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Neeksy posted:Sure, I'm glad it exists in the abstract, it's just that the execution is not there. I can get an indie project having the webcomics energy, or not having any ability to write connective tissue between the big moments, but this was A24/Amazon-invested project and I am judging it by that standard. Plus a 10-year development period. Yeah, pretty much. I found the show at best incoherent and unfunny, and at worst just kind of actively offputting.
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Apr 10, 2024 06:22
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Captain Oblivious posted:I’m in the same boat where there are parts of HH/HB that I like, but as a whole it’s trying way too hard to do that edgy teen Newgrounds culture deal that I just can’t.  HH season 1 suffered a bit from operating on an extremely tight time budget that didn't leave things room to breath or get dug into. Folks who love it generally seem to agree it clicks starting with episode 4, then proceeds to knock it out of the park. With the broadly positive reception, they'll hopefully get more slack for next season.
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Apr 10, 2024 06:58
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Cugel the Clever posted:HH season 1 suffered a bit from operating on an extremely tight time budget that didn't leave things room to breath or get dug into. I don't understand this. If you've got less runway then tell less story.
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Apr 10, 2024 07:10
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Open Source Idiom posted:I don't understand this. If you've got less runway then tell less story. They had no idea they were even getting a season 2 until they were in the swing of production, in the streaming age especially anyone who wants to tell a story tries to tell as much as they can before they get cancelled for any or no reason and become yet another cliffhanger never to be resolved.
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Apr 10, 2024 07:31
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I don't really buy the "didn't know if/when season 2" excuse. Like, if you have suddenly found yourself with less time, maybe don't do 2 songs per episode, which are usually about 3 minutes of repeating an idea, which could have better been spent with the characters or making the world make sense. Maybe don't keep adding new characters constantly? It's just bad choice after bad choice when presented with the obstacles. Neeksy fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Apr 10, 2024 |
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Apr 10, 2024 07:42
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Yeah, animation always gets two season orders when the episodes are short. I don't buy they didn't know what they were getting. But, regardless, I just don't think it's a good idea to tell more story badly than less story well. It's not like they had to have all the characters they had. It's a poor choice.
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Apr 10, 2024 07:46
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Neeksy posted:I don't really buy the "didn't know if/when season 2" excuse. I mean, I thought Season 1 was pretty competently written. The story went fast but I didn't mind it and it absolutely had connective tissue between big moments outside like, specifically the last two episodes and even they still had enough between the big moments to understand what was going on and sell the urgency of the situation they'd found themselves in. If you don't like it you don't like it, but it had plenty of heart and quality behind it that made for a very enjoyable show. It's a Disney Musical for adults (and not in a sweary sex-filled way, but in a dealing with adult problems way through the lens of the hyper-reality of a musical), with all the benefits and flaws that implies (and honestly it's a lot better than most of the recent Disney Musicals, I think only Moana and Princess and the Frog of their more modern efforts stand out to me as actually that enjoyable for me). Hopefully now that they've proven their capability to Amazon Prime they'll have a more secure future and the good writing will be given more space to breathe and fill in the slightly lacking between moments. But the songs are often that connective tissue, that's what a musical is after all. You convey a lot of story or character growth in a short time through a song. Neeksy posted:Like, if you have suddenly found yourself with less time, maybe don't do 2 songs per episode, which are usually about 3 minutes of repeating an idea, which could have better been spent with the characters or making the world make sense. Edit: The songs are the character building and world building. That's like, the point of a musical. The world makes plenty sense, the one thing you specifically call out nobody know why people aren't getting re-sorted our how the original sorting happens is intentionally about how arbitrary the system appears to be, and thus how broken it potentially is that it lets Adam stay in heaven, ignoring the stuff around Sinners being redeemed. There are maybe 4 new characters in the back half of the season that are important, and all but one of them actually does in fact need to exist for the story they're telling to be told, are introduced fine and we get enough of them to know what they're about and where they fit with everything else. Otherwise we stick with people introduced in Episode 1-3 the entire time. Edit x2: Like, you're arguing against more or less a basic component of writing a musical, you use the songs to tell character beats and world details. The songs almost all serve a purpose in creating emotional or narrative direction that explains what is going on between the various characters and the story itself. Less songs doesn't improve the writing of the story because they're kind of the medium for the majority character beats. Just from episode 1, we get the premise and the majority of Charlie's initial characterisation and the setting of hell from "A Happy Day in Hell" and we get Adam and Heaven's hypocrisy and feelings on the matter from "Hell is Forever". With just two songs, if you pay attention to them, you get everything you need for the major conflict of season one in an enjoyable medium that fills in plenty of details. Toss in the actual visual elements of the story (Adam performs all seven sins whilst on screen in episode one for example) and it's doing a lot with what little time it has. That's why the whole thing feels frantic and fast, it's packing in as much details and character building as it can in the time it has, it's honestly really impressive how much they managed with the episode count they had and how understandable it ultimately is if you pay attention to the details and the presentation of the songs and visuals as well as the more standard dialogue. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Apr 10, 2024 |
