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Disgruntled Bovine posted:I really don't think that's the case. I know this thread is all in on SC being a scam but I think Crobberts is genuinely trying to make what he thinks is the greatest space game ever. Is he skimming more off pledges for boats and mansions than he should be? Probably, but I don't think his intention is to run a grift. I also don't think he has anyone who is willing to tell him he's wrong, so he has the same problem as George Lucas with the prequels or Elon Musk where his bad decisions don't get push back. So you think he's probably skimming so he can have boats and mansions, but it's not a scam or a grift Are you listening to yourself
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Apr 12, 2024 15:44
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Being incompetent and selling your product based off of at best ignorance of how to make the thing despite your best intentions can still be a scam. Well I don't think Chris Roberts started this thing as a scam you can't seriously look at the Kickstarter stretch goals and a lot of the things he promised early on and honestly tell me he wasn't just making stuff up to bring in more money.
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Apr 12, 2024 15:46
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Gerrund_ing posted:IIRC it was more a prettier and open version of Freelancer as the basis of the original pitch. But by the last few days of the Kickstarter they were essentially claiming they'd deliver a AAA quality space sim for under $20 million....at a time when AAA had at least double that budget. It was easy to keep saying yes and let the money roll in , just wave your hands and assign the task to someone The hard part is to actually make it reality
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Apr 12, 2024 15:47
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Disgruntled Bovine posted:I really don't think that's the case. I know this thread is all in on SC being a scam but I think Crobberts is genuinely trying to make what he thinks is the greatest space game ever. Is he skimming more off pledges for boats and mansions than he should be? Probably, but I don't think his intention is to run a grift. I also don't think he has anyone who is willing to tell him he's wrong, so he has the same problem as George Lucas with the prequels or Elon Musk where his bad decisions don't get push back. Originally? Absolutely. Well, with the caveat that he lied in the kickstarter pitch by pretending that what he was showing was his own effort and the currently playable game when it turned out to have been a Crytek demo. But sure, let's chalk this one down to marketing instead of scam. But 12 years after the kickstarter and a huge list of promises, it's kind of obvious to everyone that they are not going to deliver on, let's say, a few of them. And yet there's always a tech buzzword that is going to fix everything, just you wait for That said, at the end of the day, I'm just a clueless observer, so maybe the game will actually ship with 100 star systems, tens of thousands of players in a single shared universe with no shards, private servers, persistent NPCs with a fully simulated real life, an opera house and a modding manual for modders. I'll be happy to hold my hand up and accept that I was wrong.
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Apr 12, 2024 15:49
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The funding goal from $3,000,000 to $4,000,000 is a good example.$3,000,000 posted:Increased community updates at the RSI website. $4,000,000 posted:A new star system will be added to the game for every $100,000 pledged, with descriptions posted to the Comm-Link. So for $1 million dollars extra they thought they were going to be able to add 10 additional star systems and 10 full length single player story missions to the game, as well as mod tools? Keep in mind it's 12 years later and they have 2 partial star systems currently.
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Apr 12, 2024 15:54
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And 200 (300?) times the amount funded.
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Apr 12, 2024 16:04
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Did they seriously promise all of that? lol I hadn't been following the project outside of occasionally seeing funny poo poo about the latest boondoggle up until I first tried playing during a free fly a year ago. Since then I've been more interested but I did not know half of what you mentioned had been promised. My most optimistic hopes for SC would be: 1) SQ42 releases by Christmas 2025, is at least decent, and the money from it goes back into finishing SC. 2) SC releases 1.0 within 4-6 years. 3) 1.0 includes 3-5 complete systems. 4) the systems are populated with in depth story and quest content. 5) the mechanics currently in game plus exploration, base building and crafting are fully implemented and fleshed out. 6) the game continues to be supported with new content for at least 5 years. That's best case scenario as far as I'm concerned. It's probably wildly optimistic but I would be very pleased with that level of completion. I think anything beyond that is incredibly unrealistic, and even what I've listed is unlikely. Disgruntled Bovine fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Apr 12, 2024 |
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Apr 12, 2024 16:04
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Popete posted:The funding goal from $3,000,000 to $4,000,000 is a good example. lol, you just know whoever was writing the Kickstarter was pulling all those system names out of their rear end on the fly
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Apr 12, 2024 16:07
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Disgruntled Bovine posted:Did they seriously promise all of that? lol Yes and that's just one example, their funding page still shows all the funding level goals and as the money goes up it gets progressively more ridiculous what they are promising. https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals Build their own mocap studio! (to be fair they did actually do this) $10,000,000 posted:Cloud Imperium Games will build their own mocap studio to improve the quality of Star Citizen and Squadron 42’s cutscenes. For another $1 million we'll move into a bigger building. $11,000,000 posted:Move Wingman out of the basement! Move CIG Austin to a larger facility that will support expanded development. More room for employees means more man hours spent developing the game. And for just $1 million more a professional sound studio! Oh and why not throw in VR support. $12,000,000 posted:Build professional sound studios. We’ll move Star Citizen’s sound production from a home office to high tech facilities that will give us access to cutting edge sound effects and Hollywood voice talent!
