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Bar Ran Dun posted:JB You understand how you replying to someone saying that Hamas cares about Palestinians with those facts (which honestly leaves out important context) gives people the impression that you are saying that Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians, right? And if you aren’t willing to answer the question about whether or not Hamas cares about Palestinians, why give us these facts? You decry simplistic dualistic thinking, but you aren’t giving your own opinion on it, just “stating the facts”.
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May 4, 2024 00:17
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Hamas is a group. It’s not a person. Groups are not moral actors in the way individuals are. The self interest of groups is less restrained than individuals consequently. You interjected your little three step equation into a discussion on exactly that question. If you were trying not to express an opinion on it, you went about it in a very strange way.
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May 4, 2024 00:25
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Gucci Loafers posted:I don't know what else to really say, it is sad but I/P is a low, low priority on voters mind and incredibly unlikely to sway the outcome of the 2024 US Election. It's something that supercharges young educated voters but those are tiny in number and most young people don't vote in the first place. Maybe if Netanyahu actually invades Rafa you'll see some changes but it's already known Biden's relationship with him isn't great anyway. It's fascinating that the people repeating this seem to be entirely ignorant of the margins in swing states last time around. If youth turnout is 5-10% lower & Biden loses 80% of the Muslim vote, do you really think he's likely to pick up enough pro-genocide voters to make up the difference in MI/WI/PA/GA? It's true that most young people don't vote, but it's also true the increased youth turnout was necessary for Biden's 2020 victory. Unless Biden is picking up a bunch of votes somewhere else - and literally every single poll shows him doing worse than he was in 2020, so that's doubtful - he needs youth turnout at 2020 levels to have any hope of winning. Like, the reasoning here is fundamentally flawed: The fact that young voters turn out at lower rates than older voters does not entail that ignoring their concerns is a sound electoral strategy, especially if (as is the case) the margins are likely to be tight enough that a return to pre-2018 youth voting levels - which is just a reversion to the historical mean - suffices to lose Biden the election. If young voters are naturally apathetic and unreliable, then it stands to reason that ardent adherence to policies vehemently opposed by a significant portion (even if it's not a majority or plurality) of those voters is extremely likely to reduce voter turnout. (And it's not like Biden's particularly popular on a bunch of other issues that young voters rank higher than the genocide anyway.) So yeah, it's probably not going to be the single issue that sways the election. But that's a facile point: A single issue almost never decides the election. If you look at polls over the past year or two, young voters had significantly soured on Biden before he earned the Genocide Joe moniker. The problem is, his electoral strategy is predicated on those voters being sufficiently motivated by fear of Trump that they'll return to the fold. If that doesn't happen, he's screwed. As of right now, it sure looks like it's not happening. Or, to try this another way: Take a look at the actual ranking of most important issues. If I'm reading that correctly, foreign policy is roughly of the same importance as abortion/healthcare. If it were true that issues that aren't ranked highly can be ignored, then the democrats would be justified in completely ignoring abortion & healthcare, since they matter as much as foreign policy. You'd have to be a totally delusional moron to think that those issues don't contribute to people's voting patterns (both whether they vote & who they vote for if they do), even though they're both dwarfed in importance by the economy/inflation. For fun, observe that "Protecting Democracy", which seems to be the the issue Democrats are leading with, was also only ranked as the most important issue by 3% of the voters - exactly the same as foreign policy or abortion. By your reasoning, most people really don't care about protecting democracy either, so it surely won't influence anyone's vote. A less asinine take on this would be: "Which issue is the most important?" is a totally useless metric for predicting how people are going to vote.
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May 4, 2024 00:31
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punishedkissinger posted:usually you want to have a good reason to back a violent crack down on peaceful protesters. voters not being engaged with the issue being protested is not that. I agree but what exactly does that have to do with my original post that this issue in the scheme of the 2024 US election isn't that impactful? punishedkissinger posted:also, pretty much everything we know about Biden suggests that he is in fact a hardcore Zionist. Hardcore? He's dragging Netanyahu through the coals publicly which is something world leaders especially allies rarely do. His party own party is clearly asking some tough questions about their continued support of Israeli. I don't think that's "hardcore" Zionism especially when the Republican Party does things like this, https://x.com/WarMonitors/status/1786089948556226827
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May 4, 2024 00:34
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Bar Ran Dun posted:JB Im not asserting an opinion I'm listing 3 things that are generally regarded as factual. 1) Palestine and the West Bank were slowly being suffocated to death by increasing encroachment by the state of Israel. 2) Hamas needed to do something to draw attention to the plight of their people, who have repeatedly said they would rather fight than be suffocated to death. 3) Hamas took action on Oct 23. Just say what you mean next time this cutesy stuff is weird.
