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Kith posted:I didn't mean to imply or accuse anything, that's what I meant by "no disrespect". I legitimately did not know that and was asking because I couldn't find anything about that on my own. I would genuinely appreciate a link if you have one. I don't blame you for missing it. Immediately after the attack Israel and twitter was pushing the narrative that the music festival was specifically targeted by Hamas. The attacks on military sites were downplayed while the attack on the music festival was pushed to the front. It took a while for the truth to come out that Hamas couldn't have known it would take place along their path to military targets.
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May 4, 2024 15:49
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3rdEyeDeuteranopia posted:
There was a ferris wheel right outside the Warsaw Ghetto where the inmates inside could even see the happy German couples enjoying the ride. "Campa del Fiori" posted:I thought of the Campo dei Fiori It's pretty on the nose honestly.
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May 4, 2024 15:55
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3rdEyeDeuteranopia posted:I've read a few sources about it but they all just brushed over why it was moved at the last minute. Just that the original location "fell through." I'm not sure the "why" of the location change matters. As to the bolded part, I think arrogance and complacency would probably explain it.
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May 4, 2024 15:56
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Vorenus posted:I'm not sure the "why" of the location change matters. The "why" because I know how loud and bright musical festivals can be even a bit of distance away. I don't think anything would be justification to move it close but would at least hear out the actual reason. It's just been a super weird part of the event.
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May 4, 2024 16:05
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Your Brain on Hugs posted:
People making that argument are very careful to never define what level of civilian suffering/death removes legitimacy from a movement/nation/institution. Because no matter how high set it, their approved side has invariably crossed it several times over. It's just easier tocontrast any protest of resistance again a platonic, perfect non-violent version and reject it for failing to meet those standards. Was jewish nationalism invalid because they blew up the King David Hotel and killed 100 people? Of course not, and it's not like one of the brains behind that came to lead the jewish state once it was formed, right? ...right? But as Piers Morgan was arguing this week, throwing rocks at a tank is violent and just makes him sour about the whole thing, even though he really wants to defend your freedom of protest, guys! So yeah, some sides can run up death scored into the thousands/hundreds of thousands, but because they (supposedly) didn't mean to, it's alright, they are good guys and justified/legitimate. You can blow up apartment buildings because one militia leader was supposedly inside it and hey, that's just war, plus they hide behind civilians! Plus, remember the terrible things they did on Day X, when History started!
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May 4, 2024 16:10
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Sephyr posted:People making that argument are very careful to never define what level of civilian suffering/death removes legitimacy from a movement/nation/institution. Because no matter how high set it, their approved side has invariably crossed it several times over. It's just easier tocontrast any protest of resistance again a platonic, perfect non-violent version and reject it for failing to meet those standards.
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May 4, 2024 16:25
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Gucci Loafers posted:He's dragging Netanyahu through the coals publicly which is something world leaders especially allies rarely do. His party own party is clearly asking some tough questions about their continued support of Israeli. I don't think that's "hardcore" Zionism especially when the Republican Party does things like this, Sorry guy, you've been tricked by PR and the (understandable) inclination to think one of the parties of America's managed democracy have to be the good guy. