|
Alhazred posted:I think it's very funny that Norway has become one of the world's largest producer and consumer of crime story even though the crime rate is so low. There's been less than 10 confirmed serial killers in Norway the last 200 years and yet there's hundreds of books about grizzled old detectives hunting them in our books. Well duh there aren't any serial killers, they're getting hunted to extinction by the detectives.
|
#
?
May 8, 2024 18:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 21:39 |
|
|
Randalor posted:They tried that. It led to the Condiment King. According to himself in Lego DC Super Villains, "Fools! The Condiment King pays his staff a LIVING WAGE!" So more like him would be a net good for the world.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2024 19:14
|
|
|
Alhazred posted:I think it's very funny that Norway has become one of the world's largest producer and consumer of crime story even though the crime rate is so low. There's been less than 10 confirmed serial killers in Norway the last 200 years and yet there's hundreds of books about grizzled old detectives hunting them in our books. I can't remember where I read it, but apparently there is a strong inverse correlation between how badly affected a population is by a crime and how much they want to read/watch fiction about it. It's like a nice, safe way to experience murder without actually having to have a lot of murders happen.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2024 20:41
|
|
|
Splicer posted:The thing that annoys me about any form of procedural of mystery or whatever crime show is that there's always a murder. Even when it starts out as some other crime eventually the guy also murders someone. Like there's no way to make the audience actually care unless someone's dead. Ace Attorney is wild for this. Gotta have a corpse at any rate. Very few exceptions.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2024 22:41
|
|
|
Splicer posted:The thing that annoys me about any form of procedural of mystery or whatever crime show is that there's always a murder. Even when it starts out as some other crime eventually the guy also murders someone. Like there's no way to make the audience actually care unless someone's dead. There have been authors who have written mysteries about other crimes, but they tend not to be as popular. Lots of people have tried to figure out why, but I like James N. Frey's explanation from his book How to Write a Damned Good Mystery: quote:In a mystery, death, which to all of us seems so arbitrary and irrational, is made logical and rational. The hero, using reason, triumphs over irrational death in a symbolic way. The mystery touches us in the deepest part of our being because it shows that death is accountable to reason. When we finish a drat good mystery, we feel that the human condition is not entirely at the mercy of irrational forces set on destroying each of us.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 00:13
|
|
|
Splicer posted:The thing that annoys me about any form of procedural of mystery or whatever crime show is that there's always a murder. Even when it starts out as some other crime eventually the guy also murders someone. Like there's no way to make the audience actually care unless someone's dead. There was actually a "rule" about this in a fairly influential list of rules to keep in mind when writing detective stories. Most of the rules on this list are about not keeping the crime unsolvable to the reader or using unfair solutions such as a twin that has never been brought up before. The rule reads like this. "7. There simply must be a corpse in a detective novel, and the deader the corpse the better. No lesser crime than murder will suffice. Three hundred pages is far too much pother for a crime other than murder. After all, the reader's trouble and expenditure of energy must be rewarded." When I went looking for the exact rule to post here, I found out that this wasn't the most well known list of informal rules for mystery writers. The first list that shows up in google, and the only one to be featured in the wikipedia page for golden age detective fiction was one called The Ten Commandments of Detective Fiction, written by an English author in 1929. This one has one rule that stands out quite a bit from the rest, see if you can spot it. 1. The criminal must be mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to know. 2. All supernatural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course. 3. Not more than one secret room or passage is allowable. 4. No hitherto undiscovered poisons may be used, nor any appliance which will need a long scientific explanation at the end. 5. No Chinaman must figure in the story.[Note 1] 6. No accident must ever help the detective, nor must he ever have an unaccountable intuition which proves to be right. 7. The detective himself must not commit the crime. 8. The detective is bound to declare any clues which he may discover. 9. The "sidekick" of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal from the reader any thoughts which pass through his mind: his intelligence must be slightly, but very slightly, below that of the average reader. 10. Twin brothers, and doubles generally, must not appear unless we have been duly prepared for them.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 00:27
|
|
|
What was Note 1?
