[P/I] Dear university students, my advice to you is to become familiar with the Quran

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [P/I] Dear university students, my advice to you is to become familiar with the Quran

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(Thread IKs: Zodium, John Charity Spring, really queer Christmas)

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

Al-Saqr posted:

is the human rights council also a powerless part of the UN.

yes it's part of the UN

# ? Apr 5, 2024 13:28

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 15:10

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

Dr_0ctag0n posted:

Wanting to see genocidal psychos get got is psycho poo poo to libs who think these monsters can be voted away.

It's because the deal since 1945 is that the west all agreed on a lie that the Nazis didn't have the enthusiastic support and participation of the vast majority of the German population until, at the earliest, January 1945.

Liberals don't know any better, or... however it is they process information... so have this idea that there are only a few monsters, and thus if everyone votes they can be kept out of power because of the magic of democracy and 50% + 1. If only Germans had realized Democracy Was on the Ballet in the March 1933 election. If only they expressed their democratic will, which was definitely not doing, and materially benefiting from, the Holocaust, no sir, they made that very clear in the rubber stamp denazification hearings.

With Israel, they believe that the typical Israeli is basically good, and so opposes the government's actions. There's another layer of ideology here I can't parse, but essentially they massively inflate the size and character nature of Israeli "opposition", to the point where it's not based on anything they actually see, it's all projection. Israeli liberals must be opposed to the murder of Palestinians (which would really mean opposition to the Zionist project writ large) and therefore, Bibi leaving power would be like a spell being broken.

I would propose this is because "like magic" there were no Nazis in Germany after May 1945. Only, that's because the Germans lost. Until Israel loses, the Israeli population is going to keep supporting this, and keep exercising their democratic will to enthusiastically vote in governments in favour of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e_dbsVQrk4

# ? Apr 5, 2024 13:51

genericnick: Dec 26, 2012

Regarde Aduck posted:

between this and the war in Ukraine its weird how quickly the rest of the west just stopped pretending it wasn't just the periphery of the US hegemony

I mean is it really that weird if you think about it?

Blackrock and it's ilk bought up everything after the 2007 crisis
No company or public agency knows how to do poo poo anymore, it's all international consultants.
If you have a phone you have easy access to the anglo financial scam system
Literally all journalists destroyed their brain on twitter

the material basis for pretending to be independent is just no longeer there

RealityWarCriminal posted:

how does the average german feel about i/p? is it like the us where the politicians love israel and the public doesn't?

Not sure about Germany proper, but down here it feels like something that's too spicy to have a public opinion on. You could hear a lot of dumbass opinions about the war in Ukraine if you went out drinking with guys from work, but I don't think anyone brought up Israel on their own initiative. Even the Austrian communist party has only been tiptoeing towards a more Israel-critic position.

# ? Apr 5, 2024 13:54

Grimson: Dec 16, 2004

Mr SuperAwesome posted:

good news, the IDF has investigated and found that a couple of guys were responsible for the dead aid workers accident, and promptly fired them. glad to see the swift action and that no more civilians will be hurt in the future

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/apr/05/middle-east-crisis-live-us-welcomes-israeli-plan-to-reopen-erez-crossing-for-gaza-aid

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

"The army said the colonel and the major were dismissed, while three other officers were reprimanded."

Since this is the IDF, this is like when we throw a corporal under the bus.

not fired or dismissed from the army, mind you. just dismissed from that specific posting.

the only people to face any sort of real punishment in the idf continue to be the two people who got 20 days in prison for cooking up hot dogs during the sabbath or w/e it was

# ? Apr 5, 2024 13:55

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

I thought the KPO was good (and doing pretty well lately)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTi5LS1vGPg

Here's a little tip: in any military on the planet, insubordination - of any kind, say making hot dogs when it's prohibited - is relentlessly punished. Reassigning someone is not what you do if there was actual insubordination.

Befehl ist Befehl.

# ? Apr 5, 2024 13:56

fuctifino: Jun 11, 2001

An update on the recent UK direct action:

A youtube 'auditor' visited the the Teledyne factory in Shipley. The protesters were successful in closing at least half the factory down, and there's been a hell of a lot of rain enter the building since the extra ventilation holes were created. The company assembles specialist electronic devices, so I can't think the water ingress will have done the place any good.

Teledyne is a huge company, and I'm sure they can quickly set up shop elsewhere. but even a delay of a few days is a massive victory imo.

fuctifino has issued a correction as of 14:09 on Apr 5, 2024

# ? Apr 5, 2024 13:59

Atrocious Joe: Sep 2, 2011

Maya Fey posted:

https://twitter.com/NorwayMFA/status/1775807952814747887

only country to do so btw

One of the few countries in the global North maybe

Russia called a UN security council meeting, and most countries besides the US, UK, and France criticized Israel. Words are cheap without action to back it up, but Israel is being condemned around the globe.

https://twitter.com/BTnewsroom/status/1775708450787348765?t=gEoNsnF23w9zpsjFR4I6yA&s=19

https://twitter.com/EmbaCubaIran/status/1775108463783293304?t=uHdvsJS23gDEvuAuLx4N4w&s=19

# ? Apr 5, 2024 14:02

Atrocious Joe: Sep 2, 2011

https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1776233589329277295?t=Bk65EJ6fYV9kaT5Z5QSU1A&s=19

# ? Apr 5, 2024 14:04

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

quote:

One of the hostages seized by Hamas gunmen during their attack on Israeli communities around Gaza on 7 October was probably killed by an Israeli helicopter gunship that was responding to the attack, the military said on Friday.

Reuters reports:

For several weeks, the military has been investigating reports that some of the 1,200 Israelis and foreign victims of the attack were killed by friendly fire during the chaos, in which more than 250 people were abducted as hostages.

It said an inquiry into the events around the kidnapping of Efrat Katz, a resident of Kibbutz Nir Oz, one of the communities targeted by the attack, examined a variety of video evidence and testimony of witnesses.

It said the evidence showed that one of the helicopter gunships fired at a vehicle in which gunmen were travelling and which the evidence also suggested had hostages in it.