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Apr 10, 2024 07:48
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Lord_Magmar posted:
And yet there appears to be an automatic mechanism outside of any of the characters, even the highest angels that were generated by heaven itself, that does the 'correct' thing and gives sir pentious a new life in heaven, so why did it randomly choose that moment to be correct, when there were no minds changed up there and it allowed all that bad stuff to happen up until now? Where the gently caress is god in this universe where there are hell and heaven-borne beings intermingling with human souls and having birth and daughters and poo poo in the -afterlife-? WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF A HEAVEN OR HELL IN THISE COSMOLOGY? WHAT BEHAVIOR IS GOD TRYING TO ENCOURAGE? WHY IS DOING THE SEVEN DEADLY SINS A PROBLEM EVEN FOR ADAM IN SONG FORM AS A JOKE WHEN IT TURNS OUT NONE OF IT MATTERS? This whole thing would make way more sense if it was not an afterlife, because it appears that the lives before they entered hell don't matter at all and have little bearing on their present situations, which seem to have started and end within hell itself. It's like she wanted two fantasy kingdoms at war with each other in some Underverse and got ethics and theology mixed in and half-baked. Get sent to hell, get new body and superpowers and access to magic and wizardry that makes you badass and rule over an... economy? With, like money and resources and poo poo? Neeksy fucked around with this message at 08:03 on Apr 10, 2024 |
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Apr 10, 2024 07:57
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Neeksy posted:And yet there appears to be an automatic mechanism outside of any of the characters, even the highest angels that were generated by heaven itself, that does the 'correct' thing and gives sir pentious a new life in heaven, so why did it randomly choose that moment to be correct, when there were no minds changed up there and it allowed all that bad stuff to happen up until now? Where the gently caress is god in this universe where there are hell and heaven-borne beings intermingling with human souls and having birth and daughters and poo poo in the -afterlife-? WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF A HEAVEN OR HELL IN THISE COSMOLOGY? WHAT BEHAVIOR IS GOD TRYING TO ENCOURAGE? WHY IS DOING THE SEVEN DEADLY SINS A PROBLEM EVEN FOR ADAM IN SONG FORM AS A JOKE WHEN IT TURNS OUT NONE OF IT MATTERS? I mean we actually do know that performing sin gets you sent to hell and not performing sin gets you sent to heaven. That's actually pretty clear, nobody is in hell who didn't do something bad in life. The question of re-sorting is solved more or less because nobody has ever redeemed themselves yet. The fact Adam wasn't being resorted is the same as the sinners not being resorted. Clearly re-sorting doesn't just happen without a trigger (like say, Sir Pentious dying again in Hell) that hasn't happened before. This isn't like, even a weird detail it's a basic mystery that the setting clearly intends to be a mystery once they knew they were getting a second season. The setting makes sense, it just requires you to engage with it in good faith. God either doesn't exist or we're in a Gnostic situation where God has been usurped by a Demiurge (in this case Sera) who isn't aware they have done so. Sera implies something other than the Angels caused Lucifer to fall for example. People sent to hell aren't being punished because Lucifer gave the gently caress up. The overlords are the result of Lucifer not bothering to rule hell after he got exiled to it. That's like, more or less explicitly on screen. Lilith was ruling hell and clearly wanted the Sinners to be powerful, since she empowered them with her song. Hell is other people, so the punishment is for sinners to torture eachother forever, or at least that's what is happening. It's not half-baked at all, it just isn't yelling in your face but expecting you to engage with the medium and pay attention to details and character beats. The story as presented doesn't work if it isn't about Heaven and Hell and the nature of redemption and sin, and how the afterlife reacts to those things. Again, if you don't like it you don't like it, but it is neither lazy nor badly written. It's just not for everyone and that isn't a flaw. Things can be for a specific audience or written in a specific way that not everyone will enjoy or appreciate. The songs are part of that, they tell a lot of the story, they're not 3 minutes of repeating an idea except like, one specific song Welcome to Heaven is rather intentionally kitschy and empty because it's meant to in part show Heaven as kind of empty and vapid as a place. Edit: If it helps, I don't think you've misunderstood the story, you just haven't liked what it is doing. You clearly are asking the questions the story wants you to ask, just coming to a conclusion that you don't like the show for those questions which is fine. Edit x2: Also on one point who they were before actually does matter, since a lot of the time they're repeating their mortal life in hell just worse. Alastor was a serial killer in life and became worse in death. Angel Dust was a gay mafia prince who od'd. It's not directly on screen, and Season 2 will probably go into it more, but Helluva Boss does have stuff like the teacher showing why the before can matter. Mimzy knew Alastor before hell explicitly as she explains it in another example, as did Husk apparently. It's very much about the idea of "what is an unredeemable mistake, and why should it be considered unredeemable". If it was just two fantasy realms you lose the fact that the Sinners are being punished eternally for something they did wrong, rather than being given a chance to heal and better themselves. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Apr 10, 2024 |
