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Worthy has lovely hands and has had lovely hands his entire career. He needs to be wide open to make catches. Penix is not a better prospect than Daniels what the gently caress is being said here
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Apr 4, 2024 22:13
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Were reaching peak offseason draft doldrums. We all question reality at this point.
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Apr 4, 2024 22:45
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I don't even particularly like Daniels and yeah he's better than Penix.
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Apr 4, 2024 23:13
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I need Khristian Boyd on my team.
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Apr 4, 2024 23:19
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Doltos posted:Worthy has lovely hands and has had lovely hands his entire career. He needs to be wide open to make catches. good thing he's wide open a lot
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Apr 4, 2024 23:54
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The question wasn't whether Daniels is the better prospect. It was whether it's nuts to like Penix better than him. And it's not, depending on what a person is looking for in a quarterback. Penix has skills and attributes that Daniels does not, and vice versa. Even outside of fan preference, I'm sure there are teams and scouts out there who feel that Penix would suit their organization better than Daniels.
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Apr 5, 2024 00:28
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I mean yea but that's just a tepid statement that says nothing with zero insight
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Apr 5, 2024 01:06
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A Sneaker Broker posted:I need Khristian Boyd on my team. I don't know with any of these guys outside of Newton, Murphy, Hall, and Jenkins. They all seem like rotational guys to me with various upsides and flaws that are significant enough to limit their ceiling in the NFL. I don't think Fiske is bad, for example. Lots to love with his motor. He's also very limited strength wise, and that's going to impact how and when you can use him. Go down list after those first 4 and I don't really see any guys who really scream starter. Sweat is different because he's the only potential starter at NT in the draft. How much you want him depends on how much you need or want a true NT. For all there is to like about Sweat, he's very much a developmental prospect.
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Apr 5, 2024 01:30
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I don't see what people are seeing in Kris Jenkins he's such a non-entity
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Apr 5, 2024 01:34
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the only thing I think Penix is better than Daniels at, is actually throwing the ball when facing pressure(largely a function of him being a statue), and being willing and able to throw MOF/into tigher windows. Other than that all things being equal Jayden Daniels is better.
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Apr 5, 2024 01:36
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Doltos posted:I don't see what people are seeing in Kris Jenkins he's such a non-entity The name
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Apr 5, 2024 01:43
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Doltos posted:I don't see what people are seeing in Kris Jenkins he's such a non-entity He's the weakest of the 4, but he's pretty adept at getting off blocks and working through traffic quickly in the run game. He's not gonna provide much pressure as a rusher, but I think he's very comfortably the best run defender of the DTs. While he doesn't have the play strength to effectively absorb double teams, he's got enough of a combination of strength and quickness not to be pushed wildly out of the play like Fiske. He's not flashy. I think he's gonna make a living being a solid run defender in the NFL. Sometimes you just need guys who can consistently man a gap.
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Apr 5, 2024 02:00
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Gareth Gobulcoque posted:He's the weakest of the 4, but he's pretty adept at getting off blocks and working through traffic quickly in the run game. He's not gonna provide much pressure as a rusher, but I think he's very comfortably the best run defender of the DTs. While he doesn't have the play strength to effectively absorb double teams, he's got enough of a combination of strength and quickness not to be pushed wildly out of the play like Fiske. He's not flashy. I think he's gonna make a living being a solid run defender in the NFL. Sometimes you just need guys who can consistently man a gap. Yeah I generally agree with this sentiment. One on One he's good at leaning and creating length which is invaluable in manning gaps. It's just that he seems so thoroughly average in strength and explosiveness. All his pressures seem to come from broken down plays and the second he gets double teamed the RB gets 6 yards through his gap.
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Apr 5, 2024 02:53
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Forgot to say one of the big selling points for me on Jenkins is that you don't see his play drop off against the best teams he faced. He is what he is. Boring McBoringface.
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Apr 5, 2024 03:38
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Dexo posted:the only thing I think Penix is better than Daniels at, is actually throwing the ball when facing pressure(largely a function of him being a statue), and being willing and able to throw MOF/into tigher windows. Other than that all things being equal Jayden Daniels is better. penix is also way better at not getting trucked by linebackers, big plus there
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Apr 5, 2024 04:12
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Penix is DeShone Kizer.
