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Joe Chip
Jan 4, 2014
Any book recommendations for a history of the Korean War? I've been trying to listen to Blowback S3 but I have a hard time retaining information from podcasts. I checked their sources list and it's extensive but I only really have time for 1 or 2 books.

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CN CREW-VESSEL
Feb 1, 2024

敌人磨刀我们也磨刀
Pretty insane presentation at work, which used Blum's My Word! Plagiarism and College Culture. Wondering what level of liberalism this is, because I couldn't pin down the types of liberalism and PMC culture in play:

"Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. not only was a minister and a civil rights activist but also had earned a doctorate in theology at Boston University. In 1988, while working on annotating his papers, researchers were disheartened to realize that substantial amounts of his writing revealed pervasive plagiarism. Since King was not alive to answer the charges, the question was essentially one of how history should regard his legacy. In general, it seems to have been agreed that he had gone on to lead a life of great importance despite his significant and lifelong tendency to use others’ words without crediting them.

Some people responded with anger at King’s professors at Crozer Theological Seminary and Boston University, where his dissertation included significant verbatim copying from Paul Tillich and other prominent theologians and philosophers. They claimed that the professors were racist for not having held a capable young black man to a higher standard. Some excused his plagiarism as a common practice in African American discourse. Others condemned his plagiarism but retained a high regard for his character, focusing on the effects of his activism (that is, they judged him by historical standards as an activist rather than by publication standards as a scholar). Still others excoriated his defenders as soft- headed liberal affirmative action apologists.

Whether exculpated or vilified, King was either a uniquely gifted employer of an African American tendency toward intertextuality or a fraud who deserved neither his fame nor even his doctoral degree. Racism! Oversimplification! Literal-minded legalism! Whatever the accusation, the case remains highly charged."

bedpan
Apr 23, 2008

CN CREW-VESSEL posted:

Pretty insane presentation at work, which used Blum's My Word! Plagiarism and College Culture. Wondering what level of liberalism this is, because I couldn't pin down the types of liberalism and PMC culture in play:

"Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. not only was a minister and a civil rights activist but also had earned a doctorate in theology at Boston University. In 1988, while working on annotating his papers, researchers were disheartened to realize that substantial amounts of his writing revealed pervasive plagiarism. Since King was not alive to answer the charges, the question was essentially one of how history should regard his legacy. In general, it seems to have been agreed that he had gone on to lead a life of great importance despite his significant and lifelong tendency to use others’ words without crediting them.

Some people responded with anger at King’s professors at Crozer Theological Seminary and Boston University, where his dissertation included significant verbatim copying from Paul Tillich and other prominent theologians and philosophers. They claimed that the professors were racist for not having held a capable young black man to a higher standard. Some excused his plagiarism as a common practice in African American discourse. Others condemned his plagiarism but retained a high regard for his character, focusing on the effects of his activism (that is, they judged him by historical standards as an activist rather than by publication standards as a scholar). Still others excoriated his defenders as soft- headed liberal affirmative action apologists.

Whether exculpated or vilified, King was either a uniquely gifted employer of an African American tendency toward intertextuality or a fraud who deserved neither his fame nor even his doctoral degree. Racism! Oversimplification! Literal-minded legalism! Whatever the accusation, the case remains highly charged."

hmm, so like with everything else, the the truth on MLK is in the middle?

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
Maybe MLK used those words significantly better than whoever first came up with them and thus ought to be entitled to them.

Aristotelian takes on plagiarism up in this bitch.

bedpan
Apr 23, 2008

the rise in concern about "plagiarism" tracks 100% with the equal rise in deskilling of academia and education services companies who will write your lesson plans from top to bottom

CN CREW-VESSEL
Feb 1, 2024

敌人磨刀我们也磨刀

bedpan posted:

the rise in concern about "plagiarism" tracks 100% with the equal rise in deskilling of academia and education services companies who will write your lesson plans from top to bottom

A friend of mine said his mid-size Canadian university has 1700 cases under investigation among undergrads, just in the Humanities, Arts, and Social Sciences, this semester.

The PMC-ificaiton of professors, who are willing to kick poo poo up to the Dean at a moment's notice is unreal.

There have been like four books written on plagiarism recently, and they all define it as vibes, which seems like a tenuous thing to make a 21 year old freak out in front of a hearing over.

Mr. Sharps
Jul 30, 2006

The only true law is that which leads to freedom. There is no other.



lol at asking anybody under 30 to come up with an original idea

AnimeIsTrash
Jun 30, 2018

Joe Chip posted:

Any book recommendations for a history of the Korean War? I've been trying to listen to Blowback S3 but I have a hard time retaining information from podcasts. I checked their sources list and it's extensive but I only really have time for 1 or 2 books.

bruce cummings book on the korean war is probably the bible on the conflict

Azathoth
Apr 3, 2001

Mr. Sharps posted:

lol at asking anybody under 30 to come up with an original idea

that goes double for theologians, who very rarely write fully new, unique theologies of their own and either just follow someone whose views resonate with them or mash up a few of them into something that might be charitably called a new theology but are usually just a quilt of their influences. it's not great that MLK didn't properly cite but as someone who has read a bunch of Tillich recently, it's extremely hard for me to believe that anyone who was reading a theology doctoral dissertation wouldn't immediately be able to pick out Tillich's ideas, he's pretty distinct, to say nothing of how he's regarded as one of the most influential theologians of the 20th century.