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 00:39
|
|
|
Rascar Capac posted:What was Note 1? A racist explanation of why he wrote the rule. Here it is for those who want to read it "I see no reason in the nature of things why a Chinaman should spoil a detective story. But as a matter of fact, if you are turning over the pages of an unknown romance in a bookstore, and come across some mention of the narrow, slit-like eyes of Chin Loo, avoid that story; it is bad." Offler has a new favorite as of 00:44 on May 9, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 00:42
|
|
|
Because of course the audience will assume the perfidious Chinaman is responsible even if he is not. Is my guess.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 00:42
|
|
|
Well, a broken clock's right twice a day: if you're going to call them that, then you shouldn't be writing characters who are Chinese people
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 00:42
|
|
|
Actually, reading it more carefully it seems like he was writing it because so many stories in the 20s featured racist cliches, so I guess the rule is there to curb that. My apologies to the long-dead author of the list.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 00:53
|
|
|
For my mysteries I just subscribe to Chandler's rule when you hit a block on your story, have someone enter the room with gun in hand
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 00:58
|
|
|
bunnyofdoom posted:For my mysteries I just subscribe to Chandler's rule Crap, I'm three pages into my mystery novel and I've got thirty people with guns jammed in a phone booth.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 01:17
|
|
|
Elissimpark posted:Crap, I'm three pages into my mystery novel and I've got thirty people with guns jammed in a phone booth. M. NIGHT SHYAMALAN TWIST: it's an isekai where the protagonist got dropped into a detective-themed video game but the protagonist is Josh from Let's Game It Out
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 01:22
|
|
|
Offler posted:Actually, reading it more carefully it seems like he was writing it because so many stories in the 20s featured racist cliches, so I guess the rule is there to curb that. My apologies to the long-dead author of the list. Yeah, the whole point was that racial stereotype supervillains were a lazy author's favourite so much at the time (and then some) that they were a tired cliche even as a red herring. Similar to the rest of the list being basically warnings against cheap cliches. This is specifically a set of rules about a 'fair play' kind of mystery, where the reader is given enough clues to potentially figure out the solution before the story itself reveals it. Sherlock Holmes for example rarely has that, though funnily enough the few stories where Sherlock himself is 'writing' them rather than Watson tend to feature more clues beforehand, if often obscure ones.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 01:23
|
|
|
InediblePenguin posted:M. NIGHT SHYAMALAN TWIST: it's an isekai where the protagonist got dropped into a detective-themed video game but the protagonist is Josh from Let's Game It Out Shoulda known when you found out your name was MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMlorp.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 01:26
|
|
|
InediblePenguin posted:M. NIGHT SHYAMALAN TWIST: it's an isekai where the protagonist got dropped into a detective-themed video game but the protagonist is Josh from Let's Game It Out actual lol, I can hear this comment
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 01:26
|
|
|
CJacobs posted:My local news station (US) does this and it is baffling. They do poo poo like announce people have died or an accident has happened with no context in the last two seconds before a commercial break, like an upcoming guest on a talk show. It's sickening and def a result of the former popularity of miserable shows like homicide dramas and COPS They started doing it long before home internet access was common as a way to keep viewers watching, rather than switching channels (or turning the TV of) during commercials. I guess it still works because most people who are watching the TV news aren't going to bother googling the thing they know they're about to hear anyway.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 04:00
|
|
|
David Cage seems to have been treating this like a checklist.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 04:52
|
|
|
Dr. Stab posted:David Cage seems to have been treating this like a checklist. Yet, Disco Elysium deliberately chose to include all of these and made a corker of a story.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 06:47
|
|
|
Offler posted:There was actually a "rule" about this in a fairly influential list of rules to keep in mind when writing detective stories. Most of the rules on this list are about not keeping the crime unsolvable to the reader or using unfair solutions such as a twin that has never been brought up before. The rule reads like this. 11. Without love it cannot be seen. yeah your list of ten is Knox's Decalogue but your item seven above it is from Van Dine's Commandments and in this essay i will discuss their use in th
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 07:03
|
|
|
bunnyofdoom posted:when you hit a block on your story, have someone enter the room with gun in hand This rule has served me very well as a GM for TTRPGs.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 07:12
|
|
|
bunnyofdoom posted:For my mysteries I just subscribe to Chandler's rule
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 07:32
|
|
|
