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i'd note our very own forums already went through a divestment after its owner was deemed odious, and we're all still here posting
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Apr 24, 2024 17:24
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Majorian posted:I think the issue is less that it may decisively swing "leftists" away from voting for Biden, thus costing him the election, and more that it may depress youth turnout writ large, thus costing him the election. correct. nobody is gonna go out and vote for trump over this (unless he vows to undo it, which he will not), but it is very likely to affect youth turnout. tiktok users were already incensed at the mere mention of the possibility of this coming to vote, why the hell would they not be even more pissed when it's signed into law?
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Apr 24, 2024 17:25
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The TikTok ban completely validates the PRC's justification for the Great Firewall. Forget algorithm "manipulation": imagine TikTok content was just straight up produced in China by the Chinese. The US seeking to ban it on the grounds that the existence and influence of foreign media is a threat to national security is the exact same justification used by the CCP
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Apr 24, 2024 17:25
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Yeah I don't think this will be the issue that cost Biden the election, but it is emblematic of how feckless and easy to manipulate the Democrats have become. Just fully delivering another of Trump's policy ideas and handing the keys to a key propaganda channel to whichever right wing billionaire finds the change in his couch cushions, and all it cost them was the principle of free speech.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:27
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DynamicSloth posted:handing the keys to a key propaganda channel to whichever right wing billionaire finds the change in his couch cushions, and all it cost them was the principle of free speech. No fears of that. ByteDance will not sell. TikTok will be banned
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Apr 24, 2024 17:28
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DynamicSloth posted:Yeah I don't think this will be the issue that cost Biden the election, but it is emblematic of how feckless and easy to manipulate the Democrats have become. Just fully delivering another of Trump's policy ideas and handing the keys to a key propaganda channel to whichever right wing billionaire finds the change in his couch cushions, and all it cost them was the principle of free speech. isn't it kind of conceding the point to describe tiktok as a propaganda channel
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Apr 24, 2024 17:28
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:i'd note our very own forums already went through a divestment after its owner was deemed odious, and we're all still here posting Jeffrey wasn't running for office at the time (as far as I know), and his chances at election did not hinge upon the goodwill of goons. As others have pointed out, the fact that the sale of tiktok will happen after the election is the worst of all possible worlds for Biden on this issue. Now, whether or not there are any interruptions to service, or any diminution of quality whatsoever, Trump will likely be able to depress youth turnout just by shouting "Biden took away your treats." This was an incredibly stupid potential own-goal by the Dems.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:29
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tractor fanatic posted:No fears of that. ByteDance will not sell. TikTok will be banned Genuinely hope they don’t sell to Elon or some newspaper magnate.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:29
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tractor fanatic posted:The TikTok ban completely validates the PRC's justification for the Great Firewall. Forget algorithm "manipulation": imagine TikTok content was just straight up produced in China by the Chinese. The US seeking to ban it on the grounds that the existence and influence of foreign media is a threat to national security is the exact same justification used by the CCP Funnily enough, one of the justices in the SCOTUS case I posted said the exact same thing (though about the Soviets obvi): koolkal posted:So this is an interesting part of the situation since there is actual SCOTUS case law saying that foreign "communist political propaganda" is in fact legally protected speech. quote:The Government asserts that Congress enacted the statute in the awareness that Communist political propaganda mailed to addressees in the United States on behalf of foreign governments was often offensive to the recipients and constituted a subsidy to the very governments which bar the dissemination of publications from the United States. But the sensibilities of the unwilling recipient are fully safeguarded by 39 CFR § 44.1(a) (Supp.1965) under which the Post Office will honor his request to stop delivery; the statute under consideration, on the other hand, impedes delivery even to a willing addressee. In the area of First Amendment freedoms, government has the duty to confine itself to the least intrusive regulations which are adequate for the purpose. Cf. Butler v. Michigan, 352 U. S. 380. The argument that the statute is justified by the object of avoiding the subsidization of propaganda of foreign governments which bar American propaganda needs little comment. If the Government wishes to withdraw a subsidy or a privilege, it must do so by means and on terms which do not endanger First Amendment rights. Cf. Speiser v. Randall, supra. That the governments which originate this propaganda themselves have no equivalent guarantees only highlights the cherished values of our constitutional framework; it can never justify emulating the practice of restrictive regimes in the name of expediency.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:30
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tractor fanatic posted:The TikTok ban completely validates the PRC's justification for the Great Firewall. Forget algorithm "manipulation": imagine TikTok content was just straight up produced in China by the Chinese. The US seeking to ban it on the grounds that the existence and influence of foreign media is a threat to national security is the exact same justification used by the CCP The difference there is that the great firewall is explicitly about content control. The thing that kicked off the TikTok situation in 2017 was not about content specifically, but was about the discovery that TikTok was injecting software updates onto devices without informing users and it was not even clear why the app had the ability to do that at all, let alone why it was doing it. Then, came the new Chinese security law they passed that allows China access to the data of all Chinese companies without any warning or public notice. Those two things were what set off all the red flags about espionage, data security, cyber crime, and U.S./China economic competition. The TikTok ban is more akin to justifying China's requirements that all foreign companies set up Chinese subsidiaries that answer to China if they want to do business in the country.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:30
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:isn't it kind of conceding the point to describe tiktok as a propaganda channel No, propaganda is by definition speech, if you believe in free speech you believe in free propaganda. Would you not call FoxNews a propaganda channel?
