Israel/Palestine

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine

(Thread IKs: Main Paineframe, Irony Be My Shield, punishedkissinger)

Your Brain on Hugs: Aug 20, 2006

It's mainly just semantics, but there's a tendency for Biden voters to try and minimize or equivocate his role in supporting the genocide, and act like he's in some way not fully on board with what's going on. Like, I would respect someone saying "this man is a genocidal monster and terrible human being who belongs in the Hague, but I'm still voting for him because the only other choice I have is worse".

Not saying anyone here is doing this right now, but most people don't like thinking that way, as it can bring thoughts like 'maybe the entire political system is rotten to the core and my country is a net evil in the world', so they find anything to cling to to avoid having to face that reality. Personally I find that kind of delusion to make oneself feel better quite distasteful when it results in trying to minimise a genocide.

# ? May 11, 2024 00:30

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 1, 2024 12:14

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

Pier update:

The Sagamore is near Ashdod on AIS. I don�t see anything else having moved or turned AIS back on. From publicly available information JLOTS needs sea state 2 or lower and 2 is apparently a bit hairy.

Current wave forecasting for Ashdod which should be similar to Gaza:

https://www.tide-forecast.com/locations/Ashdod/forecasts/latest

Looks like Sea state 2-3+ until Thursday or Friday next week. They have tables for different parts of the world that show the percentages sea states are good for JLOTS. Most areas sea state 1 is about 50% of the time and if they operate in two that�s another 15%.

But thats�s for the whole year and weather is seasonal. Earlier I was upset they didn�t start sooner and assumed it was because they didn�t want to cross with those little army boats during winter in the Atlantic. It was actually probably this. They needed to get to late spring for the sea state to be reliable

# ? May 11, 2024 00:49

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

Goatse James Bond posted:

Who's denying his involvement in war crimes? I'm really not sure who you're being mad at here.

Wouldn't be surprised if the delay was internal fights about how to create this dumb wiggle room. I'd like it if it was about *whether* to create the wiggle room but there's no evidence on the deliberations yet.

there was a struggle between basically career people who wanted the war crimes designation and political appointees pushing against it so the weapons can keep flowing. guess who won

Axios had an article going into some of the back and forth
https://www.axios.com/2024/05/10/israel-gaza-us-weapons-congress-report-blinken

I wouldn't ever expect the US to conclude that Israel is using American weapons for war crimes because that would create a deeply inconvenient situation with potential legal and political consequences

The report is just a complete farce substantively because it's declaring that Israel is doing little/less to prevent the flow of [american] aid and while the legal concern that state is addressing here is that israel preventing american aid renders it an illegal recipient of american weapons, in practice you have Israel cutting off the flow of all (non-american) aid while the report makes it sound like golly they're really trying.

https://x.com/UNReliefChief/status/1788605114179072192

US continues to run interference for Israel is the tldr

punishedkissinger posted:

I don't think they need a large stockpile of 2,000lb bombs to attack a concentration camp personally. Rifles and bayonets would probably be sufficient.

Starvation is even more effective.

Hong XiuQuan posted:

You'll have to connect the dots but basically:

1) Hamas has been using materials from unexploded ordnance
2) Something like >10% of Israel's ordnance doesn't explode
3) Israel has been using Vietnam-era stockpiles

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/28/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-weapons-rockets.html <-- has all claims but not spelled out in "Israel is desperate for munitions to the extent that it's using old stuff that doesn't explode and therefore lets Hamas get material" sense.

that's an unremarkable dud rate and doesn't really reflect the age of equipment they're using and I wouldn't draw conclusions from it and especially wouldn't read a big conjectured narrative into it. generally they fire so much ordnance into gaza that any failure rate will lead to a large amount of harvestable ordnance. That's a constant of basically every conflict. Palestinians have been harvesting israeli uxo for a lot longer than this round of the conflict, too.

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 01:34 on May 11, 2024

# ? May 11, 2024 01:21

National Parks: Apr 6, 2016

Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

The weapon delivery kerfuffle just seems like misdirection to me. The real headline should be that for three days no humanitarian aid of any kind has entered Gaza. They don't need bombs if they can simply strangle the entire population.