FouRPlaY posted:There have been authors who have written mysteries about other crimes, but they tend not to be as popular. Lots of people have tried to figure out why, but I like James N. Frey's explanation from his book How to Write a Damned Good Mystery: I think it's also important because murder, by definition, leaves a victim who is incapable of being helpful to the investigation. Yeah, rape and assault and kidnapping can be tricky and absolutely can occur in manners in which the surviving victim(s) is unable or unwilling to provide useful information to an investigator, but generally speaking you're going to have to contrive reasons why that is, and as a series goes on, those reasons are obviously going to either become repetitive and/or increasingly bizarre. A murder, unless there are witnesses, has only the physical evidence and whatever tells our hero gleans from suspects. It's a 'purer' sort of mystery where the detective must triumph on wits and/or luck alone because the victim is of no help. Plus, yeah, we all recognize murder as a serious crime and one in which the victim is the victim - many people and societies still consider rape the fault of the victim. Plus we also consider rape more serious/adult. As for other crimes, other than kidnapping - which is often tied in with rape - I would argue that generally speaking rape, murder, and kidnapping are the serious crimes against persons you can reliably build mysteries around - assault feels too low stakes I think, and has the whole 'victim is able to help' issue. Property crime is of course pretty easy to do mysteries around since a lot of the stuff you can say about a murder also will generally apply (property cannot provide a description of who stole it, just as a corpse can't) but yeah, obviously we tend to find a car theft less of a compelling mystery than a murder. Murder is basically in the perfect sweet spot of a lot of narrative things. Every single human recognizes it as a serious crime, by definition, it's one that is always going to be somewhat difficult to sovle because the victim is of no help, and it's one where the person solving it will generally come across as heroic: they are avenging a wrongdoing, but also for someone who is no longer able to do it. They speak for the victim because the victim no longer can. EDIT: I mean, I think it's notable that it's the Law and Order series that dealt exclusively with rape and rape-adjacent crimes that went insane and had increasingly bizarre and baffling plots, rather than any of the police shows dealing with murders or a broader swathe of crimes.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 08:57
|
|
|
bunnyofdoom posted:For my mysteries I just subscribe to Chandler's rule That's actually from a pretty much diametrically opposed set of rules. IIRC people have noted that one of Chandler's famous novels never actually gets around to solving the mystery that kicks the story off and no one seemed to notice.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 09:02
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:That's actually from a pretty much diametrically opposed set of rules. IIRC people have noted that one of Chandler's famous novels never actually gets around to solving the mystery that kicks the story off and no one seemed to notice. Close: The Big Sleep has a side character murdered and we never find out who did it, although there's a bunch of people who could have done done it. My favorite interpretation is that it's L.A. in the fifties, and there's just a lot of murder. They don't all need to be connected,
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 09:26
|
|
|
A Worrying Warlock posted:Close: The Big Sleep has a side character murdered and we never find out who did it, although there's a bunch of people who could have done done it. the novel was written in ‘39, the film was made in ‘46
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 09:35
|
|
|
RoboChrist 9000 posted:I think it's also important because murder, by definition, leaves a victim who is incapable of being helpful to the investigation. Yeah, rape and assault and kidnapping can be tricky and absolutely can occur in manners in which the surviving victim(s) is unable or unwilling to provide useful information to an investigator, but generally speaking you're going to have to contrive reasons why that is, and as a series goes on, those reasons are obviously going to either become repetitive and/or increasingly bizarre. A murder, unless there are witnesses, has only the physical evidence and whatever tells our hero gleans from suspects. It's a 'purer' sort of mystery where the detective must triumph on wits and/or luck alone because the victim is of no help. Plus, yeah, we all recognize murder as a serious crime and one in which the victim is the victim - many people and societies still consider rape the fault of the victim. Plus we also consider rape more serious/adult. As for other crimes, other than kidnapping - which is often tied in with rape - I would argue that generally speaking rape, murder, and kidnapping are the serious crimes against persons you can reliably build mysteries around - assault feels too low stakes I think, and has the whole 'victim is able to help' issue. Property crime is of course pretty easy to do mysteries around since a lot of the stuff you can say about a murder also will generally apply (property cannot provide a description of who stole it, just as a corpse can't) but yeah, obviously we tend to find a car theft less of a compelling mystery than a murder. Thinking about it, the mysteries I've read that aren't murders are missing people, which gets you a similarly unhelpful 'victim'. And in some cases, actively hindering the mystery solver. I was thinking about James Crumley's detective stories specifically, but often it's more about society failing people and trying to live with CPTSD.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 09:38
|
|
|
RoboChrist 9000 posted:Property crime is of course pretty easy to do mysteries around since a lot of the stuff you can say about a murder also will generally apply (property cannot provide a description of who stole it, just as a corpse can't) but yeah, obviously we tend to find a car theft less of a compelling mystery than a murder. It also has the problem of being a crime where people often root for the criminal. Write a story about a thief and half your audience is gonna end up cheering for them.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 09:40
|
|
|
NoiseAnnoys posted:the novel was written in ‘39, the film was made in ‘46  It's still early here, and was definitely asleep when I wrote that. To bring it back on topic, Chandler's Little Sister is one of my favorites and has a fantastic femme fatale character, but it might win an award for worst aged opening ever...