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May 4, 2024 00:35
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The idea that groups taking action that might result in abhorrent retaliation from an oppressor, don't care about their people...Essentially paints every guerilla force in the past 7 decades as being composed of sociopaths. Everyone from the Taliban to the Viet Cong to the 26th of July Movement to the French Resistance to the Bolsheviks.Gucci Loafers posted:Hardcore? This is only because Netanyahu is endangering Israel. It's the same reason Biden complains about the settlements; it makes the task of defending Israel internationally harder. If Netanyahu had a coherent plan alongside the whole "Genocide" thing, Biden would be taking every possible opportunity to do photoshoots with him. It's not the horrifying governance that bothers him, it's that Netanyahu serves his interests above Israel. That's why his spokespeople aren't denouncing the plan to ethnically cleanse Rafah, but rather that Israel doesnt have an actual plan. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 00:41 on May 4, 2024 |
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May 4, 2024 00:37
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Gucci Loafers posted:I agree but what exactly does that have to do with my original post that this issue in the scheme of the 2024 US election isn't that impactful? I've been hearing Biden assert and reassert his commitment to Israel for months. He stated plainly the increasing protests will not change his course. The fact you need to point to the republican party in any way to seemingly counter that claim is, well, actually its perfect.
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May 4, 2024 01:03
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Gucci Loafers posted:
Joe Biden publicly criticized Ronald Reagan for not letting Israel slaughter every man, woman, and child in Beirut. He is a 100% ideologically committed zionist.
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May 4, 2024 01:17
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Gucci Loafers posted:He's dragging Netanyahu through the coals publicly which is something world leaders especially allies rarely do. His party own party is clearly asking some tough questions about their continued support of Israeli. I don't think that's "hardcore" Zionism especially when the Republican Party does things like this, Zionist doesn’t mean liking Netanyahu. Netanyahu isn’t the entirety of Zionism
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May 4, 2024 01:19
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Bar Ran Dun posted:It was known well before the attacks in October 23 that Isreal always overreacts to an extreme degree. They knew before doing the attacks on the scale they did in Oct that the overreaction from Isreal would be extremely bad for everybody in Gaza. They might not have realized it would be genocide bad. I don't think that Hamas was destroyed 7 years before it was formed when Egypt normalized with Israel in 1980? If Egypt having normal diplomatic relations with Israel for the entirety of Hamas' existence has not been a problem (while they are currently a if not the major source of Hamas' weapons) then how would KSA and Israel normalization challenge the existence of the Islamic Resistance Movement? Weka fucked around with this message at 01:54 on May 4, 2024 |
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May 4, 2024 01:36
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Gnumonic posted:Or, to try this another way: Take a look at the actual ranking of most important issues. If I'm reading that correctly, foreign policy is roughly of the same importance as abortion/healthcare. If it were true that issues that aren't ranked highly can be ignored, then the democrats would be justified in completely ignoring abortion & healthcare, since they matter as much as foreign policy. You'd have to be a totally delusional moron to think that those issues don't contribute to people's voting patterns (both whether they vote & who they vote for if they do), even though they're both dwarfed in importance by the economy/inflation. The discussion is kind of getting too much into the weeds of American politics, but the poll you quoted is not that good for what you are trying to prove. When given only one thing to choose, a lot of otherwise important issues get 1-2%, because they are seen as not high level enough. It's easier to pick 'fix all of the economy' over something more specific like 'sort out oil prices' because it covers more of the issues you care about. This is because the poll is less about specific issues and more about economic v. non-economic. Here's a better poll for what you're talking about https://www.pewresearch.org/short-r...her-key-issues/ It shows that things like healthcare or race relations are actually on a lot of people's minds and so they are picked up by politicians for their platforms.  While I don't think that the war in Gaza is important for the majority of the youth vote, it's one of the many issues where they are dissatisfied with Biden's performance and it definitely contributes to his diminishing support among younger millennials and gen z.  https://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/NPR_PBS-NewsHour_Marist-Poll_USA-NOS-and-Tables_202403291554.pdf How much exactly it contributes is debatable, though. This youth poll from March suggests that for many young people there are more important issues. https://iop.harvard.edu/youth-poll/47th-edition-spring-2024  So in theory, Biden may be betting on some big announcement on one of the higher priority issues to win young people back. Or it's all just tea leaves, I don't know.