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Apr 12, 2024 16:11
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Disgruntled Bovine posted:Did they seriously promise all of that? lol Not sure how complete/up to date it is, but there's a list of promised features here, with references to the claim (kickstarter, spectrum, youtube, citcon...) for each one: https://starcitizentracker.github.io/.
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Apr 12, 2024 16:23
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Don't forget the modding support! Full VR! Also if this game comes out in 4-6y it's so hilariously outdated that compatibility might be at risk,too.
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Apr 12, 2024 16:25
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https://i.imgur.com/dxPKMa7.mp4
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Apr 12, 2024 16:27
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Wicaeed posted:Am I mis-remembering or didn't they recently have an event where they managed to jam ~800 people into their one existing solar system for their Static Server Meshing PoC? So they are (kinda) starting to reach those numbers It was like 100.
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Apr 12, 2024 18:35
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Popete posted:Yes and that's just one example, their funding page still shows all the funding level goals and as the money goes up it gets progressively more ridiculous what they are promising. The biggest mistake and I’m sure Chris and cronies are to blame , is just because you earn another 1 million that doesn’t make your one time payment to lease a property or buy the equipment to outfit a VR studio mean you’re finished The annual expenses are what kills them Currently along with lack of competent management and good staff
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Apr 12, 2024 18:45
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Blue On Blue posted:The biggest mistake and I’m sure Chris and cronies are to blame , is just because you earn another 1 million that doesn’t make your one time payment to lease a property or buy the equipment to outfit a VR studio mean you’re finished Look at the funding dates on each milestone. They were hitting new milestones almost daily and thus had to keep coming up with new milestones to keep the money coming in. It's pretty obvious nobody was giving it that much thought when they put down "build a mocap studio".
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Apr 12, 2024 18:53
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Popete posted:Look at the funding dates on each milestone. They were hitting new milestones almost daily and thus had to keep coming up with new milestones to keep the money coming in. It's pretty obvious nobody was giving it that much thought when they put down "build a mocap studio". That's the one I do belive they put thought into, as roberts really wants to make movies.
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Apr 12, 2024 18:56
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I'm pretty sure a lot of these stretch goals were the result of coke fueled hubris.
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Apr 12, 2024 19:20
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living the dream
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Apr 12, 2024 20:01
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Are we going to get pet cats in the game? If not this is clearly a scam.
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Apr 12, 2024 20:39
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My take is that it evolved in multiple steps. Kickstarter launch: Aside from being a bit shifty on the relationship with Crytek and how advanced the game /concept is, Chris (& whatever team there was back then) were pretty realistic. "Updated Freelancer / WC for the modern era, single player, some fun physics and 'immersive' elements (ooh! the hands are actually pressing the buttons) with instanced missions and some cutscenes/mild interactivity" makes for a realistic pitch that doesn't sound out of reach. As the Kickstarter went on and the money started rolling in, they kind of lost track of what was possible, with less technical (or people who were technically knowledgeable at best 10 years earlier) people slapping around the extensions to keep the funding rolling. Around here the usual indie / Kickstarter dev spiel of 'plucky developers using money much more wisely than a large corporation' also started to grow. The multiplayer aspects that weren't the focus of the single player game they were pitching initially started to grow, expand, and became the catch-all promise it currently is. After the Kickstarter, Chris & Co thought they could just outsource everything. This led to failures because of course Chris couldn't be satisfied with anything, didn't know how to manage subcontractors and generally the scope of work was so poorly defined nobody could realistically have met all the features promised. Hence the bad 'action marines' or whatever game they quickly shelved. In parallel, Chris' delusions of grandeur and love for filmmaking came back with a vengeance. He had a budget so it was time to spend it. Hammil, Oldman, Anderson... He probably felt justified that so many people supported the game to claim that his writing was good, and any failure of the film or past games was entirely because people hadn't followed his directions well enough. So no need to wait for the script to be finalised, for the game features to be locked in, etc. Just steamroll ahead and start mocap, recording, everything 'fun' where he gets to live the trappings of a successful director. Did anyone start to tell Chris what was possible and what wasn't? I don't know, but he continued to promise anything and everything during this period. AI companions, interactive politics, martian opera performances... They were hiring juniors and yes-men, lots of marketing staff, all kinds of lore, artistic and other nontechnical teams, and benchmarking themselves not