them an actual faction rather than being a generic batch of protoss for you to beat up in Wings: they're now  cultists that worship Amon. It also has the side effect of making what they did in Wings completely incomprehensible. So Narud needs Kerrigan to get de-zerged so he gets enough juice to revive Amon, so he points Jim at the artifact fragments to get the job done. The artifact fragments that are mostly guarded by... the Tal'darim. The same Tal'darim that are now willing servants of Amon and would probably like to see their god resurrected too. Instead they all give their lives to try and stop Raynor from getting the artifact and potentially ruining the plan to revive Amon. They worship a dead god? That make them even more dangerous.Now, this does get a quick explanation in Legacy. >Talk to Zagara.  Said explanation is, and I am not exaggerating in the slightest here, 'the Tal'darim Executor in charge of the artifact fragments was so blitzed off his rear end on terrazine that he completely forgot what his job was.'  Tell me of it. It's like... nothing I've faced before. But you destroyed the Ancient One. You captured the power of all Zerus. And I gotta say, if your justification for inconsistent characterization is to literally blame it on drugs several years after the fact, you may just be a bad writer! >Talk to Dehaka.  Essence count: 70 Oh thank god, we actually haven't had any essence in a hot minute.  Essence count: 71  That one serves a master who will devour all essence.Essence count: 72 You're talking about Amon? I... think he is dead. And I am going to make sure he stays that way. If that one lives, all essence will be collected. Change will stop. I will fight.Essence count: 73 >Talk to Abathur.  Terrans with strong knowledge of essence manipulation? Implausible.Essence count: 74  Kerrigan's levels.  Time to make Mutalisks even better!    Essence count: 75      Essence count: 76   Mutalisks pop out of one of the towers we saw during Shatter the Sky.  Essence count: 77 The only thing that can shoot back are those two Mutas.  They have a bad time.    Essence count: 78  The Mutas dive back into the tower.  Then respawn.  When I can't just steal them from the enemy, Brood Lords are expensive. That's 250/250/4 a head!     A second batch of Mutas are dropped down, but the enemy has air units so don't morph these into more Brood Lords.   We're more than familiar with Brood Lords at this point, courtesy of the Queen of Blades volunteering to be target practice back on Char.             Jorium useful for experimentation. Enhances psionic potential. Must acquire.  Essence count: 79      The Viper in Heart does the Infestor thing of taking an existing zerg caster and making them buff as hell. Abduct gets a cost buff, with the energy cost being cut from 75 to 25. They also get an anti-air attack, which will always get the anti-Armored bonus thanks to only fighting terran and protoss from here on out, but I think they only got that because we never actually get the Corruptor here.   Abducting allied units over gaps... exists? I guess?  The path is littered with Siege Tanks on the high ground that I have to Abduct to drag them down. This one got dragged earlier.  Abduct is a fairly potent tool against terran, letting me yoink Siege Tanks out of their back line and into my army.   Up ahead is a Bunker, which enables the Viper's second ability. In skirmish, Vipers have Blinding Cloud. It cuts the attack range of all ground units in the area and costs 100 energy.  In Heart, it gets upgraded to Disabling Cloud, which completely stops all enemies from attacking.  And unlike the Defiler's Dark Swarm which would happily protect any enemy units that managed to get under it, Disabling Cloud only affects enemies.  A few more Aberrations get dropped in.   Oh, and they also get Consumption.   They put a few Wraiths in to justify that new air attack.   Must prepare mutalisk morph. Returning to evolution pit.  Essence count: 80 Another fairly even pick, just because Vipers run into the ever-present Heart issue of spellcasters fighting with Kerrigan over micro time. The Brood Lord hits like a truck, and leaves behind Broodlings to deal some extra damage and draw aggro from the rest of your army, but they're also slow as hell.  Essence count: 81 While Vipers completely shut down a lot of what terrans have available if you can swing the APM.  But there's also a valid argument that what you pick here doesn't really matter because Mutalisks are just that good on their own.  And now for the dramatic confrontation with Narud.  He waits for you in the bowels of this place. One of you will die. Make sure it's that son of a bitch.Next time, on Heart of the Swarm! BisbyWorl fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Mar 24, 2024 |
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Mar 24, 2024 03:30
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Time for everyone's favorite organic bulldozer!
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Mar 24, 2024 03:41
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Oh man, that's the good stuff. Lots more essence here after a lull recently. Yeahhhh...BisbyWorl posted:
Also, hey Stukov, you may be in a terribly stupid game now but you're alright.
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Mar 24, 2024 03:42
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disposablewords posted:Also, hey Stukov, you may be in a terribly stupid game now but you're alright. I think that's why I end up liking him. His story isn't overwrought by blizzard's attempts at 'lore' and 'corruption'. It's just, "hey, they guy you're fighting hosed me up bad. Please Kill he rear end. I'll help."
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Mar 24, 2024 03:56
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I missed Sexy Alexei.