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/i-am-zionist-how-joe-bidens-lifelong-bond-with-israel-shapes-war-policy-2023-10-21/ quote:When Joe Biden met with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his war cabinet during his visit to Israel, the U.S. president assured them: "I don't believe you have to be a Jew to be a Zionist, and I am a Zionist." https://theconversation.com/biden-says-the-u-s-would-have-to-invent-an-israel-if-it-didnt-exist-why-210172 quote:The U.S. sees Israel as a critical “strategic ally” in the Middle East. During his recent meeting with Herzog, President Joe Biden repeated a line he famously said in 1986: “If there were not an Israel, we’d have to invent one.” https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/4/2/biden-is-still-the-best-us-president-israel-could-wish-for quote:According to Begin, 40-year-old Delaware Senator Joe Biden delivered “a very impassioned speech” in support of Israel during a closed Foreign Policy Committee meeting in Washington, DC and said “he would go even further than Israel” and “forcefully fend off anyone who sought to invade his country, even if that meant killing women or children”. https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/4640068-schumer-johnson-netanyahu-invite/ quote:Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) is poised to join Speaker Mike Johnson (R-La.) in inviting Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to deliver an address to Congress, despite tensions between the Israeli leader and many Democrats over the ongoing war in the Middle East. They don't seem angry enough with Netanyahu to stop inviting him to visit. The US, and Biden specifically, are backing Israel to the hilt. Any rumblings about Biden being angry at Netanyahu or considering reducing support to Israel are hot air to allow gullible liberals to believe Biden maybe isn't such a bad guy at heart. In material terms, the US backs Israel completely, and have made it clear that they will continue to do so, no matter what. Biden's administration specifically has made sure to supply Israel extraordinarily well, even going around Congress to do so. https://apnews.com/article/us-israel-gaza-arms-hamas-bypass-congress-1dc77f20aac4a797df6a2338b677da4f quote:For the second time this month the Biden administration is bypassing Congress to approve an emergency weapons sale to Israel as Israel continues to prosecute its war against Hamas in Gaza under increasing international criticism Even when the administration has made noises that make it seem like there may be a red line Israel shouldn't cross, they've immediately backtracked to make clear that they're just asking nicely, and Israel defying them wouldn't actually be a red line. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/12/world/middleeast/biden-netanyahu-israel-gaza-red-lines.html quote:The White House denied on Tuesday that President Biden had set any “red lines” for Israel in its campaign against Hamas in Gaza but warned again that Israel should not attack the city of Rafah, the southernmost city in the enclave, without protections for more than a million people sheltering there. There is absolutely zero basis for believing that Biden or the Democrats are in any way " dragging Netanyahu through the coals" and "asking some tough questions about their continued support of Israel", or that Biden is anything less than a hardcore Zionist. At absolute best, the Democrats might prefer a different figurehead than Netanyahu to steer the genocide, but there's no indication that they're considering breaking with Israel as a state. Esran fucked around with this message at 17:54 on May 4, 2024 |
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May 4, 2024 16:38
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Sephyr posted:People making that argument are very careful to never define what level of civilian suffering/death removes legitimacy from a movement/nation/institution. Because no matter how high set it, their approved side has invariably crossed it several times over. It's just easier tocontrast any protest of resistance again a platonic, perfect non-violent version and reject it for failing to meet those standards. Exactly. Historical resistance movements are always whitewashed to make it seem like they achieved their goals simply by being On The Right Side Of History and asking the oppressors nicely for equality, and any violence or disruption is erased from the narrative. Great examples are the American Civil Rights Movement, the ANC and the Indian independence movement. There was absolutely violence and threats to the established order involved in all those movements, and yet the narrative that tends to be presented is that Our Hero led a march/sat in prison/did a protest and then the oppressors saw the error of their ways and gave the oppressed equal rights. Resistance in the past is good, noble, justified and has a just-so narrative with a hero main character attached to it. You'd think organizations like the Black Panthers and uMkhonto we Sizwe didn't exist, or that the Quit India Movement was non-violent.