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Apr 10, 2024 08:03
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I guess I just find a heaven and hell that both resemble each other as metropolises with shops and streets and poo poo, with heaven being a kitchy vapid place as a kind of... I dunno boring setup cosmologically. It is also possible that the comedy not really being very good in my eyes makes me less charitable when evaluating story and writing potential. Neeksy fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Apr 10, 2024 |
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Apr 10, 2024 08:15
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Neeksy posted:I guess I just find a heaven and hell that both resemble each other as metropolises with shops and streets and poo poo, with heaven being a kitchy vapid place as a kind of... I dunno boring setup cosmologically. And that's super fine, but it's like that because the whole idea is that "hey the afterlife probably resembles the real world if it's intended to be, or majorly populated, by humans after death". You know what is very different from the real world even if they're still somewhat human-like cities, the other rings of hell that the sinners can't go to but do exist in Helluva Boss. Basically, Heaven and Hell look this way because humans are allowed to influence them and build/enjoy what they want (in their own ways). Pentagram City is a city almost run entirely by the worst humanity has ever produced narratively, with an absentee king and queen. Heaven is run by the "best" humanity has ever produced, and whilst the introduction is intentionally kitschy and vapid, what we see of Heaven is indeed that the majority of people are pleasant and doing their best. It makes Adam and his girls an outlier rather than the norm, and makes you question why he's allowed to be an outlier. Frankly I expect Adam to be back next season in Hell having been re-sorted too. Neeksy posted:It is also possible that the comedy not really being very good in my eyes makes me less charitable when evaluating story and writing potential. Yeah to be clear, I'm not calling you out for not liking the thing, I'm disagreeing that it's poorly written because I think it's written very well, just for a specific audience. Which I'm admittedly like, the target audience because I'm a Disney Adult who likes the humour in both Helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel.
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Apr 10, 2024 08:19
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Why do a whole song saying "this place is vapid" and then say "actually no"?
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Apr 10, 2024 08:20
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Neeksy posted:Why do a whole song saying "this place is vapid" and then say "actually no"? Because the surface appearance of a thing matters? Heaven is presented as effortlessly "clean" and perfect, which comes across vapid and empty. It's only by actually interacting with the individuals that you get to see it's got a lot of personalities and opinions. It's like Hell, on the surface everyone in hell is a loving monster, and heaven writes them off as such. We've been with Hell the entire time so we see a lot more of its internals and spread of personalities. The entire sequence in Heaven is one of expectations and reality being questioned. Charlie thought everyone knew about the exterminations, and whilst she really likes Heaven's looks, has no knowledge of the insides. She's attracted to the empty easy vapid happiness on display, and yet during the trial is positively giddy when she makes them argue and fight over things she hadn't even known were disagreements. Season 2 will almost certainly feature more of heaven and likely balance out the main Hell cast with some Heavenly counterpoints. We already see parts of this with Emily and Charlie, Sera and Lucifer, and funnily enough Angel Dust's sister is in the song. Season 1 is, in of itself, a complete narrative about Hell undoing the (willing) shackles that Heaven placed on it due to Adam's feelings/influence, Season 2 is likely to be the fall-out on both sides of the divide. But they wanted to tell at least one completed story with an ending and they picked the most immediate one. Which is the exterminations need to be solved for anything else to happen going forward without those being a giant executioner blade to the narrative of redemption. Edit: But also that song is easily the one I would in fact cut out of the story as it is the least important one and you could've gotten that across quicker than they did. You've got a point about the introduction to Heaven specifically, the other song in that episode is much better. It's the version of Heaven Charlie dreams about, and the one that she thinks is what she's working towards, yet she actively delights in tearing it down when the time comes because she's a lot more Hellish than she thinks. (She's almost a Disney Princess version of the Anti-Christ, it's funny on a theological level). There are other things I would probably have changed myself if given the "editor stick", the show and writing definitely aren't perfect and there is at least 1 more or less unnecessary character in my opinion, even if I like her. Edit x2: Sorry for the repeated long rambles and half CIA document stuff at times. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 08:35 on Apr 10, 2024 |
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Apr 10, 2024 08:25
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Cugel the Clever posted:As someone who found the 2000s-era Newgrounds / Hot Topic forced-edginess extremely grating, neither show triggered that for me. The shows avoid the casual meanness I associate with those, have a ton of heart, and parse as sincere thats kinda my view. I feel like HH and HB have some edgy as gently caress jokes but its not south park or 00s era newgrounds edgy or mean/grossness. obviously everyone has their own lines but to me neither show ever really crossed them.