As they keep working on the pier I'm beginning to wonder if its an excuse to close all land routes into Gaza, while throttling the trickle of aid to a single entry point.

# ? May 11, 2024 01:41

Lovely Joe Stalin: Jun 12, 2007; Our Lovely Wang

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it were grimmer than that, and the plan, at least from Israel's side, is that they'll close it down to that one route of access, and then simply prevent distribution after delivery. Who's going to force the IDF to let the food move out from the landing ground? Certainly not the US troops manning the pier.

# ? May 11, 2024 01:57

Your Brain on Hugs: Aug 20, 2006

Another thing I haven't seen mentioned is that gazans are calling for airdropped aid to stop, it's killed 21 people so far.

# ? May 11, 2024 02:01

Svaha: Oct 4, 2005

Small Palestinian flags for some...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj_yxpODJS0
...Tiny portable paper shredders for others.

One of the most petulant displays I've ever seen in the UN, and that's a pretty high bar.

# ? May 11, 2024 04:24

Yawgmoft: Nov 15, 2004

There is something amazing about Israel saying the rest of the UN is shredding the Charter as they literally shred the Charter in front of everyone.

# ? May 11, 2024 04:32

hooman: Oct 11, 2007; This guy seems legit.; Fun Shoe

Svaha posted:

Small Palestinian flags for some...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj_yxpODJS0
...Tiny portable paper shredders for others.

One of the most petulant displays I've ever seen in the UN, and that's a pretty high bar.

"You have opened up the united nations to modern day nazis..." says Israeli representative, before shredding united nations charter, without a single hint of irony.

# ? May 11, 2024 05:17

kiminewt: Feb 1, 2022

Who the gently caress is the PR person writing the stunts they do in the UN and who do they think they're impressing? I can only imagine it's aimed at Israeli citizens because it looks pathetic to anyone else.

# ? May 11, 2024 09:28

Testekill: Nov 1, 2012; I demand to be taken seriously

kiminewt posted:

Who the gently caress is the PR person writing the stunts they do in the UN and who do they think they're impressing? I can only imagine it's aimed at Israeli citizens because it looks pathetic to anyone else.

At this point Israeli's official stance must be that the UN is compromised by Hamas and thus should be spoken down to and denigrated at all times. This is just red meat for the right wing population in Israel because it's entirely just thumbing their nose at every other country.

# ? May 11, 2024 10:02

Ograbme: Jul 26, 2003; D--n it, how he nicks 'em

Yawgmoft posted:

There is something amazing about Israel saying the rest of the UN is shredding the Charter as they literally shred the Charter in front of everyone.

Shredding and Crying

# ? May 11, 2024 11:38

KillHour: Oct 28, 2007

Testekill posted:

At this point Israeli's official stance must be that the UN is compromised by Hamas and thus should be spoken down to and denigrated at all times. This is just red meat for the right wing population in Israel because it's entirely just thumbing their nose at every other country.

Israel is the Donald Trump of countries.

# ? May 11, 2024 14:03

Scam Likely: Feb 19, 2021

They're really min-maxing the "lose friends and make terrorists" speedrun WR.

# ? May 11, 2024 14:24

Szarrukin: Sep 29, 2021

Scam Likely posted:

They're really min-maxing the "lose friends and make terrorists" speedrun WR.

They need exactly one friend, everyone else is just "look, everyone is antisemitic, we must defend ourselves!" propaganda fuel.

# ? May 11, 2024 16:03

Son of Thunderbeast: Sep 21, 2002

Szarrukin posted:

They need exactly one friend, everyone else is just "look, everyone is antisemitic, we must defend ourselves!" propaganda fuel.

In addition, the friend is also "everyone is antisemitic" propaganda fuel.

# ? May 11, 2024 16:17

guidoanselmi: Feb 6, 2008; I thought my ideas were so clear. I wanted to make an honest post. No lies whatsoever.

https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1788910055238037741

quote:

Strapped down, blindfolded, held in diapers: Israeli whistleblowers detail abuse of Palestinians in shadowy detention center

Sde Teiman, Israel CNN � normal
At a military base that now doubles as a detention center in Israel�s Negev desert, an Israeli working at the facility snapped two photographs of a scene that he says continues to haunt him.