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Apr 24, 2024 17:31
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mawarannahr posted:I do not want to listen to a podcast. Can you link an article or summarize their data regarding Chinese algorithm manipulation techniques? Donghua Jinlong industrial glycine is superior Here is an article from the same guy that goes over some of the points he makes in the podcast, although at a much higher level: https://www.realclearpolicy.com/articles/2024/03/18/tiktok_should_be_owned_by_americans_1019028.html I think the podcast is worth listening to and does a deeper dive into these points and addresses some of the rebuttals to them. Here is the report out of Rutgers about Chinese manipulation of the algorithm: https://networkcontagion.us/wp-content/uploads/A-Tik-Tok-ing-Timebomb_12.21.23.pdf The basic point is that China can and has manipulated the algorithm per the report, a not insignificant portion of Americans use TikTok as their only news source, a larger number of Americans use TikTok regularly. China has the ability to heavily influence that population through manipulation of the algorithm. We don't let the CCP own and control Fox or CNN and for the same reasons TikTok should be divested on top of the data privacy concerns (that admittedly apply to American social media companies as well).
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Apr 24, 2024 17:31
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D-Pad posted:Here is an article from the same guy that goes over some of the points he makes in the podcast, although at a much higher level: Just for context, the American algorithm was moved to be co-managed with an American company (Oracle) and is already a distinct product from the global version. So, these instances of the algorithm being manipulated post-2021 are not necessarily the result of China directly. Either that or Oracle isn't paying close enough attention/the divergence wasn't really impactful in a practical sense. I have no clue what the actual impact of that change was, but some of the instances the report cites were from before 2021, so they may not be relevant to the app as it exists right now. However, they say their new research happened in 2023, so it appears the algorithm may not have changed much when it was changed to being co-managed. It's not really clear what the practical impact of that was, but it isn't 100% clear that the stuff post-2021 was a direct result of Chinese government requests like the pre-2021 stuff was. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 17:37
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koolkal posted:I don't think it has anything to do with leftism at this point. People want their cat videos. Single issue voters but the only issue is the volume of "the dodo" videos pushed into their tiktok feed Majorian posted:I think the issue is less that it may decisively swing "leftists" away from voting for Biden, thus costing him the election, and more that it may depress youth turnout writ large, thus costing him the election. I guess we'll see if a ban on tiktok that isn't really a ban if they divest and won't happen until after the election either way will depress turnout writ large.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:37
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If TikTok is banned how am I supposed to watch that guy who does magic tricks with his rear end crack? YouTube? In this economy?!