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May 4, 2024 17:27
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Kith posted:I didn't mean to imply or accuse anything, that's what I meant by "no disrespect". I legitimately did not know that and was asking because I couldn't find anything about that on my own. I would genuinely appreciate a link if you have one. rolling stone posted:Supernova, produced by Israel-based Nova Tribe, also doubled as the Israeli edition of Brazil’s popular Universo Paralello festival, a biannual nine-day event that has hosted electronic, reggae, and hip-hop artists near the country’s southern beaches for 20 years. It was set to take place Oct. 6 and 7, although its producers wouldn’t reveal the exact location to ticketholders — which included many teenagers able to get around the minimum-age requirement of 23 — until shortly before it began. All anyone knew was this: “The event will take place in a powerful, natural location full of trees, stunning in its beauty and organized for your convenience, about an hour and a quarter south of Tel Aviv.” Attendees were prohibited from bringing weapons including guns and sharp objects. The announcement on the ticketing site joyously proclaimed, “We Are On!” The ticketing site they cite also lacks any location. haaretz posted:The growing assessment in Israel's security establishment is that Hamas terrorists who committed the October 7 massacre didn’t have advance knowledge about the Nova music festival held next to Kibbutz Re’im times of israel posted:The investigation concluded that the terrorists did not know in advance about the party, contrary to previous reports and widespread belief, Channel 12 says. Giggs fucked around with this message at 17:54 on May 4, 2024 |
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May 4, 2024 17:28
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Marenghi posted:I don't blame you for missing it. Immediately after the attack Israel and twitter was pushing the narrative that the music festival was specifically targeted by Hamas. The attacks on military sites were downplayed while the attack on the music festival was pushed to the front. What a clusterfuck. That's really awful. Giggs posted:I shouldn't have been lovely, my bad. I got annoyed by somebody else's absolutely deranged post, that's not your fault. Here's some more sources detailing that the location was not broadcast for months, and that there's no reason to believe anyone (e: I mean Hamas) knew about the festival when they launched. It's okay, I understand - the subject is an extremely volatile one and discussions are full of people trying to push narratives, so I don't blame you for being frustrated. I appreciate the sources very much, thank you.
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May 4, 2024 22:42
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Gnumonic posted:It's fascinating that the people repeating this seem to be entirely ignorant of the margins in swing states last time around. If youth turnout is 5-10% lower & Biden loses 80% of the Muslim vote, do you really think he's likely to pick up enough pro-genocide voters to make up the difference in MI/WI/PA/GA? Ignorant about what? I have never, ever seen a single article from a traditional outlet like the NY Times to even a vague post from even some redditor that argues and shows that young voters were critical for Biden's victory in 2020. If anything, if you had to pick the most important demographic is suburban white women but if you have anything that says that Muslim American in places like Michigan were critical to Biden's victory or college aged voters are a priority I'd love to see because that's completely different than everything else I've come across. Gnumonic posted:Like, the reasoning here is fundamentally flawed: The fact that young voters turn out at lower rates than older voters does not entail that ignoring their concerns is a sound electoral strategy, especially if (as is the case) the margins are likely to be tight enough that a return to pre-2018 youth voting levels - which is just a reversion to the historical mean - suffices to lose Biden the election. If young voters are naturally apathetic and unreliable, then it stands to reason that ardent adherence to policies vehemently opposed by a significant portion (even if it's not a majority or plurality) of those voters is extremely likely to reduce voter turnout. (And it's not like Biden's particularly popular on a bunch of other issues that young voters rank higher than the genocide anyway.) I don't think any politician should ignore anyone or any issue but things just have to be prioritized. Yes, I agree one singular issue is not going to decide an election and Biden's campaign could probably use a lot help. Gnumonic posted:Or, to try this another way: Take a look at the actual ranking of most important issues. If I'm reading that correctly, foreign policy is roughly of the same importance as abortion/healthcare. If it were true that issues that aren't ranked highly can be ignored, then the democrats would be justified in completely ignoring abortion & healthcare, since they matter as much as foreign policy. You'd have to be a totally delusional moron to think that those issues don't contribute to people's voting patterns (both whether they vote & who they vote for if they do), even though they're both dwarfed in importance by the economy/inflation. Did you even look at your own source? Because your own source proves my exact point. There's a column for conflict in the Middle East and it's not even in the Top 10. Abortion is twice important is as priority and healthcare is still a higher priority. Gnumonic posted:For fun, observe that "Protecting Democracy", which seems to be the the issue Democrats are leading with, was also only ranked as the most important issue by 3% of the voters - exactly the same as foreign policy or abortion. By your reasoning, most people really don't care about protecting democracy either, so it surely won't influence anyone's vote. A less asinine take on this would be: "Which issue is the most important?" is a totally useless metric for predicting how people are going to vote. I think protecting democracy is important to a lot of people but I look at things way, way more than just a single poll especially one that's delivered during an election season. I don't think it's completely worthless, you just have to take in context. And the context here is that by far and large I/P is a low, low priority on the minds of American voters and it's unlikely to significantly influence the election. Personally, I wish it wasn't like this but you've got understand reality first before you can do anything. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 02:36 on May 5, 2024 |