Rows of men in gray tracksuits are seen sitting on paper-thin mattresses, ringfenced by barbed wire. All appear blindfolded, their heads hanging heavy under the glare of floodlights.

A putrid stench filled the air and the room hummed with the men�s murmurs, the Israeli who was at the facility told CNN. Forbidden from speaking to each other, the detainees mumbled to themselves.

�We were told they were not allowed to move. They should sit upright. They�re not allowed to talk. Not allowed to peek under their blindfold.�

Guards were instructed �to scream uskot� � shut up in Arabic � and told to �pick people out that were problematic and punish them,� the source added.

CNN spoke to three Israeli whistleblowers who worked at the Sde Teiman desert camp, which holds Palestinians detained during Israel�s invasion of Gaza. All spoke out at risk of legal repercussions and reprisals from groups supportive of Israel�s hardline policies in Gaza.

They paint a picture of a facility where doctors sometimes amputated prisoners� limbs due to injuries sustained from constant handcuffing; of medical procedures sometimes performed by underqualified medics earning it a reputation for being �a paradise for interns�; and where the air is filled with the smell of neglected wounds left to rot.

We were told they were not allowed to move. They should sit upright. They�re not allowed to talk. Not allowed to peek under their blindfold.

An Israeli whistleblower recounting his experience at Sde Teiman

According to the accounts, the facility some 18 miles from the Gaza frontier is split into two parts: enclosures where around 70 Palestinian detainees from Gaza are placed under extreme physical restraint, and a field hospital where wounded detainees are strapped to their beds, wearing diapers and fed through straws.

�They stripped them down of anything that resembles human beings,� said one whistleblower, who worked as a medic at the facility�s field hospital.

�(The beatings) were not done to gather intelligence. They were done out of revenge,� said another whistleblower. �It was punishment for what they (the Palestinians) did on October 7 and punishment for behavior in the camp.�

Responding to CNN�s request for comment on all the allegations made in this report, the Israeli military, known as the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), said in a statement: �The IDF ensures proper conduct towards the detainees in custody. Any allegation of misconduct by IDF soldiers is examined and dealt with accordingly. In appropriate cases, MPCID (Military Police Criminal Investigation�s Division) investigations are opened when there is suspicion of misconduct justifying such action.�

�Detainees are handcuffed based on their risk level and health status. Incidents of unlawful handcuffing are not known to the authorities.�

The IDF did not directly deny accounts of people being stripped of their clothing or held in diapers. Instead, the Israeli military said that the detainees are given back their clothing once the IDF has determined that they pose no security risk.

Reports of abuse at Sde Teiman have already surfaced in Israeli and Arab media after an outcry from Israeli and Palestinian rights groups over conditions there. But this rare testimony from Israelis working at the facility sheds further light on Israel�s conduct as it wages war in Gaza, with fresh allegations of mistreatment. It also casts more doubt on the Israeli government�s repeated assertions that it acts in accordance with accepted international practices and law.

CNN has requested permission from the Israeli military to access the Sde Teiman base. Last month, a CNN team covered a small protest outside its main gate staged by Israeli activists demanding the closure of the facility. Israeli security forces questioned the team for around 30 minutes there, demanding to see the footage taken by CNN�s photojournalist. Israel often subjects reporters, even foreign journalists, to military censorship on security issues.

Detained in the desert

The Israeli military has acknowledged partially converting three different military facilities into detention camps for Palestinian detainees from Gaza since the Hamas-led October 7 attack on Israel, in which Israeli authorities say about 1,200 were killed and over 250 were abducted, and the subsequent Israeli offensive in Gaza, killing nearly 35,000 people according to the strip�s health ministry. These facilities are Sde Teiman in the Negev desert, as well as Anatot and Ofer military bases in the occupied West Bank.

The camps are part of the infrastructure of Israel�s Unlawful Combatants Law, an amended legislation passed by the Knesset last December that expanded the military�s authority to detain suspected militants.

