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FlamingLiberal posted:So is the RNC is basically not a thing anymore? Pretty much. Trumps gonna rob them blind hook or crook and apparently a lot of gop state parties are out of money already. The gop is gonna get hollowed out and it’s gonna be interesting if they lose a ton of races(state or local) because they don’t have cash.
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Apr 6, 2024 23:43
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Blue Footed Booby posted:Care to give some examples? For "distinctly rural AND democrat", the ones I know talk about stuff like ensuring sustainable hunting, public access to ATV and dirtbike trails and lake beaches and areas to hunt in, keeping out the big chains to preserve local businesses, "responsible gun ownership" (as opposed to those lovely republicans who are cavlier with their guns, although the "responsible" gun owner who associated it with being a Democrat did still have a gun rack on his truck, again I don't know the details), running social services like shipping food out to old people stuck in their homes, one of them was big on unionization and "rural solidarity", loving with people who dumped trash and especially chemicals, and punishing people who broke the rules because "you're hurting all of us with your selfishesness", and being "pro-veteran" and taking care of military soldiers, taking care of the community, and being willing to invite someone who looks hungry over for dinner, and liking specific wrestlers more than other ones. Not that none of this were actually policy stuff, this was stuff they associated with themselves, individually, as a rural Democrat, things they did or tried to do, and not things they expected politicians to do for them, but rather doing those things meant that of course they were gonna vote for the Dem because that was just another part of that culture. It meant things like putting some of their land under conservation or at least letting hikers access it (opposing themselves against the sort of folks who post NO TRESPASSING signs everyhwere). It also wasn't universal, but there was quite a bit of overlap. I have no idea how representative these people are - it's only three people (one owns a roofing company, one was a fisherman, and I think the last one was in some sort of trade before he retired?) but that's the sense I got. I also have no idea how to create a modern version of that sort of culture. Discendo Vox posted:No. The "sell" is not the same as addressing needs. It has already been demonstrated that the Democrats do in fact address needs for this demographic. Do not conflate the performance of fear and hate with actual policy. What do you think the "needs" are for this demographic, exactly/ GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Apr 6, 2024 |
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Apr 6, 2024 23:50
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FlamingLiberal posted:His charges are not US charges easily rectified, it's not like Romania has had a useful military since Vlad the Sensible
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Apr 6, 2024 23:55
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Do you think Trump is just going to pay off Romania or something?
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Apr 6, 2024 23:56
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FlamingLiberal posted:Do you think Trump is just going to pay off Romania or something? I was attempting to make a joke that we should invade it and make it the 51st state. My actual serious response is that Tate is hosed, Romania has him dead to rights and is also annoyed with his flight risk antics.
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Apr 7, 2024 00:00
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Byzantine posted:Deep down, the root cause is economic anxiety. Unfortunately it is so buried under layers of bigotry and racism that directly addressing economic matters, while it would eventually fix the problem, will not immediately fix the problem and will not be hailed as a liberator by the fascist rurals. Even if we could remove the layers of bigotry and racism, the current democratic party is incredibly stubborn about holding onto the same economic solutions they implemented decades ago. They refuse to listen to solutions offered by the left and cling on to the half-handed, means tested solutions born from the past century. It seems like a miracle we even got the PPACA at all, and look how difficult it is for Biden to push for student loan forgiveness even without republican stonewalling and their takeover of the judicial system.
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Apr 7, 2024 00:09
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It's very funny that he was somehow able to get out of prison into house arrest, but was then stupid enough to blab to another Chud streamer that he was going to try and leave the country which got him rearrested.
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Apr 7, 2024 00:09
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I haven't read the white rural rage book but it sounds like another version of "land doesn't vote". Rural white people are more likely to be MAGA Republicans than the average American, but most of the MAGA Republicans live in metropolitan areas because those are where people live. I don't think rural white people are any more enraged than you would expect from how Republican they are. Business owners who live in major cities or their suburbs but self-identify as rural because they own a truck are psychos though.
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Apr 7, 2024 00:26
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Goatse James Bond posted:I was attempting to make a joke that we should invade it and make it the 51st state. My actual serious response is that Tate is hosed, Romania has him dead to rights and is also annoyed with his flight risk antics. I guess USA was built on a Roman model. But then it would become USAnia.
