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(Thread IKs: fart simpson)
 
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WhiskeyWhiskers
Oct 14, 2013


"هذا ليس عادلاً."
"هذا ليس عادلاً على الإطلاق."
"كان هناك وقت الآن."
(السياق الخفي: للقراءة)
It's very funny that Marx was always like, 'Alright boys, I don't know what you're going to be dealing with, so anything you need to do to ratfuck the capitalists is fair game including using them extensively in order to eventually destroy them.' And liberals, knowing innately that the end goal is far more righteous than any ends they pursue, assume that Marxists must be bound by extreme strictures on their conduct in line with this righteousness and any failure to uphold those strictures necessarily will lead to the failure of achieving the righteous end. Their realpolitik is awful towards awful ends and that is why it works in their mind.

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corona familiar
Aug 13, 2021


a Marxist critique of the people's republic of China? in an op-ed? contained entirely within the New York Times?

...

:whitewater:

fart simpson
Jul 2, 2005

DEATH TO AMERICA
:xickos:

if you want a real critique just read “from victory to defeat” and see how you feel about it imo

corona familiar
Aug 13, 2021

haha i just wanted to make the dumb simpsons joke but I'll check it out thanks

Homeless Friend
Jul 16, 2007

lmfao i pray we get more from western econs trying to do marx-jitsu

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Homeless Friend posted:

lmfao i pray we get more from western econs trying to do marx-jitsu

it dovetails really well with that Jan op-ed:

quote:

Dan Hutcheson, the vice chair of research firm TechInsights, said that the fear was that China would do for semiconductors what it did for shipping, solar cells or steel — build up excess capacity and then drive foreign competitors out of business.
“It’s a legitimate fear, because the weakness of Western companies is they have to be profitable,” he said.

Flournival Dixon
Jan 29, 2024
I generally think that anyone who claims understanding or even tolerance of marx while rejecting lenin can be dismissed out of hand regarding anything important in the world and that article certainly makes me think I'm right to do so lol

WhiskeyWhiskers
Oct 14, 2013


"هذا ليس عادلاً."
"هذا ليس عادلاً على الإطلاق."
"كان هناك وقت الآن."
(السياق الخفي: للقراءة)
It's such a tired loving trick that Lenin wrote about it being old hat.

Zodium
Jun 19, 2004


lmfao

Grapplejack
Nov 27, 2007

They don't teach Marx in econ schools anyway so it's very likely yellen doesn't actually know anything about Marxism

Zodium
Jun 19, 2004

it's basically taboo to read marx at all in polite academic society

Oneiros
Jan 12, 2007



Richard Wolff posted:

Janet Yellen, the United States' Federal Reserve's new Chair, and I were graduate economics students around the same time at Yale University. The professor who shaped the macroeconomics we learned was James Tobin. He taught us to be Keynesian economists: that is, to accept capitalism as the sole object and focus of our studies, to celebrate it as the best possible system, and to preserve it against its own serious faults. Keynesian economics teaches that to secure capitalism's blessings requires systematic government intervention in the workings of the economy.

...

Thus, after Yale, Janet Yellen and I took different paths in our approaches and experiences working within US capitalism. Ever the liberal Democrat, she endorses capitalism despite its cyclical and colossal waste of resources and the human tragedy this imposes across the globe. No courses at Yale troubled Yellen or myself with any analyses of how exploitation lies at the core of capitalist production. We were never taught that the majority of industrial workers produce more value for employers than what employers pay them. We were prevented from encountering arguments examining how this idea of "more" (or, in economic terms, of a surplus) contributed fundamentally to the systemic inequalities that define capitalist societies.

No irritating Marxism was allowed to disturb the deep, unquestioned political tranquility that professors embedded in Yale's graduate economics curriculum. The celebration of the free competitive market, although often extended rhetorically to the free marketplace of competing ideas, was suspended in the case of Marxian concepts and analyses of capitalist economies. The latter were systematically excluded at Yale as at most US universities then and ever since: no free marketplace of ideas there.

Like Bernanke, Yellen will do her job as best as she can. No thought about alternatives to capitalism will likely occur to her. She and the Fed's board of governors will consider no policy responses to the current system's grotesque flaws and injustices that entail changing the system. No free marketplace of competing ideas at the Fed either. She will, like her predecessors, transfer the deep political conservatism of her graduate economics education in the US to her policies.