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Apr 5, 2024 04:49
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I think he's a lot different
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Apr 5, 2024 05:04
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Sataere posted:Penix is DeShone Kizer. we have deshone kizer at home
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Apr 5, 2024 05:08
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Penix does have some noteworthy concerns as a prospect but he also has repeatedly shown than he can make every nfl throw with plus-accuracy. I’m a bit surprised by how down the draft-Twitter-sphere is on him. It kind of reminds me how many people were poo-poo’ing Stroud last year because his, allegedly, only super power was passing accuracy for nfl throws. Obviously Penix and Stroud are very very different prospects but it turns out “throwing accurately” is useful for a quarterback. I’d take Daniels over Penix right now. I’d take Penix over any of the second tier guys, including JJ.
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Apr 5, 2024 05:32
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To be clear, I'm talking about college Kizer, not NFL Kizer. The way they both throw the ball at just one velocity. Kizer was absolutely failed by the Browns. I'm not sure he ever would have been good, but he had traits as an NFL prospect.
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Apr 5, 2024 05:44
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Ornery and Hornery posted:Penix does have some noteworthy concerns as a prospect but he also has repeatedly shown than he can make every nfl throw with plus-accuracy. The difference is CJ Stroud was actually very mobile and could throw accurately when forced off his spot and having to create when things break down. Ohio State he didn't have to really, but then that Georgia game, that man showed he could put on the cape and create. Penix is less accurate than Daniels, Williams, Maye and McCarthy at Deep intermediate and short routes. And that's disregarding how less accurate he is when he is moved off of his spot. CJ Stroud was obscenely more accurate than Penix. Penix beats Daniels when it comes to throws behind the LOS tho(barely), still worse than Williams, Maye, McCarthy(barely him) Dexo fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Apr 5, 2024 |
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Apr 5, 2024 05:45
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Everyone who's super high on Penix should watch his last few games from this past regular season. I've seen him when he's on a roll and had the same thoughts of "This guy can make all the throws; why isn't he more highly regarded?" but the lows are really ugly for a 23 year old on such a talented team
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Apr 5, 2024 06:07
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Dexo posted:The difference is CJ Stroud was actually insanely mobile and could throw accurately when forced off his spot and having to create when things break down. Ohio State he didn't have to really, but then that Georgia game, that man showed he could put on the cape and create. I fully recognize, as I posted, that Stroud and Penix are very very different prospects. That doesn’t change the fact the draft-twittersphere seemed to ignore his playmaking and also downplay the value of accurate passing. The point was that the Twitter-sphere seems to undervalued actually being good at throwing the ball. Dexo posted:Penix is less accurate than Daniels, Williams, Maye and McCarthy at Deep intermediate and short routes. I’m not sure where your data is coming from but overall Penix is more accurate for a wider variety of NFL throws than Maye and McCarthy. Dexo posted:And that's disregarding how less accurate he is when he is moved off of his spot. CJ Stroud was obscenely more accurate than Penix. Yes. CJ Stroud is more accurate than Penix. Stroud the most accurate qb prospect I can recall in recent history. I did not claim that Penix was better than Stroud. I also think it is fair to point out that Penix is really good at navigating the pocket and minimizing sacks/pressures. Dexo posted:Penix beats Daniels when it comes to throws behind the LOS tho(barely), still worse than Williams, Maye, McCarthy(barely him) Whatever PFF stats you wanna use to try and hype up McCarthy then go ahead. How about this from PFF: quote:The former Husky led the class in play-action dropbacks (198) this past season, from which he produced 18 big-time throws and zero turnover-worthy plays while amassing 96 first-downs — all of which led this year’s prospects. Penix is clearly great at throwing the ball and clearly has good accuracy. Ornery and Hornery fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Apr 5, 2024 |
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Apr 5, 2024 06:14
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xbilkis posted:Everyone who's super high on Penix should watch his last few games from this past regular season. I've seen him when he's on a roll and had the same thoughts of "This guy can make all the throws; why isn't he more highly regarded?" but the lows are really ugly for a 23 year old on such a talented team I feel so awful for him that he got injured at the start of the championship game. That left such a bad impression of him to the nation. But injuries and Penix are a package deal 
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Apr 5, 2024 06:19
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The thing that I think separates Penix and Daniels in how high you want to pick them is their release. Penix has a hitch in his throw that makes quick throws tougher for him. Daniels has such a quick release that you can probably land him behind a lovely OL and he'll still do decent. I think Penix is more athletic in the pocket than he's given credit for, but if he's got to throw behind the Commanders' OL he's going to have a lot of traffic directly in his face which like, even without injuries he can't do. I also think Daniels' under pressure knocks aren't nearly as bad as people make them out to be. There's plenty of plays out there where he can deliver the ball well to the right receiver while getting plastered at the line.
