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I love my swashbuckler rogue. Not really optimized, though. I took a level in fighter for the proficiencies and for the Two Weapon fighting style. I like the way the character plays and feels, but the Paladin in the party does a lot more damage.
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Mar 31, 2024 01:20
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swashbuckler rogue is badass. i wish the battlemaster fighter in my dumb guys party had picked that instead, he would probably be accidentally op
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Mar 31, 2024 01:46
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scary ghost dog posted:swashbuckler rogue is badass. i wish the battlemaster fighter in my dumb guys party had picked that instead, he would probably be accidentally op They're a pretty good multi class !
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Mar 31, 2024 01:53
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Mederlock posted:They're a pretty good multi class ! id bet. but panache at 9th level is what would make it busted. this guy would be activating panache on sight with any npc that had even a slightly suspicious voice. it would be so awesome
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Mar 31, 2024 02:28
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I'm picking up arcane trickster next level. Has anyone used made hand in combat effectively? I'm thinking to use it to steal wands, arcane focus, unbuckle spell component pouches/quivers etc, but this seems a bit DM dependant.
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Mar 31, 2024 03:04
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casting mage hand in combat to disarm someone is like, five levels deep of dm dependent, good luck. I think any DM that would let it work against anyone thats offering any kind of resistance at all is insane. the spells a cantrip, the hand has no stats and cant attack or be attacked, can only lift 10lbs, and also most importantly thats stealing a lot of thunder from Bigby's Hand
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Mar 31, 2024 03:46
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Mechanically, the most important question is going to be “Does this action constitute a disarm or a theft?” If it’s a disarm then that’s an attack, and it’s not allowed. If it’s a theft then it’s a sleight of hand check to see if it’s noticed. The implication here is that contesting a Mage Hand isn’t difficult. While Mage Hand Legerdemain is a key class feature (and therefore should be showcased), the effect during combat seems intended to be Versatile Trickster, which would be overshadowed if Mage Hand was stealing everything not nailed down during combat. On that same note, the thing that often guides me on these sort of things is comparing what else in the game would produce the same mechanical effect. Taking someone’s magical focus or other object during combat is typically going to need a Disarm, which is a DMG optional rule that requires a successful contested attack roll from melee range. Another possibility is the Telekinesis spell, which is a 5th level spell requiring a contested ability check. Kaal fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Mar 31, 2024 |
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Mar 31, 2024 04:17
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Legit Businessman posted:I take it you've considered for your fencer a swashbuckler rogue? It could very well be a swashbuckler rogue. I was just thinking "what kind of character could I make which fits a Bard class" at the time I came up with the character concept.
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Mar 31, 2024 05:19
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HellCopter posted:I only started DMing in 5e, but I'm planning a Shadowfell-themed campaign and went back to look at old adventures for inspiration. Is it just me, or is modern D&D really lacking in dungeons? Keep on the Shadowfell has like a 3-story dungeon as the climax and I remember being disappointed that Avernus battlemaps were usually empty buildings with 4 guys in them. There is a logical problem with dungeons and large buildings that fighting is noisy and why aren't the guys in the next room coming over to see what all the noise is about? You can say that some of the guys are compelled to stay in their own room for various reasons.  Like this small dungeon where every room (except the initial t junction) has a different species of monster. They are all in the same cult, but don't really care about each other. The middle room is an unintelligent "guard dog" type monstrosity that will try to eat intruders but not call for help or alert anyone to trouble -- though they do use a screech ability that should be heard in adjacent rooms, but maybe they screech all day for fun and everyone has learned to tune them out. One room has creatures pretending to be inanimate objects for ambush purposes so even if they hear trouble they might stay where they are. I did rule that an intelligent enemy who realizes the fight is going poorly after it's companion dies was smart enough to try to run to the next room (activating that rooms enemies) rather than standing still and dying. And it nearly killed the party, lol. The other option I've seen is to separate the "active" rooms with acres of nonsensical empty corridor. At which point how is a dungeon better than a town with 6 buildings separated by empty streets? Besides, sprawling maps don't fit on your kitchen table so you are stuck with online or theater of the mind. I played I think 3 or 4 levels of an online game of Dungeon of the Mad Mage, which has the excuse that the dungeon was crazy because a guy made it for crazy wizard reasons. It's packed full of grumpy people and monsters because that's what the crazy wizard wants. After a few months the whole idea of dungeons started to get on my nerves.
