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DeadlyMuffin posted:A cynical person would say they took out the antisemitic rhetoric because they were taking flak for it, not because they didn't actually believe it in the first place. I meant "cynical in the service of framing every event in Hamas' history in the most flattering possible lens." Of course cynical enemies of Hamas say "they still hate Jews, they just don't pursue those politics anymore because it's not advantageous." In my view a party IS the politics it pursues. People can have secret agendas, parties can't because they have no private monologue. They can have secret tactics but not secret politics.
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May 8, 2024 04:28
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I meant "cynical in the service of framing every event in Hamas' history in the most flattering possible lens." Of course cynical enemies of Hamas say "they still hate Jews, they just don't pursue those politics anymore because it's not advantageous." Just gonna have to disagree with you there, known dog whistles are a thing outside of a party's official policies. Not saying this is true for Hamas, but in general political parties can absolutely have unstated agendas. Like Republicans and minorities.
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May 8, 2024 04:39
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thank god for biden's red line
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May 8, 2024 05:24
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I meant "cynical in the service of framing every event in Hamas' history in the most flattering possible lens." Of course cynical enemies of Hamas say "they still hate Jews, they just don't pursue those politics anymore because it's not advantageous." Parties are just groups of individuals, if an individual can have a secret agenda so can a group. E: not saying Hamas has a secret agenda, just noting this argument for why not makes no sense VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 12:21 on May 8, 2024 |
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May 8, 2024 05:54
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Interesting post, I mostly agree with it. This whole thing about "ancient hatred" is fundamentally stupid. Palestinians who hate Jews - and there absolutely are some - aren't hating Jews because a hadeeth told them to (complete misunderstanding of Islamic attitudes towards religion rather than race aside on your part). They're doing it because the people killing their family, humiliating them at checkpoints, forcing them off their land etc are people who say they are allowed to do this by God as Jews, who are racially superior as Jews, and who are doing this in the name of the Jewish state. Some Palestinians feel towards Jews exactly as some copts feel towards Egyptian Muslims, some sunni Muslims feel towards Syrian Alawis, some Poles felt towards Germans etc. "Ancient hatred" is merely an attempt to divorce the hatred's link to the ruling group's oppression, reducing it to some irrational hatred coming out of nowhere.
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May 8, 2024 06:46
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VitalSigns posted:Parties are just groups of individuals, if an individual can have a secret agenda so can a group. And individuals are just groups of atoms, so if an atom can become ionized, so can an entire individual, right? A political party is composed of people and the infrastructure that links them, that doesn't mean a political party is a big person that itself can do everything a person can. Mitt Romney was wrong, corporations aren't people, my friend The way that political parties maintain themselves over the course of decades, as individual members leave or die, is by maintaining a political platform through which new members are recruited. That's why a political party can't long-term say it's one thing while aspiring to be another, because ultimately it'll be populated by people who just aspire to be in the party as it describes itself. This is what happened to the US Republican party as it went far-right cynically, and then got stuck that way because it was populated by believers. Another way of putting this: even individual human beings struggle with cognitive dissonance between what they say they are and what they think they are - the speech exerts a pressure on the thoughts. Because political parties are constantly updating themselves so the average member of the party has been around for a very brief chunk of its lifespan, they're even less able to maintain a secret understanding like that. "Even though we SAY we're not antisemitic, and we don't pursue antisemitism in our policies, we are just waiting for the day to do it, don't tell anyone" seems like a very very challenging policy to maintain in a political party. Just like its opposite "even though we SAY we're antisemitic, and our policies ARE antisemitic, it is just a temporary condition, we really know the Jews are fine" - that party will become populated and then led by idealogues who don't really know that at all. WarpedLichen posted:Just gonna have to disagree with you there, known dog whistles are a thing outside of a party's official policies. Not saying this is true for Hamas, but in general political parties can absolutely have unstated agendas. Like Republicans and minorities. If you think the Republican party's racism is "unstated", sure, but I don't think so. I don't know the history here very well but I think the transition from directly naming Black people as targets of repression to instead using doghwistles did correspond to a shift in how White Supremacy was/is maintained - not so much the state attacking Black people directly but instead targeting the disparities White supremacy had already produced (wealth, particularly landownership, access to education, exposure to racial bias from individual people, concentration in impoverished places etc). And you could do a whole political-economic analysis of how this made the state more flexible as an agent of class dominance, but it wouldn't be appropriate for the I/P thread. But it would be appropriate to note that I think this is the dream of liberal Zionism: it's no longer necessary for the state to engage in vulgar, explicit racial supremacy, it's enough for the state to operate via dogehistle policy. Hong XiuQuan posted:This whole thing about "ancient hatred" is fundamentally