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If there's one thing you can say for Sharlayan, it's that they know not to hand out the thing that can destroy the universe to just anybody.
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Apr 6, 2024 06:26
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hopeandjoy posted:Honestly I originally interpreted that as “the Scions published about the events of ShB” but it seems that wasn’t the intent and they instead were trying to keep it under wraps. Still, everything about Alexander and Pandaemonium is presumably Sharlayan scholar knowledge. Isn't Alexander summoned from the basis of a Sharlayan designed Blueprint?
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Apr 6, 2024 07:35
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Lord_Magmar posted:Isn't Alexander summoned from the basis of a Sharlayan designed Blueprint? No, not quite. Alexander was summoned essentially around a Sharlayan building, it's not really clear if the building was all that important. The blueprints in the Enigma Codex didn't have a clear origin, be it Sharlayan or not. And it's entirely possible that said 'blueprints' were a self-fulfilling prophecy anyway. That they weren't actually designed machines for purpose, but an account of Alexander and the things within it from the people that went back in time afterwards.
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Apr 6, 2024 07:59
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Cleretic posted:No, not quite. Alexander was summoned essentially around a Sharlayan building, it's not really clear if the building was all that important. The blueprints in the Enigma Codex didn't have a clear origin, be it Sharlayan or not. Alexander's blueprints have to be a functional time machine because studying them and the frozen Alexander is how the Ironworks in the timeline G'raha came from developed the time travel capabilities of the Tycoon that runs the Crystal Tower. So at some level, Alexander and the Blueprints he was summoned based on creatw a functional mechanical time machine. But Sharlayan itself might never have had hands or eyes on the Codex to record what is in it. I could believe they had at one point done so though. It's like making Creation Magic from a concept crystal, you make exactly what the crystal says when you do it. Rather than the vagueness of faith, it's also why the IlluminatinGoblins weren't tempered. None of them believed Alexander to be a god in need of worship, just a machine they were making without gathering the actual resources. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Apr 6, 2024 |
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Apr 6, 2024 08:20
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I wouldn’t discount the blueprints being a time paradox since Alexander’s creation and Mide and her boyfriend themselves are time paradoxes/create time paradoxes. Time travel in FFXIV seems to create stable time loops with a side of grandfather paradoxes, except for the time it made an alternate timeline.
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Apr 6, 2024 09:00
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hopeandjoy posted:I wouldn’t discount the blueprints being a time paradox since Alexander’s creation and Mide and her boyfriend themselves are time paradoxes/create time paradoxes. Apparently specifically the shard that Mide had through the story ends up going back into the past with her and Dayan when they're expelled from Alexander to found the Hotgo tribe, after which that shard is used as the starting point to build the entire enigma codex (and is eventually the last part left when the rest is destroyed during the raid story).
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Apr 6, 2024 09:24
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Lord_Magmar posted:Alexander's blueprints have to be a functional time machine because studying them and the frozen Alexander is how the Ironworks in the timeline G'raha came from developed the time travel capabilities of the Tycoon that runs the Crystal Tower. So at some level, Alexander and the Blueprints he was summoned based on creatw a functional mechanical time machine. In the Twinning, Tycoon is stashed in a strange space that looks suspiciously similar to Omega’s pocket dimension in the rift, which always to me suggested Tycoon might not be able to exist/function properly in “real” dimensional space.
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Apr 6, 2024 19:12
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I do like in Endwalker that we ended up visiting the heavens (alliance series), purgatory (89 dungeon, the lifestream, ultima thule to an extent), and hell (pandemonium, the thirteenth)
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Apr 6, 2024 19:29
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Galaga Galaxian posted:In the Twinning, Tycoon is stashed in a strange space that looks suspiciously similar to Omega’s pocket dimension in the rift, which always to me suggested Tycoon might not be able to exist/function properly in “real” dimensional space. He's just chilling out in a retrofit room near the CT's core. He's not in some liminal space or whatever.
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Apr 6, 2024 20:28
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We go through the weird green space on the way into Eureka Orthos, so that part's not an addition.
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Apr 6, 2024 21:01
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I kinda figure that it's a case where 'you travel to the past' Do your actions retroactively prevent you from having traveled to the past in the same or similar situation? If yes: new timeline created. If no: stable time loop Alexander specifically wanted a stable time loop G'raha Tia specifically wanted a new timeline And Venat also wanted a time loop. If she'd done anything with the information she got that would have prevented things from happening pre-time travel (Whether that is preventing the Final Days entirely, or closer to modern times, give us enough information to have things go better) she would have created a different timeline. And the timeline where we come from would still be hosed. Because to them, it would mean that the Warrior of Light travelled into the past an then never returned.