It said in a statement:

As a result of the fire, most of the terrorists manning the vehicle were killed, and most likely, Efrat Katz ... was killed as well.

The commander of the air force did not find fault in the operation by the helicopter crew, who operated in compliance with the orders in a complex reality of war

It said the investigation showed that the hostages could not be distinguished by existing surveillance systems.

da fwiggin hannibal directive

# ? Apr 5, 2024 14:07

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

genericnick posted:

I mean is it really that weird if you think about it?

Blackrock and it's ilk bought up everything after the 2007 crisis

No company or public agency knows how to do poo poo anymore, it's all international consultants.

If you have a phone you have easy access to the anglo financial scam system

Literally all journalists destroyed their brain on twitter

the material basis for pretending to be independent is just no longeer there

Not sure about Germany proper, but down here it feels like something that's too spicy to have a public opinion on. You could hear a lot of dumbass opinions about the war in Ukraine if you went out drinking with guys from work, but I don't think anyone brought up Israel on their own initiative. Even the Austrian communist party has only been tiptoeing towards a more Israel-critic position.

the international consultants also not knowing how to do poo poo beyond "have you tried cutting headcount" is a fun little extra

it'll always make you more money! in the short term!

# ? Apr 5, 2024 14:11

The Alchemist: Dec 12, 2010

exmarx posted:

complex reality of war

..But the war started AFTER the october 7th, right?

Right?

# ? Apr 5, 2024 14:12

docbeard: Jul 19, 2011

CODChimera posted:

wonder what happened to the old bakeries

the same thing that will happen to the new bakeries

# ? Apr 5, 2024 14:13

The Alchemist: Dec 12, 2010

docbeard posted:

the same thing that will happen to the new bakeries

Pancaked

# ? Apr 5, 2024 14:14

HallelujahLee: May 3, 2009

docbeard posted:

the same thing that will happen to the new bakeries

# ? Apr 5, 2024 14:17

Clip-On Fedora: Feb 20, 2011

Ghost Leviathan posted:

lol if the turn against Israel is celebrities realising they won't be spared

I think it�s this and yes it�s extremely funny.

# ? Apr 5, 2024 14:20

Mushika: Dec 22, 2010

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e_dbsVQrk4

I love this video. I mean, I hate it, but I love it because it just bares all. All of it, right there.

# ? Apr 5, 2024 14:29

PhilippAchtel: May 31, 2011

Grimson posted:

not fired or dismissed from the army, mind you. just dismissed from that specific posting.

the only people to face any sort of real punishment in the idf continue to be the two people who got 20 days in prison for cooking up hot dogs during the sabbath or w/e it was

That guy's pinned tweet

https://twitter.com/reider/status/1712459245076271458

Liberals... *spits*

# ? Apr 5, 2024 14:34

genericnick: Dec 26, 2012

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

I thought the KPO was good (and doing pretty well lately)?

They are, but there's nothing even close to the clear statements you get out of Ireland's Sinn F�in for example. Haven't seen anything official from them using the word genocide. And overall it's not prominent in their communications.

# ? Apr 5, 2024 14:37

The Alchemist: Dec 12, 2010

PhilippAchtel posted:

That guy's pinned tweet

https://twitter.com/reider/status/1712459245076271458

Liberals... *spits*

I agree with his centrist position, USA should abstain from giving missiles and guns to Hamas also

# ? Apr 5, 2024 14:44

Fast Luck: Feb 2, 1988

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

Here's a little tip: in any military on the planet, insubordination - of any kind, say making hot dogs when it's prohibited - is relentlessly punished. Reassigning someone is not what you do if there was actual insubordination.

Haaretz has reported how there's basically free kill zones in northern Gaza. These guys may not have been ordered to blow up the aid convoy, in fact higher ups may indeed be pissed off, but even if so it wasn't done due to "lack of discipline" because it's transparently clear that those operating in the field have official approval to wantonly murder. Palestinian carrying a sack of flour? Let's shoot him. Old lady waving a white flag? Let's kill her. Maybe blow up some schools while we're at it. no repercussions for any of it of course because they've been given a free hand to do it, for the purpose of inflicting terror and further cleansing Gaza of Palestinian life. The fact that these coldly targeted knowingly committed murders in particular are finally shaking Israel's impunity is both a welcome development but also infuriating.

Fast Luck has issued a correction as of 14:51 on Apr 5, 2024

# ? Apr 5, 2024 14:45

PhilippAchtel: May 31, 2011

Fast Luck posted:

Haaretz has reported how there's basically free kill zones in northern Gaza. These guys may not have been ordered to blow up the aid convoy, in fact higher ups may indeed be pissed off, but even if so it wasn't done due to "lack of discipline" because it's transparently clear that those operating in the field have official approval to wantonly murder. Palestinian carrying a sack of flour? Let's shoot him. Old lady waving a white flag? Let's kill her. Maybe blow up some schools while we're at it. no repercussions for any of it of course because they've been given a free hand to do this, for the purpose of inflicting terror and further cleansing Gaza of Palestinian life.

Enlightened shocked liberals: "No, this has to be a mistake. Let's investigate."

Me, a moron: "The purpose of a system is what it does."

# ? Apr 5, 2024 14:48

Probably Magic: Oct 9, 2012; Looking cute, feeling cute.

PhilippAchtel posted:

That guy's pinned tweet

https://twitter.com/reider/status/1712459245076271458

Liberals... *spits*

This is like tut-tutting about Ernst von Rohm's assassination for a couple paragraphs before devoting some sentences about Kristallnacht.

# ? Apr 5, 2024 14:48

Orbs: Apr 1, 2009; ~Liberation~

Grimson posted:

not fired or dismissed from the army, mind you. just dismissed from that specific posting.

the only people to face any sort of real punishment in the idf continue to be the two people who got 20 days in prison for cooking up hot dogs during the sabbath or w/e it was

Such a relief to see the system works.

fuctifino posted:

An update on the recent UK direct action:

A youtube 'auditor' visited the the Teledyne factory in Shipley. The protesters were successful in closing at least half the factory down, and there's been a hell of a lot of rain enter the building since the extra ventilation holes were created. The company assembles specialist electronic devices, so I can't think the water ingress will have done the place any good.