The law permits the military to detain people for 45 days without an arrest warrant, after which they must be transferred to Israel�s formal prison system (IPS), where over 9,000 Palestinians are being held in conditions that rights groups say have drastically deteriorated since October 7. Two Palestinian prisoners associations said last week that 18 Palestinians � including leading Gaza surgeon Dr. Adnan al-Bursh � had died in Israeli custody over the course of the war.

The military detention camps � where the number of inmates is unknown � serve as a filtration point during the arrest period mandated by the Unlawful Combatants Law. After their detention in the camps, those with suspected Hamas links are transferred to the IPS, while those whose militant ties have been ruled out are released back to Gaza.

CNN interviewed over a dozen former Gazan detainees who appeared to have been released from those camps. They said they could not determine where they were held because they were blindfolded through most of their detention and cut off from the outside world. But the details of their accounts tally with those of the whistleblowers.

Hear from former detainees held inside Sde Teiman.

�We looked forward to the night so we could sleep. Then we looked forward to the morning in hopes that our situation might change,� said Dr. Mohammed al-Ran, recalling his detainment at a military facility where he said he endured desert temperatures, swinging from the heat of the day to the chill of night. CNN interviewed him outside Gaza last month.

Al-Ran, a Palestinian who holds Bosnian citizenship, headed the surgical unit at northern Gaza�s Indonesian hospital, one of the first to be shut down and raided as Israel carried out its aerial, ground and naval offensive.

He was arrested on December 18, he said, outside Gaza City�s Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital, where he had been working for three days after fleeing his hospital in the heavily bombarded north.

He was stripped down to his underwear, blindfolded and his wrists tied, then dumped in the back of a truck where, he said, the near-naked detainees were piled on top of one another as they were shuttled to a detention camp in the middle of the desert.

The details in his account are consistent with those of dozens of others collected by CNN recounting the conditions of arrest in Gaza. His account is also supported by numerous images depicting mass arrests published on social media profiles belonging to Israeli soldiers. Many of those images show captive Gazans, their wrists or ankles tied by cables, in their underwear and blindfolded.

Al-Ran was held in a military detention center for 44 days, he told CNN. �Our days were filled with prayer, tears, and supplication. This eased our agony,� said al-Ran.

�We cried and cried and cried. We cried for ourselves, cried for our nation, cried for our community, cried for our loved ones. We cried about everything that crossed our minds.�

A week into his imprisonment, the detention camp�s authorities ordered him to act as an intermediary between the guards and the prisoners, a role known as Shawish, �supervisor,� in vernacular Arabic.

According to the Israeli whistleblowers, a Shawish is normally a prisoner who has been cleared of suspected links to Hamas after interrogation.

The Israeli military denied holding detainees unnecessarily, or using them for translation purposes. �If there is no reason for continued detention, the detainees are released back to Gaza,� they said in a statement.

Our days were filled with prayer, tears, and supplication. This eased our agony.

Former detainee Dr. Mohammed al-Ran

However, whistleblower and detainee accounts � particularly pertaining to Shawish � cast doubt on the IDF�s depiction of its clearing process. Al-Ran says that he served as Shawish for several weeks after he was cleared of Hamas links. Whistleblowers also said that the absolved Shawish served as intermediaries for some time.

They are typically proficient in Hebrew, according to the eyewitnesses, enabling them to communicate the guards� orders to the rest of the prisoners in Arabic.

For that, al-Ran said he was given a special privilege: his blindfold was removed. He said this was another kind of hell.

�Part of my torture was being able to see how people were being tortured,� he said. �At first you couldn�t see. You couldn�t see the torture, the vengeance, the oppression.

�When they removed my blindfold, I could see the extent of the humiliation and abasement � I could see the extent to which they saw us not as human beings but as animals.�

Al-Ran�s account of the forms of punishment he saw were corroborated by the whistleblowers who spoke with CNN. A prisoner who committed an offense such as speaking to another would be ordered to raise his arms above his head for up to an hour. The prisoner�s hands would sometimes be zip-tied to a fence to ensure that he did not come out of the stress position.

