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Just finished reading lotr for the first time and I am absolutely crushed that it’s over. Like, I almost cried at the ‘everyone was contented and happy, except the hobbits who had to mow the grass’ line after the scouring because it’s just so perfect. I’m finding it hard to transition to the hobbit.
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May 8, 2024 03:47
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 14:41 |
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Flappy Bert posted:The funny part is that this was the original plan, scenes were put on film with Arwen at Helm's Deep leading the elves but it was eventually rewritten as Haldir. I don't exactly remember why it was changed but I want to say it was being edited around when the first movie came out and the backlash from changing Glorfindel made Jackson not want to push further? The backlash gave them pause but the story I've heard is that when they started working out Eowyn's arc they realized that having Arwen as the sword-swinging action heroine would trivialize Eowyn's ... everything.
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May 8, 2024 04:48
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cheetah7071 posted:Replacing Glorfindel was good, I'm not entirely sure why anybody complains about that I'll complain because I wanted them to put in a glorious gold-haired reincarnated Balrog-fighting Noldor Elf-lord. He was the one who made the "not by the hand of man" prediction about the Witch-king, so it's satisfying to have him face off against the Nazgul at the Fords. I get that they wanted to have Arwen in the movie more, if only so we didn't have people trying to remember who the hell she is by the time they got the end of RotK... also Glorfindel was the one who suggested sending the ring to Tom Bombadil during the Council, so I guess he had to go.
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May 8, 2024 16:17
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Pham Nuwen posted:I'll complain because I wanted them to put in a glorious gold-haired reincarnated Balrog-fighting Noldor Elf-lord. He was the one who made the "not by the hand of man" prediction about the Witch-king, so it's satisfying to have him face off against the Nazgul at the Fords. The problem with Glorfindel is that he requires a ton of backstory to explain why he's such a big deal and then he just disappears from the story entirely.
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May 8, 2024 16:57
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Elrond: No, he's TOO badass.
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May 8, 2024 17:00
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Sure it ends up working out, but really there is zero good reason for Elrond to not have also sent Glorfindel along as well.
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May 8, 2024 17:06
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He’s too bright and sparkly. Sauron would have seen him immediately
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May 8, 2024 17:07
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Yeah, my understanding is that in the spirit world, he's basically the top of the Luxor Casino
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May 8, 2024 17:11
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Sure it ends up working out, but really there is zero good reason for Elrond to not have also sent Glorfindel along as well. Theres a really good reason, given immediately by Gandalf. “Even if you chose for us an Elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road to the Fire by the power that is in him.” Not only is his power not enough, but no amount of power will ever destroy the Ring of Power. Humility and weakness destroy it, not power. The more powerful you are, the more dangerous it is. The whole point of Galadriel’s rant later is to show exactly why they didn’t trust the ring to a prince of the Noldor.
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May 8, 2024 17:19
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Bormoir and Aragorn are far riskier to have around the Ring. Elrond looks at the heir to the Steward and the heir of the guy who already failed to destroy it once to the one and goes "yeah what can go wrong"
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May 8, 2024 17:23
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Bormoir and Aragorn are far riskier to have around the Ring. Elrond looks at the heir to the Steward and the heir of the guy who already failed to destroy it once to the one and goes "yeah what can go wrong" They’re men. They could definitely do harm but surely nothing compared to an immortal who has dwelt in the blessed realm. The biggest risk in the group is Gandalf, but Elrond can’t tell him what to do.
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May 8, 2024 17:27
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I mean I'm mostly joking here, but the entire thing is a desperate shot in the dark to begin with and the fellowship/Frodo being captured is a far greater threat than the Ring corrupting them. Even if Glorfindel did succumb to temptation, it's likely a better outcome than Sauron just getting it delivered to him.
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May 8, 2024 17:37
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Even if Glorfindel did succumb to temptation, it's likely a better outcome than Sauron just getting it delivered to him. It would end up the same, just maybe take a bit longer.
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May 8, 2024 17:38
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Ravenfood posted:It would end up the same, just maybe take a bit longer. Even the very wise cannot see all ends
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May 8, 2024 17:47
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It would be even worse! Glorfindel already knows all the stuff the good guys keep secret from Sauron. Good luck hiding Rivendell/Lorien from him. No one but the council attendees would even know they should oppose him! “Not dark but beautiful and terrible”… and he’s here to fight Sauron! People would worship a leader like that. It’d be the First Age all over again.
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May 8, 2024 17:51
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skasion posted:It’d be the First Age all over again. Oh, so it would rule
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May 8, 2024 17:53
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oh no not a leader that thinks the ends justify the means and secures power for themselves and their family over everyone else thank gently caress Aragorn saved us from that ever happening
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May 8, 2024 17:57
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zoux posted:Oh, so it would rule For a while, then it would end very badly.