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Apr 7, 2024 12:34
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Shogeton posted:And Venat also wanted a time loop. If she'd done anything with the information she got that would have prevented things from happening pre-time travel (Whether that is preventing the Final Days entirely, or closer to modern times, give us enough information to have things go better) she would have created a different timeline. And the timeline where we come from would still be hosed. Because to them, it would mean that the Warrior of Light travelled into the past an then never returned. Actually, Venat didn't want a time loop. The dialog with her before we get the big post-Elpis flashback makes it pretty clear that her angle is 'I'm gonna try to change this, but if I don't, it's on you to save it'. quote:We must find a way to defeat despair. To unite and prepare as many as possible for the struggle ahead. Which makes sense; the events after that point went really bad for both herself and her world, it's only natural that she'd want to try to avert that if possible. Just because you know what future is coming, doesn't mean you can do anything to stop it.
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Apr 7, 2024 12:45
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I think the thing to remember with Alexander is that it didn't have to create a loop: it looked into all possible futures and saw that the ones where it forced a loop were the ideal ones, so I don't think that it would have been impossible for it to manifest actual time line changes if it had wanted to.
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Apr 7, 2024 12:51
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Yeah Alex could have done whatever and that would lead to it burning through the world's aether on its constant time travel bullshit so it created a small loop that essentially locked it temporally and made sure it would be destroyed and that its origins would lead to this exact situation.
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Apr 7, 2024 17:13
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Yeah Alex could have done whatever and that would lead to it burning through the world's aether on its constant time travel bullshit so it created a small loop that essentially locked it temporally and made sure it would be destroyed and that its origins would lead to this exact situation. Yeah, it ran the calculations and realized it was the largest threat to the star and all life on it, so it keikaku'd itself into a time loop where it gets destroyed before it can cause any serious harm.
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Apr 7, 2024 17:48
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Cleretic posted:Actually, Venat didn't want a time loop. The dialog with her before we get the big post-Elpis flashback makes it pretty clear that her angle is 'I'm gonna try to change this, but if I don't, it's on you to save it'. "I pray you walk with me to the end" doesn't necessarily say that to me, but I think I understand your reasoning.
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Apr 7, 2024 17:59
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lines posted:"I pray you walk with me to the end" doesn't necessarily say that to me, but I think I understand your reasoning. >You may find your world to be very different. Or perhaps the erasure of our friends' memories has sown the seeds of a conjunction between us. We cannot know until the moment is at hand. Sounds like 'I might have changed your future or might not have. We can't know.' to me.
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Apr 7, 2024 19:16
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Hellioning posted:>You may find your world to be very different. Or perhaps the erasure of our friends' memories has sown the seeds of a conjunction between us. We cannot know until the moment is at hand. Yeah, that's my reading - but I think in many ways she does appear to act *later* in order to ensure the conjunction (for instance, on the boat at the start).
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Apr 7, 2024 20:27
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She does have the benefit(?) of what? Close to 12,000 years to think about things too? Plus, she may have had foreknowledge of what she was going to do at some points, but she didn't know why she was going to do them until she got there herself, from there she was able to contextualize her decisions and chart her game plan.
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Apr 7, 2024 21:39
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To me, I think the reason she was pleased there eventually was a conjunction is that it means that they only have to solve things once - she had to plan as if we wouldn't come along, she has to plan as if we might gently caress up, but once Endwalker begins that seems to confirm to her that we're in the endgame, which means we aren't dealing with infinite timelines where things might go differently, but a single loop that's locked in. Which, yes, does close off that in some other timeline she manages to save the ancient world, but also means that she no longer has to hold on to the reserve of her power in case it's needed for something else. Once you return from Elpis, of course, she's flying blind, but she's now ready for things. It's one of the things that really endeared her to me: she endures for *so long*, and ultimately she is not possessed of anything other than a mortal mind, whatever form she wears.
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Apr 7, 2024 23:50
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Lord_Magmar posted:It's like making Creation Magic from a concept crystal, you make exactly what the crystal says when you do it. Rather than the vagueness of faith, it's also why the IlluminatinGoblins weren't tempered. None of them believed Alexander to be a god in need of worship, just a machine they were making without gathering the actual resources. I mean Alexander is a primal in that it consumes aether to power itself, but my understanding is that you don't have to personally believe the thing to be a god to be tempered by it. I'm pretty sure Alexander itself just wasn't interested in tempering people. The ascians gave Mide the horn she used in the summoning rite, but I don't think it's clear they were even taught how to summon by them, so it may have simply not been primed to temper people into worshipers, or due to it not be conceived of as a deity that broke the usual impetus in Ascian summoning magic.
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Apr 11, 2024 15:35
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bobtheconqueror posted:I mean Alexander is a primal in that it consumes aether to power itself, but my understanding is that you don't have to personally believe the thing to be a god to be tempered by it. I'm pretty sure Alexander itself just wasn't interested in tempering people. The ascians gave Mide the horn she used in the summoning rite, but I don't think it's clear they were even taught how to summon by them, so it may have simply not been primed to temper people into worshipers, or due to it not be conceived of as a deity that broke the usual impetus in Ascian summoning magic. Yeah, pretty sure that the summoning ritual the Ascians taught the tribes explicitly included a line of code that would compel the Primals to temper folks. However the Alexander ritual was discovered, it didn't include that line of code.