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 09:46
|
|
|
A Worrying Warlock posted:
oh yeah, not a slam it's just wild how old it actually is. the film is one of my all time favorites.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 10:00
|
|
|
Khizan posted:It also has the problem of being a crime where people often root for the criminal. Write a story about a thief and half your audience is gonna end up cheering for them. Yep. Yeah, I'm talking about the more 'mundane' and practical reasons, putting aside the copaganda and other political and moral issues beyond how they involve stakes. Theft is both less in moral severity than most crimes and also one many people empathize with. So yeah. I mean, again, I'm not trying to carry water for the pigs or their enablers. Most of these TV shows are copaganda and are such by the admission of their creators. I just think that the genre likely has its origins in convenience rather than politics.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 10:09
|
|
|
And even then the genre has always varied, the whole premise of Sherlock Holmes is that the cops are stumped by or known to be useless for a case that's not blatantly obvious and it takes a private polymath to point them in the right direction. Ace Attorney also comes to mind as the cops tend to be at best trying to be helpful but incompetent and at the mercy of prosecutors who want an easy verdict, and at worst actively corrupt.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 10:15
|
|
|
InediblePenguin posted:M. NIGHT SHYAMALAN TWIST: it's an isekai where the protagonist got dropped into a detective-themed video game but the protagonist is Josh from Let's Game It Out "Well, I know ONE of these people in the phone booth did it. Blowing up the phone booth will take care of the murderer! It's a shame everyone else will die, but justice will be served."
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 11:28
|
|
|
Offler posted:Actually, reading it more carefully it seems like he was writing it because so many stories in the 20s featured racist cliches, so I guess the rule is there to curb that. My apologies to the long-dead author of the list. Yeah, it's a direct swing at Sax Rohmer for Fu Manchu. A lot of people have subverted that list in the years since. There's an Agatha Christie novel where the detective did it, for example - though of course I shall not tell you which one.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 11:41
|
|
|
RoboChrist 9000 posted:Property crime is of course pretty easy to do mysteries around since a lot of the stuff you can say about a murder also will generally apply (property cannot provide a description of who stole it, just as a corpse can't) but yeah, obviously we tend to find a car theft less of a compelling mystery than a murder.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 11:50
|
|
|
Tiggum posted:Museum robberies, casino heists, and theft of artefacts from the highly secure mansions and vaults of the wealthy are pretty common mystery/procedural plots though. There's often an incidental murder but not always, and the high-profile theft is still usually the inciting incident. We tend to follow the thieves in such narratives though, rather than the detective.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 11:52
|
|
|
Jonathan Creek usually had a murder but a decent number of stories avoided it because or treated it as an almost incidental detail. Part of that was because each crime was essentially a magic trick (or a hard-to-explain set of random events) and making them all involve murder would have been too limiting. Some of the earlier Poirot episodes (being based on Christie's short stories) avoid murder too.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 11:59
|
|
|
The Lone Badger posted:We tend to follow the thieves in such narratives though, rather than the detective. That's a separate genre, but the mystery/procedural genre has plenty of those kinds of crimes. I can't name any specific examples because I watch and read so many of them that I honestly find it difficult to remember which is which or what happened in any of them, but I've definitely seen it come up a fair bit. Not as often as murder, obviously, but it's pretty common. As I said though, there is usually an incidental murder at some point - especially in the cop shows because they want to make it entirely unambiguous that the bad guys deserve to get caught and punished.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 11:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 21:39 |
|
|
Theft mysteries tend to turn up more in children's media, I think. There's less appetite to present children with violence, and children are less likely to look past the "someone did a bad thing" framing to actually look at the moral complexity of stealing a millionaire's painting or whatever.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2024 12:36
|
|