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Apr 7, 2024 00:39
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Mustang posted:What do people think about how Democrats should engage with rural Americans? I ask because of this article in Politico: What Liberals Get Wrong About ‘White Rural Rage’ — Almost Everything. The reason he doesn't suggest any real recommendations here is that what he describes here is a fundamentally unsolvable problem for a national party, and it's a lot easier to avoid directly confronting that head-on if he refuses to think it through to those natural conclusions and instead declares that it's someone else's job to figure it out. When this article isn't just repeating different variations on "correlation != causation" over and over again, here's the kind of stuff he's saying: quote:Resentment, instead, asks us to consider how rural voters’ choices are frequently rooted in values and place-based identities that place a strong emphasis on self-reliance, local control and a profound sense of injustice regarding the lack of recognition for rural contributions to society. quote:Taken as a whole, rural voters are not merely reacting against change — be it demographic or economic. They are actively seeking to preserve a sense of agency over their future and a continuity of their community’s values and social structures. Some might call this conservatism, but quote:For many rural residents, the solutions they seek may not always come neatly packaged as government policies, white papers or policy briefs pumped out of a campaign war room. I’ve found that resentments exist because self-reliance and local problem-solving is intrinsic to rural identity, and self-reliance is something by nature resistant to government policies emanating from Washington, D.C. quote:But rural resentment — that sense of place, the anxieties felt about one’s community, the deeply engrained feeling that urban America would erase rural ways of living if given the chance — that is a predictor of Trump support only in rural America. quote:It is also true that federal involvement has a tendency to irreparably change the character of many communities. The scars of federal tinkering — from land use policy to free trade agreements to dead-end retraining programs — are still very visible. He'll occasionally mix in mentions of material concerns, but this is a theme that he Just Keeps Coming Back To: that rural communities fundamentally hate the federal government and do not want any kind of help from Washington DC, which just gets in the way of their "way of life". It's no wonder he doesn't have any suggestions for how the President of the United States could possibly resolve a resentment that could uncharitably be phrased as "gently caress da feds, we want our states' rights back and we want the gubbmint out of our business". If he's right (though, as I'm about to cover, he isn't necessarily right!), then he's basically saying that all the rurals want is tax cuts and deregulation and "their way of life" (something he stubbornly refuses to elaborate on) and they don't care whether they actually benefit from those things or not, and I'm not really sure how the Dems are supposed to appeal to that! Of course, it's very worth pointing out that for all his complaints about how liberal academia doesn't know about rural voters, this assistant professor writing from an ivory tower in New England seems like he might be exaggerating his expertise a little bit! He claims that he lives in rural Maine, but Colby College is in a historically industrial area - one known for factories and mills, not vast fields of wheat and corn. Moreover, it's the second-largest city in Kennebec County, and less than 20 miles away from the capital of Maine (the largest city in Kennebec County). In addition, Maine also has the smallest minority population of any state (94% of the population is white), and the county he's writing from is even whiter than the Maine average (Kennebec County is 98% white!). It occurs to me that any experience and knowledge he's accumulated there might not be too informative about what the vast swathes of agricultural or ex-agricultural land in the South and the US interior might think! On top of that, he only moved there a few years ago, so it's not like he has deep personal knowledge of rural America. If anything, he reminds me painfully of the people who'd move from New England down to Florida or Texas and start wearing big boots and cowboy hats everywhere, talking about how they love to go to the gun range at every opportunity, and so on. They're not Southerners, but they're in love with the idea of being Southern, as filtered to them through the lens of media. I'm feeling the same spirit off this - it's not that he has a deep understanding of rural America, it's that he has a deep love for the rural lifestyle and for the people he's met there, and he wants the people in his social and professional circles to stop talking bad about them. And as much as he likes to point to poll numbers and criticize other people's polling, I notice that he doesn't cite any polling for his resentment narrative. He relies heavily on polls and studies when arguing that others are wrong about what motivates rural voters, but when he turns to what he thinks motivates rural voters, he's suddenly not citing any more numbers! He puts plenty of effort into trying to prove others wrong, but he doesn't seem to try very hard to prove himself right! On top of that, while reading it again to confirm that last bit, I noticed something else important: not only does he not have any suggestions for how Democrats should appeal to rural voters, he doesn't even seem to have any idea how Republicans managed to appeal to rural voters! He claims that the entire motivating factor behind all his research was to determine how rural areas became attracted to Republicans, but at no point in this article does he ever suggest any cause. Nor does he talk much about how Democrats managed to lose rural areas, aside from vague references to "a collective grievance against experts, bureaucrats, intellectuals and the political party that seeks to empower them, Democrats". Doesn't exactly sound like grade-A analysis to me.