Teledyne is a huge company, and I'm sure they can quickly set up shop elsewhere. but even a delay of a few days is a massive victory imo.

Agreed. The war machine is massive and complex. It will take sustained time and effort to stop completely, but slowing it down even a little bit helps so many people (and the earth).

# ? Apr 5, 2024 14:59

Mandel Brotset: Jan 1, 2024

Al-Saqr posted:

Hey guys a good friend from Hamas dug me a tunnel and we successfully launched qassam rockets and made it back safely anything interesting happen while I was gone?

# ? Apr 5, 2024 15:12

Toph Bei Fong: Feb 29, 2008

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

It's because the deal since 1945 is that the west all agreed on a lie that the Nazis didn't have the enthusiastic support and participation of the vast majority of the German population until, at the earliest, January 1945.

The Devil's Chessboard by David Talbot posted:

Nuremberg, which enshrined the legal principle of personal responsibility for one�s actions, even in war, was a showcase of Nazi denial. When Hitler�s wily foreign minister, Joachim von Ribbentrop, was asked by an interrogator whether he was aware that millions had been murdered in the Nazi death camps, he had the gall to exclaim, �That . . . is an astounding thing to me . . . I can�t imagine that!� It was as if he were suddenly waking from the bad dream of his own life. The defendants had long before abdicated all of their will to the F�hrer. As defendant Wilhelm Frick, the Reich�s minister of the interior, declared in 1935, �I have no conscience; Adolf Hitler is my conscience.�

The most egotistical defendants, like Goering and Schacht, struck defiant poses. At times, Reichsmarschall Goering mugged for the courtroom, laughing at the prosecutors� mispronunciation of German names and puffing his cheeks indignantly when they made errors about the Nazi chain of command.

The Reichsmarschall had not even bothered to run from the advancing American troops in the war�s final days, convinced that he would be treated as the eminent representative of a defeated but noble people. His first hours in captivity surely encouraged his optimism, as the U.S. 36th Infantry Division soldiers who came for him at his quarters in southern Bavaria chatted amiably with him and treated the well-fed Nazi to one of their chicken and rice dinners from a tin can. Goering had no idea that he would be tried as a war criminal. At one point he blithely asked an American commander, �Should [I] wear a pistol or my ceremonial dagger when I appear before General Eisenhower?�

But the Reich�s crimes would not be easily dismissed at Nuremberg. The very name of the city conjured not only Nazi triumphalism, but the race laws that Hitler ordered to be written in 1935�laws that, by criminalizing Jewishness, led inexorably to the butchery that followed. The city and its Palace of Justice had long been drenched with blood. Nine days into the trial, the dead would make a dramatic appearance in the courtroom, conjured in a twenty-two-minute documentary called Death Mills. The documentary was made by Hollywood director Billy Wilder, an Austrian-born Jew who had fled Hitler, who compiled it from scraps of film taken by U.S. Army Signal Corps cameramen during the liberation of several Nazi concentration camps. In his opening statement, Robert Jackson, the chief U.S. prosecutor at Nuremberg, warned the courtroom that the film �will be disgusting and you will say I have robbed you of your sleep.�

But nothing could prepare those who viewed the film for what they would see that day: the piles of shriveled corpses and the walking skeletons that greeted the stunned and sickened American liberators, the mangled remains of someone who had been experimented on by Nazi doctors (�This was a woman,� intoned the narrator), the mounds of human ash to be sold as farm fertilizer, the pyramids of human hair and boxes of gold dental fillings to be sold for wigs and jewelry�the final value extracted from the victims of the Reich. One of the most punishing images was not grisly, but it would stay fixed in the mind�s eye�a close-up shot that lingered on a bin of children�s shoes, well worn from play.

As the film unreeled in the darkened courtroom, low lights were aimed at the defendants so the courtroom could see their reaction. From this point on, there was no place to hide. �The hilarity in the dock suddenly stopped,� noted one courtroom witness. While the terrible images flickered on the screen, one criminal mopped his brow; another swallowed hard, trying to choke back tears. Now one buried his face in his hands, while another began openly weeping. (�These were crocodile tears. They wept for themselves, not for the dead,� observed a British prosecutor.) Only the most arrogant remained impervious, with Schacht, Hitler�s banker, turning his back to the screen, and Goering �trying to brazen it out,� in the words of assistant U.S. prosecutor Telford Taylor.

Afterward, Goering complained that the film had ruined the show he was putting on for the courtroom: �It was such a good afternoon too, until they showed that film. They were reading my telephone conversations on the Austrian [annexation] and everybody was laughing with me. And then they showed that awful film, and it just spoiled everything.�

# ? Apr 5, 2024 15:14

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

Fast Luck posted:

Haaretz has reported how there's basically free kill zones in northern Gaza. These guys may not have been ordered to blow up the aid convoy, in fact higher ups may indeed be pissed off, but even if so it wasn't done due to "lack of discipline" because it's transparently clear that those operating in the field have official approval to wantonly murder. Palestinian carrying a sack of flour? Let's shoot him. Old lady waving a white flag? Let's kill her. Maybe blow up some schools while we're at it. no repercussions for any of it of course because they've been given a free hand to do it, for the purpose of inflicting terror and further cleansing Gaza of Palestinian life. The fact that these coldly targeted knowingly committed murders in particular are finally shaking Israel's impunity is both a welcome development but also infuriating.

Soldaten posted:

How National Socialist Was the Wehrmacht�s War?

The murder of POWs, the execution of civilians, massacres, forced labor, plunder, rape, the perfection of deadly technology, and the mobilization of society were all characteristics of World War II. But they were not new. New were the dimensions and the quality of these phenomena, which went beyond anything previously experienced in human history. In terms of the modern age, new was the revocation of limits on violence, culminating in the industrialized mass murder of European Jews. But it is not our aim here to offer a retrospective evaluation of the character of World War II. The central questions we would pose are: what was specific to the perceptions and actions of German soldiers at this point in time, and what elements can be found in other twentieth-century wars?

