War in Ukraine CE: The Golf War

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > War in Ukraine CE: The Golf War

(Thread IKs: fatherboxx)

Kchama: Jul 25, 2007

Jamsque posted:

I don't buy this. Starlink is a service, part of setting up an individual station has to be entering some sort of credentials associated with an account that is allowed to access the service, right? Between accounts and geolocation data and a little supply chain investigation and getting a list of MAC addresses from the Ukranian armed forces I feel like this is a very solvable problem for Starlink, if they had any interest in solving it.

Yeah. If Russian-owned Starlinks work just fine in Russia, but Ukrainian-owned Starlink doesn't, then the geofence is clearly able to tell the difference between the owners.

It seems weird to insist that Starlink can't tell who owns what Starlink when it's a subscription-based service. Like maybe captured ones, sure. But the ones Russia have don't seem to be captured Ukrainian devices.

# ? Mar 26, 2024 10:59

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 04:06

Staluigi: Jun 22, 2021

wrong thread sorry

# ? Mar 26, 2024 11:00

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

It would be trivially easy to disable all Starlink terminals that Ukraine says are not theirs. In fact, Musk claims they are already doing that, the only problem is they try to add them to the block list instead of maintaining a comprehensive allow list. And, of course, there is a possibility that Russia came up with a way to spoof the location/identity of their devices, which, knowing Musk's penchant for loving with the code he doesn't understand, I wouldn't be surprised if their account management system had glaring holes like that.

# ? Mar 26, 2024 13:00

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

In this quote from CNN, you get some weigh in not just from Starlink, but from internet analysits out of Ukraine. The anlyst acknowledges that if two starlinks were brought in from Poland, for example, and it ends up that one of them is being used by Ukrainian forces and the other is being used by Russian forces inside of Ukraine, that can be a challenge to identify.

quote:

�Musk is a big child, so it�s important to talk to him and don�t offend him here because he might make some quick decisions that might not be very good for everyone,� said Oleg Kutkov, a Kyiv-based internet analyst. He said Starlink should be able to restrict access to Russian-held terminals, but their purchase through third countries by Russian crowdfunders might complicate the task.

�The problem is to identify the actual owner of the account. It might be that in one location there are two terminals both (bought) from Poland, and one is working for (the) Ukrainian side and one for the Russian side. And SpaceX just don�t know who they should block,� he said.

In a bid to crack down on Russian Starlink use in occupied areas, Ukraine has sought to impose new legal conditions on satellite communications like Starlink terminals, creating a �whitelist� of registered devices authorised for use by Kyiv. SpaceX, Starlink�s owner, has sought Pentagon advice, according to a person familiar with the matter, on how to deal with the challenge of both satisfying Kyiv�s wishes that Starlink be accessible to Ukrainian forces across all Ukrainian territory, yet also denying Russian forces the service in front-line areas where opposing sides are often so close it is hard to determine the user of each terminal.

The behind-the-scenes diplomacy has been extremely delicate, according to a second source familiar with those discussions. Ukrainian officials for their part have in recent days quietly communicated with both SpaceX representatives and US officials about the importance of implementing the whitelist system of authorized terminals.

Even with the Starlink devices that are firmly in the Ukrainian military�s control, there is a concern among Ukrainian officials that Russians may hijack their communications or hack them. Ukraine�s SBU intelligence service claimed last year that Russian military hackers were trying to steal battlefield communications sent from Ukrainian soldiers� mobile devices to Starlink terminals.

A Pentagon spokesman, Jeff Jurgensen, referred questions to the Ukrainian government, saying: �While we�re aware of the reporting on this issue, and we�d expect Russia may attempt to leverage any technology that might give them an operational advantage against Ukraine, we have no additional details or information to provide.�

In February, Musk responded to Ukrainian claims the Russians were using Starlink by stating that his company did not do business with the Russian government, and that the system would not work in Russia.

But Starlink was unclear if the technology might work in Russian-occupied areas of Ukraine.

