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i haven't watched the clone wars cartoons and the movies are (like most space opera lol) pretty terrible at conveying scale, so i'm kinda curious: how big were the clone wars really? did it represent an all-out total war mobilization on both sides, or was it the separatists going full tilt while the republic bumped the defense budget by a percentage point, or...? did a bunch of planets and billions of people get clobbered, or was it mostly soldiers and robots getting killed? i guess the real question is, could the clone wars have been even nastier/more brutal than they were? is there room in the star wars setting for even greater escalation/mobilization? (yes yes yes "well actually since ol' palps was behind everything..." okay fine master smarty-pants, thank you) (also is there any reason given, aside from the fact that it's how obi-wan called it in 1977, for it being clone wars plural and not just "the clone war"? like there weren't even any armistices or anything in there right?)
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Apr 17, 2023 06:29
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:i haven't watched the clone wars cartoons and the movies are (like most space opera lol) pretty terrible at conveying scale, so i'm kinda curious: how big were the clone wars really? My takeaway was that the Old Republic had to keep bumping up budgets for the war until the Emperor came to power and could scale the response according to his long term plans. But the cartoons make it clear that there was war raging across the galaxy and that pirates and gangsters took advantage of the GCW to allow them to create their own private wars or to make money as mercs.
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Apr 18, 2023 13:52
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I think the numbers provided by the old EU had the clone army composed of around 3-4 million soldiers, which seems insanely small for a galaxy-wide war. Apparently 6 months after Geonosis there were 1.2 million active soldiers, and by the end of the war there were still about a million in development on Kamino. So it seems like the army was small, but constantly replenishing. Attack of the Clones stated that there were 200,000 units ready to fight when Obi-Wan arrived, with a million more "well on the way". It can probably be assumed that those 200,000 are the first batch created 10 years earlier, while the other million are close enough to be sent into battle 6 months later. We don't know if the clones' accelerated aging also includes gestational development - if it does, then presumably the Kaminoans are pumping out 200,000 soldiers every 4.5 months. If not, then there's a new 200,000 soldier batch every 9 months. I think we need to assume that the clones are gestationally accelerated too, though. If there's 1.2 million clones fighting at the start of the war and 3+ million clones by the end, then they'd need to be producing them fairly quick. 200,000 clones every 4.5 months for 10 years supports that number, though it does require the youngest clones to hit the battlefield when they're physically 16 years old. However, it seems like clone age acceleration tends to increase as a clone ages (if Temuera Morrison clones and Bodie Taylor clones being in the same scene are any indication), so 8 year old clones might be physically closer to adulthood than a flat 2x growth acceleration would suggest. The droid army seemed to be significantly larger than the clone forces. One source mentioned that the clones at the battle of Kashyyyk were outnumbered 5:1, and the Republic Commando books had four-man squads taking out Separatist bases staffed with hundreds of droids. I've seen numbers ranging from a billion to a quadrillion droids, which is probably more realistic for a galaxy-wide war, but seems insane compared to the numbers given for the clones. Though apparently any local militias or judicial forces across the Republic were folded into the army during the Clone Wars (since the Republic had dissolved its previous standing army 1000 years earlier), so the clones weren't fighting alone. Most of the admirals and other non-Jedi commanders came from these armies, including guys like Tarkin. Having a smaller clone army and relying on local militias to face the brunt of Separatist attacks also probably made it easier for the Empire to roll in after the war, since the smaller local armies that could protect their planets had been worn down already fighting droids for 3 years. The number of clones might also have been scaled to the number of Jedi - Order 66 was planned from the start, so the Jedi needed to spend the war learning to trust the Clones, and very few probably would have led local militias rather than clone soldiers for the duration of the war. There's also propaganda to consider. Both sides of the war were controlled by the same guy, so it would have been relatively easy to direct battles to the most impactful worlds and allow the media to make the war seem more devastating than it might have actually been. As for the name, the pluralization seems to come from it being a series of smaller wars that combined into a larger conflict. For example, the takeover of Mandalore by Darth Maul didn't really have anything to do with the larger conflict with the Separtists, but still required the Republic to intervene and was one of the many wars fought by the clones.