These two questions form a prism through which we in the present can look back on the past. And that being the case, another question emerges: what aspects of World War II, and in particular Wehrmacht soldiers� perceptions and deeds, are specifically National Socialist or specific to this particular armed conflict?

Who Gets Killed

On July 12, 2007, two American helicopter crews opened fire on a group of civilians in the Iraqi capital of Baghdad. Among them was Reuters news agency photographer Namir Noor-Eldeen. As a video titled �Collateral Murder� later published on the WikiLeaks website would show,849 most of those fired on were killed instantly. One person, apparently seriously wounded, tried to crawl his way to safety. When a delivery truck arrived, and two people tried to help the wounded man, American helicopter crews resumed fire. Not only were the would-be rescuers killed in the barrage. A short time later, it emerged that two children who happened to be in the truck were also seriously wounded. The attack was launched after the helicopter crews believed they saw people in the first group carrying weapons. When the identification was confirmed, they opened fire, and the rest took its course.

The entire event transpired in a matter of minutes, and the protocol of the GIs� radio conversations is revealing:

00:27 Okay we got a target fifteen coming at you. It�s a guy with a weapon.
00:32 Roger [acknowledged].
00:39 There�s a �
00:42 There�s about, ah, four or five �
00:44 Bushmaster Six [ground control] copy [I hear you] One-Six.
00:48 � this location and there�s more that keep walking by and one of them has a weapon.
00:52 Roger received target fifteen.
00:55 K.
00:57 See all those people standing down there.
01:06 Stay firm. And open the courtyard.
01:09 Yeah roger. I just estimate there�s probably about twenty of them.
01:13 There�s one, yeah.
01:15 Oh yeah.
01:18 I don�t know if that�s a �
01:19 Hey Bushmaster element [ground forces control], copy on the one-six.
01:21 That�s a weapon.
01:22 Yeah.
01:23 Hotel Two-Six; Crazy Horse One-Eight [second Apache helicopter].
01:29 Copy on the one-six, Bushmaster Six-Romeo. Roger.
01:32 loving prick.
01:33 Hotel Two-Six this is Crazy Horse One-Eight [communication between chopper 1 and chopper 2]. Have individuals with weapons.
01:41 Yup. He�s got a weapon too.
01:43 Hotel Two-Six; Crazy Horse One-Eight. Have five to six individuals with AK47s [automatic rifles]. Request permission to engage [shoot].
01:51 Roger that. Uh, we have no personnel east of our position. So, uh, you are free to engage. Over.
02:00 All right, we�ll be engaging.
02:02 Roger, go ahead.
02:03 I�m gonna � I can�t get �em now because they�re behind that building.
02:09 Um, hey Bushmaster element �
02:10 He�s got an RPG [rocket-propelled grenade]?
02:11 All right, we got a guy with an RPG.
02:13 I�m gonna fire.
02:14 Okay.
02:15 No hold on. Let�s come around. Behind buildings right now from our point of view.� Okay, we�re gonna come around.
02:19 Hotel Two-Six; have eyes on individual with RPG. Getting ready to fire. We won�t �
02:23 Yeah, we had a guy shoot�and now he�s behind the building.
02:26 God drat it.

The tragic fate of the people on the ground begins at the moment when a helicopter crew member thinks he recognizes a weapon. From this point on, the group, which the helicopter crews watch from a distance via video monitors, becomes a target, and the intention to focus on and destroy this target is preprogrammed. It only takes a few seconds for other crew members to identify further weapons. Almost instantaneously an armed individual becomes a whole armed group. Equally quickly, the weapon becomes an AK-47 and then a rocket-propelled grenade launcher. When the first helicopter receives permission to attack, the group disappears from view behind a building. At that point, from the soldiers� perspective, the only thing that matters is to get their sights back on their targets, and one of the people deemed to be carrying a weapon is perceived as having fired a shot. Precisely because the group has disappeared behind a building, the U.S. soldiers� desire to �incapacitate� them as quickly as possible becomes overwhelming. Any remaining doubt about whether these people actually are �insurgents� and whether they really are carrying weapons is rendered moot. The soldiers have defined the situation, and that definition calls for a set procedure.

Group thinking and mutual confirmation of what is perceived replaced the factual situation with an imagined one. Viewers watching the video now don�t see what the soldiers see. But the viewer doesn�t bear the burden of having to make decisions. What happens in the video may unfold before his eyes, but it has nothing to do with him. The task of U.S. helicopter crews as well as ground troops, however, is to battle insurgents. Every person on the street is perceived under this condition. Moreover, every suspicion those on the street raise, for whatever reason, carries a fatal tendency to be confirmed by further indications. When a group of people that has seemingly been clearly identified then disappears from view, soldiers perceive extreme danger. From that point on everything is directed toward combating the target:

02:43 You�re clear.
02:44 All right, firing.
02:47 Let me know when you�ve got them.
02:49 Let�s shoot.
02:50 Light �em all up.
02:52 Come on, fire!
02:57 Keep shoot, keep shoot. [keep shooting]
02:59 keep shoot.
03:02 keep shoot.
03:05 Hotel � Bushmaster Two-Six, Bushmaster Two-Six, we need to move, time now!
03:10 All right, we just engaged all eight individuals �
03:23 All right, hahaha, I hit [shot] �em �

Within the blink of an eye, eight people are dead, and one seriously wounded. The attack itself has confirmed the definition of the situation beyond any doubt. A combat situation does in fact exist, whereas before it was simply imagined.

The video caused a sensation when it was illegally made public in 2010, since it depicted American GIs killing a group of defenseless civilians from the air without being in any real danger. Yet upon closer examination it is completely unspectacular. Everything shown happens within the frame of reference �war� and carries a certain degree of inevitability. The �Collateral Murder� video is a perfect illustration that the consequences are real whenever people define a situation as real. The soldiers have a task, and they are trying to carry it out. In order to do that, they see the world through professional eyes. Everyone down below is suspect. Part of seeing the world professionally is exchanging impressions with others, and the tendency is that observations and comments that have been made once will be confirmed. Thus a single weapon becomes many, and passersby become combatants. One can call this phenomenon a �dynamic of violence,� an instance of �group thinking,� or a �path dependency.� In practice, all these elements come together with fatal consequences for eleven people within the space of a few minutes.