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Mar 24, 2024 04:09
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Now, with that little tidbit about deinfesting Kerrigan in mind, we are almost at a critical point that I personally think MIGHT help with one of the worst moments in Wings of Liberty. At the very least its a headcanon I have that SEEMS to make some sense, your mileage may vary.
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Mar 24, 2024 04:24
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BisbyWorl posted:And I gotta say, if your justification for inconsistent characterization is to literally blame it on drugs several years after the fact, you may just be a bad writer! Especially when there's a perfectly good (hell, an even better) explanation that also gets bought up in the next expansion.
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Mar 24, 2024 04:43
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To be fair, at this point I feel "they got high and did stupid poo poo" is an almost refreshing bit of writing from Blizzard. No one's getting corrupted, no one's being manipulated by a hidden agency, there's no prophecy, just getting blazed to all gently caress.
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Mar 24, 2024 11:04
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BisbyWorl posted:Intermission 12 BisbyWorl posted:>Talk to Stukov. Apparently now we know that dezerging and rezerging Kerrigan actually had an effect. All her psionic energy was hoovered up by the hybrids in order to revive Amon! Which is why Kerrigan was completely powerless after being dezerged - all her psionic energy was absorbed and stolen by some hybrids. Also rezerging her didn't give her back her powers - after all it was no longer there but instead had been gathered by the hybrids. Oh wait? She did keep her powers and regained them? So what psionic energy did the hybrids steal? 
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Mar 24, 2024 11:51
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DTurtle posted:Haven't they only been fighting for like three years or so? Psionic energy has always been untethered from individuals.Most of the protoss buildings run off 'psionic energy', they're the principle component of psi shields, and Kerrigan as a human ghost has always been psionic. Her powers weren't because she was a zerg. The Zerg specifically are distinctly almost non-psionic, highly limited to communication and control by the overmind, relayed through cerebrates and broodmothers and overlords. Hoovering up psionic energy seems to be something unique to the hybrids, who aren't about 'essence'. As for what happened to her power, the artifact took it, and if they handed the artifact over to moebius controlled by Dr. Narud...
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Mar 24, 2024 12:44
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BisbyWorl posted:Said explanation is, and I am not exaggerating in the slightest here, 'the Tal'darim Executor in charge of the artifact fragments was so
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Mar 24, 2024 13:39
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Torchlighter posted:Psionic energy has always been untethered from individuals.Most of the protoss buildings run off 'psionic energy', they're the principle component of psi shields, and Kerrigan as a human ghost has always been psionic. Her powers weren't because she was a zerg. So that means that Kerrigan had more psionic energy than the entire Protoss race, otherwise "Narud" could have used that to revive Amon. However: quote:As for what happened to her power, the artifact took it, and if they handed the artifact over to moebius controlled by Dr. Narud...
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Mar 24, 2024 14:19
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DTurtle posted:If they took Kerrigans power, why does she still have power? It was taken. Space Mana regenerates over time.
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Mar 24, 2024 14:37
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DTurtle posted:So that means that Kerrigan had more psionic energy than the entire Protoss race, otherwise "Narud" could have used that to revive Amon. Seems a little harder to stick an entire race into a tube to siphon than a single person, but yes, it is canonical that Kerrigan is a stronger psionically than any protoss. For reference, the terran psionic measurement scale goes from 1-10 and presumably is also used to measure what protoss they encounter. When Kerrigan entered the Ghost program, she was so powerful she redefined 10 on that scale. The Queen of Blades was a class 12. An unprecedented amount of psionic energy by raw output, siphoned into the artifact, which narud had access to. And again, Kerrigans powers are hers. She never lost them, otherwise she wouldn't be able to control the Zerg at all. What she lost was the sheer scale, something that was part of the Queen of Blades... something like her 'essence'. Some part of the queen of blades supercharged her psionic abilities and fed her power, dezerging broke that loop, leaving her where we found her at the start of the game.
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Mar 24, 2024 15:04
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bladededge posted:The thing that sticks out to me most right now, SC1 vs SC2, is that I really get the sense that in SC2 every faction not on screen isn't actually doing anything. Nothing happens if it doesn't happen in a mission. this is the same as SC1 though. in SC1 the Dominion disappears early in Act 2 to only reappear in Brood War's UED campaign. Kerrigan patiently sits out the invasion of Aiur. the protoss avoid getting involved in most of the game unless forced to participate, with the notable exception of Tassadar - though their faction motivation per the manual is explicitly "we want to do nothing" in Wings Kerrigan invades only after the Dominion and Moebius start discovering and excavating artifacts. her goal is to destroy the artifacts; her motivation is she doesn't want to be dezerged. Valerian and Horner will be seen shortly. Legacy of the Void invents an explanation for what the protoss are doing in SC2, but also see previous point about protoss lack of motivation in general Starcraft has never really been "political" - characters are moved by what the plot requires of them, not by internal motives
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