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euphronius posted:It’s not uplifting like a hallmark card or whatever . It’s prechristian HERO stuff that motivates our latent(?) death drives Yeah and that makes sense if it were written that way by the extremely Catholic Oxford don, but my suspicion is they had it there in the movie because they didn't want to do two charges.
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May 7, 2024 16:08
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the films rule
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May 7, 2024 16:08
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zoux posted:Yeah and that makes sense if it were written that way by the extremely Catholic Oxford don, but my suspicion is they had it there in the movie because they didn't want to do two charges. It also finishes or nearly finishes Theodens arc wonderfully . Eomer does not have the same story
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May 7, 2024 16:10
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zoux posted:Yeah see, one of the problems I've always had with the movies (which i love) is that that speech coming out of Theodin doesn't really make sense. It's a banger of a speech, unforgettably delivered, but Eomer's version was out of despair and grief, and Theodin's is supposed to be uplifting? It's not really that different to me. The movie has much less time to get across the general mood of the Rohirrim host, but in general, there was not a presupposition that they would win at all. They were going to war with Sauron, and they all knew it was unlikely they would survive, let alone win. Theoden's speech in the book is couched in the single best prose Tolkien ever wrote, and gently caress it lets just post it. Tolkien posted:But at that same moment there was a flash, as if lightning had sprung from the earth beneath the City. For a searing second it stood dazzling far off in black and white, its topmost tower like a glittering needle: and then as the darkness closed again there came rolling over the fields a great boom. In the books the reader already knows the host is dour and resigned to death. In the movie the viewer has spent less time with them, and it helps highlight just how dire that vista would be. In both the book and the movie, the Rohirrim alone can't win and save Gondor. I don't think his speech is meant to be "uplifting" really, its to psyche everyone up to not worry if they die, to throw care to the wind and to charge headlong into an insurmountable foe. The movie just combines both charges into one, and gets across the willingness of the Rohirrim to fight and die in the battle.
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May 7, 2024 16:15
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zoux posted:Yeah and that makes sense if it were written that way by the extremely Catholic Oxford don, but my suspicion is they had it there in the movie because they didn't want to do two charges. For the record, IMO the decision to include the ghosts at the Pelennor is the single worst change in the movies as it fundamentally alters the spirit of the story, and robs Men of their victory over Sauron. They didn't do both charges because they already knew the ghosts would end the battle. Hence they move Eomer finding Eowyn to after the battle is over.
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May 7, 2024 16:19
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Always impressed with the filmmaking that makes it appear the Calvary charge is huge even tho they maybe had a couple of hundred ? People on horseback irl
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May 7, 2024 16:19
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they did a huge casting call and basically had every person with a horse that could get there on set lol. one of my only nitpicks in that scene is everyone keeps their shield strapped to their horse. at what other time would a shield be more needed than charging directly into arrow fire. yes i know this is likely just filmmaking as having extras carry the shield all day would be exhausting and lead to a bunch of continuity problems.
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May 7, 2024 16:22
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euphronius posted:Always impressed with the filmmaking that makes it appear the Calvary charge is huge even tho they maybe had a couple of hundred ? People on horseback irl I remember being blown away by the opening battle in Fellowship, just seeing the thousands of orcs crawling over rock and the line of elves extending into the vanishing point. This was early days before every movie ended with a horde of faceless CGI badguys, it may have been the first time I'd seen something like that. It was such a genius move to open the films that way
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May 7, 2024 16:25
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You are right the change to the ghost soldiers is “the worst”. We are like 10 hours into the movies by then tho so idk. Just get it over with
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May 7, 2024 16:25
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What could be more Tolkienian than dialog originally written for one character ending up delivered by another in a different context?
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May 7, 2024 16:27
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zoux posted:Yeah see, one of the problems I've always had with the movies (which i love) is that that speech coming out of Theodin doesn't really make sense. It's a banger of a speech, unforgettably delivered, but Eomer's version was out of despair and grief, and Theodin's is supposed to be uplifting? The instructions he gives to Eomer, Grimbold and Gamling make more sense in the novel (he's giving them directions just before they pass through the Rammas Echor) but they still kinda work in the film if you assume that "take your company right after you pass the wall" refers to the walls of Minas Tirith rather than the Pelennor's barrier walls. ACOUP made the best point about the distinction between the films and the novels in the way they approach conflict. The films set up battles as a game of escalation. Side 1 plays a new unit, Side 2 responds with a bigger unit to counter. Horse beats Orc, Oliphant beats Horse, Ghost beats Oliphant. Where the novels make battles a question of willpower. It's not about the numbers brought to bear, it's about how willing they are to stand and fight. If courage falters, people run away. It's never a question of if they can stand, it's if they will stand. Or, as Boromir put it in another life: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t0Gk0nffXA Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 16:36 on May 7, 2024 |
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May 7, 2024 16:29
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The whole Dead subplot is one of the weakest points of the book and the movies made it worse. This is supposed to be spooky, gothic. Mysterious gray cloaked men are riding in the supernatural darkness, spirits are following them. It’s loving Night on Bald Mountain out here. The proper tone for Jackson to strike would have been closer to the bit in the Fellowship movie with Butterbur cowering while wraiths skulk into his house. Ghost army in broad daylight swarming over elephants…no thanks.