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Apr 24, 2024 17:40
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See, call me a crazy old Gen-Xer, but i thought the issue with Tiktok wasn't that it was a vehicle for propoganda but was instead a vehicle to hoover up lots of usage and metadata as well as being an entry point for undetectable spyware. PRC wants a specific person's passwords? Push a little trojan via tiktok that captures it, sends it home and then erases itself.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:42
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Professor Beetus posted:I guess we'll see if a ban on tiktok that isn't really a ban if they divest and won't happen until after the election either way will depress turnout writ large. If I were China, I'd pull the plug on TikTok US maybe a month or a few weeks before the election, where it would damage the Democrats the most in the election. We're only talking a few percentage points here to give the election to Trump and the Republicans. I know China doesn't prefer Trump or the Republicans or anything, but if they're going to lose the US users regardless, it's just about causing as much chaos as possible at that point.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:43
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socialsecurity posted:Thank you this makes more sense then people saying this was all put together overnight because of the I/P stuff. It's a rare issue that doesn't line up perfectly with partisan divides, and thus different legislators with different political priorities have had different positions and perspectives on it. It's not something that can really be boiled down to a single overriding cause. The original impetus for the Tiktok ban seems to have been a combination of:
Trump and other early pushers of the Tiktok ban (like Mike Gallagher, chairman of the "Committee on Strategic Competition between the United States and the Chinese Communist Party") were diehard China hawks. Aside from them, there's also a spectrum of legislators who aren't necessarily openly hostile toward China but do harbor concerns about potential Chinese hostility toward the US. But despite the fact that those two groups have been pushing the Tiktok ban for a few years now, they were never able to quite pull together enough support to move it forward in Congress. It's not really that there was opposition to it, so much as that apparently a lot of legislators didn't care enough to say "Yea". Some legislators were concerned solely with US domestic politics and didn't care about foreign policy, some didn't feel like pretending to care about human rights overseas, some just weren't particularly interested in drum-beating against China, some thought the Tiktok fears were entirely overblown, and some may have had other reasons for not caring. And the diehard advocates of the Tiktok ban have been quietly persuading and lobbying their colleagues for years, trying to convince them to care about Tiktok and China. Some may have been convinced by the spying, some may have been convinced by the activities of Chinese intelligence, and some (especially the ones who were mostly concerned with domestic policy) were reportedly convinced to care about it by a sudden drastic shift in a long-held bipartisan American political consensus. Of course, the people reacting to the ban are also a politically-varied group with their own takes on the issue, and therefore different groups will focus on emphasizing or discounting different parts of the above for their own larger political purposes. mawarannahr posted:You are misrepresenting the article, so I can charitably assume you didn't read it and are doing so unintentionally. Let me help you out -- here is the relevant passage, which indicates multiple times that it is a speculation and there is no evidence that Yass convinced him: True, there's no actual hard evidence describing exactly what caused Trump to suddenly do a complete 180 on Tiktok and abandon his diehard China-phobia, to the surprise and bafflement of his Republican colleagues, and there likely never will be hard evidence. But knowing Trump, a mixture of "corruption" and "a rich guy who hung out with him a lot talked him into it" are both pretty plausible, as both things have been known to be significant motivators for him in the past. DEEP STATE PLOT posted:this is naive as gently caress It passed both houses of Congress with overwhelming veto-proof supermajorities, so it's not like he can block it.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:44
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Cimber posted:See, call me a crazy old Gen-Xer, but i thought the issue with Tiktok wasn't that it was a vehicle for propoganda but was instead a vehicle to hoover up lots of usage and metadata as well as being an entry point for undetectable spyware. PRC wants a specific person's passwords? Push a little trojan via tiktok that captures it, sends it home and then erases itself. Nothing being done here isn’t also being done by flashlight apps for Android lmao. This is obviously about reining in a site that people own who aren’t invested in The West as a concept being allowed to curate media. Security stuff is all hot air when you realize none of the same concern is ever shown for those flashlight apps.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:44
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Cimber posted:See, call me a crazy old Gen-Xer, but i thought the issue with Tiktok wasn't that it was a vehicle for propoganda but was instead a vehicle to hoover up lots of usage and metadata as well as being an entry point for undetectable spyware. PRC wants a specific person's passwords? Push a little trojan via tiktok that captures it, sends it home and then erases itself. I don't think this is possible with Apple ID and probably whatever the Google equivalent is. I have no data but I am pretty sure enough people use these sign in options to make this rather unreliable.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:45
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DynamicSloth posted:No, propaganda is by definition speech, if you believe in free speech you believe in free propaganda. Would you not call FoxNews a propaganda channel? I don't think you're going to convince a lot of people here that they should want Fox News to stay around. Personally I hope Facebook and Twitter are next on the block, but I doubt it. selec posted:Nothing being done here isn’t also being done by flashlight apps for Android lmao. This is obviously about reining in a site that people own who aren’t invested in The West as a concept being allowed to curate media. Security stuff is all hot air when you realize none of the same concern is ever shown for those flashlight apps. How many of those flashlight apps instruct you to call your representative?
