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Wayne Knight posted:Feel free to join us in the EV thread in AI if you want to hear from real owners’ experiences. Tl;dr: if you’re being honest about your needs most people are absolutely able to go electric. You can get a real decent used EV with 250ish miles of range for like $15k or less, depending on the rebates you qualify for. That car would cost 64 * (your local price per kilowatt-hour) to fill from completely dead. (I tend to plug it in when it hits 30-40%, but that’s completely arbitrary and since we have charging in our garageit’s as easy as plugging in your phone at night) That is a big part people have mentioned here. I have never personally lived in a place with a garage. Not even when I lived with my parents. There are no charging stations around either. The infrastructure is a much bigger problem than the cost.
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May 13, 2024 21:21
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Main Paineframe posted:A bunch of other EV companies adopted Tesla's charging standard, so now Musk probably figures he can get them to pick up the actual work of maintaining the infrastructure. Besides, Tesla's numbers so declining sharply enough that he probably needs to juice the numbers with short-term gains even if it means tanking the EV business long-term. What’s funny is this is opposite of Tesla’s long-term interests. As the Cybertruck shows, the company isn’t actually that great at making cars, they just had the advantage of being the first to make EVs a prestige product rather than the seaweed salad the weird kid would bring to school lunch. Toyota, Ford, Volvo, all the Chinese, are fundamentally better at making cars than Tesla, and their giant aircraft carriers are, albeit slowly, turning around to start moving in that direction. However, controlling the primary charging method of all these new EVs, now (a) that’s a guaranteed long-term income stream, and (b) it’s what Tesla is actually better at than anybody else. Superchargers and gigabatteries and moving the electrons around are where Tesla has a competitive advantage rather than just a first-mover advantage, and here they are pissing it away.
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May 13, 2024 21:22
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soviet elsa posted:That is a big part people have mentioned here. I have never personally lived in a place with a garage. Not even when I lived with my parents. There are no charging stations around either. The infrastructure is a much bigger problem than the cost. Agree, sounds like it doesn’t make sense for you right now.
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May 13, 2024 21:24
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Five Year Plan posted:With empathy towards whatever your precise situation is, I have a hard time accepting this as “poor.” It’s like 10+ grand below median household in the Seattle area and qualifies for low income housing programs. If they have kids and they live in a similar area they’re poor. It’s just a hair above qualifies for housing assistance in king county for a family of four. Rent is pants making GBS threads high in king county. In another part of the country it could be well above median.
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May 13, 2024 21:29
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zoux posted:I'll believe it when I see it. Especially by nearly double digit margins. Oh, I know that poll https://twitter.com/schnorkles/status/1790106988329972101 https://twitter.com/Schnorkles/status/1790108492029964402 https://twitter.com/Schnorkles/status/1790110485414883642 In TYOOL 2024, telephone poll response rates have dropped from 33% (1996) down to 0.8% for the good well-funded polls. For the bad polls, response rates are like 0.3%. You have to call 300 people to get a single political poll response. Robocalls have destroyed telephone polling and nobody in the world has a workable replacement. EDIT: Political polling response rates are so dire that this gay dead forum with it's dwindling user count could probably rig a poll or two if we all worked together on it.
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May 13, 2024 21:30
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I'm concerned that this is the new unskewing polls, but also find it hard to argue against the idea that people who are easily scammed/most willing to listen to robocallers have a bias towards Trump.
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May 13, 2024 21:52
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Bar Ran Dun posted:It’s like 10+ grand below median household in the Seattle area and qualifies for low income housing programs. If they have kids and they live in a similar area they’re poor. Yeah, after I posted this I realized they said household income and not individual income. I hope I didn’t cause any offense — I was going for “let’s keep this in perspective” and not “you’re delusional!” Cost of housing is a ravenous pit; I got priced out of my neighborhood about a year ago. (I live in King County)
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May 13, 2024 21:53
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If the polls really are wrong, then how come the same polls saying Trump has a slight lead are also saying that many Democratic congresspeople in those states have slight leads or better? I don't doubt that phone polling has gotten worse, but it also feels like maybe Biden is underperforming his own party.