stupid. Palestinians who hate Jews - and there absolutely are some - The way I think about is that Refaat Alareer said most Jews were evil when he was a 33-year-old professor who taught Israeli poetry among other subjects. Most Palestinians, particularly most Gazans, are younger than that, and don't study or teach Israeli poetry. It would be silly to expect them to be more woke to the tactical and moral mistakes of antisemitic thought. As you say, this is what happens under racialized oppression. Alareer changed his mind when he encountered Jews outside the context of vicious racist supremacy and got to see them as ordinary neighbors - most Palestinians have not had that encounter because the State of Israel works to prevent it. quote:aren't hating Jews because a hadeeth told them to (complete misunderstanding of Islamic attitudes towards religion rather than race aside on your part). Hamas obviously thought it was relevant to include in their manifesto, I don't know Palestine better than they did. Then they took it out because they thought it was no longer important - I still don't know Palestine better than they do. One of the advantages of antisemitism as a political organizing principle is that racialized themes can be put into a religious framework and religious themes can be put into a racialized framework. Obviously the authors of that Hadith did not have access to racialized antisemitism, I'd say the earliest thing that can be called antisemitism at all, of the kind that would develop during the Spanish Inquisition. But they created potent religious rhetoric against Jews that could be put into a racialized framework, e.g. pairing it with the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in a manifesto about resisting a racial-supremacist state. Other examples would be anti-Jewish rhetoric in the Christian Bible, which is not at all racialized, but you can go around today and see who's using "Synagogue of Satan." Or Martin Luther whose transition from philosemite to antisemite was entirely characterized by Jewish rejection of Protestantism, becoming a huge figure in the ideology of the Nazi state, which could not have cared less if a Jew converted to Protestantism or not. Obviously Hamas's opposition the State of Israel isn't because the state or its citizens are Jewish but because of the Nakba and every subsequent Israeli horror which has made life in Palestine so horrible. To promote and power this struggle, they used to use rhetoric and ideology that really was both ancient and hateful. So it's possible to do so, but then they stopped doing it and that's why Hamas should be understood as not antisemitic - because they deliberately abandoned those politics as a tactical decision, not because it's impossible for a party to incorporate an ideology older than itself (false) or because it has legitimate material reasons to oppose the state of Israel (true but not incompatible with using antisemitic ideology). Holy poo poo this post is way too long. Sorry I was writing it between sets and trying to respond thoughtfully to three replies. I'll take some time off the thread - free Palestine Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 13:46 on May 8, 2024 |
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May 8, 2024 13:13
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Civilized Fishbot posted:And individuals are just groups of atoms, so if an atom can become ionized, so can an entire individual, right? A political party is composed of people and the infrastructure that links them, that doesn't mean a political party is a big person that itself can do everything a person can. Mitt Romney was wrong, corporations aren't people, my friend Civilized Fishbot posted:
But of course this is wrong too. An organization can have a public face to recruit members and also have private goals that only the inner circle knows. The inner circle can be refreshed by new people from the general membership who are judged to be reliable enough to be told the truth.
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May 8, 2024 13:52
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For what it's worth, I'm inclined to believe Hamas' new charter on the grounds that: - The brutally young age of the average Gazan + constant assassinations by Israel mean that the majority of Hamas will be on the younger side. - with the advent of the internet, young Palestinians in 2024 have been exposed to more antizionist Jews than they would have been in 1987. - Hamas & satellite militias have been keen to praise jewish antizionist movements. - As an Islamist organization they presumably don't take their devotion lightly; Naskh is the concept of abrogating hadiths that contradict, such that the newer hadith supersedes the other when they contradict, but neither are repealed. I can imagine that this concept would apply to Hamas' own documents; Hamas' original charter only refers to "the Jews", the new charter & present statements clarify "the Jews" as "the people of Israel who are killing & robbing us", the expectation would be that you apply this retroactively.
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May 8, 2024 14:27
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Neurolimal posted:I wouldn't say there exists an 'ancient desire' to exterminate Jews, in Palestine or the Middle East. From what I understand, significant antisemitism in the region is fairly recent, for certain reasons, otherwise the persecution has been in the same range of broad proselytizing for Islam, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Hellenistic Paganism, etcetera. There were wars against Judaic civilizations, but they typically fell under quelling revolts (Rome) or seeking to convert those of other religions (Umar). One such instance of the latter resulted in modern Palestinians. This is a discussion I've witnessed unfold on social media after Biden's "ancient desires for elimination" remark. Are there any good and comprehensive books on the history and relationship between islam and judaism or judaism in the Middle East? From my understanding jews were broadly speaking safer and more accepted in muslim societies than christian ones. There also seems to be a push on social media from zionists to shove the responsibility of the Holocaust onto the Palestinians because the Grand Mufti had a meeting with Hitler this one time. The Arab Legion faught on the side of the allies against the nazis anyway but that doesn't seem to count for much.