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May 7, 2024 16:38
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Yeah that was comic-booky
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May 7, 2024 16:39
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euphronius posted:Specially theoden/Eomer are overtaken by a “fey mode” which Tolkien loves . Fey in this sense meaning “ready to die”. Disregard or acceptance of death is very powerful I love this as well, any time someone gets a fey mood or look poo poo is about to go DOWN
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May 7, 2024 16:41
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At least the Ghosts looked loving cool when they were within Dunharrow. The King Under the Mountain looked really cool as his level of transparency kept shifting.
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May 7, 2024 16:42
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Gimili was just massacred as a character in the Jackson movies, as much as I love John Rhys-Davies it was just weird to reduce him to a couple of dwarf tossing jokes. Legolas also got short shrift, and it made me sad that his role was basically guy does a cool stunt and then looks smug about it. I think it was right to bring Arwen in as a character though, otherwise it would basically be 9 dudes walking around. The film made good decisions with Boromir's character and bad desicions with Faramir. I hated the whole paths of the dead part, utter dogshit, and we completely missed out on Ghân-buri-Ghân. My favourite section of the books is probably the whole first third of Fellowship, from Hobbiton to Bree, which is also sadly the bit that Jackson chose to just condense and deleted the entire Old Forrest, Bombadil, and Barrow Wights part (understandable but it hurt me personally). Killing Saruman offscreen was a poo poo choice (I don't care about the extended editions) he should have died at the end of The Two Towers if they didn't intend on doing the Shire fascism subplot. Merry and Pippin were quite annoying.
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May 7, 2024 16:44
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Dwarf tossing aged especially bad because it was one of those Maxim/Man Show adjacent memes. Unless you were of a certain age in 2002 it would have made no sense then, and certainly not now.
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May 7, 2024 16:46
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Movies are going to add in comic relief . I understand why it rubs people the wrong way tho
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May 7, 2024 16:48
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euphronius posted:Movies are going to add in comic relief . I understand why it rubs people the wrong way tho Merry and Pippin fill in this role, especially if Gandalf is there to berate them about it.
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May 7, 2024 16:50
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There’s already loads of comic relief in LOTR and short people comedy specifically. Why add more and crasser? I will die on the hill that Legolas should have been the one to get drunk while Gimli stays sober. It would been far funnier and made much more sense. Dwarves don’t get drunker than elves. What the gently caress
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May 7, 2024 16:52
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Is the drinking scene EE? I don’t remember
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May 7, 2024 16:57
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Legoland should have been drinking that Dorwinion wine in the Hobbit movies and making catcalls at Tauriel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXDBRP5HEQA
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May 7, 2024 16:58
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It was a weird choice to reduce dwarves to goofball and elves to dour serious when the opposite would almost be more true if you had to flatten them like that. Elrond got done a bit dirty by this one dimensionality but not nearly as poorly handled as Faramir and Denethor. I do like book and movie Aragorn both a lot, they are just very different characters.
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May 7, 2024 17:04
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JRD is an excellent comic actor and Orlando blooms range is … uh. Small
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May 7, 2024 17:05
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The movie versions of the Elves are so prevailing in popular culture when I much prefer the crazed murder elves of the Silmarillion who have zero chill.
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May 7, 2024 17:05
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Kaysette posted:It was a weird choice to reduce dwarves to goofball and elves to dour serious when the opposite would almost be more true if you had to flatten them like that. Elrond got done a bit dirty by this one dimensionality but not nearly as poorly handled as Faramir and Denethor. I do like book and movie Aragorn both a lot, they are just very different characters. I like movie Aragorn better but I think we're culturally primed to prefer reluctant and humble heroes and not a guy who goes around saying I am the Rightful King constantly
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May 7, 2024 17:06
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euphronius posted:JRD is an excellent comic actor and Orlando blooms range is … uh. Small I’ll grant you this is probably true and certainly would have seemed true in 2000. but Bloom is hilarious in the Three Musketeers. He’s like a gay sneering steampunk Duke of Buckingham. Best part by miles of a bad movie
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May 7, 2024 17:07
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keep punching joe posted:I think it was right to bring Arwen in as a character though, otherwise it would basically be 9 dudes walking around. The film made good decisions with Boromir's character and bad desicions with Faramir. It still ended up being 9 dudes walking. Arwen was just an expanded love interest role. Now If you really wanted to have women as members of the Fellowship, you could have changed: 1) Either Merry (that's a girls name anyway) or Pippin 2) Legolas (don't need to change a single line) 3) Boromir (Big Sis overshadowing Faramir. Tragio heroine)
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May 7, 2024 17:07
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skasion posted:I’ll grant you this is probably true and certainly would have seemed true in 2000. but Bloom is hilarious in the Three Musketeers. He’s like a gay sneering steampunk Duke of Buckingham. Best part by miles of a bad movie Fair enough He got better as an actor (or directors trust in him grew)
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May 7, 2024 17:08
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zoux posted:I remember being blown away by the opening battle in Fellowship, just seeing the thousands of orcs crawling over rock and the line of elves extending into the vanishing point. This was early days before every movie ended with a horde of faceless CGI badguys, it may have been the first time I'd seen something like that. They developed the technology to do that for those movies, which is why everyone else does it now too.