Critics have attacked the Fed since its inception a century ago because of its structural (and extraordinarily cozy) entwining of government regulation and the banking industry it presumably regulated. Just as important, however, are the conceptual continuities between mainstream economics as academic discipline and as governing policy ideology. What threatens those continuities now is the emerging dissent to mainstream academia and the widening disconnect between the Fed's policy universe and most people's lives.

The global capitalism into which Janet Yellen and I graduated with new PhDs in the 1970s proceeded ever since to illustrate growing inequality of income and wealth across and within most economies, which has contributed to mounting social unrest, conflict, wars, and unspeakable social tragedies. Since 2007, the global economic meltdown has reminded everyone of capitalism's vulnerability to the kinds of economic catastrophes that marked the 1930s. Gradually before and quickly since 2007, interest in Marxian and other critiques of capitalism and in socialist as well as other alternative economic systems has been rekindled.

Yellen and I had the same economics education and have experienced the same global capitalist development since, yet we have responded very differently. The same systems generated contradictory outcomes. Capitalism's dysfunctions have led me to appreciate and independently learn what Marxian economics has to teach me, outside of Yale's mainstream economics. Yellen and her cohorts avoided and bypassed all that.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund
I do hope more is done to reduce the billionaire class and that the common prosperity results in better lives for all. But lol, lmao at the USA complaining to anyone about inequality.

fart simpson
Jul 2, 2005

DEATH TO AMERICA
:xickos:

corona familiar posted:

haha i just wanted to make the dumb simpsons joke but I'll check it out thanks

i don’t really agree with her overall argument but it’s here

https://foreignlanguages.press/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/N01-From-Victory-to-Defeat-5th-Printing.pdf

Cerebral Bore
Apr 21, 2010


Fun Shoe

tl;dr: china is kicking our rear end so we'd like to speak with their manager

stephenthinkpad
Jan 2, 2020
NYT article is dogshit and namedropped Marx and Keyne randomly, and it doesn't even touch the main reason Yellen is going to China, the US will drop interest rate 3-4 times before election, the US needs China buy *some* US bonds or at least not dump the dollar.

Thing is Yellen is not in the position to give China anything China wants. She will just say I will write a loving recommendation letter for you but I can't control sanctions, Tiktok ban, EV, palestine...basically anything China wants so her trip is 80% for show.

Also NYT article is dogshit.

Oh yeah they have been beating the "manufacturing surplus" drum for a couple months. You know you are dosing something right when all the capitalists are whining about the same thing.

stephenthinkpad has issued a correction as of 11:14 on Apr 4, 2024

Ardennes
May 12, 2002
Admittedly, it is looking with the swing in oil prices, at least currently, there may be a pull back on cuts but there is still plenty the US wants from China and pretty much nothing to give in return.

double nine
Aug 8, 2013


quote:

Forty years later, global monopoly again is running out of places to expand. In the meantime, rich and poor countries have been flooded with “made in China” products. China’s land, river, and natural resources are exhausted and its environment thoroughly polluted from overproduction and overinvestment. Some experts say that even if it were possible, it would take much longer than forty years for the environment to recover to where it was forty years ago. The so-called “China’s miracle” or “the miracle of monopoly capital” of the past four decades cannot be repeated.

The future of the Chinese people, and in fact the future of all people in the world and the natural world itself, depends how long we allow monopoly capital to dominate the future of the earth and of humanity. That is to say, our future depends on how revolutionaries can unite the international working class to resolutely destroy international monopoly capital, to end capitalism and to build socialism.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund
How long ago was this written? I feel like some of the theorising may be a little out of date.

It's also not helped by not referring to studies/direct information to back up it's own findings.

Regarde Aduck
Oct 19, 2012

c l o u d k i t t e n
Grimey Drawer
don't really feel like China is out of resources nor are they polluted more than anywhere else. Which is to say heavily polluted but yeah. Not one bit of fresh water on earth doesn't contain microplastics and all that.

Soapy_Bumslap
Jun 19, 2013

We're gonna need a bigger chode
Grimey Drawer
"China is dying because they don't consume as much as us"

*is 400 pounds and surrounded by filthy hoarder garbage

fart simpson
Jul 2, 2005

DEATH TO AMERICA
:xickos:

Josef bugman posted:

How long ago was this written? I feel like some of the theorising may be a little out of date.