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Apr 10, 2024 12:46
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Again this is maybe more of a discussion for the thread (except insofar as the thread is more full of people who are fully on board and this discussion is around whether it's worth the investment at all) But my position is that while Hazbin is some good wacky musical fun, Helluva Boss is some kind of next-level character-development tour de force. Hazbin has the gimmick of being a Good Place riff where all the characters are "bad" in some benign and relatable way so we can see them being redeemed in the end; but Helluva Boss is a whole differently textured ensemble show where the main cast are all decent, compassionate people who care about each other and want to improve themselves (their jobs as hitmen notwithstanding). If you enjoy some rich and textured character portraits and seeing complicated people bouncing off one another, not to mention some of the kind of intricate LGBTQ-flavored romance stories that are usually only the province of niche genre material, it's really some beautiful stuff and I think outpaces Hazbin in viewer satisfaction if not artistic quality.
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Apr 10, 2024 13:30
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Data Graham posted:Again this is maybe more of a discussion for the thread Please, yes
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Apr 10, 2024 13:37
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Change of subject: Has anybody seen Godspeed yet? I think Final Space fans would enjoy it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdbd2kRSzG8 I really hope this one gets a full series.
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Apr 10, 2024 14:31
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gently caress Final Space. I hope every person involved in the show who decided that doing yet another "pathetic loser who Stockholm Syndromes an amazing woman into caring for him" plotline was a good idea gets fired into the sun. Also, the main character was the most obnoxious person in the universe.
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Apr 10, 2024 16:36
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Megillah Gorilla posted:gently caress Final Space. [Enormous tears well up in the corners of Gary Godspeed's eyes as a small orphan is torn limb from limb, reflected in the dewey glisten of his eyes. Manipulative music loudly plays.]
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Apr 10, 2024 16:42
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Megillah Gorilla posted:gently caress Final Space. lol. yeah i never got the hype. plus the whole art style just never clicked with me. i keep hearing it gets good like in season 2 or something though.
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Apr 10, 2024 17:09
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The whole thing of having a silly comedy interrupted with ultra serious drama is really dumb.
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Apr 10, 2024 17:24
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IShallRiseAgain posted:The whole thing of having a silly comedy interrupted with ultra serious drama is really dumb. so its CAD the cartoon?
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Apr 10, 2024 17:33
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I enjoyed it a lot, especially once the frenetic style of the first few episodes calms down. There is definitely a weird combination of "really beautiful background art and character animation" and "goofy dorky flat Family Guy character design" that almost but doesn't quite work, but it sure does support the blend of cornball humor and ultra-serious sentimentalism observation. The whole Titans business is pretty eye-popping. 💀 C L I M B 💀
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Apr 10, 2024 17:40
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Final Space is a show I like a lot but have to be very careful about my mental state when I watch, cus Christ is it dark.
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Apr 10, 2024 17:47
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Megillah Gorilla posted:gently caress Final Space. Full agreement here, I gave the show a full season and it felt like the plot, humor, characters and structure were crowdsourced to reddit. I genuinely cannot think of a worse protagonist in a western animated show, at least not one that we are expected to like as a person. Not only does the show have the trope you call out where some loser aggressively badgers a lady into thinking he's cool, it really feels like the protag is a creater insert and he's trying to force his poo poo on the audience as well. The pilot episode is like being trapped in a locker with a first year improv student. I don't want to take anything away from people who did enjoy it and I'm happy they liked it, but everyone hearing about it deserves context before spending hours on it. Despite the amazing cast and animation, it is a very flawed show for most people. The hosed up, immoral deletion of the show means that the only people who you will ever hear talking about it will probably be fans, and while it is worth taking the time to look at, definitely adjust your expectations to match.