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May 4, 2024 02:08
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Until people in Palestine and Yemen are begging people to vote for Joe Biden to stop Israel I think worrying that the US elections have any real valence or that there is any real difference between Trump and Biden on this issue to the material outcome for people in Gaza is entirely misguided or cynical. Frankly, I’m getting kinda disgusted with Americans and Brits who claim not just that they know better about Trump/Biden, the Houthis, and Israel than actual Palestinians, but often do with a sense of righteous anger against anyone who disagrees with them, and it’s hard to believe they care much about actual issue beyond the effect on the election or economy.
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May 4, 2024 02:37
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Neurolimal posted:The idea that groups taking action that might result in abhorrent retaliation from an oppressor, don't care about their people...Essentially paints every guerilla force in the past 7 decades as being composed of sociopaths. Everyone from the Taliban to the Viet Cong to the 26th of July Movement to the French Resistance to the Bolsheviks. Hell, Nelson Mandela wrote repeatedly about using the certainty of disproportionate violent retaliation as a reason to act because it will turn public opinion against the oppressors.
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May 4, 2024 03:45
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Bar Ran Dun posted:It was known well before the attacks in October 23 that Isreal always overreacts to an extreme degree. They knew before doing the attacks on the scale they did in Oct that the overreaction from Isreal would be extremely bad for everybody in Gaza. They might not have realized it would be genocide bad. You could say the same thing about the partisans in Nazi-occupied Europe. It was well known that in response to partisan attacks, the German Army would come in and just indiscriminately murder a bunch of people in the area, depopulate whole villages even, to try to deter future attacks. Partisans continued to resist anyway. Would you conclude from this that, say, Polish partisans didn't care about Polish people, since they knew their attacks would prompt brutal and massively disproportionate reprisals but did it anyway?
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May 4, 2024 04:55
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also im pretty sure bar is kind of trending into revisionism because pre-oct 7th israel was rather well known for trading a disproportionate amount of prisoners for their own captured soldiers
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May 4, 2024 05:37
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The updated version of "If you think about it, the anti-nazi partisans were ultimately responsible for the Lidice massacre. They had to know there would be a reaction to Heydrich being killed." is one hell of a take, but oddly common among PEP types and adjacents. It's bizarre watching the same playbook unfolding every single time, be it Palestine, Iraq, South Africa, Vietnam, Civil Rights. The Outside Agitator trope. The 'you can protest, but not like that. Not like -that- either!' demonstration sommeliers. Media and people conveniently forgetting that infiltrators and provocateurs are a thing. The establishment moving to reshape the discussion and the issue into the least charitable framing possible. Making the reaction to a crisis the issue instead of the crisis itself. You think along the way someone would have learned something, but the business of empire churns ever onward, I guess.
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May 4, 2024 05:52
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Things are learned but only about the past, for some reason it's hard to apply those lessons to the present in the midst of emotions, partisanship, nationalism, etc. It's easy for almost everyone to say now, that everyone involved is dead, and the political passions of the 40s are confined to history textbooks, that Nazi Germany was the aggressor and the Polish resistance was justified, and that people must have just been unthinkably evil back then for so many to have supported it. But ask a German or one of Germany's allies in 1943 whether crushing the resistance by any means necessary was justified and well we've got to have lawn order, we wouldn't have to do this if the Poles would just comply. Always important to critically examine your statements in light of history, if you sound like you would have been on the bad side back then, it might be a sign to reevaluate your assumptions.