�If SpaceX obtains knowledge that a Starlink terminal is being used by a sanctioned or unauthorized party, we investigate the claim and take actions to deactivate the terminal if confirmed,� the company said then in a statement.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/25/europe/ukraine-starlink-drones-russia-intl-cmd/index.html

# ? Mar 26, 2024 13:19

Telsa Cola: Aug 19, 2011; No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface

spankmeister posted:

That's impossible because they got them from all kinds of different sources. Donations from Starlink in the early days of the invasion, DoD supplied, private donations, commercially purchased by the Ukrainian military, etc. They do not have a complete list.

Pretty much any wireless or broadcasting device has a unique identifier associated with it and hard printed onto it that the manufacturer keeps record of. Ukraine could simply just have someone look at each device and compile a list.

# ? Mar 26, 2024 13:26

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Telsa Cola posted:

Pretty much any wireless or broadcasting device has a unique identifier associated with it and hard printed onto it that the manufacturer keeps record of. Ukraine could simply just have someone look at each device and compile a list.

Read the article above. That is theoretically possible, and it is what Ukraine is looking to do long-term. But you also have starlink terminals that are being used by Ukrainian combat or civil aid services that were brought in with private donations. It's not like every single starlink out there was bought by the Ukrainian government or contracted via the DOD or via the EU. They came from a wide variety of sources, including Ukrainian non-governmental organizations and private fundraising.

The estimate is that there are tens of thousands of starlink terminals inside Ukraine. It's not as easy as calling ten guys and having them check the serial number on their routers.

# ? Mar 26, 2024 13:31

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

It's official now. Bortnikov and Patrushev directly blame Ukraine for the Crocus terrorist attack. And, of course, America and the UK.

# ? Mar 26, 2024 13:51

Dick Ripple: May 19, 2021

Well, according to Trump both Obama and Hillary are founding members of ISIS.

# ? Mar 26, 2024 13:54

Fidelitious: Apr 17, 2018; MY BIRTH CRY WILL BE THE SOUND OF EVERY WALLET ON THIS PLANET OPENING IN UNISON.

I have to agree that I feel there's some bit that I'm missing on the Starlink stuff.

Like was mentioned, it's a subscription service with authentication. It's not like you just buy a Starlink, turn it on, and you've got network. They must know what account is logged in to each terminal right?
Are terminals being stolen? Credentials hijacked? Identities being faked?

# ? Mar 26, 2024 14:14

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

Oh man, as expected, Lukashenko is desperately trying to insert himself into the narrative.

quote:

They [terrorists] could not go to Belarus. Their handlers (we have suspicions about some of them, I'll call Putin, I'll tell my suspicions) - they realised that they could not go into Belarus. Because in the first minutes, as in Russia, a part of the region went to a heightened security regime, so did we.

So there's no way they could have entered Belarus. They saw that. So they turned away and went to the section of the Ukrainian-Russian border.

And of course it doesn't align at all with what Russia claimed about a 'window' prepared in advance for them at the Russian-Ukrainian border.

# ? Mar 26, 2024 14:23

karthun: Nov 16, 2006; I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!

Fidelitious posted:

I have to agree that I feel there's some bit that I'm missing on the Starlink stuff.

Like was mentioned, it's a subscription service with authentication. It's not like you just buy a Starlink, turn it on, and you've got network. They must know what account is logged in to each terminal right?
Are terminals being stolen? Credentials hijacked? Identities being faked?

Terminals are being bought in the EU and shipped into Russia. The subscription is being paid by the European proxy. Starlink's accounting system is such poo poo that they can't tell if the system is in a different location than the billing address or even if the unit has recently moved. There is nothing tiring it down to a geographic area and if it can authenticate to any starlink satellite then you will get internet.

# ? Mar 26, 2024 14:23

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009

Put the proxy in jail. Here, problem solved.

# ? Mar 26, 2024 14:24

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

OddObserver posted:

Put the proxy in jail. Here, problem solved.

Identify with certainty that the proxy in the EU is paying for a Starlink being used by Russian forces. Ensure that it isn't a proxy doing so for a Ukrainian GRU operation. Also ensure it isn't just an EU company which happens to have operations in a bunch of countries, and one employee stole one and sent it to their cousin in Kaliningrad. If you get this wrong, hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers may die.