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Mar 31, 2024 06:04
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homeless snail posted:the spells a cantrip, the hand has no stats and cant attack or be attacked, can only lift 10lbs, and also most importantly thats stealing a lot of thunder from Bigby's Hand E: hmm, you'd have a hell of an argument with your DM trying to get it to throw a magic stone, plus it'd use up your action. Throwing an explosive would be an attack, best you could do is use it to sneak a timed explosive nearer an enemy? The 'using an action' part is probably the biggest problem in combat honestly. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 12:33 on Mar 31, 2024 |
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Mar 31, 2024 12:23
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While it takes an action to cast, it lasts 10 rounds during combat. Arcane Tricksters can control their Mage Hands with their Cunning Action bonus action.
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Mar 31, 2024 14:15
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Kaal posted:Mechanically, the most important question is going to be “Does this action constitute a disarm or a theft?” If it’s a disarm then that’s an attack, and it’s not allowed. If it’s a theft then it’s a sleight of hand check to see if it’s noticed. The implication here is that contesting a Mage Hand isn’t difficult. While Mage Hand Legerdemain is a key class feature (and therefore should be showcased), the effect during combat seems intended to be Versatile Trickster, which would be overshadowed if Mage Hand was stealing everything not nailed down during combat. Versatile trickster just lets you distract enemies in combat. That it improves combat utility of MH suggests to me AT was intended for MH combat use. Contested attack roll from melee range vs contested sleight of hand roll at range for a key class feature doesn't seem unreasonable? Looking at what you are allowed to do, it's a little underwhelming. The big difference seems to be the 'worn or carried by another creature. But that only extends to containers held. - You can use the hand to manipulate an object, - open an unlocked door or container, - stow or retrieve an item from an open container -You can stow one object the hand is holding in a container worn or carried by another creature. -You can retrieve an object in a container worn or carried by another creature. - pour the contents out of a vial. -You can use thieves' tools to pick locks and disarm traps at range. So as it is you can't open a container carried by another creature. So if a creature is wearing a closed coin purse the AT can't steal it, or open it to take anything. Likewise you can't take anything anyone is wearing/holding/etc. only items inside an open container. But how many people walk around with an open container? It seems this is limited to picking literal pockets that do not have buttons/zips etc. And swords, which are in an open container(scabbard).
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Mar 31, 2024 15:24
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Outrail posted:- open an unlocked door or container,
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Mar 31, 2024 15:28
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Outrail posted:Versatile trickster just lets you distract enemies in combat. That it improves combat utility of MH suggests to me AT was intended for MH combat use. this is a misread in two key ways. VT is the sole combat use because gaining advantage in combat gives access to sneak attack, and facilitating access to sneak attack is common in rogue subclasses. also, the fact that only one use is enumerated specifically and without any "mage hand can also..." text should suggest that this is the sole exception, not that it's an entree into making the mage hand a part of combat overall. you're granted one specific limited exception to mage hand's inability to affect combat. you are of course free to try to argue otherwise (natural language, rule 0, etc), but 5e is built around a lot of this kind of very specific exception-based design. to compare to another rogue subclass, the soulknife uses psychic knives...that literally only pop into existence for the duration of your attack. you might say "ah, can i manifest a psychic knife to intimidate my cell guard, even though i am unarmed?" and RAW you simply may not. you may only hit him with it. or use it to teleport. 5e masquerades in some small respects as a game that supplies general rules and asks you to use imagination and adjudicate on the fly to cover the rest but the mechanical core it rests on and devotes most of its design to doesn't leave a lot of room for creative interpretation (except where the rules were poorly written and accidentally ambiguous, which happens much more than they intend). Valentin fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Mar 31, 2024 |
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Mar 31, 2024 15:33
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Valentin posted:this is a misread in two key ways. VT is the sole combat use because gaining advantage in combat gives access to sneak attack, and facilitating access to sneak attack is common in rogue subclasses. Whether or not the AT MH is intended to be used in combat until level 13 is up for debate. I would argue it can be used in combat just as any other action can be used in combat. Can persuasion, diplomacy, intimidation be used in combat? If you can find logical situation dependant use then yes. E: if you're arguing the soulknife should not be able to manifest a soulknife to intimidate a guard because that's not a specifically described ability I think you're just trying to be as pedantic as possible for some reason, sorry. Outrail fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Mar 31, 2024 |
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Mar 31, 2024 15:47
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If the magical hand for picking pockets can't pick a component pouch your dm hates fun