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Apr 18, 2023 21:03
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The timeline is most unrealistic thing. It's hard to see how a galaxy wide war would be settled that quickly and wouldn't drag on for decades.
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Apr 19, 2023 17:52
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Old EU played around with numbers. The standing army of clones remained at around 3 million active soldiers for most of the war followed by an immense deployment of a second wave at the start of Revenge of the Sith that was used to push back the Seps and act as an occupation force to pacify the postwar galaxy. Current canon has as many clones and battlefields as needed.
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Apr 19, 2023 19:03
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Impossibly Perfect Sphere posted:The timeline is most unrealistic thing. It's hard to see how a galaxy wide war would be settled that quickly and wouldn't drag on for decades. Most armies don't have an off-switch. But a number of Rebels were former Separatists anyway, so the war did kind of continue for decades - though the "let's roll the galaxy back to the point right before total Fascism" camp outweighed the "maybe there shouldn't be a Republic at all" camp so they didn't have a ton of influence.
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Apr 19, 2023 20:04
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idk on the one hand i get a big vibe from post-OT material of "ugh everyone just wants to be left alone", on the other hand i'm pretty sure a multi-polar galaxy is going to see a lot more (if perhaps much smaller-scale) star wars lol
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Apr 19, 2023 23:36
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idk. maybe the setting is such that there'd be peace and harmony if only it weren't for that dang ol' immortal force demon
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Apr 19, 2023 23:37
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anyway, again, how many planets/people got clobbered by the clone wars? was it even really a thing that affected most people in the galaxy?
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Apr 19, 2023 23:38
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:anyway, again, how many planets/people got clobbered by the clone wars? was it even really a thing that affected most people in the galaxy? In comparison to other wars nothing comes close to how widespread the Clone Wars were until you get into stuff like the Vong War from the old EU. You had planets on fire from the Outer Rim to the Core Worlds. Not many people will forget the day that the galactic capital came under attack by one of the largest fleets ever seen. The galactic Civil War was an extremely widespread insurrection but it took the Alliance years to build up a proper standing army so the early years of the war were all specific raids and local rebellions. The Clone Wars were full on deployments between two roughly equal militaries while still fighting across just as wide a front as the Civil War. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Apr 20, 2023 |
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Apr 20, 2023 01:01
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There's some indeterminate amount of Planetary Defense Forces going at war as well as the main droid and clone armies, but that's way off in the background most of the time. Usually they just stick to their particular worlds. The Clone Wars series depicts that with the arc of the Clones invading Umbara and fighting through the weird local defenses and the Ryloth arc where local Twi'lek resistance groups have to fight alongside the clone armies against droid invaders. Mon Calamari had local armies from both the dominant races fighting alongside the CIS and Republic. The movies even have some with the Geonosians and Wookiees having to field their own armies alongside the official forces. There were also a number of weird cases where planets weren't officially part of the war, but had some kind of involvement. Neutral worlds getting pulled into things, local civil wars that are tangentially related, even planets offering some kind of vague aid to one side or another. Mandalore, Toydaria, Onderon, and Tattooine all have cases of that. The Republic definitely wanted to restrict its assistance to worlds that wouldn't totally join, while the Separatists were willing to coup local leaders to pull them into the war. I like to think of the war taking like ~10 years so that a whole generation grows up knowing mostly the galaxy at war, knowing constant threats of violence that may come to their world in particular, and facing rising taxes and increasing government control to pay for the war and assert the authority of the army to execute the war, and also the Jedi get forgotten as they spend most of their time off on the war effort. One thing for certain is that by the end of it, the Separatists were devastated enough that they were no longer galactic powers worth reckoning with. The banks were totally taken over by new Imperial governance, a couple of them even underwent genocides so their numbers would be greatly reduced throughout the galaxy. That also helped pave the way for the Empire's more human supremacist regime, which people don't talk about much onscreen, but definitely is some kind of theme.
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Apr 20, 2023 05:47
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Impossibly Perfect Sphere posted:The timeline is most unrealistic thing. It's hard to see how a galaxy wide war would be settled that quickly and wouldn't drag on for decades. It's prob faster since the logistics are a lot easier in space. Anything you want is a few hour lightspeed jump away. You don't need to worry about supply lines or needing a friendly country/planet to act as a staging area when you can pop in a half dozen jumbo aircraft carrier space ships wherever whenever you want. Or maybe they did have to deal with that poo poo I dunno I never watched clone wars.