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May 5, 2024 02:11
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are the haredim on the battlefield yet
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May 5, 2024 07:45
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mahershalalhashbaz posted:are the haredim on the battlefield yet No, they are fighting the ur-viles alongside the Bloodguard
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May 5, 2024 08:10
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Gucci Loafers posted:I have never, ever seen a single article from a traditional outlet like the NY Times to even a vague post from even some redditor that argues and shows that young voters were critical for Biden's victory in 2020. If anything, if you had to pick the most important demographic is suburban white women but if you have anything that says that Muslim American in places like Michigan were critical to Biden's victory or college aged voters are a priority I'd love to see because that's completely different than everything else I've come across. Sounds like the guy who barely scraped out a win against a TV clown doesn't need the votes then, and there will be no need to make VBNMW arguments at these groups. I expect this opinion to age well as November approaches. Biden didn't win the last election by very much, the election was closer than it was in 2016. It won't take much to swing the other way, especially considering how unpopular Biden currently is. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-the-press/did-biden-win-little-or-lot-answer-yes-n1251845 quote:Throughout Trump's time in the White House, much has been made of how he won the presidency by under 78,000 votes in three states. And that point was true. Trump won because of narrow margins in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. Esran fucked around with this message at 09:24 on May 5, 2024 |
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May 5, 2024 09:20
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us policy on israel is not driven by electoral concerns in really any way at all and wrt biden i don't believe that's even remotely a factor he cares about. dude just really likes israel
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May 5, 2024 09:31
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I’m not making a moral judgement about this. It is what it is. But this is the thing, you are blaming "Simple dualistic thinking" for this. You are drawing from history to say that "Hamas knew how the Israeli state would respond" whilst also purposefully not drawing from history about what would have happened if the normalisation had passed through as expected. Your argument is based on trying to say that things are more complex, but in this instance that complexity is based on no foundation. But you've got your moral dig in, it's present every time you talk about how "they must have known what would happen". You are then saying that "because Hamas is a group they have no moral equivalence to an individual" but this is not actually something any level of international law or practice agrees to. Groups frequently are proscribed because of actions committed by them, even States should be. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 09:51 on May 5, 2024 |
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May 5, 2024 09:48
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Herstory Begins Now posted:us policy on israel is not driven by electoral concerns in really any way at all and wrt biden i don't believe that's even remotely a factor he cares about. dude just really likes israel It that were true why did Obama and other democratic presidents treat them pretty much the same way? I think it's easy to say that certain choices are motivated by personal opinions of a given leader but that's hard to prove. I suppose we'll know in 20 years.
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May 5, 2024 10:54
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really every president in the last several decades has treated Israel with an incredible amount of deference which is why I say that US policy wrt Israel does not reflect electoral politics. that's not to say that it has no impact on elections nor that withdrawing support wouldn't have electoral implications either, it's just not really a point that either party differs on significantly
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May 5, 2024 12:14
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I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed yet: https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1786717441529188604?t=kVtPyvVTUK1Rwwa5jfP4OQ&s=19 Haaretz posted:According to the report, Hamas was guaranteed by the U.S. for a full Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and that Israeli forces will not continue fighting once the hostages are released ■ An Israeli official told Haaretz that 'Israel will, under no circumstances, agree to end the war as part of a deal' and is determined to enter Rafah I can't read the rest because I'm not subscribed but it seems like Israel is all in on cleansing the majority of the population from Gaza.