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May 13, 2024 21:55
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Neo Rasa posted:Gas stations just need to add a lot of picnic tables near by and increase the amount of god-tier wings they get from Royal Farms or wherever This is something I remember bringing up months ago, that the modern gas station is designed to get as many vehicles in and out in around five minutes, with a handful (your Sheetz/Wawas/etc) having small dining areas. Once the tipping point of petrol to electric refueling happens, the time it takes to get a car from 0% to 100% (or whatever the electrical equivalent will be) will jump up from that five minutes to an hour. People aren't going to want to just sit in their car and stare at the screen the entire time, so the entire refueling process needs to be rethought. There's a Bucee's being built about an hour away from where I am. Since Texas has to go full Texas at every and all times, it'l have eleventy kerjillion fuel pumps and maybe a couple of electric chargers once it's opened in a few years. How much future-proofing is being put into their design, both in terms of electric fueling capacity and people capacity as well? Bucee's are slammed during normal human hours already and don't feature any available seating since they want people in and out. Maybe they change nothing and figure bored commuters will spend the time shopping for beaver merch and they're ahead of the game, idk. I remember asking "when do we need to consider rethinking the modern gas station" and the consensus response was "five years ago," so I'm curious what rethinking has been done, if any.
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May 13, 2024 21:55
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Five Year Plan posted:With empathy towards whatever your precise situation is, I have a hard time accepting this as “poor.” Rent sucks rear end right now dude.
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May 13, 2024 21:58
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Queering Wheel posted:I don't doubt that phone polling has gotten worse, but it also feels like maybe Biden is underperforming his own party.
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May 13, 2024 22:01
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Regarding range, in EVs you are supposed to keep the battery between 80% and 20% at all times to stem long term degradation. That means you tend to only use 60% or so of the available charge. Moreover - and most importantly, the best electric car is a train.
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May 13, 2024 22:06
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Five Year Plan posted:Yeah, after I posted this I realized they said household income and not individual income. I hope I didn’t cause any offense — I was going for “let’s keep this in perspective” and not “you’re delusional!” Cost of housing is a ravenous pit; I got priced out of my neighborhood about a year ago. (I live in King County) No no you're fine. And yes, I do live in the Seattle metro. The thing is, this stuff is holistic. Seattle is full of people who live just outside the city and commute in. I live super close to the highway and it is not pleasant. If we could replace all of those cars with EVs the world would be at least a little better. Obviously public transit is a more sustainable option but as anyone who has ever lived in this city can tell you that's a 20-30 year plan. We can subsidize EVs right now if there was a political will to do it. Also not for nothing but poor people who don't own a car are often still commuting, at least in terms of people I work with. And you'd think they'd all be taking the bus but around here if you live in say, Lynnwood, which is only about seven miles away, the fastest bus route to and from even some major hubs is measured in hours, because of changing at stops or lack of direct routes or just plain traffic. As poor people are pushed out of cities I have a hard time believing they aren't commuting somehow; the same story is playing out all over the country. You either eat some kind of major quality of life cost to stay inside the city - working three jobs or having five roommates - or you move out of the city. If you move out of the city, the work is still inside the city, so you can either drive or you can take three busses and accept a 12 hour day along with your commute. Obviously cities with better commuter options close this gap a bit. But people will carpool or accept absurd Uber prices if it means not sitting on a bus for a quarter of their work day. I'm not saying your statistics are wrong but I get the sense there may be something missing in them. Poverty guidelines in the US are an absolute joke. I have been poor my entire adult life, staring in my 20s when I was making about 35k, then in my 30s when I was making more like 48k and now I'm a little over 64K. My partner has a disability and though they have a job now it is has been a struggle their whole life and they absolutely would not be working if we didn't have to. There were weeks where I would try to make a box of mac and cheese last a couple of days or where I'd have to borrow money to pay rent. I am not a spendthrift; I have a car from 2012 that I upkeep as best as I can, I sparingly buy clothes, I rarely travel. I am not dying by any means but I couldn't afford to see a doctor regularly until I was 35. Things are substantially better now but I live in a 400sq foot apartment. If I didn't have a car, I wouldn't have a job. I have to live outside of the city to afford rent, but I have to travel into the city to make the kind of money I need to make. There are people who spend far more money who have far less to spend because they likewise need a car. If we're serious about transitioning to less pollution we need to make sure people who need to drive to live can afford an EV.