But the procedure is by no means over when the targets are destroyed. On the contrary, the soldiers take stock of their work:

04:31 Oh, yeah, look at those dead bastards.
04:36 Nice �
04:44 Nice.
04:47 Good shoot.
04:48 Thank you.
What might appear to outsiders, and the media who reported on the video, as sheer cynicism is nothing other than professional acknowledgment after a job well done. The soldiers� mutual congratulations once again make it clear that, from their perspective, they have destroyed completely legitimate targets.

The other side�s casualties are almost always regarded as fighters, partisans, terrorists, or insurgents. We recall here the rule among U.S. troops from the Vietnam War �If it�s dead and Vietnamese, it�s Vietcong,� as well as the Wehrmacht soldiers who justified killing women and children by saying they were �partisans.� It is the violent act following the definition that confirms the definition�s accuracy. In this way, violence serves as proof that one has correctly assessed a situation. The �Collateral Murder� video clearly illustrates how violence transforms a murky situation, in which men suffer from a lack of orientation and don�t know what to do, into something crystal clear. When all the targets are dead, order has been restored. Once the procedure has been set in motion, any further details will be seen in light of the original definition. The delivery truck with the men who are trying to help the wounded civilians to safety is an enemy vehicle. And as a logical extension, the would-be rescuers are further terrorists.

Even the fact that there were children in the vehicle, who were badly wounded by American gunfire, can be made to confirm the original definition of the situation:

17:04 Roger, we need, we need a uh to evac [evacuate] this child. Ah, she�s got a uh, she�s got a wound to the belly.
17:10 I can�t do anything here. She needs to get evaced �
17:46 Well it�s their fault for bringing their kids into a battle.
17:48 That�s right.
We see how enormous the power of definition is. In this case, child casualties are not even considered collateral damage, let alone evidence of a grievous or indeed any mistake made by the U.S. helicopter crews. The wounded children are just one more piece of evidence of how perfidious the �insurgents� are since they don�t even hesitate to take their kids into battle.

The Definition of Enemies

At one point in the �Collateral Murder� video, one of the helicopter gunners says of the injured man trying to crawl away, �Come on, buddy. All you gotta do is pick up a weapon.� Here, too, we see the convergence of violence and the confirmation that it was justified. The gunner wants the man to behave according to the soldiers� definition of the situation, as an insurgent, so that they can kill him. We observed the same mode of self-fulfilling prophecy in relation to World War II soldiers� treatment of supposed partisans. In that case, it was the ammunition allegedly found on victims that justified executing them as �terrorists.�

This is a general characteristic of violence in war. The behavior of those defined as the �enemies� confirms the legitimacy of that designation. This has nothing to do with stereotypes, prejudices, or �worldviews.� The only characteristic of �target persons� that counts is that they pose a threat. Any indication to that effect provides sufficient reason to kill. In the Vietnam War, soldiers feared that even babies could be carrying concealed hand grenades. In World War II, children could be considered partisans, just as in the Iraq War they could be regarded as insurgents.

In a voluminous study of the dynamic of violence in the Vietnam War, historian Bernd Greiner cited a series of examples of the �self-evident� identification of enemies. The simplest one was that anyone who tried to flee was automatically an enemy who should be shot. The attempt to escape confirmed suspicions that an individual was a Vietcong. Somewhat more complicated is the discovery of �evidence.� When examining the surveillance protocols, we highlighted the story of the presence of ammunition being used to distinguish supposed partisans from civilians. The same procedure, however illogical it was, was applied in the Vietnam War, where GIs sometimes razed villages in which they had previously deposited Soviet-made ammunition as proof of a Vietcong presence there. The U.S. 9th Infantry Division killed a total of 10,899 people but only secured 748 weapons. That suggests that 14 civilians were murdered for every true Vietcong eliminated. As a justification, soldiers often claimed that the Vietcong were killed before they could go get their weapons.

It was difficult for American soldiers in Vietnam to precisely identify enemies since the Vietcong waged a guerrilla war. Not knowing whether they were confronted with incognito fighters, men and women, or harmless civilians, created a huge challenge. The lack of orientation soldiers feel in a �war without fronts,� or what we today would call asymmetrical warfare, underscores the compulsive need soldiers feel to establish certainty, particularly under violent conditions. Precisely in situations in which soldiers do not face standard sorts of battle, but can be killed in irregular attacks, explosive traps, and ambushes, their ability to orient themselves is a precondition for survival. Ambush situations also make soldiers feel helpless. As one present-day German sergeant serving in Afghanistan described it: �If you�re ambushed, things get hectic. You require a phase of orientation. Who is being shot at from where? It feels awful, to say the least. The enemy is always at an advantage since he chose the place of the attack and is familiar with it.� I was also glad if I could alight from my vehicle. You may lose some cover, but you�re a much smaller target. And you can act on your own terms again, decide whether to shoot back or hide.� Only when a situation of clarity has been restored about who the enemies are do soldiers once again feel secure. Fatally, violence is precisely the means by which orientation can be regained most simply, quickly, and unambiguously. A successful act of violence removes the gray areas.

This was the reason why the Wehrmacht most often engaged in acts of extreme violence against innocent civilians in the context of fighting partisans. It is beyond question that the POWs in the surveillance protocols operated under the assumption that in the battle against presumed partisans, one was allowed to kill, burn down villages, and terrorize civilians. The threatening chimera of the �Franc-tireur,� the irregular fighter, had already played a prominent role in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870�71, and it was an established Wehrmacht doctrine to nip any incipient guerrilla activity in the bud with brute force. Thus, internalized cultural factors combined with objective uncertainty to make the use of �ruthless severity� seem unavoidable and normal.