CN CREW-VESSEL
Feb 1, 2024

敌人磨刀我们也磨刀
John Toland's book is old, but matter of factly talks about US preparations to use chemical weapons, and alleges that biological weapons were used, which people tip toe around or pretend was never discussed now.

mycomancy
Oct 16, 2016

Mr. Sharps posted:

lol at asking anybody under 30 to come up with an original idea

Who cares if you come up with an original idea or not, just cite your loving sources! It's so easy!

AnimeIsTrash
Jun 30, 2018

Mr. Sharps posted:

lol at asking anybody under 30 to come up with an original idea

stewie griffin politics

Mr. Sharps
Jul 30, 2006

The only true law is that which leads to freedom. There is no other.



Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtiloI_rZ5A

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.
Anyone knows about recent polish history? While talking with my parents tonight we talked about Poland for a bit (mostly about polish food) and they mentioned Lech Walessa as this great polish man. I looked at wikipedia and it seems he was an anticommunist who got a lot of good press in the west.

Teriyaki Hairpiece
Dec 29, 2006

I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

Joe Chip posted:

Any book recommendations for a history of the Korean War? I've been trying to listen to Blowback S3 but I have a hard time retaining information from podcasts. I checked their sources list and it's extensive but I only really have time for 1 or 2 books.

The Korean War: A History by Bruce Cumings

You can just read that instead of listening to Blowback season 3, despite their extensive lost of sources it's the book they mainly use

Peggotty
May 9, 2014

Yeah it's the best one, and it's also very short and concise. it does assume some amount of previous knowledge though, I felt like it was mostly addressing an audience of Americans who already know the US propaganda version of what happened.

Dancer
May 23, 2011
Can someone suggest some reading materiel re: the Soviet "occupation" of the baltics? Obviously this is a very hard thing to Google, and the average result I get seems to be very Political, and idealist.

CN CREW-VESSEL
Feb 1, 2024

敌人磨刀我们也磨刀

MonsieurChoc posted:

Anyone knows about recent polish history? While talking with my parents tonight we talked about Poland for a bit (mostly about polish food) and they mentioned Lech Walessa as this great polish man. I looked at wikipedia and it seems he was an anticommunist who got a lot of good press in the west.

The same was true about Orban until very recently. They're cut from the same cloth.

051324
May 13, 2024
All of these countries all of a sudden having 12+ year long dictators

War and Pieces
Apr 24, 2022

DID NOT VOTE FOR FETTERMAN

051324 posted:

All of these countries all of a sudden having 12+ year long dictators

good thing Armenia keeps having color revolutions before that can happen right?

Teriyaki Hairpiece
Dec 29, 2006

I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

Dancer posted:

Can someone suggest some reading materiel re: the Soviet "occupation" of the baltics? Obviously this is a very hard thing to Google, and the average result I get seems to be very Political, and idealist.

Not unbiased and a novel, but read Treading Air by Jaan Kross

Teriyaki Hairpiece
Dec 29, 2006

I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

Peggotty posted:

Yeah it's the best one, and it's also very short and concise. it does assume some amount of previous knowledge though, I felt like it was mostly addressing an audience of Americans who already know the US propaganda version of what happened.

You're right, Blowback season 3 is way more broadly informative

bedpan
Apr 23, 2008

mycomancy posted:

Who cares if you come up with an original idea or not, just cite your loving sources! It's so easy!

lmao its not about citing sources

Fish of hemp
Apr 1, 2011

A friendly little mouse!

051324 posted:

All of these countries all of a sudden having 12+ year long dictators

Baltic countries having dictators after 1991? :confused:

AnimeIsTrash
Jun 30, 2018

giving up a dictatorship of the proletariat for adolf hitler politics

V. Illych L.
Apr 11, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

mycomancy posted:

Who cares if you come up with an original idea or not, just cite your loving sources! It's so easy!

it was substantially more difficult before computer technology became widespread - you'd have to dig up the actual physical volume and remember where you found the claim in question instead of keeping a huge virtual binder of [every paper] with a small note on each which you can find using what amounts to a search engine

imo plagiarism has become such a huge deal for several reasons:

1) it's a formal criterion of completion, so it's an uncontroversial point of regulation
2) the academy is fully a mass-endeavour nowadays (meaning that you can be as harsh as you need; so long as the criteria are purely formal you don't need to worry about taking out anyone important)
3) higher education is seen now more than it used to be as a direct investment into one's own self and thus a diploma is a kind of security; the integrity of that security is something in which many people have a direct financial stake

plagiarism becoming a greater taboo is natural with these factors combined with the technological ability to easily track and test it

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
And yet the blatant plagiariasm never sticks to Dershowitz.