You are oversimplifying a complex problem.

# ? Mar 26, 2024 14:34

bird food bathtub: Aug 9, 2003; College Slice

We know they can do geofencing. They did it a lot in the recent past. Geofence the entire front line on both sides. Lock it all down, put in an implicit deny on everything not specifically allow-listed in the geofenced zone. Ukraine gives a list of the terminals they're using. Done, only Ukraine can use Starlink terminals on this military front. This is not some impossibly high tech super science nobody can figure out, firewalls and routers have been doing this for decades.

Musk can quit his half-baked bullshit lie objection to "supplying intel", he's just being a Nazi-simping fuckstick.

# ? Mar 26, 2024 14:40

D-Pad: Jun 28, 2006

Nenonen posted:

How does Starlink know where the lines are? When lines move how do you update them in real time? How do Ukrainians use drones over Russian held area?

Boris Galerkin posted:

I mean, have you thought about what you're saying?

Where are the Ukrainians using Starlinks? Inside Ukraine. Where are the Russians using Starlinks? Also inside Ukraine. Those earlier stories you read IIRC were about Starlinks being disabled over "Russian controlled" territory within Ukrainian borders. The Ukrainians were complaining IIRC because they couldn't fly their drones over these areas.

So how do you disable them from working in Ukraine for the Russians, while enabling them to still work for the Ukrainians?

They could do this, but then they are effectively joining the war by being an intelligence service.

Yeah this.

I think you both are way over complicating this. Starlink has two methods available to them: geofencing and whitelist/blacklists. Neither method would be perfect, but they'd get the highest accuracy using both. They would need to coordinate with the Ukrainian government for the best accuracy but it isn't some herculean impossible task. Them "joining the war by being an intelligence service" is a bit hyperbolic and moot anyway because they are already interfering at that level:

https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-blocked-ukraine-starlink-access-crimea-russia-war-putin-2023-9

quote:

In July, The New York Times, citing "two people familiar with the discussions," reported that Musk had personally denied a Ukrainian request to allow Starlink to be used for a maritime drone attack near Crimea, which Russia illegally annexed in 2014. Ukraine has carried out multiple such attacks using remotely operated vessels loaded with explosives to ram into Russian ships. According to Isaacson, Musk himself ordered Starlink engineers to deactivate the system along the coast of Crimea, thwarting a Ukrainian drone attack on the Russian fleet (the drones "lost connectivity and washed ashore"). He then rejected a direct appeal from a top Ukrainian official to enable the system for future such attacks, per Isaacson.

The fact we are letting an American company with a large part of its business in the defense industry materially support Russia and actively harm the military operations of an ally is ridiculous. If you want to argue that providing Ukraine the coordinates of Starlink terminals on the Russian side so they can bomb them is a step too far then yeah I think that is a perfectly valid argument to put forth but requiring them to make sure Ukraine's terminals work and Russia's don't seems like the bare minimum especially considering giving Russia terminals in the first place is against the law. We've already discussed why they can't completely prevent Russia from getting them (although they can and should be putting more effort into preventing it) but that doesn't mean they get to wipe their hands of it once they are in Russian hands when they've already proven they have the ability to geofence and cut off individual terminals.

As far as drones it's only going to affect the boats as afaik nobody is putting a big rear end Starlink terminal on the back of aerial drones. It would be trivial for Ukraine to give Starlink the identifiers of any terminals they are going to put on the boat drones so they can be whitelisted.

This:

bird food bathtub posted:

We know they can do geofencing. They did it a lot in the recent past. Geofence the entire front line on both sides. Lock it all down, put in an implicit deny on everything not specifically allow-listed in the geofenced zone. Ukraine gives a list of the terminals they're using. Done, only Ukraine can use Starlink terminals on this military front. This is not some impossibly high tech super science nobody can figure out, firewalls and routers have been doing this for decades.

Musk can quit his half-baked bullshit lie objection to "supplying intel", he's just being a Nazi-simping fuckstick.