It is unique to the conditions of war that the definition of the enemy justifies all acts taken as a result of that definition. In this respect, the way the Wehrmacht waged war was no different from the way many fighting forces have. This perspective applies equally to war between sovereign states and asymmetrical warfare. The parties at war have the right to define who is and isn�t an enemy. The perennial argument that one was only trying to defend oneself against an enemy bent on world domination or enamored of senseless violence is a standard element of war crimes trials or interviews and personal testimonies. It�s the excuse perpetrators use to justify why they did certain things. At the moment when violence occurs, though, it needs no justification. Or as the leader of a German mobile medical unit in Afghanistan formulated things: �You feel great rage in battle. You don�t have much time to think. That only comes later.�

The decisive point in the example of the U.S. helicopter crews� behavior is this: entirely unrelated to historical, cultural, and political circumstances, the definition of a specific situation and all the actors present in it establishes the frame of reference for everything that happens subsequently. Group thinking and the dynamic force of unfolding violence ensure that the ending is almost always deadly.

Revenge For What Was and Could Be Done to US

The analogy of killing can be extended by definition all the way to the level of genocide. The murder of Jews was also defined as an act of self-defense, at least by racial theorists and those who helped arrange the Holocaust. Only here the subject of the fear and aggression was a whole community and not an individual. It is no accident that Jews about to be killed were also described as partisans, that is: irregular enemies it was permissible to eradicate. As one Wehrmacht soldier remarked, �Where there�s a Jew, there�s a partisan.�

Killing under the guise of self-defense also occurs in other cultural and historical contexts. The genocide carried out by the Hutu against Tutsi in 1990s Rwanda was preceded by forms of perception and interpretation that American historian Alison Des Forges vividly described as �accusation in a mirror.� In a kind of putative genocidal fantasy, one side accuses the other of planning to completely annihilate it. This schema of mirror-image accusations is not just a psychosocial phenomenon. It is also an explicitly promoted propaganda method. With the help of this technique, as one source quoted by Des Forges asserts, �the side actually terrorizing the other will accuse its enemy of terrorizing it.� The logical corollary to spreading fantastic fears of being threatened is to create a willingness for self-defense among the party that feels itself under threat. Every form of murderous attack and systematic annihilation can also be perceived as a necessary act of self-defense.

This emerges very tangibly in the motif of �revenge� that plays such a prominent role in narratives of war, irrespective of cultural, historical, or geographical context. Indeed, we have to speak of a narrative trope here. The basic story, as exemplified in countless novels, films, and oral war stories, begins with a soldier relating how a close friend died in battle in an especially horrible or treacherous way. From that moment on, the story usually concludes, the protagonist decided to pay the enemy back in kind. Occasionally this narrative figure is augmented with a promise made to the dying friend by the storyteller. In any case, personal trauma legitimizes the protagonist�s lack of mercy toward the enemy. It was in this sense that one American soldier in Vietnam told his father in a letter that total destruction was the only way to deal with the Vietcong and confessed that he could never have imagined feeling such hatred.

Psychiatrist Jonathan Shay, who worked with a number of Vietnam veterans, reported that the desire to revenge the death of a buddy inspired some GIs to reenlist for additional tours of duty. One of them was author Philip Caputo: �Finally, there was hatred, a hatred buried so deep that I could not then admit its existence. I can now, though it is still painful. I burned with a hatred for the Viet Cong and with an emotion that dwells in most of us, one closer to the surface than we care to admit: a desire for retribution. I did not hate the enemy for their politics, but for murdering Simpson, for executing that boy whose body had been found in the river, for blasting the life out of Walt Levy. Revenge was one of the reasons I volunteered for a line company. I wanted a chance to kill somebody.�

These sorts of desires for revenge, which ascribe the necessity of horrific and brutal actions to experiences of loss, can be generalized. With allusions to the biblical idea of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, the enemy�s behavior can be defined as a transgression that demands a payback in kind. In World War II, for instance, an American GI wrote home about the requisitioning of German apartments: �It�s a really rough deal and these Krauts are getting a good belly full of their own medicine.� Desire for revenge was one of the central themes in a comprehensive study of American soldiers� attitudes during World War II made by a group of authors under the direction of Samuel A. Stouffer.

Not all soldiers, of course, were able to live out their desires for vengeance against those they considered their enemies. Sometimes, they were hindered by comrades or sudden, unexpected feelings of empathy for the adversary. The desire to perform one�s tasks efficiently can also act as a counterweight, as is evident in a letter from a senior German staff medic in Afghanistan: �At the very latest when the alarm sounds for the second time in a bunker, even the greatest philanthropist will develop desires for bloody revenge. The simplest solution in military terms, the one favored by soldiers here, is a major artillery counterstrike. Technically speaking, this is no big problem. You locate the target, point your guns and fire away. It takes less than a minute. The first time the enemy shelled us they had bad luck, but the Taliban aren�t stupid. The next time they attacked, they used longer cables and fired their rockets from a spot next to a kindergarten.� Yet even such reflections and observations about the potentially self-defeating nature of desires for revenge, comparable to those in all situations of war, underscore the significance of the vengeance motif in the daily lives of soldiers.

Taking No Prisoners

During World War II, POWs were treated in radically different fashions. Some were dealt with according to a strict interpretation of the Geneva Convention, while others were put to death en masse. While only 1 to 3 percent of Anglo-American POWs died in German captivity, 50 percent of Red Army prisoners perished�a figure that exceeded even the high numbers of Allied soldiers who died in Japanese captivity. The Wehrmacht decision to let Russian POWs starve to death, which soldiers discussed in the surveillance protocols, was something that went beyond the normally accepted boundaries of war and can only be understood in the context of the Nazi campaigns of annihilation. That is the reason why German POWs were disgusted at how Russian prisoners were being treated and even sympathized with them. Although most German soldiers never came into contact with German POW camps, many had witnessed the transport of prisoners from the front lines and had a good idea of how captured enemies were being mistreated. The German soldiers remained mere witnesses, though, with scant opportunities for changing what they found objectionable.

The situation was different on the battlefield. Here, practically every foot soldier was an active participant who decided for himself whether or not to kill his enemy. In the heat of battle, questions of whether an enemy taken prisoner would be allowed to live were subject to constant renegotiation. Gray areas could persist for hours or even days, especially when the troops that had taken prisoners became embroiled in new battles.

