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Zeppelin Insanity posted:Problem is that it isn't, though, right? Russia's battlefield performance in no way translates to recognition of it in politics, where everyone still insists Russia is a paper tiger and Ukraine is beating them with a triumph of their will I get what you're saying, and there's truth to it. Still, I feel its a tautology, because the happenings of the war are ultimately what's driving all the political decisions, however crude or detached from material reality (even if its just the perception of whats going on over there).
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Apr 7, 2024 07:11
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It seems like that's the issue. Russia winning has, if anything, added urgency to "Russia can't win", with the added danger that "can't" is being expanded from "is not able to" to "mustn't be allowed to", on the assumption that they have the means to trivially enforce that outcome.
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Apr 7, 2024 07:15
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:Talk about misunderstanding cause and effect These sort of articles are always wrong on so many levels that it's almost impressive. I'm particularly fond of the child like understanding of government spending, where the government has a fistful of money, but is foolishly spending it at the welfare for single moms shop, rather than the tanks and fighter jets shop.
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Apr 7, 2024 08:40
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army can't afford bullets because food stamps turned all of the bullets into food hm, plausible
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Apr 7, 2024 08:57
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If we make more of our crumbling society homeless and riddled with disease, we'll surely get stronger
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Apr 7, 2024 09:07
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If we take away their welfare, our sick and aging population will surely be motivated to get better paid jobs, with more hours, instead. Some of them will even join the army, solving our recruitment issues!
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Apr 7, 2024 09:21
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:It seems like that's the issue. Russia winning has, if anything, added urgency to "Russia can't win", with the added danger that "can't" is being expanded from "is not able to" to "mustn't be allowed to", on the assumption that they have the means to trivially enforce that outcome. buncha idiot failkids trying to convince themselves that their undeserved positions of power and assumptions of inherent superiority aren't falling the gently caress apart around them
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Apr 7, 2024 09:27
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Yo FF can you go and post about the protests against the Holocaust in the Masters of the Air thread in TV/IV real quick? People are spreading the Nazis ruled through terror bullshit, and before that who is to say how much the German citizenry knew bullshit and a breath of reality would be real nice.
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Apr 7, 2024 09:42
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it’s not very nice to try to get FF banned like that
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Apr 7, 2024 13:31
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Is Masters of the Air good?
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Apr 7, 2024 13:54
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No.
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Apr 7, 2024 14:02
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Bar Crow posted:I wonder how much Western military planning is subconsciously based on uncovering ancient super weapons. planning? the dark pyramid beneath alaska has been under us air force control since the 60s
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Apr 7, 2024 14:06
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Blaisedell posted:Is Masters of the Air good? the combat scenes are fine I guess
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Apr 7, 2024 14:10
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That's all I needed to know. I will use my time more productively by playing Death Stranding instead. Thank you.
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Apr 7, 2024 14:22
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:Talk about misunderstanding cause and effect Spending way more on defense and not actually getting that much in return. The real welfare is towards the MIC
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Apr 7, 2024 14:26
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Blaisedell posted:Is Masters of the Air good? awful interesting to see how everything getting worse has affected even the quality of tv shows. Comparing it to band of brothers... everything is so much shitter now. Bad acting, bad cgi, cgi used when practical effects would have been easier AND cheaper, weird ahistorical nonsense. Don't bother.
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Apr 7, 2024 14:51
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blatman posted:planning? the dark pyramid beneath alaska has been under us air force control since the 60s A Colder War
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Apr 7, 2024 15:28
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In Stross's similarly themed Laundry series the UK's survival strategy for the apocalypse involves appointimg Nyarlahotep as Prime Minister.
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Apr 7, 2024 15:34
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FirstnameLastname posted:army can't afford bullets because food stamps turned all of the bullets into food swords into plowshares!!!! 