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May 13, 2024 22:13
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while electric vehicles make sense now for some people, mass adoption of evs without fundamental changes to how americans get around is not going to be the answer. heavier vehicles cause more pollution (evs do not emit carbon but just the act of driving on a road kicks up a ton of particulate pollution) and damages the road more - recall that road damage is to the fourth power of axel weight. these heavy vehicles are also much more dangerous to pedestrians and cyclists. not to mention there are a ton of parking garages that were not designed with such heavy vehicles in mind. i already know of at least one parking garage collapse that was caused by poor maintenance and too many heavy vehicles. making every single car a really heavy electric vehicle, in particular when you factor in americans love for huge vehicles anyway - the electric hummer is five tons for christs sake - is not going to be good at all. are we going to have to reinforce a bunch of bridges to account for this? or just cross our fingers and hope for the best.
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May 13, 2024 22:16
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lobster shirt posted:while electric vehicles make sense now for some people, mass adoption of evs without fundamental changes to how americans get around is not going to be the answer. heavier vehicles cause more pollution (evs do not emit carbon but just the act of driving on a road kicks up a ton of particulate pollution) and damages the road more - recall that road damage is to the fourth power of axel weight. That's an excellent point and an engineering consideration I'd not thought about. So we've got ourselves in a situation where if we actually adopted the green-thing the way we say we want to poo poo would figuratively and maybe literally collapse? Christ.
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May 13, 2024 22:21
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haveblue posted:They're trying to subsidize the industry, but since US industry in general is still so heavily dependent on Chinese manufacturing, ensuring that the subsidies don't end up flowing to China in the end means you have to disqualify the vast majority of makes and models Wasn't there legislation in one of the recovery bills under Biden to build out charging stations across the country? Has that started yet? eta: I know anecdotally of two couples who were assigned EVs as car rentals in the last couple years but then had problems finding charging stations; one was in the environs of San Jose, CA, so we're not talking super-remote, but that was about a year ago so maybe the charging stations have proliferated since then. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 22:26 on May 13, 2024 |
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May 13, 2024 22:24
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Queering Wheel posted:If the polls really are wrong, then how come the same polls saying Trump has a slight lead are also saying that many Democratic congresspeople in those states have slight leads or better? I think if you start with “if the polls really are wrong”, the rest of the analysis isn’t really built on anything.
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May 13, 2024 22:29
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lobster shirt posted:these heavy vehicles are also much more dangerous to pedestrians and cyclists. Why? Size matters because of sight lines and being more likely to be pulled under, but even a "light" car is 10-20x heavier than an adult pedestrian.
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May 13, 2024 22:30
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golden bubble posted:Oh, I know that poll The old white people said they'd vote for Biden, though, and the younger people's sampling sizes ranged from n = 726 (zoomers) to n = 1254 (xers), which are decent samples. Here's Siena's notes on their sampling: quote:How These Polls Were Conducted I don't think this varies wildly from results from other polls that use call data, but if you want to try juking a poll I suggest signing up for an online one like yougov, which are reasonable replacements if you don't trust phone polls. (Many pollsters use combinations of phone & online.) It is harder these days to get people to answer polls by phone but not impossible, and there are also online surveys like yougov. eta: That last tweet appears to be uneducated cope about sampling & representative sampling, and ignores the notes that were added to the crosstabs as well as the FAQs. And to think that Siena, the no. 1 rated pollster on 538, is throwing the results is simply absurd, especially given more olds supporting Biden than any other age group. etaa: The reasons they threw out some of the polling, as they describe in the notes, was to obtain representative overall sampling. We might be able to use a summary post or thread on statistical polling & representative sampling, if there are any experts in the house. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 05:42 on May 14, 2024 |
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May 13, 2024 22:38
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I'm fine with the tariffs on the basis that Biden gotta win Michigan, so do whatever. But I'd feel a lot better about them if the American auto industry was putting in more effort to make affordable electric cars, or just small cars in general, rather than just saying actually everyone just wants trucks and there's nothing that can be done. Because I'll need to buy a new car when my fit dies and boy those small Chinese electrics sound pretty good
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May 13, 2024 22:53
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Morrow posted:I'm concerned that this is the new unskewing polls, but also find it hard to argue against the idea that people who are easily scammed/most willing to listen to robocallers have a bias towards Trump. Then what's the rationale for the olds' supporting Biden, not Trump, in this poll? I'd think they'd be the most inclined to answer polling calls, and they also are the most reliable voters, as well as the most easily "scammed."* *Who's doing the "scamming" in this instance & for what reasons? I don't know if I've ever heard a major pollster described as "scamming" the people it's polling, other than push-polling, which we know is not the case in this instance because each question is listed in the crosstabs. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 23:19 on May 13, 2024 |
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May 13, 2024 22:53
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lobster shirt posted:these heavy vehicles are also much more dangerous to pedestrians and cyclists. KillHour posted:Why? Size matters because of sight lines and being more likely to be pulled under, but even a "light" car is 10-20x heavier than an adult pedestrian. Three reasons. 1. EVs have ridiculous acceleration levels, too much for many inexperienced drivers. 2. They don't make noise when moving at slow speeds, which is why some are starting to have warning sounds for pedestrians. 3. Being hit by a heavy vehicle is worse than a lighter one, other factors being equal. At low speeds, you might survive a lighter car hitting you. We are also talking about cyclists, btw.