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May 4, 2024 07:24
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Charliegrs posted:Oct 7th and decades of suicide bombings showed that yes they are savages. Like I'm no fan of Israel but come on are people really trying to say Hamas are the good guys here? I want freedom for the Palestinians like every other sane person but I draw the line at defending Hamas. "Like I'm no fan of the apartheid regime but come on are people really trying to say the ANC are the good guys here? I want freedom for black South Africans but I draw the line at defending the Mandela and the ANC." -- SAPoster Charliegrs, "Letter from a Kitty Jail"
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May 4, 2024 09:00
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Hamas is quite arguably the legitimate political representative of the Palestinian people. In the last (2006) elections they *won*. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election Israel and the US obviously wanted Fatah to win but oops, they lost. Cue two decades of obstruction and refusal to accept that Hamas won. Israel has a pliable "partner" in Abbas after Arafat died. A WaPo quote from above: quote:In the cable sent to Washington, Jones said that Yadlin had been quite satisfied with Hamas' seizure of the Gaza Strip. If Hamas managed to take complete control, then the Israel Defense Forces would be able to treat Gaza as a hostile territory and stop looking at the militant group as an undiplomatic player, Yadlin apparently told Jones."
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May 4, 2024 09:14
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EDIT: bad post
Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 09:55 on May 4, 2024 |
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May 4, 2024 09:53
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If Nelson Mandela had hypothetically, instead of running an overwhelmingly peaceful campaign that killed fewer than 100 people over several decades, ordered his group to massacre hundreds of civilians at a music festival in a single weekend, that would be worthy of condemnation. I'd suggest he also probably would not have succeeded, at least in the way he did via a political settlement. If Gabčík and Kubiš had decided to abandon their mission to kill a critical Nazi officer who was a principal architect of the Holocaust, and instead decided to just go house to house killing every civilian they could get their hands on, that would be worthy of condemnation. It also would not have in any way contributed to the war effort against the Nazis. And so on. These examples only demonstrate that there are ways to violently resist that are not killing as many civilians as you can. Provoking a crackdown can be a legitimate strategy, but if your initial provocation is itself already unimaginably morally heinous then it is unlikely to change many minds or achieve anything other than massive civilian suffering on both sides. The same countries that traditionally support Israel are still supporting Israel. The same countries that usually condemn Israel but perform no concrete action against them are condemning Israel but doing nothing concrete to help. The brulality of Israel's response is not surprising to anyone (other than Hamas, apparently), and therefore has not prompted any significant re-evaluation of support.
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May 4, 2024 09:57
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It was the IDF that killed the civilians. And before you go 'citation needed' make sure you have your (non-Hasbara, non-US) sources ready that show Hamas' leaders 'ordered their group to massacre hundreds of civilians', because I sure haven't seen that established anywhere reputable. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 4, 2024 10:19
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It's true that some friendly fire occured, but the idea that it was most or all of the victims is completely ludicrous. For example, Al-Jazeera's investigation (which went against many more lurid claims from Western media) still found: https://network.aljazeera.net/en/press-releases/%E2%80%9Coctober-7%E2%80%9D quote:widespread human rights abuses by Hamas fighters and others, including the killing of 782 Israelis and foreign nationals. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...9b-ebdfbee90000
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May 4, 2024 11:28
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Irony Be My Shield posted:If Nelson Mandela had hypothetically, instead of running an overwhelmingly peaceful campaign that killed fewer than 100 people over several decades, ordered his group to massacre hundreds of civilians 
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May 4, 2024 11:40
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That article says nothing about civilians. It says Israelis and you are choosing to assume they were all civilians. Do you admit that you have no proof that Hamas leadership 'ordered their group to massacre hundreds of civilians' and that you were intentionally using emotive language to obfuscate the facts? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 4, 2024 11:57
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Gnumonic posted:(And it's not like Biden's particularly popular on a bunch of other issues that young voters rank higher than the genocide anyway.) I'd say that as an issue, abortion both ranks higher than Gaza, and will lead to high turn out under young voters. While Gaza inspires and motivates some college students, abortion is relevant to a much much larger group of young voters.