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May 5, 2024 14:44
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I continue to maintain that we probably don't want the Biden administration making their Israel decisions based on electoral math. Even with what might be an ongoing sea change in American views of Israel, driven mostly by the whole "active genocide covered to some degree by mainstream media" thing and a bit by Netanyahu being a colossal dumbass and taking partisan pro-Republican stances, voting support for Israel is probably still stronger. If anything, I think the Biden administration might already be too supportive of Palestinians by this (bad) metric. It's not like aid for Gaza, opposition to west bank settlers, and mediocre ceasefire pressure is getting one single solitary extra vote in these parts, and if/when Netanyahu is ousted / there's a ceasefire that leaves Hamas still existing, the psychos are gonna go round the bend. That's not even counting the possibility of an attack on the pier (unlikely but possible imo), which would be a huge debacle for Biden regardless of who did it. The administration should be pushing to end the blockade and the invasion because it's good policy and genocide is bad. Meanwhile, in the off-topic realm of actual news, Netanyahu's intrasigence towards negotiations is becoming less popular: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/thousands-israelis-protest-demand-hostage-return-2024-05-04/ Can't find the other thing I was reading but it does seem to be mostly about the hostages and Netanyahu not giving a poo poo about them because he's got Arabs to slaughter. rscott posted:I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed yet: There was another thing the other day where a couple media outlets said "yeah, when we were talking about Israeli officials leaking that the government wouldn't negotiate, the official was Bibi".
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May 5, 2024 15:23
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Not really surprising. The Israeli government has nothing to gain from the return of the hostages. If they're returned their single moral argument is gone, and they can't keep pretending a deal is right around the corner. The government itself needs to keep dangling the hostages or Rafah or whatever other military objective will magically destroy Hamas and turn every Palestinian into a Hatikva singing jew. As long as it has that it can keep doing whatever it wants in Gaza and most importantly keep their government seats.
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May 5, 2024 16:22
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kiminewt posted:Not really surprising. The Israeli government has nothing to gain from the return of the hostages. If they're returned their single moral argument is gone, and they can't keep pretending a deal is right around the corner. It's likely that Bibi's political survival is based on continuing this war indefinitely (or at least he thinks that's the case).
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May 5, 2024 17:03
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Goatse James Bond posted:I continue to maintain that we probably don't want the Biden administration making their Israel decisions based on electoral math. Even with what might be an ongoing sea change in American views of Israel, driven mostly by the whole "active genocide covered to some degree by mainstream media" thing and a bit by Netanyahu being a colossal dumbass and taking partisan pro-Republican stances, voting support for Israel is probably still stronger. If anything, I think the Biden administration might already be too supportive of Palestinians by this (bad) metric. It's not like aid for Gaza, opposition to west bank settlers, and mediocre ceasefire pressure is getting one single solitary extra vote in these parts, and if/when Netanyahu is ousted / there's a ceasefire that leaves Hamas still existing, the psychos are gonna go round the bend. That's not even counting the possibility of an attack on the pier (unlikely but possible imo), which would be a huge debacle for Biden regardless of who did it. I don't think you can conclude this simply from opinion polling, for several reasons. A big one, that I already talked about, is that most opinion polls don't tell you what percentage of people who say they support X are single-issue voters on X. Anyone who would answer "yes" to "do you support more aid to Israel", but would still vote for Biden anyway because of abortion/gay rights/Democracy/Trump Derangement Syndrome/gun control/semiconductor subsidies/whatever wouldn't actually be a lost vote. This cuts both ways of course, some number of people who don't support aid will also vote for Biden anyway. Probably a lot when you look at how low most Americans rank I/P policy. But also, public opinion isn't just this unstoppable force of nature that blows politicians helplessly to and fro. Politicians and their media allies actively work to mold and control it (this is what they TikTok ban is about. They are saying, quite openly, that they can't tolerate a media outlet they don't control, which is broadcasting information that conflicts with the government line). Public opinion polling includes the results of these efforts at manufacturing consent. In a world where Democratic politicians weren't committed to supporting Israel, and therefore they and their media allies weren't conducting a 24/7 propaganda campaign to drum up public support for it, polls would probably look different. If anything, the fact that approval is only slightly pro-Israel despite this huge effort to propagandize us is a bad sign for the future as the war drags on. For