Depending on the situation, enemies who surrendered were sometimes shot without any further ado. But that was unique neither to the Wehrmacht nor to the Nazi approach to war. Examples of POWs being executed go all the way back to antiquity, although the dimensions expanded dramatically in the twentieth century. In other wars as well, there were standing official and unofficial orders to �take no prisoners,� and even when no such instructions existed, it was often more expedient for soldiers to simply kill enemies rather than have to disarm, care for, transport, and guard them. Reports about such executions often read �shot while attempting escape� or simply �no prisoners taken.� In World War I as well, POWs were killed out of revenge or simple jealousy, since many soldiers resented the fact that they would have to fight on, while the lives of the prisoners were presumably safe�or because keeping POWs was inconvenient or dangerous. The same was true in the Korean and Vietnam wars, and we can assume nothing has changed in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars either.

Situational conditions in war often establish rules that violate those of the Geneva Convention. Soldiers may consider it inadvisable or superfluous to burden themselves with POWs, opting simply to eradicate them. This phenomenon occurred in all theaters of World War II, although with varying frequency. In those areas where fighting was particularly fierce, the numbers of POWs executed rose. Because of the prevailing cult of toughness, elite units were more likely to kill enemies who tried to surrender. The U.S. 82nd Airborne Division in Normandy, for example, did not behave all that differently in this regard than the SS division �G�tz von Berlichingen.�

The greatest eruptions of violence in World War II occurred in the Soviet Union and the Pacific. But extreme violence was also part of everyday life in the relatively �normal� European theaters of war in France and Italy, and it was perpetrated by both sides: � �Even in hopeless situations,� reported American Joseph Shomon, who saw many bodies as the commander of a graves registration unit, �the Germans would usually fight to the last, refusing to surrender. [Then] when their ammunition was gone, they were ready to give up and ask for mercy [but because] many American lives had been lost in this delay, our troops often killed the Germans.� � According to historian Gerald Linderman, the most frequent reason for American GIs to shoot German POWs was to avenge their own lost comrades. But Linderman also cites intentional and not just situational factors. Sometimes soldiers were ordered not to take any prisoners, and they were more likely to execute captured soldiers who conformed to Nazi stereotypes, yelled �Heil Hitler,� or belonged to the Waffen SS. For instance, four years after the fact, Ernest Hemingway still told with pride how he had boldly shot a captive member of the Waffen SS.

To briefly summarize: A lot of what appears horrible, lawless, and barbaric about war crimes is actually part of the usual frame of reference in wartime. For that reason, stories about cruelty don�t attract any more attention in the World War II German surveillance protocols than they do in reports and commentaries by U.S. soldiers who served in Vietnam. Such instances of cruelty rarely seem like anything spectacular to the majority of soldiers as long as they are not called to answer for themselves before a court of law. Such violence is instrumental in nature. It�s hardly any surprise, then, that it occurs in war.

tl;dr, Israel is doing everything that is remembered in western popular memory as particular to National Socialism.

DJJIB-DJDCT has issued a correction as of 15:19 on Apr 5, 2024

# ? Apr 5, 2024 15:16

PhilippAchtel: May 31, 2011

Probably Magic posted:

This is like tut-tutting about Ernst von Rohm's assassination for a couple paragraphs before devoting some sentences about Kristallnacht.

It would be one thing if this was an emotional reaction, disavowed after seeing the imbalance of power laid so bare, but nope, doubled down in January.

https://twitter.com/reider/status/1746533684402905427

People like this seem to be allies, and they might even make points compatible with ours from time to time, but at the base of it, they do not understand power imbalance. They only see the world in "good actions" and "bad actions." So when Hamas responds to violence with violence, that must also be a "bad action."

Hamas could commit the most horrible atrocities - which we of course now know, and in January knew, to be false - and it would not change the fundamental fact that only Israel can end the violence, and so only Israel can be held responsible.

Sam Harris said that the Israels were "made brutal" by the conflict, but this is precisely upside down. That is what makes this Mandela letter so apropos:

Nelson Mandela posted:

I am a member of the African National Congress. I have always been a member of the African National Congress and I will remain a member of the African National Congress until the day I die. Oliver Tambo is much more than a brother to me. He is my greatest friend and comrade for nearly fifty years. If there is any one amongst you who cherishes my freedom, Oliver Tambo cherishes it more, and I know that he would give his life to see me free. There is no difference between his views and mine.

I am surprised at the conditions that the government wants to impose on me. I am not a violent man. My colleagues and I wrote in 1952 to Malan asking for a round table conference to find a solution to the problems of our country, but that was ignored. When Strijdom was in power, we made the same offer. Again it was ignored. When Verwoerd was in power we asked for a national convention for all the people in South Africa to decide on their future. This, too, was in vain.

It was only then, when all other forms of resistance were no longer open to us, that we turned to armed struggle. Let Botha show that he is different to Malan, Strijdom and Verwoerd. Let him renounce violence. Let him say that he will dismantle apartheid. Let him unban the peoples organisation, the African National Congress. Let him free all who have been imprisoned, banished or exiled for their opposition to apartheid. Let him guarantee free political activity so that people may decide who will govern them.

I cherish my own freedom dearly, but I care even more for your freedom. Too many have died since I went to prison. Too many have suffered for the love of freedom. I owe it to their widows, to their orphans, to their mothers and to their fathers who have grieved and wept for them. Not only I have suffered during these long, lonely, wasted years. I am not less life-loving than you are. But I cannot sell my birthright, nor am I prepared to sell the birthright of the people to be free. I am in prison as the representative of the people and of your organisation, the African National Congress, which was banned.

What freedom am I being offered while the organisation of the people remains banned? What freedom am I being offered when I may be arrested on a pass offence? What freedom am I being offered to live my life as a family with my dear wife who remains in banishment in Brandfort? What freedom am I being offered when I must ask for permission to live in an urban area? What freedom am I being offered when I need a stamp in my pass to seek work? What freedom am I being offered when my very South African citizenship is not respected?