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Mar 31, 2024 15:54
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i'm not arguing anything about the soulknife. i'm telling you the soulknife is intentionally and specifically written that way. quote:Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade. This magic blade is a simple melee weapon with the finesse and thrown properties. It has a normal range of 60 feet and no long range, and on a hit, it deals psychic damage equal to 1d6 plus the ability modifier you used for the attack roll. The blade vanishes immediately after it hits or misses its target, and it leaves no mark on its target if it deals damage. it is simply a knife that exists only for the purpose of a single attack, and later at level 9 for a teleport action. RAW, it exists and can be used in no other scenario. you actually can't even use it to take an opportunity attack. this kind of design is not uncommon in 5e. similarly, mage hand's uses are very sharply delineated. you went through all of them already. those are the seven specific things it can do. several of them actually arguably are combat actions (i'm thinking half the time one would "pour the contents out of a vial" in d&d it's a healing potion into someone's unconscious mouth, and "manipulate an object" has an incredibly broad remit), but none of them are offensive, and you are explicitly barred from using it to make any attack rolls against someone else (and grapples, shoves, disarms, etc. are all attacks in 5e). you can try to edge case argue to use it against someone else in an offensive way that doesn't rise to the level of an attack, but that's very clearly against the intended design (and also wouldn't be the result of a "key class feature"; if mage hand is manipulating like, the clasp on the lich's phylactery amulet, you can do that from level one wizard, it's just object manipulation and the ability has no "carried by/not carried by" distinction for that clause). picking components from pouches actually does seem within RAW to me (assuming the spell component pouch is unlocked, and i don't see why it would be), but also RAW there's basically zero support for NPC spellcasters having component pouches or foci so in most cases you're constrained by whatever your dm invents on the spot. there are simply very bad rules for thievery and interacting with your opponent during combat so 99% of the problems here are not about mage hand but about whether it's reasonable in combat adjudication to e.g. let someone try to rip away the NPC wizard's spell component pouch, which is functionally the same action. it's a hand, so it's already only doing thing a hand could do. what you are asking for is less "can i use this ability inventively" and more "is it reasonable to allow a whole new class of combat action to be invented that enables anyone to inflict statuses or interfere with someone else's equipment with just their hands and no special rule" and that is a road it is generally best not to go down. Valentin fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Mar 31, 2024 |
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Mar 31, 2024 16:13
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Make the attack action to slowly attack the air in front of you. Now you can manifest a soulknife to intimidate someone, so RAW it is possible. The AT MH rules actually have combat applications as you just pointed out. Pickpocketing in combat is acceptable: (rogue sneaks up to wizard and pilfers his pouch). It reads that AT mage hand is allowing some kind of similar action at range, but with some limitations. I'm trying to figure out what is and isn't possible without ignoring the rules. Grabbing something out of someone's hands isn't going to happen. But stealing a sword from a scabbard seems fine. Taking something from an open pouch is fine, but MH can't open a container if it's on someone, but can if it's on the ground? There's seems to be some inconsistencies.
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Mar 31, 2024 16:27
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like fundamentally this is just a retread of "can a thief use their bonus action sleight of hand to steal something off an opponent mid-combat" and the answer is that the rules on that are so non-existent it is simply up to the dm within the confines of your exercise, there's no reason to think it can't open a container carried by someone, as far as i can tell. there's no limitation on "open an unlocked door or container" and no other text to read it against to suggest someone can't be carrying the container (as there is with the "stow/retrieve" part). taking a straightforward read of the ability i think there's no reason to think it can't: manipulate a buckle or clasp, open a spell component pouch, lower a helmet visor, grab a wizard's spellbook (if under 10lbs and not in their hands), remove the arrows from a quiver, etc. it's just that all of those are gonna be naturally extremely dm-dependent and personally i think the correct answer to take on any of them is pretty clearly "not as a general rule" because otherwise combat can very readily become about constant improvisation of DCs and rolls on the dm's end, and 5e's design especially recently imo tends to support the "combat actually has distinct and special rules and cannot be run as a natural extension of the fictional game world" approach. Valentin fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Mar 31, 2024 |
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Mar 31, 2024 16:34
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Why on earth would a lich be wearing their phylactery? That's just deliberately creating a single point of failure, and is completely counter to the point of having a phylactery in the first place.
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Mar 31, 2024 16:42
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Magic Missile “…create[s] three glowing darts” but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of someone thinking that means you can use it to create a magical dart to hold and intimidate someone with.