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May 4, 2024 11:58
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Irony Be My Shield posted:If Nelson Mandela had hypothetically, instead of running an overwhelmingly peaceful campaign that killed fewer than 100 people over several decades, ordered his group to massacre hundreds of civilians at a music festival in a single weekend, that would be worthy of condemnation. I'd suggest he also probably would not have succeeded, at least in the way he did via a political settlement. If you like, you may strike out “at a music festival.” What is not being factored in to these “Israel will overreact” moral calculations is that it’s May and Israel has achieved nothing except mass murder. Six months to win against an open-air prison would be bad enough, six months and no end in sight is well into “The Zionist experiment has failed” territory. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 4, 2024 12:45
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Irony Be My Shield posted:achieve anything other than massive civilian suffering on both sides. Sorry, but there has not been "massive civilian suffering on both sides". On one side, there has been a calculated military effort to capture hostages in an attempt to secure leverage in order to relieve a siege which engenders starvation and a slow genocide on said side, which encountered violent resistance. On the other side, there has been a massive ramping up of said genocide, which has killed more than fifteen thousand children, among a vast multitude of other unspeakable atrocities, which is still continuing, and is enabled and supported by the country with the most powerful military in the world. A small, but I think important distinction to make. Not to mention, you seem to be implying that if the ANC had killed more white Rhodesians in their resistance to violent apartheid, that their cause would have been illegitimate? I certainly don't think that would have been the case. Your Brain on Hugs fucked around with this message at 14:08 on May 4, 2024 |
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May 4, 2024 14:01
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You know, Israel is still doing completely appalling and unconscionable things even if Hamas was also responsible for a massacre. You don't need to pretend that nothing happened on October Seven, or buy into absurd conspiracy theories in order to oppose what Israel is doing now.
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May 4, 2024 14:03
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It's not an absurd conspiracy theory to think a civilian massacre wasn't the purpose of Oct 7th. It was pure chance that a musical festival was happening along the path for Hamas to take to military targets.
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May 4, 2024 14:33
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Angry Salami posted:You know, Israel is still doing completely appalling and unconscionable things even if Hamas was also responsible for a massacre. You don't need to pretend that nothing happened on October Seven, or buy into absurd conspiracy theories in order to oppose what Israel is doing now. I believe that everything that happened on October 7th was purely and solely the fault of Israel's government and Israel's military and any part of the Israeli civilian population that supports them. Whether Israeli civilians died or not has zero impact on how I feel about Hamas - those deaths were Israel's fault as surely as if the IDF murdered them regardless of the events on the ground. I also believe that anyone who wants to post in DnD that Hamas 'ordered their group to massacre hundreds of civilians' should be expected to provide proof of that claim (which they will not be able to do because that proof does not exist). An IK shouldn't be in here posting inflammatory garbage just because their sympathies lie with the military that is committing genocide and not the one opposing it.
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May 4, 2024 14:49
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Stating the obvious here, but the crux is people in the west can't stop talking about Oct 7 but all the massacres by Israel before that on Gaza didn't matter to the West because it's Muslims being killed obviously they must be terrorists, also, it doesn't matter, they're not people (There are christian gazans but of course Israel is the good guys) So many of my friends immediately were appalled by Oct 7 but not one of them gave a flying gently caress about the kneecapping campaign
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May 4, 2024 14:58
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Marenghi posted:It's not an absurd conspiracy theory to think a civilian massacre wasn't the purpose of Oct 7th. No disrespect, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that a music festival that had been advertised for months was an unplanned obstacle. Do you have a source saying it was?