example, take the Iraq War. It's true that on the eve of war public support for the invasion was 52-59 percent. So you could argue that the Bush administration was just helplessly blown to war by public opinion, after all the "electoral math" suggested he'd lose more votes my not invading, right? But was that the reality, did millions of Americans wake up one morning in 2003 and decide we suddenly needed a Gulf War sequel 11 years later and invent fantasy uranium refineries and demand Bush forget about Osama and go after Saddam. Well, no. Of course, the Bush administration and their friends in the liberal and conservative media relentlessly propagandized the country for a year to manufacture that sentiment. It only existed because they wanted to do the war in the first place. And of course, it only lasted as long as the propaganda could cover up the disaster that was unfolding. The "pro-war" sentiment wasn't a good omen, it was a bad one, a year of bombarding people with fearmongering and hysterical lies and all they got was a bare majority for "oh yeah I guess he's got the weapons and we've gotta get them" VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 17:17 on May 5, 2024 |
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May 5, 2024 17:12
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Josef bugman posted:But this is the thing, you are blaming "Simple dualistic thinking" for this. I’m saying the current rhetoric is simplistic and dualistic. Josef bugman posted:But you've got your moral dig in, it's present every time you talk about how "they must have known what would happen". It’s not a moral judgment. Look at the ongoing dynamic before October 23. There is a feedback loop. Hamas is a participant in that feedback loop. The cycle of oppression leading to radicalization of the oppressed leading to terrorist attacks, leading to more oppression and more radicalization and so on. It’s paternalistic to treat them as an unaware participant. Both the right wing groups in Israel and Hamas are also competing internally against other groups in Isreal and Palestine. The cycle benefits them in competition with those other internal groups. Now the right wing Israelis clearly have more power and are clearly most at fault for driving the loop. But all the participating groups know the dynamics. It’s not a moral judgement to observe this. It’s also a problem to treat Hamas as if they are unaware of it.
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May 5, 2024 17:33
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I’m saying the current rhetoric is simplistic and dualistic. You've said this several times, yet you've never said it's wrong. Something can be simplistic and dualistic, and still correct. Like this.
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May 5, 2024 17:37
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I’m saying the current rhetoric is simplistic and dualistic. Is that a problem?
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May 5, 2024 17:38
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Until Hamas themselves say they've accepted a deal, I'd recommend hesitancy; we've had multiple occasions where countries seem to try to will a deal forward by announcing that major concessions/breakthroughs/agreements have been reached, only for Hamas to say "Israel still wont agree to ending the war, so no." Interesting note, it's something you could have assumed yourself, but it's fascinating for them to be so candid about it: https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1787134138283155963 Explains why the TikTok ban found new life after public opposition left it dead in the water.
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May 5, 2024 18:20
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theCalamity posted:Is that a problem? Yes. Because that’s how a situation where groups that disagree cannot talk to each other is created. That benefits specific groups, the Isreali right who wing who want to continue perpetuating a genocide and in the US Republicans.
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May 5, 2024 18:25
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I’m saying the current rhetoric is simplistic and dualistic. I don't think it's controversial to say that Hamas expected a disproportionate response from Israel. That's a pretty basic tactic in asymmetric warfare, after all: goad an occupying force into an overreaction to stretch them thin and win more recruits for yourself from the occupied populace. What I DO think is probably unfair is to suggest that they could have or should have expected this overblown of a reaction from Israel, ie: one that has seriously damaged Israel's standing among the peoples of the world outside of die-hard Zionists like Biden. Part of Hamas being caught flat-footed on this undoubtedly stems from them being victims of their own success with regard to their encountering far more civilian targets than they expected, thanks to the last-minute nature of the Nova festival. Majorian fucked around with this message at 18:36 on May 5, 2024 |
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May 5, 2024 18:33
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Bar Ran Dun posted:
I'm not really sure who you're disagreeing with or why you're harping so much on information everyone already knows.
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May 5, 2024 18:58
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Yes. The rhetoric you appear to have called out is that Hamas cares about Palestinians. You think saying that Hamas cares about Palestinians benefits those who want to continue the genocide? If I’m wrong about that, which rhetoric do you have a problem with?