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Apr 5, 2024 06:57
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Yeah, Penix is great on Play action. It's one of his strengths. His Big Time Throw Rate, and Turnover worthy play numbers from PFF are also good. Penix is a fine prospect, Sorry when I say intermediate, I'm not talking just MOF. I'm combining all areas for intermediate depth throws. Joe Burrow's thing IIRC was he was actually decently accurate when throwing MOF on intermediate and deep routes, but his offense just never asked him to. and Burrow is a loving king at quick and short game stuff. Russ's inability to throw MOF was able to be worked around because he could move and buy time to scramble drill when structure broke down and why when Russ lost a step poo poo started getting dire for him quickly. It's why I have concerns about Jayden because he does not break contain to buy time to throw, he just straight scrambles(or takes a sack). I'm not particularly hyping up JJ McCarthy. Nor am I like "bashing" Penix except to say that he is a worse prospect than Jayden Daniels. who is a pretty good prospect. I would take JJ over Penix too, but that is largely because I weight age pretty highly and think because of his ability to you know not be a statue in the pocket is almost a necessity in today's NFL unless you are hyper accurate and quick, of which Penix is not, or has not shown over the course of his career.   Doltos posted:The thing that I think separates Penix and Daniels in how high you want to pick them is their release. Penix has a hitch in his throw that makes quick throws tougher for him. Daniels has such a quick release that you can probably land him behind a lovely OL and he'll still do decent. I think Penix is more athletic in the pocket than he's given credit for, but if he's got to throw behind the Commanders' OL he's going to have a lot of traffic directly in his face which like, even without injuries he can't do. I also think Daniels' under pressure knocks aren't nearly as bad as people make them out to be. There's plenty of plays out there where he can deliver the ball well to the right receiver while getting plastered at the line. I agree, Jayden's release is the thing that might save him, But my problem with Jayden is when structure breaks down he no longer considers throwing the ball, and decides to Dexo fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Apr 5, 2024 |
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Apr 5, 2024 06:58
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Dexo posted:Russ's inability to throw MOF was able to be worked around because he could move and buy time to scramble drill when structure broke down and why when Russ lost a step poo poo started getting dire for him quickly. I think your statement has two severe over simplifications. First, Prime Russ didn’t have an “inability” to throw MOF. That makes it sound like he was some Zach Wilson qb when throwing over the middle. Russ was below average rate of throws MOF but still decent *enough* on the times he did choose to throw MOF. Second, Russell “worked around” that MOF pattern not just because of his scramble drills and Russell Wilson Bullshit (tm). He also was really really good at other throws including sideline deep balls, which is one of the single most valuable throws for a QB toolset. Dexo posted:It's why I have concerns about Jayden because he does not break contain to buy time to throw, he just straight scrambles(or takes a sack). Dexo posted:I'm not particularly hyping up JJ McCarthy. Nor am I like "bashing" Penix except to say that he is a worse prospect than Jayden Daniels. who is a pretty good prospect. [quote]
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Apr 5, 2024 08:28
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Doltos posted:I think Penix is more athletic in the pocket than he's given credit for, but if he's got to throw behind the Commanders' OL he's going to have a lot of traffic directly in his face which like, even without injuries he can't do. Agreed on both points. I think Jayden is a very good prospect and certainly the level of qb prospect where a team kind of just has to gamble on him. He’s a franchise qb quality prospect, at a certain point teams have to roll the dice on those types of prospects. It’s interesting to think how differently he’d be evaluated if Daniels was ten pounds heavier and one year younger.
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Apr 5, 2024 08:32
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Would you rascals rather have Nix or Rattler? Nix feels like a low upside maybe okay backup, whereas Rattler at least has some gamble upside as a potential qb. Given that Nix is whispered in the first and Rattler seems like the absolute highest is in the second, I think Rattler offers a lot more value.
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Apr 5, 2024 08:34
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lmao @ absolutely anyone taking Bonix in the 1st
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Apr 5, 2024 08:37
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BlindSite posted:Were reaching peak offseason draft doldrums. We all question reality at this point. To wit, "The Vikings are fine starting Sam Darnold this year". There is a 0% chance he is the starter by Christmas unless his replacement is injured or in jail or something. I am reminded of Mike Glennon totally being the Bears QB of the future. Then they mortgaged the farm to trade up for Trubisky and Glennon's career was over by like week 4.