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Apr 11, 2024 16:09
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bobtheconqueror posted:I mean Alexander is a primal in that it consumes aether to power itself, but my understanding is that you don't have to personally believe the thing to be a god to be tempered by it. I'm pretty sure Alexander itself just wasn't interested in tempering people. The ascians gave Mide the horn she used in the summoning rite, but I don't think it's clear they were even taught how to summon by them, so it may have simply not been primed to temper people into worshipers, or due to it not be conceived of as a deity that broke the usual impetus in Ascian summoning magic. I actually feel like Alexander not tempering people makes more sense when you consider Endwalker's reveals. Tempering, at least on the scale we largely dealt with, was essentially the Ascians sabotaging the process of primal summoning, introducing a deliberate fault. And to most of the groups they taught the process to, they never realized it could be any other way. But all those people were religious faiths, who largely take and adapt the answers they find. The Illuminati aren't a people of faith; they're a people of engineering. To them, primal summoning isn't a twisted ceremony, it's a program with a pre-existing bug. And what else is a group of engineers going to do if given a buggy program? They fixed it. EDIT: Whether this or the_steve's explanation works for you essentially depends on if you think the process to summon Alexander was from the Enigma Codex, or Travanchet. It's not explicitly stated either way, but I always assumed it was an Ascian thing.
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Apr 11, 2024 16:10
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Cleretic posted:The Illuminati aren't a people of faith; they're a people of engineering. To them, primal summoning isn't a twisted ceremony, it's a program with a pre-existing bug. And what else is a group of engineers going to do if given a buggy program? They fixed it.
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Apr 11, 2024 16:49
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girl dick energy posted:I like this idea. It also helps explain why The Tycoon that powered G'raha's time travel trip was even capable of being worked on without tempering everyone involved (as far as we know). The Tycoon is not a Primal at all, it's just straight up a piece of tech that the ironworks made based on Alexander and Omega. It's why Alexander has to be real technology too.
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Apr 11, 2024 17:03
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Say. A dumb thought passed in my head. Is the Zorn / Torn Jester girls in Eulmore supposed to be Lyse / Yda's equivalents in the First?
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Apr 13, 2024 18:23
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i think they are an ff9 reference but i also thought of the two women fight in uh ghimlyt dark
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Apr 13, 2024 18:24
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I don't think Lyse and Yda were even supposed to be twins, it's just that Yda hid her face a lot so it was easy to pass as her.
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Apr 13, 2024 18:36
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They’re very much not. Like, isn’t it a plot point that Lyse is at least a decade younger than Yda?
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Apr 13, 2024 18:43
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What if they were Livia and Lucia?
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Apr 13, 2024 18:45
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I also don't think familial relationships carry over between shards.
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Apr 13, 2024 19:50
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The only time they've ever done "shard equivalents" is for goofs.
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Apr 13, 2024 20:12
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Blockhouse posted:The only time they've ever done "shard equivalents" is for goofs. Excuse you, the Mowen Grenolt is the real couple and Rowena Gerolt are the goofs.
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Apr 13, 2024 20:16
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i don't think chai-nuzz being cid is necessarily that much of a goof, but i also don't think there are that many direct shards
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Apr 13, 2024 20:24
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Mister Olympus posted:i don't think chai-nuzz being cid is necessarily that much of a goof, but i also don't think there are that many direct shards That's also just a fan theory not a thing that's actually in the game or supported by any official sources.
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Apr 13, 2024 20:25
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I think souls take a while to be reborn so that would probably mean that most people on the source wouldn't have a living soul partner on the first and vice versa.
Mainwaring fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Apr 13, 2024 |
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Apr 13, 2024 20:47
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I mean, we're also ignoring the *biggest* Shard Equivalent character. Ardbert, anyone? The only one that's directly stated, and not just heavily implied?
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Apr 13, 2024 20:52
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Blockhouse posted:That's also just a fan theory not a thing that's actually in the game or supported by any official sources. Like my Ranjit=Godbert theory
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Apr 13, 2024 20:58
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Ardbert's the only shard equivalent that's not a joke, even if we count Chai-Nuzz (which I do, even if that's not explicit it's clearly a line you're supposed to draw). It's just that sometimes it's not really a purely silly thing and more of a dark irony. Like, it's not a rimshot gag that the First equivalent of the traveling merchants from the ARR opening is harsh, unwelcoming and kind of insane while the Source equivalents were very friendly and welcoming, but you are meant to find the humor in that. But yeah, the game just doesn't do shard equivalents in a Mirror Universe style, that's just not the story we're being told. And I wrote a Cohost thing recently that I think trying to draw those connections is a work thay devalues all the characters involved; I know the jesters don't exactly have much going on, but making them Yda and Lyse shards makes them even less than that, in return for... what, the assurance that only two blond white sisters can exist in this universe?
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Apr 13, 2024 21:04
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There's also Erichthonius and Claudien which is confirmed, but that's a wol-azem type relationship rather than a wol-ardbert one.
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Apr 13, 2024 21:06
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