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May 8, 2024 15:39
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Angry Avocado posted:This is a discussion I've witnessed unfold on social media after Biden's "ancient desires for elimination" remark. Are there any good and comprehensive books on the history and relationship between islam and judaism or judaism in the Middle East? From my understanding jews were broadly speaking safer and more accepted in muslim societies than christian ones. Netanyahu tried this like ten years ago but it got shut down pretty fast. But tofay I can see it actually gainin traction - even though plans for the Holocaust were already underway months before that meeting happened. https://time.com/4084301/hitler-grand-mufi-1941/
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May 8, 2024 16:02
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Neo Rasa posted:Netanyahu tried this like ten years ago but it got shut down pretty fast. But tofay I can see it actually gainin traction - even though plans for the Holocaust were already underway months before that meeting happened. When he tried it originally Germany actually shot him down. Now, I’m sure they’ll go all in on it, given the ongoing project to displace their Holocaust guilt onto Palestinians more specifically and Arabs as a whole.
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May 8, 2024 16:08
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Biden admin appears to be punting their own report on Israel committing warcrimes https://twitter.com/dave_brown24/status/1787928735414419712
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May 8, 2024 16:15
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Perfect picture for this
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May 8, 2024 16:22
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punishedkissinger posted:Biden admin appears to be punting their own report on Israel committing warcrimes So it's safe to assume that they did, in fact, find Israel guilty of breaking US and International law?
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May 8, 2024 16:24
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So it looks like Israel has gotten to the point where they are blowing up refugee tents in Rafah. (NSFW but no gore) https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/s/6MSqDhmiCd I guess that must have been a Hamas tent.
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May 8, 2024 16:25
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Charliegrs posted:So it looks like Israel has gotten to the point where they are blowing up refugee tents in Rafah. (NSFW but no gore) Jesus Christ, those comments. I don't suggest reading them (or honestly watching the video either).
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May 8, 2024 16:41
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Charliegrs posted:So it looks like Israel has gotten to the point where they are blowing up refugee tents in Rafah. (NSFW but no gore) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 8, 2024 17:15
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Guardian live blog posted:The US state department spokesperson, Matthew Miller, has confirmed that the US has paused a shipment of weapons to Israel and is “reviewing others”. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2024/may/08/biden-trump-election-politics-updates We'll see if they hold to this but it seems like there's a small maybe possible actual red line for Biden finally.
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May 8, 2024 19:03
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kronix posted:This is just unfair. Israel isn’t just under some perceived threat that they invented out of thin air, they’re literally constantly under threat of terror attacks. In 2021 at the peak of Covid, Hamas launched 3,600 rockets at Israeli civilians. If you don’t think that having hundreds of Israelis killed or wounded over the last 20 years doesn’t affect the psyche of the average Israeli then it’s not worth debating anymore. fool of sound posted:Let's check Israel's numbers for October 2022 through September 2023, the year leading up to the festival attack: 47 deaths, 146 injured. 193 total victims. So 2 per 100000 Israelis. Those are from 2339 "terrorist attacks". The overwhelming majority of "attacks" that Israel claims are victimless. They're vandalism and other non-violent acts of protest. Civilized Fishbot posted:That's about twice as much as Americans who died in 9/11 (a little under 3000 out of a little under 300 million) and most of us remember how much that attack warped Americans culture and enflamed horribly racist, genocidal rhetoric. Civilized Fishbot posted:Maybe a more foolproof way to describe it is this: far fewer civilians died on Oct 7 2023 than September 11 2001. But the average 2024-Isrseli is much more likely to know someone who died on Oct 7 than your average 2002-American is to know someone who died on Sep 11. Greater proximity (in geography, cultural identity, social networks etc) to the victims of a terrorist attack makes the attack more terrorizing, and makes it easier for demagogues to exploit that terror. The death toll of 10/7 isn't a worthwhile data point because this is a conversation about the development of violent Zionism over the years and decades leading up to it, in response to terrorist attacks on Israel. In 2022, 29 Israelis (not counting 3 foreigners) were killed by terrorist attacks. (This was the body count of over 2,200 "attacks." For context, 204 Palestinians were killed by the IDF and Israeli settlers that year, about 2/3 in the West Bank and 1/3 in Gaza.) Israel estimates their 2022 population at 9,656,000, so that's about 1 out of every 333,000 Israelis killed by terrorism. For comparison, 9/11 killed 1 out of every 95,892 Americans in 2001. CF was taking the total number of Israeli injuries and deaths in 2022, as reported by Israel, and comparing them to the death toll of 9/11. My point