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May 13, 2024 22:54
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KillHour posted:Why? Size matters because of sight lines and being more likely to be pulled under, but even a "light" car is 10-20x heavier than an adult pedestrian. force is mass times acceleration, all else equal i would much rather be hit by a 2800 pound gas elantra than a 4000 pound electric one. also electric vehicles accelerate much more quickly, meaning it takes them far less time to get up to speeds that are dangerous for other road users. witht he skill levels of american drivers... lol its not good to think about.
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May 13, 2024 23:10
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lobster shirt posted:while electric vehicles make sense now for some people, mass adoption of evs without fundamental changes to how americans get around is not going to be the answer. I'm not aware of any other option. There's challenges, yes, but we can't keep driving gas cars, it's simply not an option. I would love to get to a less car dependant society (I take the bus around 90% of the time), but that has even less support than EVs. EVs are juuust now getting to be ready for almost everyone. In 10 years they're going to be the norm and we'll be on the other side of the transition. We'll fix most of these problems, and yes, we'll introduce new ones. But we can't keep up with emissions as we have been. It's not an option.
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May 13, 2024 23:10
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lobster shirt posted:force is mass times acceleration, all else equal i would much rather be hit by a 2800 pound gas elantra than a 4000 pound electric one. You're not going to absorb all of that energy though - once something is an order of magnitude heavier than you, it may as well be infinite weight as far as a pedestrian is concerned. You're going to bounce off either way. The acceleration is valid, but doesn't really have anything to do with weight.
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May 13, 2024 23:16
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soviet elsa posted:That is a big part people have mentioned here. I have never personally lived in a place with a garage. Not even when I lived with my parents. There are no charging stations around either. The infrastructure is a much bigger problem than the cost. I don’t have a garage and own an EV. I live in the woods and it’s literally just plugged into an extension cord by the woodshed. Not a fancy charging port, just a big, heavy extension cord that I already had lying around. It’s an absolute dream and I can never imagine going back to driving an ICE vehicle*. You don’t actually need a level 2/3 charger (the kind that uses a dryer plug and the pseudo-gas station kind, respectively) unless you’re doing something weird like driving more than 300 miles per day on a near-daily basis. You just straight up don’t. If you think that, you are probably wrong, I’m sorry to tell you. If you are just commuting/running errands the vast, vast vast majority of the time your car isn’t driving, it’s just sitting there. If you plug it in for those times you’ll be fine. My dirt-cheap used Chevy Bolt has a ~210 miles of range right now on a full charge, but that’s rarely the most relevant way to think about it. A better way is that 210 is about the most I can put “in the bank” at a time. Most poo poo I actually do is within 20-30 miles of me, 40-60 round trip, and at the absolute worst, slowest charging speed I get back about 4miles/hour. i.e. it takes me between 10-14 hours of charging to get back a day’s commute with some loving around and getting groceries. Your car almost certainly spends at least ten hours just sitting every day because you sleep and eat and probably aren’t driving your entire work day. Most days the car might as well have a range of 60 miles for how it actually gets used. Sometimes I need more in a given day, so I dip into my “bank” because I’m not netting zero, i.e. I start at 180, use 70, get back 50 and start the next day with “””only””” 160 miles in the bank. This doesn’t really matter unless I’m doing this several days in a row, enough that I completely exhaust my “bank”. If that happens, which it has exactly twice so far, I drive down the mountain I live on top of and go to the bullshit, rinky-dink town of less than a thousand people at the bottom where there’s a plug. I know you said there aren’t chargers by you, but I hate to break it to you that you’re almost certainly wrong. I live in the rear end end of the North East US, one of the places with the worst charging infrastructure, and there are still public level 2 chargers somewhere every 5-10 miles. The giant ugly Tesla Superchargers are very visually obvious, but most level 2 chargers (“destination charger” in Tesla-speak) basically look like an ATM with a little hose, and they tend to be semi-hidden for aesthetic reasons. Unless you are looking for them (and know what they look like!) you will miss them. The best