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Apr 7, 2024 16:01
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the Very Special Black People Episode in Masters of the Air was genuinely offensive and I think the show might have actually come across as less racist if it had simply had no black people in it at all it felt like nothing more or less than what it was, which was a committee-mandated addition to the show that existed solely so the show would not have an all-white cast, and was made with all the care, interest, and effort of ticking off a box on a form Mister Bates has issued a correction as of 16:04 on Apr 7, 2024 |
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Apr 7, 2024 16:02
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Orange Devil posted:Yo FF can you go and post about the protests against the Holocaust in the Masters of the Air thread in TV/IV real quick? People are spreading the Nazis ruled through terror bullshit, and before that who is to say how much the German citizenry knew bullshit and a breath of reality would be real nice. You can xpost or paraphrase what I scribbled down but since I’ve never posted in TVIV I don’t think it’d be smart of me to come in swinging at Spielberg enthusiasts,
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Apr 7, 2024 16:09
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Read the book, or play B-17 Queen of the Skies
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Apr 7, 2024 16:12
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I only saw a few clips, but when the Red Army is introduced, the first thing they do is start shooting surrendering German soldiers, none of them are wearing helmets, and one of them is literally wearing furs on himself. When the crashed pilot sees them, he takes out his pistol but when they finally approach he throws his hands up saying "Americanskii" and "Coca-Cola." It isn't quite up there with Band of Brothers and the Pacific. The episode happens just east of the Oder in February 1945. The temperatures at that point were literally about 40-45f, and the scene was setup like it was happening in Siberia. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 16:18 on Apr 7, 2024 |
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Apr 7, 2024 16:14
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the only character in the entire show who even mentions racism or racial inequality is a Nazi interrogator who is doing it insincerely in an attempt to get a captured black airman to give up intelligence, and he does it in between making racist comments the Nazi looking directly at the camera and calling America racist is then followed up by the black pilot looking directly at the camera and calling America the best country in the world to be black it hit like a punch to the stomach, it is really truly worse than if they'd just had everyone be anachronistically racially progressive and not mentioned it at all (although they also basically did that in the very few on-screen interactions between white and black characters)
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Apr 7, 2024 16:15
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:You can xpost or paraphrase what I scribbled down but since I’ve never posted in TVIV I don’t think it’d be smart of me to come in swinging at Spielberg enthusiasts, What thread did you post the Rosenstrasse stuff in again?
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Apr 7, 2024 16:16
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there is also an obligatory concentration camp visit even though none of these men ever got close to one in real life, which culminates in an extremely weird and unnatural conversation in which our American aviator's first question to a concentration camp survivor is something like 'so where will you go now?' and the guy responds 'Palestine' and that's it, that's the entire scene I literally said 'oh fuuuuck you' to my television
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Apr 7, 2024 16:27
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gradenko_2000 posted:Read the book, or play B-17 Queen of the Skies Target For Today apparently plays better
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Apr 7, 2024 16:47
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Mister Bates posted:there is also an obligatory concentration camp visit even though none of these men ever got close to one in real life, which culminates in an extremely weird and unnatural conversation in which our American aviator's first question to a concentration camp survivor is something like 'so where will you go now?' and the guy responds 'Palestine' and that's it, that's the entire scene spielberg you say?
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Apr 7, 2024 16:49
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lol it was even more on the nose than Schindler’s List ending with “Jerusalem of Gold”. There was also Jewish particularism throughout, with no mention of anyone else sent to the camps. Also, pilots shot down over Germany in late 44, iirc, see cattle cars deporting Jews which had concluded in Western Europe by then.
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Apr 7, 2024 16:56
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the show is awful but it was at least interesting viewing, not really for the story but more for a window into how American pop-cultural memory of WW2 has evolved - and been intentionally shaped - over time. like, Masters of the Air is a propaganda piece, it is every bit as much a piece of propaganda as any directly produced by a state institution has ever been. it's a complete hagiography in which the United States is the heroic protagonist of the entire war, foreign allies are barely present except as women for the American men to gently caress, belligerent assholes for the American characters to fight and establish dominance over, or weak and helpless victims for the Americans to save, and the Soviets get a less humanizing portrayal than the actual Nazis do. the climax of the final episode of the show is a cartoonishly earnest and laughably unrealistic 'America Saves the Day' moment, in which an American POW dramatically pulls down the Nazi flag flying over their camp and tosses it into the crowd, where we get a perfectly-framed shot of the crowd tearing the swastika apart, and then raises an American flag over the camp, which catches the wind and unfurls as dramatic music plays. we are clearly supposed to think this is the coolest poo poo in the entire world. this is, at least nominally, a show about the bomber campaign, mind you
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Apr 7, 2024 17:05
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I thought that Masters of the Air started out quite good but then took a nosedive in quality. This happens frequently with Apple TV shows.
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Apr 7, 2024 17:08
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There’s a huge gulf between this as something like 12 O’Clock High, or The Best Years of Our Lives, which were made by, and for, veterans of the war. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YBOYO4EqubI Veterans of the GWOT are creatively and artistically bereft in comparison, because of changes in American culture since then, the end of the draft, and the lack of mass participation that brought nebbish creatives, sensitive poets and queeny playwrights into the military and then sent them to flourishing universities, as opposed to Sheepdog Black Coffee Hooah guys going to University of Phoenix. Jimmy Stuart flew 25 missions over Germany in a B-24 group, for example. DJJIB-DJDCT has issued a correction as of 17:21 on Apr 7, 2024 |
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Apr 7, 2024 17:17
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BearsBearsBears posted:I thought that Masters of the Air started out quite good but then took a nosedive in quality. This happens frequently with Apple TV shows. I've thought about it and the I think the exact scene where it takes a nosedive is the briefing before the Munster Raid where the bombers are saying things like "My God, are we really going to be bombing civilians?". In the book they were happy to be bombing the Nazis as payback for all the guys lost on the Schweinfurt raid.