# ? Mar 26, 2024 16:04

EasilyConfused: Nov 21, 2009; one strong toad

Ynglaur posted:

Identify with certainty that the proxy in the EU is paying for a Starlink being used by Russian forces. Ensure that it isn't a proxy doing so for a Ukrainian GRU operation. Also ensure it isn't just an EU company which happens to have operations in a bunch of countries, and one employee stole one and sent it to their cousin in Kaliningrad. If you get this wrong, hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers may die.

You are oversimplifying a complex problem.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > War in Ukraine CE: You are oversimplifying a complex problem

# ? Mar 26, 2024 18:53

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

https://twitter.com/SimonOstrovsky/status/1772623693501419567?t=aIs7ovguSad58AiTQYyS6Q&s=19

(Not actually ordering, just discussing the Suvalki corridor battle plan)

# ? Mar 26, 2024 19:04

Orthanc6: Nov 4, 2009

Step 1: Invade Poland

Step 2: Die I guess

# ? Mar 26, 2024 19:13

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009

Is that a dog or some sort of a sheep?

# ? Mar 26, 2024 19:14

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

OddObserver posted:

Is that a dog or some sort of a sheep?

No it's the fraudulent president of Belarus

# ? Mar 26, 2024 19:18

Duodecimal: Dec 28, 2012; Still stupid

How dare you insult Gurpgork.

# ? Mar 26, 2024 19:22

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

OddObserver posted:

Is that a dog or some sort of a sheep?

It's a spitz. After the 2020 protests, Lukashenko's press team attempted to work on his image a bit, and now, because his bastard son is not a cute child anymore, he takes the cute dog everywhere instead.

# ? Mar 26, 2024 19:35

Flavahbeast: Jul 21, 2001

fatherboxx posted:

https://twitter.com/SimonOstrovsky/status/1772623693501419567?t=aIs7ovguSad58AiTQYyS6Q&s=19

(Not actually ordering, just discussing the Suvalki corridor battle plan)

that dog is really fluffy, rare lukasenko win

# ? Mar 26, 2024 20:50

AtomikKrab: Jul 17, 2010; Keep on GOP rolling rolling rolling rolling.

At least luka can into dog, Pumrt can't even do that part.

# ? Mar 26, 2024 21:58

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

Just saw this in the Guardian live blog:

quote:

Nato 'considering shooting down Russian missiles that approach its borders' - Polish deputy foreign minister

Nato is considering shooting down Russian missiles that stray too close to its borders, Poland�s deputy foreign minister, Andrzej Szejna, has told Polish media outlet RMF24.

Szejna said that �(Russia) knew that if the missile moved further into Poland, it would be shot down. There would be a counterattack.�

�Various concepts are being analysed within Nato, including for such missiles to be shot down when they are very close to the Nato border,� he added, noting that this would need Ukrainian approval if it were to happen.

The comments come after Poland�s armed forces said that Russia violated Poland�s airspace at 4:23am (0323 GMT) on Sunday morning with a cruise missile launched at targets in western Ukraine. Poland is a Nato member.

Russia�s ambassador to Poland, Sergei Andreyev, was summoned to the foreign ministry in Warsaw in connection to the incident, but did not turn up yesterday. He told state-run RIA Novosti that this was because the Polish side did not provide evidence of any airspace violation.

There have been other reported violations of Polish territory since Russia launched its full-scale invasion of Ukraine two years ago.

According to the general staff of the Polish armed forces, a Russian missile entered the airspace of the Nato member at the end of December.

In April 2023, a military object was found in a forest close to the village of Zamość near the northern city of Bydgoszcz. It was later reported to be a Russian missile.

In November 2022, a stray Ukrainian missile struck the Polish village of Przewod�w in the south, killing two people and raising fears at the time of the war in Ukraine spilling over the border.

# ? Mar 27, 2024 00:50

Kchama: Jul 25, 2007

Ynglaur posted:

Identify with certainty that the proxy in the EU is paying for a Starlink being used by Russian forces. Ensure that it isn't a proxy doing so for a Ukrainian GRU operation. Also ensure it isn't just an EU company which happens to have operations in a bunch of countries, and one employee stole one and sent it to their cousin in Kaliningrad. If you get this wrong, hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers may die.