Only free men can negotiate. Prisoners cannot enter into contracts. Herman Toivo ja Toivo, when freed, never gave any undertaking, nor was he called upon to do so. I cannot and will not give any undertaking at a time when I and you, the people, are not free.Your freedom and mine cannot be separated. I will return.

# ? Apr 5, 2024 15:17

Mandel Brotset: Jan 1, 2024

Mr SuperAwesome posted:

good news, the IDF has investigated and found that a couple of guys were responsible for the dead aid workers accident, and promptly fired them. glad to see the swift action and that no more civilians will be hurt in the future

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/apr/05/middle-east-crisis-live-us-welcomes-israeli-plan-to-reopen-erez-crossing-for-gaza-aid

sure let�s run the whole cop playbook. looking forward to idf body cams and sensitivity training

# ? Apr 5, 2024 15:20

Rubellavator: Aug 16, 2007

Mr SuperAwesome posted:

good news, the IDF has investigated and found that a couple of guys were responsible for the dead aid workers accident, and promptly fired them. glad to see the swift action and that no more civilians will be hurt in the future

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/apr/05/middle-east-crisis-live-us-welcomes-israeli-plan-to-reopen-erez-crossing-for-gaza-aid

"But the investigation determined that a colonel had authorized the series of deadly drone strikes on the convoy based on one major�s observation � from grainy drone-camera footage � that someone in the convoy was armed. That observation turned out to be untrue, military officials said."

lol their official reasoning is someone saw a gun maybe

# ? Apr 5, 2024 15:30

E2M2: Mar 2, 2007; Ain't No Thang.

Didn't those dudes not actually get fired but just taken off that specific duty?

# ? Apr 5, 2024 15:33

Salean: Mar 17, 2004; Homewrecker

Rough for those guys getting put on "bomb the hospital" detail instead of "bomb aid convoy"

The benefits just aren't the same

# ? Apr 5, 2024 15:47

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

a jordanian went to the border, shot at israeli soldiers and walked back just fine.

======

IDF Radio: The gunman carried out the shooting operation without crossing the border fence and then returned to Jordanian territory

IDF Radio: A gunman came from Jordanian territory and shot at an army patrol without injuries

https://www.aljazeera.net/news/2024...605;&%231606;-2

# ? Apr 5, 2024 15:52

Godlessdonut: Sep 13, 2005

Rubellavator posted:

"But the investigation determined that a colonel had authorized the series of deadly drone strikes on the convoy based on one major�s observation � from grainy drone-camera footage � that someone in the convoy was armed. That observation turned out to be untrue, military officials said."

lol their official reasoning is someone saw a gun maybe

Literally the same reasoning from the Collateral Murder video. "I think I kinda maybe see a gun, probably" when it was a dude's camera.

e: oh lol FF already posted about that at length

Godlessdonut has issued a correction as of 16:01 on Apr 5, 2024

# ? Apr 5, 2024 15:58

mistermojo: Jul 3, 2004

remember when they turned a hospital into a concentration camp and destroyed everything on their way out. I think that happened this week

# ? Apr 5, 2024 15:59

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

It's because the deal since 1945 is that the west all agreed on a lie that the Nazis didn't have the enthusiastic support and participation of the vast majority of the German population until, at the earliest, January 1945.

Liberals don't know any better, or... however it is they process information... so have this idea that there are only a few monsters, and thus if everyone votes they can be kept out of power because of the magic of democracy and 50% + 1. If only Germans had realized Democracy Was on the Ballet in the March 1933 election. If only they expressed their democratic will, which was definitely not doing, and materially benefiting from, the Holocaust, no sir, they made that very clear in the rubber stamp denazification hearings.

Am I wrong in saying that the lib position for the election of 33 was to vote for Hindenberg, the "nice" conservative, and he's the one that later appointed Hitler as Chancellor. The gulf btw the two was imaginary.

# ? Apr 5, 2024 16:01

hubris.height: Jan 6, 2005; Pork Pro

PhilippAchtel posted:

Enlightened shocked liberals: "No, this has to be a mistake. Let's investigate."

Me, a moron: "The purpose of a system is what it does."

# ? Apr 5, 2024 16:03

Blarghalt: May 19, 2010

Al-Saqr posted:

a jordanian went to the border, shot at israeli soldiers and walked back just fine.

======

IDF Radio: The gunman carried out the shooting operation without crossing the border fence and then returned to Jordanian territory

IDF Radio: A gunman came from Jordanian territory and shot at an army patrol without injuries

https://www.aljazeera.net/news/2024...605;&%231606;-2

Remember when the king of jordan cameo'd on an episode of star trek

# ? Apr 5, 2024 16:03

Orbs: Apr 1, 2009; ~Liberation~

https://twitter.com/RescueCare/status/1776225697884750176

# ? Apr 5, 2024 16:06

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

Shageletic posted:

Am I wrong in saying that the lib position for the election of 33 was to vote for Hindenberg, the "nice" conservative, and he's the one that later appointed Hitler as Chancellor. The gulf btw the two was imaginary.

Yes, but that's the point isn't it? What has the gulf between democrats and republicans been since Clinton?

Liberals need to feel like they are acting morally, but they're not interested in actually doing so. Voting for not-Hitler who then appoints Hitler is perfect for them.

German liberals were clamouring for Hindenburg to appoint Hitler and finally "deal with" the KPD, SPD (and Jews). Only in hindsight was this a shock, surprise, betrayal.

lol it's a difference of degree, but not of kind, from Bernie turning around and giving all of those donations to Biden, I suppose.

DJJIB-DJDCT has issued a correction as of 16:10 on Apr 5, 2024

# ? Apr 5, 2024 16:08

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 15:10

Godlessdonut: Sep 13, 2005

mistermojo posted:

remember when they turned a hospital into a concentration camp and destroyed everything on their way out. I think that happened this week

There's even more than one concentration camp!

https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1775871047021068587

# ? Apr 5, 2024 16:09

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [P/I] Dear university students, my advice to you is to become familiar with the Quran

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