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May 7, 2024 17:22
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CommonShore posted:. If you ever get a chance to go to the hobbiton set in New Zealand, do so. It's . . .you're there. You're just there.
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May 7, 2024 17:24
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Arc Hammer posted:The movie versions of the Elves are so prevailing in popular culture when I much prefer the crazed murder elves of the Silmarillion who have zero chill. The RoP show wussing out on this is another failure in its litany of them.
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May 7, 2024 17:45
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zoux posted:I remember being blown away by the opening battle in Fellowship, just seeing the thousands of orcs crawling over rock and the line of elves extending into the vanishing point. This was early days before every movie ended with a horde of faceless CGI badguys, it may have been the first time I'd seen something like that. My uncle was nine when A New Hope came out and has told me about the utter astonishment, the total mouth-agape spectacle of William's fanfare, the scrolling text, then the star destroyer consuming the screen. That's exactly what I felt seeing the first few minutes of Fellowship when it came out. "Hey, cool prolog  "
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May 7, 2024 17:54
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zoux posted:Dwarf tossing aged especially bad because it was one of those Maxim/Man Show adjacent memes. Unless you were of a certain age in 2002 it would have made no sense then, and certainly not now. Yeah and Legolas—the joke I always made at the time with my friends (yes I'll cop to it) was that Legolas was basically our Indian friend, Indian Companion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlX7BeEVr2o "Someone coming"
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May 7, 2024 18:49
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Issaries posted:It still ended up being 9 dudes walking. Arwen was just an expanded love interest role. Looking back now, I think they actually should have put Arwen at helm’s deep, but with a company of Rivendell elves + Rangers. That would have been truer to the source (with Arwen standing in for her brothers), would still have communicated that elves are making their own sacrifices as the film tried to do with the elves from Lorien, and would have kept Arwen as involved in things as she was in Fellowship. And the two most important female characters could actually meet and talk to each other. Now how do you explain what Arwen’s up to in ROTK? Eh, problem for another day.
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May 7, 2024 19:07
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Zoran posted:Now how do you explain what Arwen’s up to in ROTK? Eh, problem for another day. Aragorn just rejects them both at the entrance to the paths of the dead and the movie glosses over it
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May 7, 2024 19:13
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Changing Treebeard and the ents to be morons kinda sucked too. I'm sure some screenwriter was like hey there's no tension here if the ents just decide on their own to gently caress Saruman up we need to make Treebeard be an idiot instead and give Merry and Pippin more agency. But it's a poo poo change. Treebeard is supposed to be more or less the wisest creature in middle earth, and the ents helping out is supposed to show how Saruman and Sauron's trepidations have affected more than just men and elves. I also quite detest movie Denethor. Not the actor per se, but the choices they made with him. As with Treebeard they took one of the most badass book characters and basically reduced him to a bumbling buffoon. Denethor is tragically flawed in the books but he's also the closest character there is to Gandalf. He's smart as a god damned whip and pretty deadly in his own right. He's like Gandalf if Gandalf gave in to despair. But I dunno you know the movies are pretty solid for the most part. Probably about the best adaptation one could realistically expect.
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May 7, 2024 19:23
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Ginette Reno posted:But I dunno you know the movies are pretty solid for the most part. Probably about the best adaptation one could realistically expect. Yeah both of those are not good changes, but i can see the moviemaking logic where they came from, so i mostly just move past them. i single out the army of the dead because its very clear they just went "we spent all this money/time on those zombies, we will use them as much as we can." and changed a big part of the book's actual theme. Similar with Faramir, they had moviemaking logic for why poo poo got jumbled around. No one reading the book is confused about how Faramir is this dope near perfect guy but somehow inferior to Aragorn, but to a movie audience it would be jarring and weird to have some random dude you meet in the third movie just refuse the Ring and do what no one else could. I'm not saying anyone has to like the changes, just that for almost all of them they did at least have a logic to the decision.
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May 7, 2024 19:28
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The Treebeard thing is so weirdly incoherent. The first scene they meet him he’s actively, homicidally raging out about orcs mulching his trees. Then they go and take it to the moot and he’s like “sorry, can’t help, this isn’t really our problem I guess”. Then they have to go show him his own mulched trees so he can rage out again. Huh? Did he forget? Maybe we’re meant to assume the other ents convinced him he was freaking out about nothing, but none of them get any lines or personality so idk how.
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May 7, 2024 19:29
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it is a bit incoherent, iirc from the extra material, their problem was there is not much for Merry and Pippen to do during TT. They get abducted and then after the Rohirrim kill the orcs, they are just witnesses to the ent's activities. That's a tough spot when you are trying to keep those 2 characters relevant to the audience but the actual book material does not give them much in terms of agency.
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May 7, 2024 19:35
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