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Apr 5, 2024 08:43
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We are comparing prospects. Penix's numbers are low compared it the other top prospects in this draft. Two of those prospects in significantly worse situations. Penix is like a mid to late second round grade for me, he's not like undraftable or anything, he's just not as good of a prospect for me as Caleb, Maye, Daniels, and McCarthy. It's fine to disagree with me, as hell I might be wrong, and statistically I will be wrong because it's very unlikely all of these QBs pan out, if I am wrong I'm fine with it because it's something to learn and take something new from. but all I can do is explain to you specifically why I personally feel the way I do about these specific prospects. As someone who just went through being extremely wrong about Justin Fields, nd going through that experience, all this poo poo matters once you leave college and get into the league where everything is faster, the windows are tighter and you won't have a unfair advantage in terms of talent disparity or scheme. 20 yard runs can be electric , the league can scheme to can stop or slow that. Especially if you just instantly run and bail vs run to throw. Fields would do some of the most spectacular poo poo I've ever seen on a football field he is still a bottom third of the league QB. If you are unwilling or unable to throw tight window MOF throws in college what do you think happens when you get to the pros and those windows are tighter and accuracy is more paramount. You won't be a 5th year starter going up against children, or other regular dudes not good enough to make it to the league. You won't be able to just bomb slot fades to Nabers and BTJ in the pros. You likely won't have Odunze and Polk bullying college corners and being able to bail you out. To me process, and traits matter more when judging prospects than results. I personally really really don't like dudes with 4 to 5 years of starts who suddenly explode and dominate without a notable change in their process, but have better results that could be easily explained by a surrounding cast of great players. Or being able to out athlete folks in college. Once again if I'm wrong I'm wrong, I do this poo poo as a hobby for funsies. Dexo fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Apr 5, 2024 |
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Apr 5, 2024 14:34
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New funniest possible scenario emerges https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/1776242177963594127
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Apr 5, 2024 16:21
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Dexo posted:We are comparing prospects. Penix's numbers are low compared it the other top prospects in this draft. Two of those prospects in significantly worse situations. Dexo posted:It's fine to disagree with me, as hell I might be wrong, and statistically I will be wrong because it's very unlikely all of these QBs pan out, if I am wrong I'm fine with it because it's something to learn and take something new from. but all I can do is explain to you specifically why I personally feel the way I do about these specific prospects.  Dexo posted:As someone who just went through being extremely wrong about Justin Fields, nd going through that experience, all this poo poo matters once you leave college and get into the league where everything is faster, the windows are tighter and you won't have a unfair advantage in terms of talent disparity or scheme. Dexo posted:If you are unwilling or unable to throw tight window MOF throws in college what do you think happens when you get to the pros and those windows are tighter and accuracy is more paramount… And again I think “unable” is a really strong term to use. The University of Washington’s offense did a lot of stuff but a bunch was predicated on layered flag, out, and heavy cross routes in order to immediately gently caress-up at least one opposing safety. The offensive scheme combined with Penix’s ability to throw accurately and powerfully across the wide college hashes meant that by design most opportunities would not be MOF. And the league clearly thinks this scheme (or parts of it) can work in the NFL because the UW OC is now the Seahawks OC. Dexo posted:You won't be able to just bomb slot fades to Nabers and BTJ in the pros. I agree that it’s unlikely that NFL teams will have such extreme WR talent advantages over opponents as these qb prospects had in college. But for Penix and Daniels in particular I’m not sure how much that matters, for a couple reasons: First: Good nfl teams recognize that in the modern nfl, success is dependent on getting at least a few good pass catchers for their qb. Or having Patrick Mahomes. And some QBs do get to enjoy significant WR talent advantages like Purdy, Hurts, Tua, Burrow, etc. Second: I think Penix’s wr supporting class is getting somewhat overrated. Like yes Odunze is amazing. P and Mc are both going to get drafted somewhere in the middle rounds but they aren’t super stars. Reliable hands and nice movement were useful but it’s not like they were Malik blowing 5 yards past defenders. The throws had to have touch for UW. Dexo posted:To me process, and traits matter more when judging prospects than results. I personally really really don't like dudes with 4 to 5 years of starts who suddenly explode and dominate without a notable change in their process, but have better results that could be easily explained by a surrounding cast of great players. Or being able to out athlete folks in college. I think there’s definitely two different conversations here, one for Daniels and one for Penix because they had different journeys. I agree, process and traits are really important. I tend to think that “accurately hitting your wr in the hands, in stride, perfectly over the defender” is a trait and Penix has it for basically every throw on the field. You and I are on the exact same page regarding suspicion of late bloomers on talented teams that suddenly start producing. For me, the main reason why I’m okay-ish with that for late blossoming for Daniels and Penix is that they didn’t put up merely “good” offenses. They put up POWERHOUSE  offenses. Dexo posted:Once again if I'm wrong I'm wrong, I do this poo poo as a hobby for funsies.  E: seriously, thank you for posting!!! Ornery and Hornery fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Apr 5, 2024 |
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Apr 5, 2024 16:21
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xbilkis posted:New funniest possible scenario emerges Big Penix energy! I thought Atlanta would be a fun landing spot for the Falcons but I’d assumed he’d get nabbed in the second.