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Apr 10, 2024 20:33
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I'll cop to looking past that part yeah, but it is drat difficult to do. Fuckin Gary is the least cool person in the cast, he is not charming and should not have gotten Quinn's attention any more than Fry should ever have gotten Leela's
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Apr 10, 2024 20:36
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I'll be another one to say that I thought the show had an interesting premise and I do remember liking some parts of Season 1, I must have since I remember finishing it, but dear god gently caress Gary. Every time he was on screen I wanted someone to punch him to shut him up and hoped he would die whenever he was in danger. I couldn't bring myself to check out Season 2 because I can't overstate how much I disliked Gary. I do remember the rest of the cast being kind of interesting.
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Apr 10, 2024 21:15
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I tried season one and also just hated Gary so much I couldn't make it through. Don't really remember anything else besides "annoying protagonist". Does he get less annoying in season 2 or something?
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Apr 10, 2024 21:17
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this gary sounds like a real elfo
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Apr 10, 2024 21:20
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JosefStalinator posted:I tried season one and also just hated Gary so much I couldn't make it through. Don't really remember anything else besides "annoying protagonist". Does he get less annoying in season 2 or something? no
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Apr 10, 2024 21:37
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He's got that "Richard Evans' BRETT HAWTHORNE voice" thing going on
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Apr 10, 2024 22:14
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JosefStalinator posted:I tried season one and also just hated Gary so much I couldn't make it through. Don't really remember anything else besides "annoying protagonist". Does he get less annoying in season 2 or something? Yes, by a lot actually. In fact season 2 is significantly better than season 1 on just about every level. Though if you absolutely hated S1 I’m not sure it will be enough to change your mind. Also, lmao I had no idea opinions on FS ran this hot.
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Apr 10, 2024 23:09
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The only other cartoon I've seen such vitriol towards was Cailou
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Apr 10, 2024 23:34
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I think its because people in this forum hype it up so much.
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Apr 10, 2024 23:58
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Gary's whole gimmick is that, despite the world being an absolute crapsack, he's an optimist. He absolutely believes that his happily-ever-after will come. I can see that becoming a bit polyanna-ish to some.
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Apr 11, 2024 00:17
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I understand if you don't like Gary but Final Space is worth watching for both the Avocato and Little Cato storylines.
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Apr 11, 2024 00:29
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roomtone posted:this gary sounds like a real elfo It is literally impossible to overstate how obnoxious the character of Gary is. You think you can imagine how bad he is, but you're wrong. As much as I hate Gary and dislike the show, I can admit that all the parts and characters which in no way involved Gary had the potential to be good. drat shame the show creators decided Gary was just the funniest thing ever. This: Bifner McDoogle posted:it really feels like the protag is a creater insert and he's trying to force his poo poo on the audience as well.
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Apr 11, 2024 01:22
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Wait, people DIDN'T like monkeycheesepants random protag? Better double down on that.
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Apr 11, 2024 03:38
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limp_cheese posted:I'll be another one to say that I thought the show had an interesting premise and I do remember liking some parts of Season 1, I must have since I remember finishing it, but dear god gently caress Gary. Every time he was on screen I wanted someone to punch him to shut him up and hoped he would die whenever he was in danger. I couldn't bring myself to check out Season 2 because I can't overstate how much I disliked Gary. Megillah Gorilla posted:It is literally impossible to overstate how obnoxious the character of Gary is. You think you can imagine how bad he is, but you're wrong.
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Apr 11, 2024 04:05
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For all I didn't like the first season (and I really don't) I think the show does get better as it goes along. I've read that creator Olan Rogers felt interfered with over the second season, which he wanted to be more serialised than it was, and I agree that it hurts the narrative a bit despite the actual writing improving. But the third season is probably the strongest, and combines the best of both worlds in terms of structure and skill. I still fault the tone, which places a deeply irritating comedy protagonist at the centre of a hugely epic tragedy, for putting me off somewhat. I think it also places the show in a strange place between flippant comedy and deeply sincere melodrama, though FWIW I think it helps emphasise the horror. I think it's an absolute dire shame what happened to the production though.
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Apr 11, 2024 04:30
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