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Apr 24, 2024 17:45
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Cimber posted:See, call me a crazy old Gen-Xer, but i thought the issue with Tiktok wasn't that it was a vehicle for propoganda but was instead a vehicle to hoover up lots of usage and metadata as well as being an entry point for undetectable spyware. PRC wants a specific person's passwords? Push a little trojan via tiktok that captures it, sends it home and then erases itself. That is what kicked off the attempts to ban it in 2017. Those are still the major reasons that national security and American business types want it out of China's hands. The propaganda angle has always been an aspect, but that angle started really getting pushed harder after October 7th and when TikTok set up a system to have all of its users automatically call the offices of members of congress and tell them to oppose a ban. When thousands of 12-year olds started calling and saying they had no idea what was happening, but that TikTok was their life that really backfired and made a lot of members see it as a mobilization and propaganda problem.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:46
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I do not believe the TikTok app contains a 0-day that can break the ios sandbox
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Apr 24, 2024 17:47
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selec posted:Nothing being done here isn’t also being done by flashlight apps for Android lmao. This is obviously about reining in a site that people own who aren’t invested in The West as a concept being allowed to curate media. Security stuff is all hot air when you realize none of the same concern is ever shown for those flashlight apps. What does it say about me that i misread what you wrote as 'fleshlight' and then started searching the apple store to get it.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:47
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Professor Beetus posted:I guess we'll see if a ban on tiktok that isn't really a ban if they divest and won't happen until after the election either way will depress turnout writ large. There are really only two ways this plays out: either it doesn't do anything to turnout one way or the other, or it depresses turnout in an election in which the Dems can't afford to lose any more support from their base. There isn't much of an argument that can be made that this will help their chances of being (re)elected. No matter which way you slice it, from an electoral perspective this was a dumb move.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:47
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Main Paineframe posted:It passed both houses of Congress with overwhelming veto-proof supermajorities, so it's not like he can block it.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:47
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tractor fanatic posted:I do not believe the TikTok app contains a 0-day that can break the ios sandbox They did in 2020 and 2022. The 2020 exploit was discovered on January 2nd and wasn't patched until June 22nd. https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2020/06/26/warning-apple-suddenly-catches-tiktok-secretly-spying-on-millions-of-iphone-users/ Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 17:49
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mawarannahr posted:I don't think this is possible with Apple ID and probably whatever the Google equivalent is. I have no data but I am pretty sure enough people use these sign in options to make this rather unreliable. On iOS at least it's not possible for a bunch of technical reasons, unless ByteDance has a number of sandbox escape zero-days they've been sitting on for years. On Android I'm less sure e: I guess they do, lol e2: this is not a sandbox escape zero day and can't be used to snoop password entry on iOS
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Apr 24, 2024 17:51
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selec posted:Nothing being done here isn’t also being done by flashlight apps for Android lmao. This is obviously about reining in a site that people own who aren’t invested in The West as a concept being allowed to curate media. Security stuff is all hot air when you realize none of the same concern is ever shown for those flashlight apps. Our legislators are old, not technically savvy and barely know about the existence of tiktok, you think they're going to know about much more obscure attack vectors?
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Apr 24, 2024 17:51
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Kagrenak posted:Our legislators are old, not technically savvy and barely know about the existence of tiktok, you think they're going to know about much more obscure attack vectors? Same attack vectors, different apps that don’t also contain info hazards these same olds seem well acquainted with. Either way; they’re not dumb, they’re just doing what the system demands of them. Idiots!