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Apr 20, 2023 07:01
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The idea of a galaxy wide government is beyond stupid anyway. Why would anyone agree to be part of that? A galaxy UN I can understand.
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Apr 20, 2023 14:24
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I mean the republic never was galaxy wide. There's Hutt Space, the Corporate Sector, and thousands of independent systems along the Rim. And every instance has shown the Republic to be a bureaucratic nightmare that is incapable of responding in any swift fashion.
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Apr 20, 2023 15:30
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So the clones all became storm troopers right? Until they ran out?
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Apr 23, 2023 22:25
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Lawman 0 posted:So the clones all became storm troopers right? Until they ran out? In Disney the Clones were phased out in favour of volunteer "TK Troopers" who became the Stormtrooper Corps. In the EU clones were still used but after a clone rebellion on Kamino they added more cloning candidates than just Jango Fett and they also took on volunteers.
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Apr 23, 2023 23:04
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Pretty early on in the series, there was some mention of Stormtroopers being clones - an article from a Star Wars poster magazine in 1978 mentions:quote:The creation of an Imperial Stormtrooper. A cloned man is one of a group of genetically identical humans, an assembly line product. He is a thinking man, but he serves a specific purpose and no other. A clone has no mother; only his trainers, and he accepts his fate because he believes it is inevitable. A clone is, physically and emotionally, a normal man. He simply has no human rights and no name. He is the property of the Emperor. Soldiers fully formed in the growth thanks quickly proved impractical. Scientists found themselves the befuddled fathers of one hundred sixty pound blubbering idiots. A fetus is now removed from the hatchery after a gestation period of sixty weeks and is delivered immediately into the hands of its trainers.  While the article itself is written by a guy named Anthony Fredrickson, but around this time George Lucas was providing a lot of lore and backstory to various licensees to use when writing stuff like this, so it's possible that this was based on some of that info Lucas had provided. The cloning process we see here is certainly much closer to what ended up in the movies than stuff like the Spaarti cylinders from Zahn's books. There's also some interesting Clone Wars-adjacent information from an early Marvel UK Star Wars comic's glossary - notably, that Obi-Wan was the leader of the Jedi Knights, and the Clone Wars were the last stand of the Jedi against the Empire. 
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Apr 24, 2023 01:19
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Keep in mind the thematic parallel is definitely WWI/WWII in scope and tone, maybe even more the former because of how prolonged and brutal the fighting got- by design. The same guy being the ultimate authority on both sides definitely plays in, there's bits in The Clone Wars where Palpatine actively takes actions that would prolong the war, because the point is to cause as much damage and chaos as possible and thin the ranks of the Jedi through attrition so Order 66 can mop them up, and so the Empire looks like a remotely proportionate response once people are exhausted and have known only war for a decade ish. Also I think it's strongly implied that the Republic having overseen relative peace for about as long as anyone can remember meant the Clone Wars was massively disruptive, and also set off a lot of brushfire wars and long-standing conflicts boiling over into open war as the Republic and Separatists sought allies, like on Mon Calamari and Mandalore. Not to mention you had terrorist attacks, kidnappings and bombings at the heart of the Republic itself on Coruscant. (and the occasional rampaging kaiju) It's also probably meant to be a very badly fought war, even by the standards of big horrible wars. When the armies on both sides are literally manufactured and meant to be expendable and all... the Jedi are basically super-soldiers but not necessarily good at actually leading armies, and likewise the hastily assembled Republic auxillaries and officer corps probably have very little real experience. And on the other hand, the Separatists are mostly explicitly petrostate failson tier leadership, and rely mostly on endless churned out cheap battle droids mixed with wunderwaften projects and a handful of their own super-soldiers like Grievous. This is all of course very much on purpose, and another point of WWI comparison, but that's absolutely a recipe for endless amounts of clones and droids to be marched right into the grinder and entire worlds becoming engulfed in war as both sides seek every advantage they can grasp. Canonically there are already genocides, displacement, and entire planets being rendered uninhabitable.