CN CREW-VESSEL
Feb 1, 2024

敌人磨刀我们也磨刀

V. Illych L. posted:

it was substantially more difficult before computer technology became widespread - you'd have to dig up the actual physical volume and remember where you found the claim in question instead of keeping a huge virtual binder of [every paper] with a small note on each which you can find using what amounts to a search engine

imo plagiarism has become such a huge deal for several reasons:

1) it's a formal criterion of completion, so it's an uncontroversial point of regulation
2) the academy is fully a mass-endeavour nowadays (meaning that you can be as harsh as you need; so long as the criteria are purely formal you don't need to worry about taking out anyone important)
3) higher education is seen now more than it used to be as a direct investment into one's own self and thus a diploma is a kind of security; the integrity of that security is something in which many people have a direct financial stake

plagiarism becoming a greater taboo is natural with these factors combined with the technological ability to easily track and test it

I think it's a bit crazy how often they're throwing this around, but as bad as it is in Canada it's provoked something like hysteria in the German academy, where special commissioners are being appointed to investigate people and I guess dredge through old dissertations, which strikes me as loving insane.

Dr. Jerrold Coe
Feb 6, 2021

Is it me?

CN CREW-VESSEL posted:

John Toland's book is old, but matter of factly talks about US preparations to use chemical weapons, and alleges that biological weapons were used, which people tip toe around or pretend was never discussed now.

milton leitenberg still pops up to lie about his secret Russian documents that prove it was all a commie hoax whenever the subject breaches containment. the reddit askhistorians mods use him as their be-all end-all source, lol

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

Would history be much different if Lincoln somehow lost in 1864?

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold
given that the war was pretty much over by the time of the inauguration in ‘65 and that Johnson and McClellan had pro-southern views, probably not lol

MeatwadIsGod
Sep 30, 2004

Foretold by Gyromancy

Some Guy TT posted:

Would history be much different if Lincoln somehow lost in 1864?

McClellan was running on a platform of "finish the war but revert to the the antebellum status quo afterwards." The war would have needed to go disastrously for the Union in order for War Democrats to win though, to the point that any outcome that would have seen a McClellan electoral victory probably would have meant a Confederate military victory afterwards. At least with Lincoln's victory and the subsequent push for emancipation the institution of chattel slavery was done away with. Granted, a hell of a lot more should have been accomplished given the scale of the war, the bloodshed, and the inclinations of the Radical Republicans in Congress, but with a McClellan admin the slave power probably would have kept the institution intact for awhile.

MeatwadIsGod has issued a correction as of 04:37 on May 14, 2024

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

MeatwadIsGod posted:

McClellan was running on a platform of "finish the war but revert to the the antebellum status quo afterwards." The war would have needed to go disastrously for the Union in order for War Democrats to win though, to the point that any outcome that would have seen a McClellan electoral victory probably would have meant a Confederate military victory afterwards.

that doesnt make any sense why would the direction of the war have anything to do with who won that election surely it was just a matter of who had the snappiest campaign slogans

Raskolnikov38
Mar 3, 2007

We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold
oh then Lincoln’s victory was never in doubt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHSIaD9GWiE

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:

Some Guy TT posted:

that doesnt make any sense why would the direction of the war have anything to do with who won that election surely it was just a matter of who had the snappiest campaign slogans
snappy campaign slogans won the war historically

MeatwadIsGod
Sep 30, 2004

Foretold by Gyromancy
It's hilarious that southern Democrats in 1860 made fun of Lincoln for attracting nothing but "greasy mechanics and mudsills" and his campaigners made "Mudsills for A. Lincoln" banners

CN CREW-VESSEL
Feb 1, 2024

敌人磨刀我们也磨刀

Raskolnikov38 posted:

oh then Lincoln’s victory was never in doubt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHSIaD9GWiE

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IzmzLH_EVZI&pp=ygUad2UnbGwgZmlnaHQgZm9yIHVuY2xlIHNhbSA%3D

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e9Sq7rV3EVU&pp=ygUcd2UgYXJlIGNvbWluZyBmYXRoZXIgYWJyYWhhbQ%3D%3D

Chamale
Jul 11, 2010

I'm helping!



In the unlikely scenario of the war following a similar course, but McLellan winning the 1864 election, I think that the political violence, and the inability of Congress to resolve anything, would be even worse than the 1850s.

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V. Illych L.
Apr 11, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

Orange Devil posted:

And yet the blatant plagiariasm never sticks to Dershowitz.

no of course not he's a real person, if there's consequences for him then there might be consequences for other real people

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