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Apr 7, 2024 00:41
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James Garfield posted:I haven't read the white rural rage book but it sounds like another version of "land doesn't vote". Rural white people are more likely to be MAGA Republicans than the average American, but most of the MAGA Republicans live in metropolitan areas because those are where people live. I don't think rural white people are any more enraged than you would expect from how Republican they are. Problem is thanks to the senate land does, in fact, vote 
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Apr 7, 2024 00:58
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James Garfield posted:I haven't read the white rural rage book but it sounds like another version of "land doesn't vote". Rural white people are more likely to be MAGA Republicans than the average American, but most of the MAGA Republicans live in metropolitan areas because those are where people live. I don't think rural white people are any more enraged than you would expect from how Republican they are. Mark Ames, despite and perhaps because he was a horrible person, basically nailed this issue in 2004; twenty years later and I have yet to see a better analysis. quote:It came on suddenly and without warning. gently caress the Democrats. gently caress the liberals. I hope Bush wins. I hope Bush steals another election and urinates into everyone’s wounds… https://exiledonline.com/we-the-spiteful/ the root cause is that a large fraction of Americans are horrible, awful people and so they vote for horrible, awful candidates because they want people like themselves in charge. Trump is those jackasses' avatar incarnate so they'll forgive him anything. There's not much to be done to fight that except to go full explicitly socialist and develop rhetoric that attacks the capitalist class as a class and republicans individually by making the case that they all deserve to get hosed and the democrats are here to gently caress them up. But the Democrats don't want to do that because their funding base is also capitalists.
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Apr 7, 2024 01:10
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Kith posted:It's really not that hard, most of these folks just want to be left alone and allowed to maintain their "traditions". Frame Dem policy as doing less to gently caress things up than GOP policy and letting people live their own lives without interference and you'll get votes. As insane as it sounds, it's mostly just a culture thing - many of them don't care for policy talk at all and just vote based on vibes. The Republican rural voters don't want to be left alone, or rather they interpret "being left alone" is having their want their "traditions" of racism, sexism, transphobia, homophobia, and all around general bigotry to be forced onto everyone else. You're right that they don't care about policy, but the vibes they are voting on is bigotry and hate and are thus unreachable by the Dems Piell fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Apr 7, 2024 |
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Apr 7, 2024 01:20
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Discendo Vox posted:No. The "sell" is not the same as addressing needs. It has already been demonstrated that the Democrats do in fact address needs for this demographic. Do not conflate the performance of fear and hate with actual policy. There are more needs than material things. People have a need to feel like they are valued, respected, and matter to a broader society. That need also doesn't have to be met with a performance of fear and hate, in fact I'd say the opposite- the performance of fear and hate is successful because that need isn't being met. If the Democrats "do in fact address needs for this demographic", they'd already be voting for you. What has been demonstrated is that Democrats address what they *think* the needs of this demographic are and this article says the demographic keeps telling you that isn't what they asked for. Main Paineframe posted:The reason he doesn't suggest any real recommendations here is that what he describes here is a fundamentally unsolvable problem for a national party, and it's a lot easier to avoid directly confronting that head-on if he refuses to think it through to those natural conclusions and instead declares that it's someone else's job to figure it out. The Republicans win elections there and they're as much a national party as the Democrats. There's a strong current of localism throughout the article, but I don't see any reason why that's an unsolveable problem for Democrats. If anything, leaning into it should be easy since the American system was built on devolution of power.