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May 4, 2024 15:03
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Irony Be My Shield posted:It's true that some friendly fire occured, but the idea that it was most or all of the victims is completely ludicrous. For example, Al-Jazeera's investigation (which went against many more lurid claims from Western media) still found: When Palestinians do it, it's to be condemned, when Israel does it oops "some friendly fire occurred" Irony Be My Shield posted:If Nelson Mandela had hypothetically, instead of running an overwhelmingly peaceful campaign that killed fewer than 100 people over several decades, ordered his group to massacre hundreds of civilians at a music festival in a single weekend, that would be worthy of condemnation. I'd suggest he also probably would not have succeeded, at least in the way he did via a political settlement. uMkhonto we Sizwe did bomb shopping centers, railway stations, roads, etc and those attacks did kill civilians which I guess you know, which is why you had draw the line at the sanctity of a music festival, specifically. And there were other groups as well, ever hear of necklacing? The reason the bombings did not escalate even more probably had more to do with the National Party realizing they had become an international pariah and that victory in an all-out civil war was uncertain, and so they decided to negotiate in good faith rather bomb whole villages and carry out large scale massacres up until the present day. Not because like, Nelson Mandela asked nicely or whatever. They asked him many times in prison to condemn the bomings and tell UwS to stop and he refused. Although, once the Nats were willing to negotiate, convincing them that he didn't want to kill all white people probably helped give them a way out. It's easy to say now, from the comfort of 2024, after decades of hagiographies and downplaying the violent parts of the resistance, that the ANC was right. But in the 80s there were plenty of people who sound pretty much like you do now: Mandela is a terrorist, he killed people, condemn him.
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May 4, 2024 15:14
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Irony Be My Shield posted:ordered his group to massacre hundreds of civilians at a music festival in a single weekend, that would be worthy of condemnation. Citation incredibly needed for this insinuation, imo
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May 4, 2024 15:22
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Kith posted:No disrespect, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that a music festival that had been advertised for months was an unplanned obstacle. Do you have a source saying it was? Just about every major publication after October 7th concluded that Hamas couldn't have known about it beforehand and that they were surprised. Given the severity of your implied accusation it would be nice if you either had a cursory knowledge of what you're talking about or did a single google or even bing to look up the extremely well established counter to your baseless insinuation. I'd grab you a link but it's genuinely everywhere. No one disputes that the festival location was both explicitly a secret and changed at the last minute to be on the border of a concentration camp.
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May 4, 2024 15:25
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Giggs posted:The location was explicitly hidden (from everyone) until the last minute (the 5th I think). Literally no one knew where the festival was going to take place, not even the organizers, given that the location was changed to Re'im from some other original intended location. I didn't mean to imply or accuse anything, that's what I meant by "no disrespect". I legitimately did not know that and was asking because I couldn't find anything about that on my own. I would genuinely appreciate a link if you have one. If it's as widely known as you say it is, it's shocking to me that I managed to miss that detail. e: Thinking about it further, I probably missed that detail because of everything else that was going on at the time - I've been more focused on getting my friends' families help and so on. Kith fucked around with this message at 15:32 on May 4, 2024 |
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May 4, 2024 15:29
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Kith posted:No disrespect, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that a music festival that had been advertised for months was an unplanned obstacle. Do you have a source saying it was? Supernova Sukkot was only moved to the Re’im site two days prior, after another site in southern Israel fell through. Sorry, it's only Billboard, but this has been reported elsewhere as well. I spent ten minutes trying to build this out but in short: I don't agree with the civilian deaths, planned or not, on Oct 7th, or things like parading a civilian corpse in a pickup truck. These are bad acts on their own and completely separate from the sick and twisted practices of the Israeli military and govt. That said, I also recognize that my experience as a non-minority resident of a first world country allows me the privilege to have that opinion. I've never lived in the world's largest concentration camp and I've never been brutalized by a racist regime hellbent on destroying my people. It's a lot easier to say "murdering civilians is bad" than to think about the difference in perspectives and experiences. e: on second thought, no (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Vorenus fucked around with this message at 19:08 on May 5, 2024 |
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May 4, 2024 15:37
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I imagine the people walled in to the ghetto next door were not the target audience for advertizing a fun festival, so it's not hard to believe the Hamas planners didn't take it into account, even without the part about the location changing last minute.
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May 4, 2024 15:39
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Vorenus posted:Supernova Sukkot was only moved to the Re’im site two days prior, after another site in southern Israel fell through. I've read a few sources about it but they all just brushed over why it was moved at the last minute. Just that the original location "fell through." I've never seen the actual reason for it falling through. I also don't see why it would be better to just have the festival right next to a concentration camp instead of just postponing or cancelling.
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May 4, 2024 15:45
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