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May 8, 2024 17:57
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WoodrowSkillson posted:oh no not a leader that thinks the ends justify the means and secures power for themselves and their family over everyone else thank gently caress Aragorn saved us from that ever happening He did, by willingly dying
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May 8, 2024 17:59
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somewhere in this is a thesis about Tolkien's understanding of the role of an enlightened nobility, the divine right of kings, and class struggle
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May 8, 2024 18:00
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Lemniscate Blue posted:For a while, then it would end very badly. Oh ye of little faith God's got this!
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May 8, 2024 18:01
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workshopping some more takes about how actually it would have been good if Glorfindel, Gandalf, Elrond, or Galadriel claimed the Ring
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May 8, 2024 18:02
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WoodrowSkillson posted:somewhere in this is a thesis about Tolkien's understanding of the role of an enlightened nobility, the divine right of kings, and class struggle He thinks they rule, loves it, hates it.
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May 8, 2024 18:06
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WoodrowSkillson posted:somewhere in this is a thesis about Tolkien's understanding of the role of an enlightened nobility, the divine right of kings, and class struggle They could do it as a novel where the last few incarnate gods are killed or forsake the world, a highly cultured tramp is elected king by common consent, and a manservant becomes master of the house. Any title ideas?
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May 8, 2024 18:09
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Boromir is a risk but he’s also a super bad rear end and - don’t forget- was literally called by God or one of the gods to be at the meeting. He was ordained by explicit divine message to be there at that moment. Which I think probably weighed heavy in Elronds mind
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May 8, 2024 18:12
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euphronius posted:Boromir is a risk but he’s also a super bad rear end and - don’t forget- was literally called by God or one of the gods to be at the meeting. He was ordained by explicit divine message to be there at that moment. Which I think probably weighed heavy in Elronds mind He’s also gotta go home anyway. Might as well travel together. This is why Gimli and Legolas go along, after all, it’s not like they were ever planning to go to Mordor.
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May 8, 2024 18:14
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Even Galadriel is like “yo this Boromir fellow is going to go crazy “ and still lets Frodo go with him
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May 8, 2024 18:30
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euphronius posted:Even Galadriel is like “yo this Boromir fellow is going to go crazy “ and still lets Frodo go with him Sure! It’s not like they’d kick him out to find his own way home just because he’s struggling. That would be psycho poo poo. Also, someone’s gotta row the boats and unfortunately half the company is very short.
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May 8, 2024 18:42
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Elrond also wasn't minmaxing the party for optimum ring resistance, he was throwing together whoever was willing and available. I think Gandalf persuades him Merry and Pippin should go because sure, why the gently caress not, it's not like this has less than a million to one odds of even working
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May 8, 2024 19:05
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And because "they're friends and that counts for something"
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May 8, 2024 19:12
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right thats my actual logic behind asking why the gently caress not? biblo and sam make sense but the other 2 are entirely superfluous and its not like 10 people is somehow stealthier than 9 when its Glorfindel and they have Gandalf there anyway. obviously there are very good reasons why Tolkien did not just write a story about a badass group of heroes just kicking rear end the whole time, that's not the story he wanted to tell, but it just makes me laugh because there are like 10 different times he really really would have been helpful to have around
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May 8, 2024 19:27
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I reread it. Boromir is in becuase he’s going back to MT and so is Aragorn. Yeah
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May 8, 2024 19:31
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“Had I a host of Elves in armour of the Elder Days, it would avail little, save to arouse the power of Mordor.”
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May 8, 2024 19:32
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But a host of elves and men defeated a ringed Sauron before
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May 8, 2024 19:38
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Yeah but they had like superstar MVPs in their prime
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May 8, 2024 19:38
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euphronius posted:Boromir is a risk but he’s also a super bad rear end and - don’t forget- was literally called by God or one of the gods to be at the meeting. He was ordained by explicit divine message to be there at that moment. Which I think probably weighed heavy in Elronds mind I’ve always thought Boromir outright lied about having that dream, cause he was jealous of his cooler wimpier brother getting messages from god.
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May 8, 2024 19:57
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WoodrowSkillson posted:it just makes me laugh because there are like 10 different times he really really would have been helpful to have around I hope the preceding sentence conjured up a mental image as amusing to you as it was to me 
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May 8, 2024 20:11
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Wolfechu posted:Elrond also wasn't minmaxing the party for optimum ring resistance, he was throwing together whoever was willing and available. I think Gandalf persuades him Merry and Pippin should go because sure, why the gently caress not, it's not like this has less than a million to one odds of even working He explicitly doesn't do that because sending some OP elf lords with Frodo is just going to draw Sauron's attention and doom the quest. euphronius posted:“Had I a host of Elves in armour of the Elder Days, it would avail little, save to arouse the power of Mordor.”
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May 8, 2024 20:23
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truly, sending the single most easily discerned dude in history, a dwarven noble, an elven royal, and 2 human royals along with 4 country yokels will just blend right in
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May 8, 2024 20:28
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Compared to other Maiar, Gandalf is subtle.
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May 8, 2024 20:29
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