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Apr 7, 2024 01:21
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Dopilsya posted:
""dems are gonna look themselves in the mirror, take a deep breath and tell themselves 'we gotta get more racist'""
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Apr 7, 2024 01:30
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:""dems are gonna look themselves in the mirror, take a deep breath and tell themselves 'we gotta get more racist'"" So according to you, 75 million of your countrymen have no motivation, thought, or creed beyond "racism" that could possibly be appealed to. Well I suppose that's a good demonstration of why you can't win an election.
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Apr 7, 2024 01:39
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Dopilsya posted:So according to you, 75 million of your countrymen have no motivation, thought, or creed beyond "racism" that could possibly be appealed to. Well I suppose that's a good demonstration of why you can't win an election. They are other flavors of bigot too, but yeah. A large majority of Trump supporters primarily care about hating their enemies, which is anyone who is not exactly like them
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Apr 7, 2024 01:42
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Dopilsya posted:So according to you, 75 million of your countrymen have no motivation, thought, or creed beyond "racism" that could possibly be appealed to. Well I suppose that's a good demonstration of why you can't win an election. I mean, Trump voters know what they're voting for. It's not like he's hiding his power level. You don't beat fascists by giving them what they want.
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Apr 7, 2024 01:45
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Piell posted:They are other flavors of bigot too, but yeah. A large majority of Trump supporters primarily care about hating their enemies, which is anyone who is not exactly like them They primarily care about that right now. That doesn't mean they couldn't conceivably, primarily care about something else in the future, if the underlying motivating desires could be met in another way. Some portion of them are probably lost forever, but it is still worth winning over whoever is winnable, and especially winning over people who are still young and have many possible paths they could go down. Hieronymous Alloy posted:You don't beat fascists by giving them what they want. You genuinely have no idea what these people actually want, though, so how could you possibly know? GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Apr 7, 2024 |
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Apr 7, 2024 01:48
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I mean the problem some of these areas are going to have is that places like Arizona or Georgia or Virginia as they urbanize will become more "liberal" and they write their own irrelevance. It should be said that the Democrats reached out during 2016 and said we'll get you funding for retraining, we'll reinvest in these coal towns, we'll do more on heroin treatment and all you have to do is accept is women and people of color maybe your equals. It will require a massive investment in organizing to even have a chance to flip things in these areas.
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Apr 7, 2024 01:49
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GlyphGryph posted:They primarily care about that right now. That doesn't mean they couldn't conceivably, primarily care about something else in the future, if the underlying motivating desires could be met in another way. Some portion of them are probably lost forever, but it is still worth winning over whoever is winnable, and especially winning over people who are still young and have many possible paths they could go down. We do know what they want, they want to enforce their bigotry onto others. It's you, in fact, who is refusing to listen to them and patronizing them and insisting that actually they want something different Democrats do things that help rural voters all the time! It doesn't matter to Trumpists because they just care about hate
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Apr 7, 2024 01:55
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GlyphGryph posted:
I mean, I do. So do you. We all know what they want. They want Trump. They want their perceived enemies to suffer. They want to stay angry all the time and afraid the rest because they watch Fox News all drat day and it's rotted their brains. We all know Trump supporters and none of them are shy about saying what they want, it's just hard to believe what they say because it's so bigoted and moronic and spiteful. People keep doing Trump Diner Safaris because it's too hard to admit to ourselves that Trump voters are just horrible people with goals in opposition to an open society and they must be fought, not persuaded.
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Apr 7, 2024 01:57
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Rural voters correctly realize their living conditions are decaying, but then decide to blame the gays and birth control culture war bullshit for these problems instead of the business ghouls backing the Republicans they vote for, or To make a minor but critical distinction here, rural-identified white people are incredibly sensitive to the idea that that their material conditons/social positions relative to the outgroup are decaying. It wouldn't meaningfully change anything if everyone was moving up, as long as the people they don't identify with were moving up faster than those they did. By definition, anyone else rising up means they are being pulled down. LBJ posted:“If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.”