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May 5, 2024 19:02
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VitalSigns posted:Has anyone actually argued that Hamas is unaware of Israel's tactics? I think it is plain that Hamas is very familiar with how Israel operates. Israel has a long history of disproportionate responses to attacks, Hamas couldn't possibly not know about it. It's because he doesn't want to outright state that he doesn't think Hamas doesn't care about Palestinians, so he hides behind "well it's an organization not an individual also it's complicated"
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May 5, 2024 19:11
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Neurolimal posted:Until Hamas themselves say they've accepted a deal, I'd recommend hesitancy; we've had multiple occasions where countries seem to try to will a deal forward by announcing that major concessions/breakthroughs/agreements have been reached, only for Hamas to say "Israel still wont agree to ending the war, so no." Can I just ask you to clarify this a bit? It really sounds like you're blaming Hamas for any deal falling through when it's Israel saying "We will not end the war no matter what".
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May 5, 2024 19:13
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Randalor posted:Can I just ask you to clarify this a bit? It really sounds like you're blaming Hamas for any deal falling through when it's Israel saying "We will not end the war no matter what". He’s not blaming Hamas. He’s saying that because the Biden administration and the Israelis talk out of the side of their neck too much, the only trustworthy side is Hamas. This is especially true after Biden’s ice cream gaffe
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May 5, 2024 19:18
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Randalor posted:Can I just ask you to clarify this a bit? It really sounds like you're blaming Hamas for any deal falling through when it's Israel saying "We will not end the war no matter what". They're saying don't buy any media stories about a ceasefire agreement until Hamas themselves actually say "we've agreed to it," which hasn't happened
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May 5, 2024 19:27
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Turns out that the possible invasion of Rafah is enough to move the needle a bit: https://www.axios.com/2024/05/05/israel-us-ammunition-shipment-hold quote:The Biden administration last week put a hold on a shipment of U.S.-made ammunition to Israel, two Israeli officials told Axios. Between the pier, ceasefire talks, and the possible attack, this might be an important week or so.
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May 5, 2024 20:05
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I can swoop in to comment on posting without calling out posters, and come in just under a probe radar. This thread has been better in the past with less levels of bickering. I will say from atop my high horse, from which I offer zero solutions, to suggest we focus on paths that get us to the most peace for the largest number of people possible. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 5, 2024 20:10
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Trump would have not only sped up the shipment, he would have diverted the latest Ukraine aid to Israel too.
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May 5, 2024 20:44
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3rdEyeDeuteranopia posted:Trump would have not only sped up the shipment, he would have diverted the latest Ukraine aid to Israel too. Doubtful. Trump made noises about opposing wars in 2016 too, but in office he surrounded himself with neocons and mostly did whatever they said: bombed Syria, drone attacks, assassinated American citizens and random foreign civilians, assassinated that Iranian general, etc. He really only backed away from the really insane stuff like carpet bombing Iran. US oligarchs are extremely dedicated to bringing Ukraine into the American sphere of influence, Trump is unlikely to resist them regardless of what he says now. He will fall in line with the imperial forever wars just like last time.
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May 5, 2024 20:55
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Esran posted:Sounds like the guy who barely scraped out a win against a TV clown doesn't need the votes then, and there will be no need to make VBNMW arguments at these groups. In the scheme of things, it's not that he doesn't need those votes. It's those are the least of a priority. Again, if you or anyone else has information that a particular demographic could that deeply cares about I/P could significantly influence the election I'd love to see it. Esran posted:Biden didn't win the last election by very much, the election was closer than it was in 2016. It won't take much to swing the other way, especially considering how unpopular Biden currently is. It's true it was a close election, I don't know why you are mentioning this as it's wildly known but the thing is it doesn't matter. I/P isn't a critical issue for the overwhelming majority of voters. I wish it wasn't the case but that's reality. Biden, Trump or really any candidate is infinitely better of focus on other issues than I/P.
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May 5, 2024 20:57
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