For those who repeatedly breached the prohibition on speaking and moving, the punishment became more severe. Israeli guards would sometimes take a prisoner to an area outside the enclosure and beat him aggressively, according to two whistleblowers and al-Ran. A whistleblower who worked as a guard said he saw a man emerge from a beating with his teeth, and some bones, apparently broken.

When they removed my blindfold, I could see the extent of the humiliation and abasement � I could see the extent to which they saw us not as human beings but as animals.

Former detainee Dr. Mohammed Al-Ran

That whistleblower and al-Ran also described a routine search when the guards would unleash large dogs on sleeping detainees, lobbing a sound grenade at the enclosure as troops barged in. Al-Ran called this �the nightly torture.�

�While we were cabled, they unleashed the dogs that would move between us, and trample over us,� said al-Ran. �You�d be lying on your belly, your face pressed against the ground. You can�t move, and they�re moving above you.�

The same whistleblower recounted the search in the same harrowing detail. �It was a special unit of the military police that did the so-called search,� said the source. �But really it was an excuse to hit them. It was a terrifying situation.�

�There was a lot of screaming and dogs barking.�

Strapped to beds in a field hospital

Whistleblower accounts portrayed a different kind of horror at the Sde Teiman field hospital.

�What I felt when I was dealing with those patients is an idea of total vulnerability,� said one medic who worked at Sde Teiman.

�If you imagine yourself being unable to move, being unable to see what�s going on, and being completely naked, that leaves you completely exposed,� the source said. �I think that�s something that borders on, if not crosses to, psychological torture.�

Another whistleblower said he was ordered to perform medical procedures on the Palestinian detainees for which he was not qualified.

�I was asked to learn how to do things on the patients, performing minor medical procedures that are totally outside my expertise,� he said, adding that this was frequently done without anesthesia.

�If they complained about pain, they would be given paracetamol,� he said, using another name for acetaminophen.

�Just being there felt like being complicit in abuse.�

See the model CNN has recreated based on eyewitness accounts showing inside Sde Teiman

The same whistleblower also said he witnessed an amputation performed on a man who had sustained injuries caused by the constant zip-tying of his wrists. The account tallied with details of a letter authored by a doctor working at Sde Teiman published by Ha�aretz in April.

�From the first days of the medical facility�s operation until today, I have faced serious ethical dilemmas,� said the letter addressed to Israel�s attorney general, and its health and defense ministries, according to Ha�aretz. �More than that, I am writing (this letter) to warn you that the facilities� operations do not comply with a single section among those dealing with health in the Incarceration of Unlawful Combatants Law.�

An IDF spokesperson denied the allegations reported by Ha�aretz in a written statement to CNN at the time, saying that medical procedures were conducted with �extreme care� and in accordance with Israeli and international law.

The spokesperson added that the handcuffing of the detainees was done in �accordance with procedures, their health condition and the level of danger posed by them,� and that any allegation of violence would be examined.

They stripped them down of anything that resembles human beings.

An Israeli whistleblower recalling his experience at Sde Teiman

Whistleblowers also said that medical team were told to refrain from signing medical documents, corroborating previous reporting by rights group Physicians for Human Rights in Israel (PHRI).

The PHRI report released in April warned of �a serious concern that anonymity is employed to prevent the possibility of investigations or complaints regarding breaches of medical ethics and professionalism.�

�You don�t sign anything, and there is no verification of authority,� said the same whistleblower who said he lacked the appropriate training for the treatment he was asked to administer. �It is a paradise for interns because it�s like you do whatever you want.�

CNN also requested comment from the Israeli health ministry on the allegations in this report. The ministry referred CNN back to the IDF.

Concealed from the outside world

Sde Teiman and other military detention camps have been shrouded in secrecy since their inception. Israel has repeatedly refused requests to disclose the number of detainees held at the facilities, or to reveal the whereabouts of Gazan prisoners.

Last Wednesday, the Israeli Supreme Court held a hearing in response to a petition brought forward by Israeli rights group, HaMoked, to reveal the location of a Palestinian X-Ray technician detained from Nasser Hospital in southern Gaza in February. It was the first court session of its kind since October 7.

Israel�s highest court had previously rejected writs of habeas corpus filed on behalf of dozens of Palestinians from Gaza held in unknown locations.