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Apr 7, 2024 02:13
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Piell posted:We do know what they want, they want to enforce their bigotry onto others. Don't confuse what they are doing with what they want. Do you really think those things are particularly related? Have you had no experience with, like, actual, real human beings, ever? The vast majority of people haven't the slightest clue in hell of what they want. The closest they come is pursuit of something similar to whatever in the past made them feel some inkling of an idea that this might be is. There's no actual understanding beneath it. Sure, as they age, that might ossify, like wagons wearing ruts in the ground, that it effectively becomes what they want, but very few people are like "poo poo, I've thought through all the options, and you know, being a huge racist is definitely the right life choice for me and the best way accomplish my personal goals and fulfill my personal desires". Racism is a solution, a tool, a method for getting something else, that is sold to people, instilled in them (and not accidentally, either), it's not some intrinsic, immutable birth defect like how you're treating it. Hieronymous Alloy posted:I mean, I do. So do you. We all know what they want. They want Trump. They want their perceived enemies to suffer. They want to stay angry all the time and afraid the rest because they watch Fox News all drat day and it's rotted their brains. We all know Trump supporters and none of them are shy about saying what they want, it's just hard to believe what they say because it's so bigoted and moronic and spiteful. We seem to be having a miscommunication based on a difference in understanding between terminal and instrumental desires. There is a difference between wanting something simply because you want it and wanting something because you think it will give you something you want. You get that that difference matters, right? GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Apr 7, 2024 |
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Apr 7, 2024 02:14
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GlyphGryph posted:Don't confuse what they are doing with what they want. Do you really think those things are particularly related? Have you had no experience with, like, actual, real human beings, ever? You're right, it is not an intrinsic immutable birth defect. You're right, they have no understanding of what they actually want! The problem you're overlooking is that they've already decided to ignore facts and evidence and actual policy, and instead focus on hating anyonewho isn't like them. Trump voters are not a loving mystery! There is no secret good policy that will get them to vote for democrats! Dems are the enemy, the ones who are replacing good white folk like you with millions of illegals and forcing your kids to be gay trans people who love to abort their already born babies and want to make every black homeless woman a pilot with no training. Racism and other forms of bigotry is indeed a tool, and its the tool they have welded to their hands in order to try to reinforce their position in the hierarchy and you can't reason or policy position your way into getting them to vote for you because they don't actually give a poo poo about that, they just want to hurt anyone who isn't them and stop them from getting out from under their boot If you want to actually reach rural people, go for the unactivated voters who aren't locked in on Trump, hell go for the neverTrumpers if you want! Trumpism is based in spite and hatred, and is actively opposed to evidence and reason and having actual policies. Piell fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Apr 7, 2024 |
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Apr 7, 2024 02:25
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Piell posted:Trump voters are not a loving mystery! There is no secret good policy that will get them to vote for democrats! Dems are the enemy, the ones who are replacing good white folk like you with millions of illegals and forcing your kids to be gay trans people who love to abort their already born babies and want to make every black homeless woman a pilot with no training. I agree, they aren't. Which is why it's so mindboggling how thorough your commitment seemingly is to not understand them in the slightest, which this paragraph makes weirdly, abundantly clear in ways you also seem ignorant of. Of course there's no secret good policy that will get them to vote for Democrats. Gee willikers, you're acting as if that's a relevation, but the only reason I can imagine you saying that is because you fundamentally do not, in any sense, remotely understand what are very, very easy people to understand.
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Apr 7, 2024 02:30
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Dopilsya posted:The Republicans win elections there and they're as much a national party as the Democrats. There's a strong current of localism throughout the article, but I don't see any reason why that's an unsolveable problem for Democrats. If anything, leaning into it should be easy since the American system was built on devolution of power. I think you completely missed my point, which is two things:
And indeed, the more I read from this guy, the more feel that he actually has no loving idea why Republicans are performing better among rural voters than Democrats are. Just look at some of the other poo poo he's saying during the press tour for his new book: quote:After crunching the survey data, you identify place-based grievance and anxiety as the strongest indicators of being a rural voter. What is place-based anxiety or grievance, and why is it so important? Just look at how often they contradict themselves even in these few questions, and how hard they avoid giving direct answers to these questions. I absolutely do not get the impression that these guys actually have any idea what they're talking about. It just reminds me of the late-wave Trump Safari trend, where the endless lineup of reporters touring Midwestern diners gave way to self-proclaimed Rural Explainers like JD Vance buying themselves 15 minutes of fame by writing tell-all books about ruralness that ivory tower folks could prominently display on their bookshelves to show that they were more informed about the unique rural mentality than their peers.