way to find them is via various apps like ChargeHub and Plug Share. Now, it would take me ~9 hours to go from 0-100% on a level 2 because Bolts are famously extra super slow to charge, but it doesn’t matter. I don’t need to fully charge, as established that’s way more than I need. This is just a back-up to get some of my “bank” back because I’m a solid week into driving significantly more than I usually need to do. A couple hours is plenty for my needs so I can just go see a movie or some poo poo. After that I’m back in the black. If you are actually using level 3 charging (i.e. the “gas station”, wait a half hour method) you’re doing it wrong or it’s an emergency. I’ve only used it to make sure the thing works so I don’t find out when I really need it. Basically the only time you need them are 1) road trips of greater than max range or 2) you need to drive more than your current charge-level with no warning to build up a “bank”. I mean this in the nicest way possible, but a lot of people in this thread very obviously aren’t EV owners and are just kind of imagining what it’s like. It’s very silly and if anyone is curious I wanna echo cool poster Wayne Knight’s suggestion to ask some questions in the EV thread in AI. *to be maximally honest, I’m building a carport this summer but that has nothing to do with charging infrastructure and everything to do with a gently caress-off huge sycamore branch crunching my hood in a wind storm. It won’t be a garage and I doubt I’ll actually be loving with my charging set-up much.
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May 13, 2024 23:16
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When people say they don’t have a garage they mean they have no space where a garage could be because their neighborhood is too dense and/or they live in an apartment. Their car might not be parked on or even near their property
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May 13, 2024 23:39
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Tesla may not be everyone's idea of a good car but they do turn a profit. Ford loses between 50-100k per ev. Somehow, Ford could save money by buying every customer they have a model 3 and telling them to gently caress off.
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May 13, 2024 23:41
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Dante80 posted:
That's a bit of an oversimplification. It's the best in certain ways or at certain levels of environmental and financial constraint. But trains as we understand them are nowhere near even the ideal train. We could have trains where carriages have their own destinations and join and leave the train as it traverses a branching network that brings people nearly as close to their destination as a car would.
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May 13, 2024 23:58
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lobster shirt posted:while electric vehicles make sense now for some people, mass adoption of evs without fundamental changes to how americans get around is not going to be the answer. heavier vehicles cause more pollution (evs do not emit carbon but just the act of driving on a road kicks up a ton of particulate pollution) and damages the road more - recall that road damage is to the fourth power of axel weight. I feel you, but these two arguments are faulty. 80,000 lb semis are causing the majority of road damage even in a world where every other car in an ev. And I'm pretty sure all cars give off tire and brake pad dust. I'd love to see the coasts turned into multi-modal megacities where nobody needs a car but that is far far into the future at best. EVs are an important step in decarbonization and they're here now, we need to embrace them. Magic Underwear fucked around with this message at 00:09 on May 14, 2024 |
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May 14, 2024 00:07
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Magic Underwear posted:I feel you, but these two arguments are faulty. 80,000 lb semis are causing the majority of road damage even in a world where every other car in an ev. And I'm pretty sure all cars give off tire and brake pad dust. This is true. A larger amount of the microplastics problem comes from worn rubber turning into dust and then getting washed into the water supply when the rain comes through.
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May 14, 2024 00:16
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Xiahou Dun posted:I don’t have a garage and own an EV. I live in the woods and it’s literally just plugged into an extension cord by the woodshed. Not a fancy charging port, just a big, heavy extension cord that I already had lying around. It’s an absolute dream and I can never imagine going back to driving an ICE vehicle*. I live in a fifth story 550sqft apartment in Texas, and my car lives in my one tiny assigned parking space a good distance from where I live. There is one gas station with one charging station among anywhere I regularly go. If I in some Doc Brown scheme run an extension cord, I am just getting fined for lease violations.