It's also not helped by not referring to studies/direct information to back up it's own findings.

i think it was 2019? it’s written by an old maoist dissident who left china a while ago and thinks deng betrayed maoism

it’s not very long, i read it in 2020 i think and it didn’t take very long, but that was before i read much theory so looking back on it now i probably wouldn’t agree with much of it

fart simpson
Jul 2, 2005

DEATH TO AMERICA
:xickos:

anyway the part of the book i do kinda like is the pushback on the idea that mao era china was totally a disaster. there’s stats and stuff in there showing that the mao era did advance necessary development too

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

fart simpson posted:

anyway the part of the book i do kinda like is the pushback on the idea that mao era china was totally a disaster. there’s stats and stuff in there showing that the mao era did advance necessary development too

I mean more should have been done to prevent problems in the food supply and I think the "5 pests" campaign is generally considered a bad idea. But I again need to do a lot more reading on teh Mao era and a lot of the early Chinese Communist leadership/ attempts.

Though I am more often concerned for individual people as well as the larger picture, because I know I am a mediocrity myself, I tend to like those among us who need a bit of help and are trying to make a better world possible.

Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3
Nov 15, 2003

stephenthinkpad posted:

Thing is Yellen is not in the position to give China anything China wants. She will just say I will write a loving recommendation letter for you but I can't control sanctions, Tiktok ban, EV, palestine...basically anything China wants so her trip is 80% for show.

if Yellen can get Mao-wrapped Chinese EVs into the US thats a lol from me

stephenthinkpad
Jan 2, 2020

Oneiros posted:


dick wolf posted:

Janet Yellen, the United States' Federal Reserve's new Chair, and I were graduate economics students around the same time at Yale University. The professor who shaped the macroeconomics we learned was James Tobin. He taught us to be Keynesian economists: that is, to accept capitalism as the sole object and focus of our studies, to celebrate it as the best possible system, and to preserve it against its own serious faults. Keynesian economics teaches that to secure capitalism's blessings requires systematic government intervention in the workings of the economy.

...

Thus, after Yale, Janet Yellen and I took different paths in our approaches and experiences working within US capitalism. Ever the liberal Democrat, she endorses capitalism despite its cyclical and colossal waste of resources and the human tragedy this imposes across the globe. No courses at Yale troubled Yellen or myself with any analyses of how exploitation lies at the core of capitalist production. We were never taught that the majority of industrial workers produce more value for employers than what employers pay them. We were prevented from encountering arguments examining how this idea of "more" (or, in economic terms, of a surplus) contributed fundamentally to the systemic inequalities that define capitalist societies.

No irritating Marxism was allowed to disturb the deep, unquestioned political tranquility that professors embedded in Yale's graduate economics curriculum. The celebration of the free competitive market, although often extended rhetorically to the free marketplace of competing ideas, was suspended in the case of Marxian concepts and analyses of capitalist economies. The latter were systematically excluded at Yale as at most US universities then and ever since: no free marketplace of ideas there.

I just want to express how ridiculous that the elite institute of the United States don't touch Marxist economic theory , just how crazy that is. This is more ridiculous than when I found out the Washington think tank top China hands don't know anything about the Chinese language. ( Jude Blanchette, he never heard of the proverb "Kill the chicken to scare the monkey")

Zodium
Jun 19, 2004

even admitting that you have studied marx/marxism will get you looked at suspiciously in most academic circles. sometimes literally.

Tankbuster
Oct 1, 2021
monkeys are nice and funny. Why would you want to spook them unless they are roaming through your city?

Truga
May 4, 2014
Lipstick Apathy
marxist literature is considered some kind of dangerous text by most liberals at this point, like it'll damage a person or something, which is really funny considering the whole free speech posturing

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009

there was a huge red scare in the 1950s in America. you couldn’t “read Marx” and keep your job. yellen for example went to school like 5-10 years after that

Jose
Jul 24, 2007

Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer
probably not ideal to have these ancient people running everything

stephenthinkpad
Jan 2, 2020

Tankbuster posted:

monkeys are nice and funny. Why would you want to spook them unless they are roaming through your city?

It's just an old saying of curb stomping a litter guy in front of a big guy to show him the packing order.