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Apr 7, 2024 02:32
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Dopilsya posted:There are more needs than material things. People have a need to feel like they are valued, respected, and matter to a broader society. That need also doesn't have to be met with a performance of fear and hate, in fact I'd say the opposite- the performance of fear and hate is successful because that need isn't being met. You are painfully avoiding articulating what these "needs" are. You are avoiding articulating these needs and also ignoring the multiple explanations already provided that are anchored in actual messaging or explanation, which shows that the motivating factor is in fact the performance of fear, hate, and spite. Dopilsya posted:If the Democrats "do in fact address needs for this demographic", they'd already be voting for you. I am not "the Democrats". The Democrats have already been demonstrated to be serving the needs, the actual falsifiable empirically extant needs of the demographic, to the point that the demographic is sometimes caught expressing entirely paradoxical beliefs based on attributing this need satisfaction to false sources. Dopilsya posted:What has been demonstrated is that Democrats address what they *think* the needs of this demographic are and this article says the demographic keeps telling you that isn't what they asked for. The demographic does not in fact need an abortion ban or stonings. What they say they want is not needs.
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Apr 7, 2024 03:00
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Piell posted:The Republican rural voters don't want to be left alone, or rather they interpret "being left alone" is having their want their "traditions" of racism, sexism, transphobia, homophobia, and all around general bigotry to be forced onto everyone else. You're right that they don't care about policy, but the vibes they are voting on is bigotry and hate and are thus unreachable by the Dems it's this exact mindset that's causing the problem, hth
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Apr 7, 2024 03:33
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Maybe if they stopped being bigots we would stop thinking that's what they are. Have they contemplated changing their behavior and being better human beings? Or should we just ignore their hosed up beliefs?
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Apr 7, 2024 03:35
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Kith posted:it's this exact mindset that's causing the problem, hth What problem specifically is "the problem" and what is your proposed solution to that problem?
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Apr 7, 2024 03:37
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Piell posted:They are other flavors of bigot too, but yeah. A large majority of Trump supporters primarily care about hating their enemies, which is anyone who is not exactly like them Exactly. One of the things about these small, isolated communities is their inate distrust of anyone who isn't one of them. Race, creed, beliefs, orientation, etc..., if it isn't in ideological lockstep it's inherently distrusted. Which party better reflects what this base currently looks like and is going to look like going forward? Two guesses and the first doesn't count. The ironic part is that Trump is someone who should fail that test with flying colors. Yet because he acts as an avatar of grievance he becomes someone they can live vicariously through; he's as nakedly ignorant, vulgar, and bigoted as they are. Add in that the Republican base has been conditoned to treat their leaders like a god and Trump becomes what they've wanted since Reagan. If Ronnie had been able to run a third time, both electorally and mentally, it would have been him again. Bush Sr. didn't have the charisma, Bush Jr. didn't have the wherewithal, McCain was too high class and missed his window though they did like his running mate, and Romney was too smooth and polished plus they'd never get past the whole Mormon bit. Trump welcomes the worship and give them explicit permission to give into their base instincts, which overrides everything else.
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Apr 7, 2024 03:39
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Mustang posted:Maybe if they stopped being bigots we would stop thinking that's what they are. Have they contemplated changing their behavior and being better human beings? Yeah the common refrain here seems to be that right wingers aren't responsible for their own horrendous beliefs, it is because the Dems didn't end capitalism that they are just forced to hate women and minorities. It seems a common argument that the only people with agency and who are responsible for their actions are the libs.
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Apr 7, 2024 03:42
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Piell posted:If you want to actually reach rural people, go for the unactivated voters who aren't locked in on Trump, hell go for the neverTrumpers if you want! Trumpism is based in spite and hatred, and is actively opposed to evidence and reason and having actual policies. Yeah even if a place is Trump+50 a fourth of the people there are already Democrats. The rural people who can be persuaded don't want mandatory genital inspections and think it was bad that Trump supporters stormed the capitol. There just aren't as many of them.