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May 14, 2024 00:17
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I think that “if you forget about the massive amounts of combustion products and oil literally everywhere then technically EVs pollute more” argument originated on Fox News but I see it pop up in leftier communities sometimes because it’s a convenient way to spread garbage in favor of a bunch of different talking points It’s not wrong that EVs are harder on tires, but it’s such small potatoes compared to practically everything involved with fueling and operating ICE vehicles Tiny Timbs fucked around with this message at 00:21 on May 14, 2024 |
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May 14, 2024 00:19
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haveblue posted:When people say they don’t have a garage they mean they have no space where a garage could be because their neighborhood is too dense and/or they live in an apartment. Their car might not be parked on or even near their property Non-sarcastically, sincerely : if that’s true then they’re being annoyingly unclear, bordering on deliberately obfuscating their meaning. Because the answer to that is better public transportation and not a car of any kind. Jamming a red square in a round hole isn’t better than a blue one and one needs to identify the relevant problem before one can solve it. Cities shouldn’t generally have cars in them at all because the only thing cars are good for is moving small groups of people through large, sparsely populated areas. If one lives in a city one should be walking/biking/riding something with lots of other people. Not trying to dodge or do some “lol get on the bus, poors” nonsense. My return to rural living is very begrudging and I miss living in Harlem. The only reason I drive at all is because there will never be a train that I don’t have to drive to (which is how I get anywhere further than 200 miles from me anyway). Obviously not trying to say this is the fault of individuals living in this modern hell world, but cities full of any kind of cars are hosed from the jump and it’s not EVs fault they don’t solve it. Hopefully that doesn’t sound too lecture-y/ didactic. I’m not trying to do that, I know you know most of what I just said already, but I don’t think EVs being unable to solve another, different problem is particularly damning for them because it’s silly to think they ever could or should.
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May 14, 2024 00:21
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soviet elsa posted:I live in a fifth story 550sqft apartment in Texas, and my car lives in my one tiny assigned parking space a good distance from where I live. There is one gas station with one charging station among anywhere I regularly go. Legit sorry for the misunderstanding. It would be probably pretty easy for your landlord to give you access to a 120v plug, but no way they will and that sucks.
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May 14, 2024 00:28
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Xiahou Dun posted:Legit sorry for the misunderstanding. They're not going to pay for the electricity you'd be using either. And no landlord is going to go out of their way to rig up a charger off your meter.
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May 14, 2024 00:58
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PeterWeller posted:Yeah, charging and range are still problems for a lot of people. If you live in an apartment, don't have a garage, or cannot afford to get a charger installed, your best bet is not running an extension cord out your window but instead going to a charging station much like you would take your gas car to a gas station. Taking a car to a gas station is like a 5 minute stop on your way home or to wherever you're driving to. There are gas stations on every other corner wherever you're driving. You pull up and put gas in and you're out in like 5 minutes. Taking a car to an electric charging station is like a 1+ hour affair. You gotta drive your rear end to the station and hope nobody else is using it or hope that some rear end in a top hat isn't parked in it with their megatruck. Then you gotta wait there for an hour for it to charge. You're not going to do this on your way home from work or on your way to get groceries.
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May 14, 2024 01:48
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Private ownership of motor vehicles is absurd. The future will not have privately owned cars.
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May 14, 2024 01:53
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Boris Galerkin posted:Taking a car to a gas station is like a 5 minute stop on your way home or to wherever you're driving to. There are gas stations on every other corner wherever you're driving. You pull up and put gas in and you're out in like 5 minutes. My local grocery store just installed a bank of like ten Tesla chargers last summer during their resurfacing. It’s not even a Whole Foods or the like either. Stores and movie theaters who figure out this hack are going to be making some bank. Theaters especially need to get on it they’re dying. Air conditioning saved their butts once upon a time, this time it should be ultra purified air and EV stations.
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May 14, 2024 02:15
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Boris Galerkin posted:Taking a car to a gas station is like a 5 minute stop on your way home or to wherever you're driving to. There are gas stations on every other corner wherever you're driving. You pull up and put gas in and you're out in like 5 minutes. I charge basically exclusively at grocery stores. I shop while it charges.
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May 14, 2024 03:23
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