But you can't spoil the monkeys, they will go into your house and tear up everything.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009

so I guess you could say a direct result of Americans hooverism and domestic post war cultural revolution is that it no longer has economists who understand anything

Zodium
Jun 19, 2004

Truga posted:

marxist literature is considered some kind of dangerous text by most liberals at this point, like it'll damage a person or something, which is really funny considering the whole free speech posturing

yep. capital is basically the necronomicon. and that's badass.

Gildiss
Aug 24, 2010

Grimey Drawer
The most you'll get is like a little quip about quotas and how a factory in SOVIET RUSSIA will be commanded to make 50 tons of engines and so they make 1 50 ton engine and call it a day.

Which is insane if you think about it for longer than a second. Jesus they took a factory designed to make car engines and retooled everything to create a giant mecha engine?

Even in their fake little clown version it owns.

crepeface
Nov 5, 2004

r*p*f*c*

Zodium posted:

yep. capital is basically the necronomicon. and that's badass.

learning the forbidden truth and seeing the veiled evil of capital behind every eye and every institution and getting called crazy ftw

mila kunis
Jun 10, 2011

fart simpson posted:

anyway the part of the book i do kinda like is the pushback on the idea that mao era china was totally a disaster. there’s stats and stuff in there showing that the mao era did advance necessary development too

Deng china would not have been possible without mao china. Massive improvements in education, life expectancy, health and living standards while under blockade from both the imperialist bloc and (eventually) the Soviet bloc. The cheap and technically skilled workforce that propelled dengist growth didn't come out of nowhere

eSports Chaebol
Feb 22, 2005

Yeah, actually, gamers in the house forever,

euphronius posted:

there was a huge red scare in the 1950s in America. you couldn’t “read Marx” and keep your job. yellen for example went to school like 5-10 years after that

at least learning Russian made you more respected
as a Kremlinologist instead of less. the old adage about “the orient” being any place you can be an expert without knowing the language still holds true

mawarannahr
May 21, 2019

euphronius posted:

there was a huge red scare in the 1950s in America. you couldn’t “read Marx” and keep your job. yellen for example went to school like 5-10 years after that
Wolff and Yellen both got PhDs from Yale economics in 1969 and 1971, respectively. Wolff was under Paul Baran at Stanford but transferred after Baran got hit with the heart attack gun.

quote:

Paul Alexander Baran (/ˈbærən/; 25 August 1909 – 26 March 1964) was an American Marxist economist. In 1951 Baran was promoted to full professor at Stanford University and Baran was the only tenured Marxian economist in the United States until his death in 1964. Baran wrote The Political Economy of Growth in 1957 and co-authored Monopoly Capital with Paul Sweezy.
It wasn't all roses but there was room for it at elite institutions. Here's what happened to Sweezy

quote:

In 1954, New Hampshire Attorney General Louis C. Wyman subpoenaed Sweezy and made inquiries into the contents of a guest lecture at the University of New Hampshire and his political beliefs and associations, demanding to know the names of his political associates. Sweezy refused to comply, citing his First Amendment right of freedom of expression. He was cited for contempt of court and briefly imprisoned, but the US Supreme Court overturned the conviction in a landmark case for academic freedom, in Sweezy v. New Hampshire, 354 U.S. 234 (1957).[8][9]

Sweezy was active in a wide range of progressive causes, including the Emergency Civil Liberties Committee, the National Lawyers Guild, the National Council of Arts, Sciences and Professions, and the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.[10] He was the chairman of the Committee in Defense of Carl Marzani and was particularly active fighting against the prosecution of members of the Communist Party under the Smith Act.[10]

An outspoken opponent of the Vietnam War, Sweezy was a prominent supporter of Bertrand Russell's International War Crimes Tribunal.[10]

While it wasn't particularly widespread or well supported, there was some there. IIRC Wolff mentioned he knew that Yellen did read Marx and Marxian theorists.

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stephenthinkpad
Jan 2, 2020
Mao China did alot to improve the basic literary rate and national health care facility coverage and building up the heavy industries in basically every sector, alot of heavy lifting to set up a solid foundation. Also setting up a proper nationwide party cadre training and career advancement system. Alot of stuff dare I say many other global south countries hasn't sorted them out in present time. You can't jump both feet into low cost manufacturing and expect to lift yourself out of poverty in 5 years.

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