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Apr 5, 2024 16:24
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If I were a GM I would only pick good players.
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Apr 5, 2024 16:28
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xbilkis posted:New funniest possible scenario emerges Kirk is the starting QB on that team for 2-3 years. They'd be sitting Penix for a whiiile. I assume this is to drum up trade value for #8 from Minnesota or LV.
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Apr 5, 2024 16:29
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The Falcons picking Penix to learn behind Kirk would make more sense if he was a junior and not a sixth year senior. https://twitter.com/billbarnwell/status/1776267084319629493?t=DRMEddRAbNjdc3nvrlDn3Q&s=19
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Apr 5, 2024 17:02
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Henchman of Santa posted:The Falcons picking Penix to learn behind Kirk would make more sense if he was a junior and not a sixth year senior. Yeah Penix makes zero sense at #8 now that the Falcons have Kirk. lol at Bill’s language there “is Williams a better prospect than Goff coming out? Or other top qb prospects? It’s impossible to say!!!” Needed some justification for his silly thesis. I also don’t particularly care about data from a decade ago, much less decades plural ago. Ornery and Hornery fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Apr 5, 2024 |
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Apr 5, 2024 17:05
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Re: Fields being hosed by the Bears. That's partially true. But that narrative is over stated. The hesitation and late throws, and the inability to deal with pressure showed up. And turns out is like the thing that carries over from college to the pros is inability to deal with pressure. Two of the worst QB's as far as P2S% rate over the past like half decade or so in college were Justin Fields and Howell. And well they still took hella sacks. I think the Bears situation and line were less bad that reported simply because Justin Fields was incapable of playing on time, and would bail on clean pockets, rather than step up. Justin got hosed, I don't want to make it seem like the Bears put Justin in the best position to succeed, Letting Nagy and Pace move up to draft him was malpractice, and Poles by trying to fix the mistakes of Pace/Nagy hosed him his second year, but his flaws and unwillingness to throw open throws and get off of his first read consistently lead to an offense where so long as you weren't dumb enough to play man against DJ Moore(shout out to the Lions, Falcons, Commies and Cards) you could strangle them and that never changed, There's a reason why Mooney got paid like he did. He had a couple of high profile drops, but man you watch Justin Fields and Bears tape, and focus on Mooney, or any receiver that wasn't the Number one option, or Kmet for the checkdown(that was an improvement this year, he actually got to the checkdown), Mooney early in the year was just running wide rear end open so loving much. By mid season Fields like just never targeted him and Mooney completely checked out. It sucks, because Fields is very smart, and like generally understands offense and how to make reads, but he just looks at consistently hesitates poo poo and doesn't throw it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I63MBuRG83c&t=3s (it's the literal first play) This play is obviously a dramatic version of it, but he's in empty, he knows the Line has 1 less protector than people showing , and he is responsible for one of the rushers. He can't hesitate, he can't move off of his first read, at minimum he's gotta dirt that and go to second and 10. This type of poo poo is just all over his tape, and people blame the Line for it when man if he plays on time he would be fine. And he just so often is looking at the exact right spot, but just doesn't loving throw it. He is infuriating. DJ Moore ate when teams played man because DJ was the first read, and he just shreds man coverage. Kmet ate because if Moore was covered he was the scramble guy and checkdown. No one else, even when they were open got targets really. Fields will do some of the most exciting poo poo in the world, which means he has so many great highlights, but watching that dude play after play after play, and watching the all-22, your opinion of him can just completely crater. Dexo fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Apr 5, 2024 |
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Apr 5, 2024 17:25
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