is, it's not like Israeli was experiencing anything comparable to 9/11 year after year. (This is also after setting aside any distinction between the IDF and civilians.) If the US had experienced an annual death toll from terrorism relative to Israel in 2022, it would be 998 victims. For comparison, mass shootings killed 762 Americans in 2022 and COVID contributed to the deaths of almost 245,000 an average of 671 per day. Anyway. Based on these numbers as well as a lot of other reasons, I don't buy kronix's argument that Israel has a violent, genocidal culture because each and every Israeli lives with the constant, justified fear of being the victim of a terrorist attack. I'm sure it adds fuel to the fire, but I don't see it as the primary reason that a colonial settler state project is racist and genocidal. You can, for example, look at other nations considered to be severely impacted by terrorism over the past 10 or 20 years, and you won't find many straight-across comparisons to Israel: an ethnostate that enshrines racial supremacism, maintains a captive population, where gangs commit acts of racial violence with the aid and protection of the police.
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May 8, 2024 19:25
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punishedkissinger posted:Biden admin appears to be punting their own report on Israel committing warcrimes Article says that they're telling Congress it's the literal meaning of indefinitely ("I tried to get my homework done and need an extension, it'll being soon") and not the figurative ("lol get hosed"). We'll see whether that's the case. Randalor posted:So it's safe to assume that they did, in fact, find Israel guilty of breaking US and International law? That's the most likely tea leafy explanation imo: that there's a sizable faction with citations that can't be easily ignored (like, for example, the dozens of incidents discussed in this thread) saying they need to tell Congress it's war crimes all the way down.
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May 8, 2024 19:30
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punishedkissinger posted:Biden admin appears to be punting their own report on Israel committing warcrimes Who could have ever seen this coming Goatse James Bond posted:Article says that they're telling Congress it's the literal meaning of indefinitely ("I tried to get my homework done and need an extension, it'll being soon") and not the figurative ("lol get hosed"). We'll see whether that's the case. it's significant that it is being delayed because that lets the US continue to provide arms in the interim. the designation is significant because under US law you can't provide weapons to an entity using them for war crimes*. so it is more than just being delayed because the homework isn't done, the delay is happening at a time where Israel is launching a new offensive and does not want supplies to suddenly stop *like many US laws, good luck at getting this effectively applied when most institutional inertia goes against applying it. ironically it may actually ended up applied to Israel only because they're not even really bothering to pretend that they aren't just wholesale murdering civilians at an exceptionally high rate Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 21:36 on May 8, 2024 |
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May 8, 2024 21:28
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Goatse James Bond posted:Article says that they're telling Congress it's the literal meaning of indefinitely ("I tried to get my homework done and need an extension, it'll being soon") and not the figurative ("lol get hosed"). We'll see whether that's the case. Isn't the official report on Israel having non-treaty nuclear weapons also presently stuck in a "we're currently doing research (lol not really) on the topic, results pending" status so it never has to address the obvious?
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May 8, 2024 21:43
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Dunno if this is old news ITT but I think it makes it pretty plain https://x.com/ZevShalev/status/1787869320384577760
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May 9, 2024 00:01
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https://x.com/axios/status/1788339370837127315 This the first time any American admin has ceased supplying Israel and said it publicly.
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May 9, 2024 00:10
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Gucci Loafers posted:https://x.com/axios/status/1788339370837127315 I thought Reagan cut back military aid (F-16s?) to get Israel to get out of Lebanon.
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May 9, 2024 00:28
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Our Genocider In-Chief Has already walked it back to attacking Rafah is okay, just not "the population centers" https://twitter.com/YonahLieberman/status/1788339150610907570
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May 9, 2024 00:32
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Gucci Loafers posted:https://x.com/axios/status/1788339370837127315 https://twitter.com/OsitaNwanevu/status/1788338620195017001 It only took over 40,000 (let’s be honest, when accounting for disease and famine well over 100,000) dead Palestinians to get to this tiny first step. Neo Rasa posted:Our Genocider In-Chief Has already walked it back to attacking Rafah is okay, just not "the population centers" Welp, I guess things have to keep getting a bit worse first. Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 00:38 on May 9, 2024 |
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May 9, 2024 00:35
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what step, nothing has actually been done
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May 9, 2024 00:38
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I thought Reagan cut back military aid (F-16s?) to get Israel to get out of Lebanon. Good point.