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Apr 7, 2024 17:25
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it felt like they frontloaded all the effort and budget on the episodes they released early to reviewers and then the rest of the show was a complete afterthought almost all of the show's action sequences, by runtime, are in the first 3 episodes, and by the end of the show they've largely stopped showing any combat at all and instead just have a voice-over narration tell you it happened offscreen even the Normandy invasion gets about ten seconds of screentime, it's so perfunctory that it felt almost like a joke they squeezed in an offensively bad concentration camp sequence, an entire episode dedicated to the Tuskegee Airmen who otherwise don't appear in the show (the show is racially segregated, lol, we get White People Episodes and a Black People Episode), an extremely weird disconnected sequence involving an SOE agent infiltrating France who then disappears and is never discussed again, a downed-aviator-escape subplot which is resolved in the most bizarre way possible (namely it abruptly stops at what feels like the midpoint and they just teleport back to England), and a lengthy POW camp subplot whose culmination ends up being the dramatic climax of the entire show. all of that, and many of the bomber group's most historically notable missions aren't even shown, they show you the aftermath and tell you that something big occurred offscreen. the early action sequences are actually really good, but they sharply drop off in both quantity and quality - the Tuskegee Airmen action sequence looks like a video game cutscene, and it's also one of the last air combat scenes in the entire show part of it is just that the show is bad, but I think a major part of it is that they really wanted a neat, tidy, straightforward 'America Saves the Day' narrative, and were unwilling to permit even a tiny bit of cynicism, bitterness, moral complexity, or even a hint that anything they did might have been pointless or a mistake. they had to be the heroes and they had to win and everything lost had to be a justified and necessary sacrifice for victory and telling a story is secondary in importance to that. among many other problems with this messaging, it ends up coming across a lot like the show is making an argument in favor of strategic bombing, which is loving bizarre in TYOOL 2024
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Apr 7, 2024 17:41
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BearsBearsBears posted:I've thought about it and the I think the exact scene where it takes a nosedive is the briefing before the Munster Raid where the bombers are saying things like "My God, are we really going to be bombing civilians?". In the book they were happy to be bombing the Nazis as payback for all the guys lost on the Schweinfurt raid. People blame this on “woke”, but the reality is TV writers’ rooms are increasingly attached to a kind of presentism because of the whole “depiction = endorsement” thing. Bridgerton is the perfect example of them literally being unable to conceive of depicting something in the past that would be frowned at now in neutral or sympathetic terms. Tuskegee Airmen is a perfect example because they could have set the show in a 15th Air Force bomb group, that was actually escorted by them and had seen them around (though they would have to depict USAAF bases as segregated and crews as openly racist, so no go there). Instead, because of the choice of source material, and broad American public attachment to 8th Air Force, by sheer coincidence 332nd Fighter Group prisoners end up in the same Stalag. The depiction of British Indian Army POWs and French colonial troops just mixing freely with Americans is… needless to say… anachronistic. The Americans triggered repeated race riots while based in the UK, demanding nearby British towns segregate.
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Apr 7, 2024 17:44
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Important to keep in mind the show was in development hell for like a decade, and it shows in the writing, pacing etc. There is a bottomless chasm of quality between MotA and BoB
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Apr 7, 2024 17:45
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Maybe the US was just a lot more confident in itself in the 2000s when you can have some complexity, and the US isn't necessarily the good guys (look at The Pacific). Now the wagons are circled, and it is pure hearted America versus the baddies (the Russkies may be the worst of them all!).Justin Tyme posted:Important to keep in mind the show was in development hell for like a decade, and it shows in the writing, pacing etc. There is a bottomless chasm of quality between MotA and BoB It is ironic because, even adjusting for inflation, Masters of the Air has a higher budget and has much better access to CGI tech than a show from 2001. Even some pretty important stuff like how the turrets worked supposedly was screwed up. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 17:51 on Apr 7, 2024 |
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Apr 7, 2024 17:45
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Ardennes posted:Maybe the US was just a lot more confident in itself in the 2000s when you can have some complexity, and the US isn't necessarily the good guys (look at The Pacific). Now the wagons are circled, and it is pure hearted America versus the baddies (the Russkies may be the worst of them all!). Imagining American media depicting American soldiers prying gold teeth out of a still living injured enemy soldier in tyool 2024 Btw I've seen masters of the air and it's dog poo poo in every way Imagine making a show about the moral superiority of the daylight "precision" bombing campaign and not alluding at all to the fact that the norden bombsight was a total scam and didn't work But they put vertical sight posts on the powered turret gun barrels and literal furs on the red army guys so you can see the level of accuracy they were aspiring to The Oldest Man has issued a correction as of 17:55 on Apr 7, 2024 |
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Apr 7, 2024 17:52
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https://twitter.com/ettingermentum/status/1776653459791466558
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Apr 7, 2024 17:53
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Blaisedell posted:Is Masters of the Air good? It was okay
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