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Mar 31, 2024 16:43
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Staltran posted:Why on earth would a lich be wearing their phylactery? That's just deliberately creating a single point of failure, and is completely counter to the point of having a phylactery in the first place. Low wisdom Lich who can't help but show off his sweet bling
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Mar 31, 2024 16:47
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Staltran posted:Why on earth would a lich be wearing their phylactery? That's just deliberately creating a single point of failure, and is completely counter to the point of having a phylactery in the first place. well no one said it's their phylactery. liches can be friends! if two liches trade phylacteries and then part ways to go pursue their evil machinations in separate parts of the continent, they get notice of each other's death and a chance to secure the other's phylactery against interference. the dead one regenerates in a safe place with a friend and then the friend has another lich to help them go snag their soul again and re-bind it to a new phylactery. bone buds. you're not gonna make a set of magical guards more fierce or location more obscure than whatever defenses your buddy already has, and then the guardian of your phylactery is another lich, which is basically the only kind of powerful undead you can't make. i'm talking myself into double lich campaign. Valentin fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Mar 31, 2024 |
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Mar 31, 2024 16:51
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If I was a liche I’d develop a huge interest in pottery of all sorts, absolutely fill my lair with every conceivable container decorated in all sorts of ways from gaudy to mundane. Meanwhile, I’d huck my actual phylactery in the stagnant pond out back.
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Mar 31, 2024 16:54
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Bad Munki posted:Magic Missile “…create[s] three glowing darts” but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of someone thinking that means you can use it to create a magical dart to hold and intimidate someone with. You could use it to fire three darts to kill another prisoner or explode a vase or something to intimidate them. Valentin posted:well no one said it's their phylactery. An entire cabal of liches wearing each other's phylacteries could be an entire campaign worth frustration for a party
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Mar 31, 2024 17:03
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The ancient dracolich BBEG of my campaign has been forced to wear theirs because it's been lost many times before over the millennia + she's preparing to get on a spelljammer and leave the plane and doesn't want to die permanently if she beefs it on another world
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Mar 31, 2024 17:05
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ive thought about it and i would probably let a player hold on to their soul knives for 6 seconds at a time if they passed a high arcana check. if they wanted to hold them for even longer i would make them take 1d6 points of psychic damage and redo the arcana check. that would be my hypothetical ruling. it’s an interesting ability
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Mar 31, 2024 17:09
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if i had a player obsessed with making mage hand legerdemain a combat utility i would make sure that all of my humanoid monsters had big conspicuous belt clasps that, when undone, cause their pants to fall off
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Mar 31, 2024 17:10
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just completely wrecking every encounter until you meet the ultimate enemy: arthur from ghosts n goblins
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Mar 31, 2024 17:19
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scary ghost dog posted:if i had a player obsessed with making mage hand legerdemain a combat utility i would make sure that all of my humanoid monsters had big conspicuous belt clasps that, when undone, cause their pants to fall off Creature is considered to be on difficult terrain until they pull up or remove pants (bonus action or sex/strength save). E: it was a typo but now it's not
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Mar 31, 2024 17:23
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Valentin posted:well no one said it's their phylactery. liches can be friends! if two liches trade phylacteries and then part ways to go pursue their evil machinations in separate parts of the continent, they get notice of each other's death and a chance to secure the other's phylactery against interference. the dead one regenerates in a safe place with a friend and then the friend has another lich to help them go snag their soul again and re-bind it to a new phylactery. bone buds. you're not gonna make a set of magical guards more fierce or location more obscure than whatever defenses your buddy already has, and then the guardian of your phylactery is another lich, which is basically the only kind of powerful undead you can't make. i'm talking myself into double lich campaign. You're talking me into one too! Unfortunately I don't think it would really work with the Illithlich in my current one.
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Mar 31, 2024 18:22
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Outrail posted:Creature is considered to be on difficult terrain until they pull up or remove pants (bonus action or sex/strength save). yep and it has disadvantage on saving throws against vicious mockery
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Mar 31, 2024 19:02
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Make a table to roll on to determine what's underneath. 0: Nothing 1-3: Heart pattern boxers 4-7: Second backup pants 8-13: Underwear with day of week 14-16: Underwear with wrong day of the week 17-21: Stockings and garters
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Mar 31, 2024 19:17
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roll for girth
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Mar 31, 2024 19:46
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change my name posted:roll for girth my rule for that is 1d6+con inches. doesnt get used too often but its good to have a rule for when players ask
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Mar 31, 2024 20:03
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3.5 inches is average
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Mar 31, 2024 20:14
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This is my Barbarian gnome, Tripod
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Mar 31, 2024 20:23
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scary ghost dog posted:my rule for that is 1d6+con inches. doesnt get used too often but its good to have a rule for when players ask I found an Amulet of Health and now my pants don’t fit
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Mar 31, 2024 20:26
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the long CON
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Mar 31, 2024 20:29
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Outrail posted:An entire cabal of liches wearing each other's phylacteries could be an entire campaign worth frustration for a party A group of swinger liches holding phylactery key parties.
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Mar 31, 2024 20:51
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