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May 9, 2024 00:39
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Those tweets are referencing different clips from the exact same interview. The whole thing will be airing in a bit and an idea of the actual policy actions being taken will probably be clearer seeing the whole thing.
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May 9, 2024 00:42
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I thought Reagan cut back military aid (F-16s?) to get Israel to get out of Lebanon. Also George HW Bush threatened to stop loans to Israel if it went towards settlements, which worked.
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May 9, 2024 00:42
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Randalor posted:So it's safe to assume that they did, in fact, find Israel guilty of breaking US and International law? You can find evidence of Israel commiting war crimes on literally every social media site online, and much of that evidence has been posted willingly by members of the Israeli army, so yes. Yes they found that. Remember that time Israeli soldiers dressed up as doctors to infiltrate a hospital in order to execute a man who was already captured and also paralyzed from the waist down without a trial? That's just one example of the kind of things I'm talking about.
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May 9, 2024 00:43
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Herstory Begins Now posted:what step, nothing has actually been done Austen confirmed earlier that they've delayed a shipment already. I already posted a quote earlier, here's another article about it: https://apnews.com/article/israel-weapons-shipment-us-eed365ebef0477ba74bf9848cacae4f4 Article posted:Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin earlier Wednesday confirmed the weapons delay, telling the Senate Appropriations subcommittee on defense that the U.S. paused “one shipment of high payload munitions.” That said it's shameful it took this long to even do this.
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May 9, 2024 01:01
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https://twitter.com/9NewsAdel/status/1788404179033338290 Pro-Palestine protesters at Adelaide University are now also being attacked by having fireworks thrown at their encampments to the sound of crickets from our elected officials.
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May 9, 2024 10:20
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Testekill posted:https://twitter.com/9NewsAdel/status/1788404179033338290 Yeah things are getting nastier on the Australian campuses. I took some food to the kids camping at Monash, and there were people draped in Israeli flags standing everywhere. It's remarkable to me that the polarisation has reached the point that people are happy to walk around wearing the flag of a country engaged in that level of state sponsored murder.
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May 9, 2024 10:49
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Nucleic Acids posted:It only took over 40,000 (let’s be honest, when accounting for disease and famine well over 100,000) dead Palestinians to get to this tiny first step. Don't get your hopes up. Remember that over the past 70 or so years, the United States has sent well over 300 billion USD to the State of Israel. I hate to say it, but this may all just be a ruse aiming to appease the American public outraged at their nation's blatant support for a genocidal ethnostate. I suppose the Biden administration could also have orchestrated this PR stunt to appeal to a college-age demographic and secure more votes for the upcoming election, but that seems unlikely. No matter the motivation, it goes without saying that this delay in weapons and aid will have significant implications for liberating Palestine if Biden is sincere in this statement. And that's a big if since, as reinforced by the US-backed coups in Guatemala, Chile, and Iran, America has little to no regard for the morality of her allies as long as they readily defend and buy resources from her. Thus, unless Israel suddenly refuses to suck America's cock dry, the U.S. will feel no remorse for supplying the Apartheid state with an endless supply of arms and explosives that will inevitably take countless lives and decimate an abundance of homes in Gaza. And, as disappointing as it may seem, the prospect of a sudden change in heart without ulterior motives seems quite farfetched given the current state of American foreign policy. Waddle Bourgeoidee fucked around with this message at 15:36 on May 9, 2024 |
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May 9, 2024 15:34
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I think raising the blood pressure of people like this is good, even if it's not a huge material shift in policy. https://twitter.com/itamarbengvir/status/1788458123436433783
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May 9, 2024 15:56
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punishedkissinger posted:I think raising the blood pressure of people like this is good, even if it's not a huge material shift in policy.  Similarly, this was posted in the current events thread.
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May 9, 2024 16:26
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punishedkissinger posted:I think raising the blood pressure of people like this is good, even if it's not a huge material shift in policy. It's a start. Hope to see many more tweets like this from Ben-Gvir in the future.
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May 9, 2024 16:27
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ap reporting the first ship carrying aid intended for new pier left cyprus today. The bit that caught my eye was unnamed cypriot officials reiterating that cyprus conducted a screening of cargo with israeli oversight and "no other inspection is forseen...". not leaving much cover for israeli bottlenecks (not that they need it)
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May 9, 2024 22:08
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