You are oversimplifying a complex problem.

You were responding to a joke post.

# ? Mar 27, 2024 02:09

Morrow: Oct 31, 2010

Inching closer and closer to that no fly zone.

# ? Mar 27, 2024 02:09

Nitrox: Jul 5, 2002

I wonder how many Russian military planes are flying through Turkish airspace, especially shortly after they shot one of them down in 2015.

Not sure why shutting down Russian missiles above Poland is such a controversial topic.

# ? Mar 27, 2024 04:38

The Artificial Kid: Feb 22, 2002; Plibble

OddObserver posted:

This is a pretty ironic thread to praise NYT's history in....(given they never really accounted for being Stalin's mouthpiece on Holodomor).

Nor have the explained what the absolute heck they thought were doing invading England in 1066.

The Artificial Kid fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Mar 27, 2024

# ? Mar 27, 2024 05:01

Dick Ripple: May 19, 2021

Nitrox posted:

I wonder how many Russian military planes are flying through Turkish airspace, especially shortly after they shot one of them down in 2015.

Not sure why shutting down Russian missiles above Poland is such a controversial topic.

The article mentions ' very close to the NATO border'. Russia has no grounds to complain when their missiles get shot down over NATO territory, but if that happens over Belarus... Over Ukrainian territory that would take a level of coordination between NATO and Ukraine that I do not think exists for air defence.

# ? Mar 27, 2024 07:06

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

There's also the issue with high velocity rockets flying near a border that when go pop, they don't stop like hitting a wall. Like when those two Polish farm workers learned when a missile piece landed next to them.

# ? Mar 27, 2024 08:16

DTurtle: Apr 10, 2011

Nitrox posted:

I wonder how many Russian military planes are flying through Turkish airspace, especially shortly after they shot one of them down in 2015.

Not sure why shutting down Russian missiles above Poland is such a controversial topic.

The current policy is to wait until a missile crosses into Polish air space and only potentially shoot it down if it strays too far. If it quickly leaves again (into Ukraine) then a protest is filed to and ignored by Russia.

The new policy they are thinking about is to preemptively shoot down missiles before they enter into or get close to Polish air space.

It would be a massive difference in policy and could lead to NATO shooting down Russian missiles for the first time in this conflict.

# ? Mar 27, 2024 08:49

Wibla: Feb 16, 2011

Gotta let our patriot crews in on the fun, they get bored you know...

# ? Mar 27, 2024 12:30

mrfart: May 26, 2004; Dear diary, today I
became a captain.

Flavahbeast posted:

that dog is really fluffy, rare lukasenko win

He was probably worried it didn't look manly enough, so an aid told him it's actually a small bear.

# ? Mar 27, 2024 13:45

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Yes, Luka only takes the manliest animal pics

# ? Mar 27, 2024 13:54

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

mrfart posted:

He was probably worried it didn't look manly enough, so an aid told him it's actually a small bear.

The dog's name is Umka, after a polar bear cub from an old Soviet cartoon.

# ? Mar 27, 2024 14:09

Nuclear Tourist: Apr 7, 2005

steinrokkan posted:

Yes, Luka only takes the manliest animal pics

That's a sick boombox, I wonder if he likes to blast gopnik hardbass while selling out his country to Russia.

# ? Mar 27, 2024 14:34

Antigravitas: Dec 8, 2019; Die Rettung fuer die Landwirte:

Nuclear Tourist posted:

That's a sick boombox, I wonder if he likes to blast gopnik hardbass while selling out his country to Russia.

So basically like this?

# ? Mar 27, 2024 14:48

notwithoutmyanus: Mar 17, 2009

Antigravitas posted:

So basically like this?

more like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVj0ZTS4WF4

# ? Mar 27, 2024 15:04

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 04:06

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

You think Lukashenko is loyal to Russia? Explain this video of him dancing and kissing with the most prominent gay banderite.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5u9AL3L8UI

# ? Mar 27, 2024 15:24

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