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Apr 7, 2024 03:48
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:What problem specifically is "the problem" and what is your proposed solution to that problem? the problem is considering rural americans to be a lost cause because it's hip to carelessly paint them with broad strokes of various prejudices and speak of them as if they were lesser beings instead of realizing that they are just people that, with the proper messaging and outreach and respect, could become better. however it's much easier to give up on them because they're dumb hicks, which the democratic party has been doing for many generations, and the current situation is the result of that. as for the proposed solution: Kith posted:It's really not that hard, most of these folks just want to be left alone and allowed to maintain their "traditions". Frame Dem policy as doing less to gently caress things up than GOP policy and letting people live their own lives without interference and you'll get votes. As insane as it sounds, it's mostly just a culture thing - many of them don't care for policy talk at all and just vote based on vibes. learn their language and loving talk to them, just like any other constituent body.
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Apr 7, 2024 03:53
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Kith posted:the problem is considering rural americans to be a lost cause because it's hip to carelessly paint them with broad strokes of various prejudices and speak of them as if they were lesser beings instead of realizing that they are just people that, with the proper messaging and outreach and respect, could become better. however it's much easier to give up on them because they're dumb hicks, which the democratic party has been doing for many generations, and the current situation is the result of that. Again, you're refusing to understand them. Their language, politically speaking, is anger and spite and bigotry. The claim that they "just want to be left alone" is laughably wrong in what it actually means . That is a catch-phrase for them, and what they mean by it is that they want to be allowed to be racist and sexist and anti-LGBT and anti-immigrant and that everyone should be forced to agree with them about it. That's what "being left alone" actually means to them. There is no "proper messaging and outreach and respect" that will reach Trumpists. Also, there is a conflation between "rural American" and "Trumpists" going on in this thread that I would like to make more clear. There are plenty of rural people you can reach, but you can't reach Trumpists with "proper messaging and outreach and respect" because they don't actually care about policies, don't want outreach from someone who isn't exactly like them, and believe "respect" is complete deference to their hierarchy. You can absolutely reach left learning rural people and centrist rural people and even some right-wing rural people - but Trumpism is it's own thing and they're locked in and even in you could reach some small portion of them it would require giving up on everyone else in terms of effort and money and time and policy decision that is very much not worth it Final Edit: Also, can you give like some concrete thing as how to reach them? You just keep going "there's some way to reach them, just talk like them!" Give me some concrete example of the method and message you think would reach Trumpists Piell fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Apr 7, 2024 |
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Apr 7, 2024 03:56
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Some reactionary sentiment is kinda inevitable in rural areas isolated from cosmopolitan cities but like, that's not the only interest they have. That is the one being exacerbated and exploited by a deliberate right wing media campaign. They're not orcs.
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Apr 7, 2024 03:58
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Piell posted:Again, you're refusing to understand them. Their language, politically speaking, is anger and spite and bigotry. The claim that they "just want to be left alone" is laughably wrong in what it actually means . That is a catch-phrase for them, and what they mean by it is that they want to be allowed to be racist and sexist and anti-LGBT and anti-immigrant and that everyone should be forced to agree with them about it. That's what "being left alone" actually means to them. There is no "proper messaging and outreach and respect" that will reach Trumpists. In the interest of expediting any talking past each other that may be happening, I think when Kith says "learn their language," etc, etc, they're talking about the folks you mention in the bolded package, and not Trumpists. I think they are decrying the exact same conflation of "Trumpists" with "rural Americans" that you mention here.
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Apr 7, 2024 04:12
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fool of sound posted:Some reactionary sentiment is kinda inevitable in rural areas isolated from cosmopolitan cities but like, that's not the only interest they have. That is the one being exacerbated and exploited by a deliberate right wing media campaign. They're not orcs. Let's flip this in reverse - do you think there is any method that a Trump Republican could use to convince you to vote for him? Is there some policy argument or method of conversation that would convince you to vote for him without changing any of his policies towards trans people, asylum seekers, etc? People don't have to be orcs to be unreachable by one group or another
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Apr 7, 2024 04:13
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I feel like it pretty much comes down to "you have to figure out how to stop letting people fund their own news networks to push whatever they want people to believe 24/7". Also you have to actually call a spade a spade. I feel like people seriously underrate the degree to which people believe Republicans are ultimately just a normal political party at heart purely because there are no "serious" authority figures willing to call them out as a fascist cult and demand they be treated as one.
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Apr 7, 2024 04:18
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