The disappearances �allows for the atrocities that we�ve been hearing about to happen,� said Tal Steiner, an Israeli human rights lawyer and executive director of the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel.

�People completely disconnected from the outside world are the most vulnerable to torture and mistreatment,� Steiner said in an interview with CNN.

Since October 7, more than 100 structures, including large tents and hangars, appeared within these areas of the Sde Teiman desert camp. Planet Labs PBC

Satellite images provide further insight into activities at Sde Teiman, revealing that in the months since the start of the Israel-Hamas war on October 7, more than 100 new structures, including large tents and hangars, have been built at the desert camp. A comparison of aerial photographs from September 10, 2023 and March 1 this year also showed a significant increase in the number of vehicles at the facility, indicating an uptick in activity. Satellite imagery from two dates in early December showed construction work in progress.

CNN also geolocated the two leaked photographs showing the enclosure holding the group of blindfolded men in gray tracksuits. The pattern of panels seen on the roof matched those of a large hangar visible in satellite imagery. The structure, which resembles an animal pen, is located in the central area of the Sde Teiman compound. It is an older structure seen among new buildings which have appeared since the war began.

CNN reviewed satellite images from two other military detention camps � Ofer and Anatot bases in the occupied West Bank � and did not detect expansion in the grounds since October 7. Several rights groups and legal experts say they believe that Sde Teiman, which is the nearest to Gaza, likely hosts the largest number of detainees of the three military detention camps.

�I was there for 23 days. Twenty-three days that felt like 100 years,� said 27-year-old Ibrahim Yassine on the day of his release from a military detention camp.

He was lying in a crowded room with over a dozen newly freed men � they were still in the grey tracksuit prison uniforms. Some had deep flesh wounds from where the handcuffs had been removed.

�We were handcuffed and blindfolded,� said another man, 43-year-old Sufyan Abu Salah. �Today is the first day I can see.�

Several had a glassy look in their eyes and were seemingly emaciated. One elderly man breathed through an oxygen machine as he lay on a stretcher. Outside the hospital, two freed men from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society embraced their colleagues.

For Dr. Al-Ran, his reunion with his friends was anything but joyful. The experience, he said, rendered him mute for a month as he battled an �emotional deadness.�

�It was very painful. When I was released, people expected me to miss them, to embrace them. But there was a gap,� said al-Ran. �The people who were with me at the detention facility became my family. Those friendships were the only things that belonged to us.�

Just before his release, a fellow prisoner had called out to him, his voice barely rising above a whisper, al-Ran said. He asked the doctor to find his wife and kids in Gaza. �He asked me to tell them that it is better for them to be martyrs,� said al-Ran. �It is better for them to die than to be captured and held here.�

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html

# ? May 11, 2024 18:20

Failed Imagineer: Sep 22, 2018

Jesus Christ. March, boycott, donate to MSF and other charities on the ground. If you do nothing, expect future generations to despise your cowardice

# ? May 11, 2024 18:29

apatheticman: May 13, 2003; Wedge Regret

kiminewt posted:

Who the gently caress is the PR person writing the stunts they do in the UN and who do they think they're impressing? I can only imagine it's aimed at Israeli citizens because it looks pathetic to anyone else.

Yeah its aimed at them and no one else.

# ? May 11, 2024 18:33

Kith: Sep 17, 2009; You never learn anything
by doing it right.

guidoanselmi posted:

https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1788910055238037741

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html

Never again at work.

# ? May 11, 2024 19:16

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

They recreated the loving kapo system

# ? May 11, 2024 19:46

Szarrukin: Sep 29, 2021

"The IDF did not directly deny accounts of people being stripped of their clothing or held in diapers. Instead, the Israeli military said that the detainees are given back their clothing once the IDF has determined that they pose no security risk."

The most moral army in the world.