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Apr 24, 2024 17:52
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:They did in 2020 and 2022. That's not a 0-day, that was ios offering api access to the clipboard, which the article mentions thousands of apps were also using. It was a convenience feature commonly used for things like, detecting an address copied in order to find it in a map
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Apr 24, 2024 17:55
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haveblue posted:On iOS at least it's not possible for a bunch of technical reasons, unless ByteDance has a number of sandbox escape zero-days they've been sitting on for years. On Android I'm less sure The head of the iOS privacy project said that it was possible to access passwords because the javascript that TikTok injected functioned like a keylogger. quote:Felix Krause, in his study published by Forbes, details the process used. Concretely, the code integrated by TikTok can follow all your movements on the web. It is also able to have access to your passwords and identifiers. It does this by watching everything you type on your iPhone’s keyboard. Krause explains: “From a technical point of view, this is equivalent to installing a keylogger on third-party websites”.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:55
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Crows Turn Off posted:I see no reason for China to play along and wait until the last moment. It's not like China has to wait until after the election. While that might be cathartic it really doesn't jibe with how China throws it's weight around (or how it often refrains from doing so). Aside from their likely indifference between the oh so different Trump and Biden administrations, China could probably care less, the Americans hypocritically engaging in high profile protectionism and censorship while continuing to scold the rest of the world is a much bigger propaganda victory then anything they could possibly 'push' on tiktok.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:56
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Just for context, the American algorithm was moved to be co-managed with an American company (Oracle) and is already a distinct product from the global version. So, these instances of the algorithm being manipulated post-2021 are not necessarily the result of China directly. Either that or Oracle isn't paying close enough attention/the divergence wasn't really impactful in a practical sense. I have no clue what the actual impact of that change was, but some of the instances the report cites were from before 2021, so they may not be relevant to the app as it exists right now. There have been several reports as well as former TikTok employees saying the move to Oracle did not materially change the situation and that the CCP still has ultimate control. Ultimately the people in control of TikTok have to answer to the CCP. If Xi decides he want something done it's going to happen or executives are going to start disappearing like Jack Ma.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:59
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The head of the iOS privacy project said that it was possible to access passwords because the javascript that TikTok injected functioned like a keylogger. That is code that is used in basically every modern web app lol https://www.datadoghq.com/knowledge-center/session-replay/ We use this one at my job. It's off the shelf and probably a bit more limited since we're not a hundred billion dollar company Fun fact: most of them nowadays also specifically track "rage clicks" which are users getting frustrated with something and clicking rapidly on it koolkal fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 17:59
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Pretty cool pic actually. Didn't realize it was multi-staged. It’s about drafts. The big multi purpose ships have deeper drafts so the offshore pier is where they can discharge safely. The army landing craft have small drafts and so can unload at the pier crossing the shore. Jethro posted:I just wanted to say I do appreciate these updates. It's nice to know they are actually doing something about the issue, even if it was somewhat too little too late when they kicked it off two months ago. It’s not something being well covered in the media. There have been some okay what is JLOTS articles, but that’s all very general. We need to actually do something or a very large number of people are going to starve to death, hundreds of thousands. It is something that if they stop or pause it might not get noticed because I don’t see anyone writing about it with detail about where the ships actually are from tracks on public AIS services.
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Apr 24, 2024 18:01
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The head of the iOS privacy project said that it was possible to access passwords because the javascript that TikTok injected functioned like a keylogger. I don't understand, where is the JavaScript being injected? It is using the same API that Awful.app uses to detect forum URLs (which could, at that time, exfiltrate your passwords, in exactly the same manner --- which raises the question "why didn't congress act on Awful.app??") quote:The most acute issue with this vulnerability is Apple’s universal clipboard functionality, which means that anything I copy on my Mac or iPad can be read by my iPhone, and vice versa. So, if TikTok is active on your phone while you work, the app can basically read anything and everything you copy on another device: Passwords, work documents, sensitive emails, financial information. Anything.
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Apr 24, 2024 18:02
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nm.
Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 18:03
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D-Pad posted:Here is an article from the same guy that goes over some of the points he makes in the podcast, although at a much higher level: Thanks btw
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Apr 24, 2024 18:04
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koolkal posted:That is code that is used in basically every modern web app lol I have yet to see an actual security critique of TikTok that's not "TikTok collects huge volumes of telemetry data, like every other app in the world"
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Apr 24, 2024 18:04
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