only against the biggest AAA titles, but also on what their fans thought should / would / could be possible, sometimes based on wanting to one-up competitors (everything had to be better than Elite) or what are pretty much lies from other studios (yep, No Man's Sky was claiming a bucket load of stuff and dangit, SC would also have it). Anyway, with a growing company, surrounded by stars and sycophants, pledges rolling in... Chris and the other directors felt like they had built a 'successful' company and earned the right for the pleasures that befit successful people! Was this a scam? Not explicitly. But since they hadn't made a game it's perhaps premature to say they're successful. As time goes on, lack of success starts to make to project boring even for Chris & co. The mocap with stars is well in the past, the art work is becoming a bit tedious (I mean, more and more spacecraft, spacesuits, space hot dogs... After a few years even the most passionate person will run out of steam). Now it's just reports every now and then on how much money has been pledged, stupid "progress tracker" stuff that even the most diehard fans can barely muster any interest for... And the game is being played! The ultimate defence against it being a scam is that there is a product. It's not really the product they promised, but it's something. So it's not really a scam by intention, more because they have been dishonest/misleading and... It worked. Ultimately they're getting money at near-record amounts with nothing having changed from previous years. So why bother considering if the game is ready or not. People are playing it, spending money on ships and whatnot, so yeah, in their mind they're successful and deserve the yacht and sunny vacations!
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Apr 12, 2024 20:55
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Shazback posted:So it's not really a scam by intention, more because they have been dishonest/misleading and... It worked. so its a scam
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Apr 12, 2024 21:10
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I get the sentiment that yeah maybe Chris didn't start this thing specifically to rip people off but the fact that even in those early days of Kickstarting funding he was fine promising anything/everything without a thought for if it was possible makes this a scam. Good intentions do not absolve taking peoples money for something you can't deliver on. The fact that they continue to show fake "gameplay" demos at CitCon and lie about the progress they make routinely only reinforces that at this point whatever their initial intentions were don't really matter.
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Apr 12, 2024 21:12
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whoa now, the lying about progress, mansions, and boats dont make it a scam, its a skim
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Apr 12, 2024 22:10
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Worf posted:whoa now, the lying about progress, mansions, and boats dont make it a scam, its a skim if they can skim money off of the project, why not features?
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Apr 12, 2024 22:20
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Disgruntled Bovine posted:Are we going to get pet cats in the game? If not this is clearly a scam. Pets in game was like the 40million? dollar stretch goal so yes!! Scam averted checkmate cuntiflas goonies
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Apr 12, 2024 22:51
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The thing to anyone who hasn't spent the last decade obsessively following this trainwreck... there's just so much that points to Croberts deliberately preying on space nerds. It is impossible to explain. Or hell, even remember. I do believe he wants this game to be made. So do I do. But I also believe he isn't so delusional that he doesn't understand the technical hurdles are basically impossible with the tech they are using. Somebody post the video of Chris "programming" the physics poo poo. Or that one time he tried to play his own game. Or anything from Tony Z. I think above all else he's an egomaniac and he will lie through his teeth to keep the dream alive. Just like his ill-fated hollywood aspirations and failed production company. Chris needs to be in the spotlight. That's what the 700 million is really about. DOMDOM fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Apr 12, 2024 |
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Apr 12, 2024 23:36
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Shazback posted:My take is that it evolved in multiple steps. they are also noticing the problems that all small/medium size companies have when they grow leaps and bounds in a short period of time they bring in head hunters and start to cull the fat, getting rid of people who aren't really doing anything just collecting their pay they were hiring to fill all sorts of voids, and just throwing money at the problem to make it go away, and then some bean counter came along years later and said we are WAY over budget on salaries for what we take in currently, so we need to cut x amount of staffing asap it will happen again if that little round of layoffs we heard about months ago didn't bring them up to even keel
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Apr 13, 2024 02:44
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Blue On Blue posted:they are also noticing the problems that all small/medium size companies have when they grow leaps and bounds in a short period of time I suppose that's true. It's kind of sad that the axe will only ever fall on the promoted baristas and underpaid just-out-of-school coders and the other rank-and-file at CIG, when the biggest part of their many, many problems come directly from the people in charge. Is the Lore Team still there? I've always figured we'll know CIG has fallen rear end-backwards into some kind of fiscal responsibility when they finally realize nothing those guys have produced is ever going to matter.