# ? May 11, 2024 20:52

daft: Oct 16, 2012

glad the pier is there to feed the concentration camp victims :thumbsup:

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? May 12, 2024 03:39

HazCat: May 4, 2009

daft posted:

glad the pier is there to ~~feed~~ support the concentration camp ~~victims~~ guards

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? May 12, 2024 03:51

ZShakespeare: Jul 20, 2003; The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose!

kiminewt posted:

Who the gently caress is the PR person writing the stunts they do in the UN and who do they think they're impressing? I can only imagine it's aimed at Israeli citizens because it looks pathetic to anyone else.

They need public opinion on their side in the one single country on the face of the earth without whose unconditional support they simply could not operate an ethno-nationalist apartheid state.

# ? May 12, 2024 04:28

Svaha: Oct 4, 2005

The Israeli paper shredder diatribe was delivered in exactly the same cringy prop-heavy style that makes regular appearances in the American house/senate. That's what they are emulating. Not to mention the American approach to the war on terror, if the above article is any indication.

The only real difference seems to be that they are somehow even worse at both public relations and asymmetrical warfare than the U.S. was.

Svaha fucked around with this message at 18:08 on May 12, 2024

# ? May 12, 2024 18:04

Quantum Cat: May 6, 2007; Why am I in a BOX?WFT?!

Svaha posted:

...they are somehow even worse at both public relations and asymmetrical warfare than the U.S. was.

I'm p.zooted rn so I can't recall who I'm about to paragurgitate at you, but the tl;dr of it goes like this:

Israel does not have infantry doctrine.

And in dialogue with this, the IDF's sharpest minds, much like the most devout communist being the apocryphal illiterate grandpa who's mind remained unsullied by capitalist propaganda, remain for reasons of ideology and hubris, unsullied by the developments in asymmetrical warfare since the late 1940's, crafting strategy and tactics alike accordingly.

# ? May 12, 2024 22:01

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Quantum Cat posted:

I'm p.zooted rn so I can't recall who I'm about to paragurgitate at you, but the tl;dr of it goes like this:

Israel does not have infantry doctrine.

And in dialogue with this, the IDF's sharpest minds, much like the most devout communist being the apocryphal illiterate grandpa who's mind remained unsullied by capitalist propaganda, remain for reasons of ideology and hubris, unsullied by the developments in asymmetrical warfare since the late 1940's, crafting strategy and tactics alike accordingly.

Like, as much as people complain about "hearts and minds", it's at least more successful placating an oppressed population than the tactics of collective punishment and swamp-draining that the Israelis seemed to have learned from the Nazis (and even then, it was likely not direct experiences, since Holocaust survivors and resistance folks are probably long dead, let alone in military advising role).

# ? May 12, 2024 22:11

3rdEyeDeuteranopia: Sep 12, 2007

Svaha posted:

The only real difference seems to be that they are somehow even worse at both public relations and asymmetrical warfare than the U.S. was.

This is a tweet trying to justify why whatever Israel is doing is better than what the US did.

Saying clear / hold / build counterinsurgency tactics would fail just like Afghanistan when the main issue is that the US completely left and Afghanistan was landlocked. It's a lot different when you are right there.

Also, yeah polling is very anti-Israel but there may just not be accurate polling and Israel could probably drastically improve their polling if they switched from their plans of genocide into helping Palestine long term.

The one thing he gets right is that the IDF is not trying to destroy Hamas. Because of course they want to keep an enemy.

It also conveniently ignores that Hamas is already the Israel backed government.

https://twitter.com/Mr_Andrew_Fox/status/1789362758024069399

# ? May 12, 2024 22:15

Svaha: Oct 4, 2005

Point taken. The operational goals between the US WOT and the Israeli "War on Hamas" are pretty much apples and oranges even if they are both cloaked in near identical pr language.

Can you imagine the IDF having even the slightest regard for alienating Gazan civilians with excessive force? haha

# ? May 12, 2024 22:37

Space_Wizard: Dec 21, 2018

RE: Who is the Israeli ambassador to the UN's stunts for - Concur that it is for domestic consumption. In centrist and right wing Israeli media he is well received for 'standing up' for Israel. I have even seen op-eds promoting him as a potential new PM post Netenyahu.

As for the CNN article, I cannot understand how someone can use detainees for invasive medical training, forcibly amputate detainees limbs because they are infected from your mistreatment, force innocent people into slavery within your nightmare prison or beat prisoners for entertainment.

I can intellectually understand how someone can fall into excessive force during combat, but how does one drag a prisoner away to cut off their arm because you killed their hand with permanent, blood-flow-cutting restraints? How does their soul not...die?

# ? May 13, 2024 01:48

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

Pier news the Sagamore has had its aid cargo trans loaded to the Benavidez. They are doing this to let the Sagamore go back to Cyprus to pick up another load of aid rather than continuing to wait on the weather to get better. the Benavidez is going to stay nearby and discharge immediately when the pier gets going.

https://seapowermagazine.org/dod-uses-unfavorable-sea-conditions-to-gain-efficiencies-on-gaza-aid-mission/

# ? May 13, 2024 01:49

Lazy_Liberal: Sep 17, 2005; These stones are precious

Space_Wizard posted:

I can intellectually understand how someone can fall into excessive force during combat, but how does one drag a prisoner away to cut off their arm because you killed their hand with permanent, blood-flow-cutting restraints? How does their soul not...die?

humans are experts on dehumanizing

# ? May 13, 2024 01:59

Waddle Bourgeoidee: Apr 2, 2024

guidoanselmi posted:

https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1788910055238037741

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html

Hate to be so pessimistic here, but I have a feeling this will be Abu Ghraib all over again, meaning very few wrongdoers will get punished, and those who are convicted will serve a fraction of their lenient sentence and then immediately fade from the public eye.

quote:

In 2005, Harman was convicted on six of the seven counts she had been initially charged with, which related to the maltreatment of detainees, conspiracy relating to abuse, and dereliction of duty. She was sentenced to six months in prison the following day, for which she would serve approximately four months.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabrina_Harman

Also, how the gently caress did Bush get a second term after this huge clusterfuck? I guess conservatives will truly turn a blind eye to anything if it serves their purposes.

# ? May 13, 2024 02:23

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

?? why do you think anyone is getting punished or prosecuted at all for that, Israel is not remotely in the habit of punishing people for brutality against Palestinian prisoners. Historically they don't even go through the motions of pretending to care about Palestinian prisoners being abused.

# ? May 13, 2024 02:32

Waddle Bourgeoidee: Apr 2, 2024

Herstory Begins Now posted:

?? why do you think anyone is getting punished or prosecuted at all for that, Israel is not remotely in the habit of punishing people for brutality against Palestinian prisoners. Historically they don't even go through the motions of pretending to care about Palestinian prisoners being abused.

Maybe I wasn't so pessimistic after all lol. Almost forgot who we're dealing with here.

E: Guess I envisioned a Nuremberg Trials-like situation where a prosecution led by the international community will occur several years from now following a major Israeli defeat and expose the evils of Zionism in a similar vein to Nazism at the end of WWII.

Waddle Bourgeoidee fucked around with this message at 02:54 on May 13, 2024

# ? May 13, 2024 02:35

Argas: Jan 13, 2008; SRW Fanatic

well I won't ruin your mental image of nuremberg

I mean I just did but you know

# ? May 13, 2024 03:31

Waddle Bourgeoidee: Apr 2, 2024

Argas posted:

well I won't ruin your mental image of nuremberg

I mean I just did but you know

It prompted the execution of dangerous, high-ranking Nazi war criminals. What's not to like?

# ? May 13, 2024 04:00

Argas: Jan 13, 2008; SRW Fanatic

there's a lot more to denazification than making a big show of punishing some war criminals

# ? May 13, 2024 04:27

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 1, 2024 12:14

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

Waddle Bourgeoidee posted:

Hate to be so pessimistic here, but I have a feeling this will be Abu Ghraib all over again, meaning very few wrongdoers will get punished, and those who are convicted will serve a fraction of their lenient sentence and then immediately fade from the public eye.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabrina_Harman

Also, how the gently caress did Bush get a second term after this huge clusterfuck? I guess conservatives will truly turn a blind eye to anything if it serves their purposes.

Those terror detention sites flourished in the Obama administration as well which led to the resurgence of the Taliban and eventual American loss and exit there

# ? May 13, 2024 04:53

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel/Palestine

«‹›721 »