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Apr 13, 2024 04:35
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Trilobite posted:
if people are literally buying into the lore then theyre probably earning their keep tbf
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Apr 13, 2024 05:17
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I guess. I could imagine the Lore Team defending its vital role in maintaining the money pipeline by waving around charts showing how often the opera house on Mars and the Murray Cup are mentioned by backers, and I can definitely imagine that nobody in management would ever look more closely and notice that all of those mentions are from Pisscat.
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Apr 13, 2024 06:07
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"Lore Team" definitely seems like one of those real-companies-have-this-so-we-should-too things. It's an intangible, and it may well drive sales (no reason to think one way or the other: consider that the average citizen is, by definition, an idiot that is bad with money) but from a realistic point of view I am going to guess the following is true:
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Apr 13, 2024 09:16
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Blue On Blue posted:My limited understanding of this mess is also that , there is always going to be one master server or main central server to control the info going back and forth between all these supposed endless mesh servers right? So notionally this could be done peer to peer so you would not need a controller. You would only need a controller if you didn't trust the nodes, but in this case the nodes are all controlled so you can trust them. If each node maps to a logical area then they just need to know what's entering and leaving thier direct neighbours. This is fairly straightforward for firing shots between nodes, its a lot more complex for 'looking' between nodes. But I think if you were clever about how you laid out your nodes then you could minimise that possibility. So with a static peer to peer node network you could trav huge distances getting passed node to node along the way, you could fire a railgun across the universe. What it doesn't solve is that EvE case where everyone goes to one of the nodes. What they seem to be suggesting is as load on a node increases they will subdivide the node into smaller and smaller parcels and cool that will work. But if everyone in node a 'looks' into node b and vice versa then you have to transfer the entire state from a to b and back again. Completely defeating the point of having 2 nodes in the first place.
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Apr 13, 2024 09:29
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Fidelitious posted:Yes, important to note that it's not just "a city" but the capital of a province with a population of 13 million and home to the extremely well-known Terracotta Army. you are fighting the terrifying and inscrutable Trentons
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Apr 13, 2024 09:48
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Having a whole team for lore for your unreleased game is very funny. Like for years I think Star Wars had a lore GUY, and honestly didn't even really need him.
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Apr 13, 2024 09:56
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All you fudsters with your network calculations are held back by the copper in your walls and bits that have only two states
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Apr 13, 2024 10:12
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Fil5000 posted:Having a whole team for lore for your unreleased game is very funny. Like for years I think Star Wars had a lore GUY, and honestly didn't even really need him. I think the question is if Lore in SC is different than storywriters or it's just a rebrand? Star Wars has the central guy who tries his best to maintain continuity among all the different Star Wars projects but all those projects of course have their own story teams. They certainly blew some amount of money on their languages guy. Completely unnecessary to actually make the alien languages.
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Apr 13, 2024 14:01
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Popete posted:The funding goal from $3,000,000 to $4,000,000 is a good example. Bingo. That's the exact type of poo poo I was talking about in regards to the KS being completely unrealistic after the initial funding goal. I'm honestly baffled at how people saw promises like that and thought, "Oh yeah this is totally doable in 2 years for 1/4 of the budget blockbuster AAA games have." Like it's wild that grown men in their 40s and 50s spent thousands on that poo poo.
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Apr 13, 2024 14:19
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The Lore Team is basically the only team that was able to meet deadlines.
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Apr 13, 2024 16:42
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C-Bangin' it 
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monkeytek posted:So they had a controlled jump from one system to another. Can it handle a large group of ships doing so at the same time, what exactly happens when you reach the max number of that shard does it poo poo you back out at the start point and make up some bullshit reason like warp fatigue? the... it... they're... once the.... 
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Apr 13, 2024 19:01
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Oh I know the answer to this! Ez, it's like in Star wars: the last jedi where they use the space warp against the First Order dreadnought - except in this case the warping object isn't your ship, it's your game and the dreadnought is your computer.
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