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Apr 24, 2023 10:47
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Personally if I were an omnipotent evil emperor, puppet mastering two sides of a galactic war to further my goals of evil, with evil space Jesus already in my pocket, I would just keep making clone soldiers forever. There’s no telling what schemes might need filling, I’ve already got the resources and tech to make infinity footsoldiers, I can blast you to death with my hands if things go really sideways, honestly this Palpatine guy sounds like a dumbass
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Apr 25, 2023 01:23
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I feel like a number of pre-prequel writers imagined the Clone Wars as a series of conflicts rather than just one big one with presumably a bunch of different clone armies running around at once. The Kenner pitch for continuing Star Wars back in the 80s was for master geneticist "Atha Prime" to have been the architect of the Clone Wars, and the death of the Emperor would somehow make way for his return with his clone warriors to make his bid at conquering the galaxy with his double-decker star destroyer. Which I guess implies that he was some kind of threat that the emperor had kept at bay.
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Apr 25, 2023 03:49
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So much of the clone wars stuff is like..what? Kamino is know for its clones but like who else is ordering enough clones to keep this as a viable business? Jabbas pretty rich why not have a ton of clone guards instead of pigmen? Do we ever hear about clones of any kind anywhere else? How does cloning not violate the no slavery rule considering youre mentally conditioning them as children to be obedient soldiers or whatever. Is Kamino also providing them with all the Venators and Acclimators and LAATs and other ships they just appear with? So Kamino is also a top rate shipyard too? Why didnt palp just get the blueprints on how to clone himself just in case he dies instead of whatever the gently caress happened in Rise of Skywalker? Why hasnt anyone done a story about cloning sexiest man in the galaxy Dash Rendar?
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Apr 25, 2023 04:40
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banned from Starbucks posted:So much of the clone wars stuff is like..what? Kamino is know for its clones but like who else is ordering enough clones to keep this as a viable business? Jabbas pretty rich why not have a ton of clone guards instead of pigmen? Do we ever hear about clones of any kind anywhere else? How does cloning not violate the no slavery rule considering youre mentally conditioning them as children to be obedient soldiers or whatever. Is Kamino also providing them with all the Venators and Acclimators and LAATs and other ships they just appear with? So Kamino is also a top rate shipyard too? Why didnt palp just get the blueprints on how to clone himself just in case he dies instead of whatever the gently caress happened in Rise of Skywalker? Why hasnt anyone done a story about cloning sexiest man in the galaxy Dash Rendar? Well Kamino likely had smaller clients but when a guy comes to you with an unlimited credit card given to him by an evil space wizard for a "give me an army" contract it kinda puts all of Kamino's resources into one big rear end government project. As for the fleet, there were other backroom deals set up by Palpatine, Sifo Dyas and Dooku to supply ships. The majority of the Republic Starfleet was built by Kuat Drive Yards, Rothana Heavy Engineering and Rendili Shipyards.
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Apr 25, 2023 04:43
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banned from Starbucks posted:So much of the clone wars stuff is like..what? Kamino is know for its clones but like who else is ordering enough clones to keep this as a viable business? Jabbas pretty rich why not have a ton of clone guards instead of pigmen? Do we ever hear about clones of any kind anywhere else? How does cloning not violate the no slavery rule considering youre mentally conditioning them as children to be obedient soldiers or whatever. Is Kamino also providing them with all the Venators and Acclimators and LAATs and other ships they just appear with? So Kamino is also a top rate shipyard too? Why didnt palp just get the blueprints on how to clone himself just in case he dies instead of whatever the gently caress happened in Rise of Skywalker? Why hasnt anyone done a story about cloning sexiest man in the galaxy Dash Rendar? Good news! (Well, until the new EU anyways lol) Though (Mando s3 finale spoilers) they leaned in hard with the Gideon clones
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Apr 25, 2023 09:48
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Ok, so the Republic suddenly has the clone army, whatever I get it. And they suddenly have bought all these ships... and where does the military crew to man them come from???
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Apr 25, 2023 15:05
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Impossibly Perfect Sphere posted:Ok, so the Republic suddenly has the clone army, whatever I get it. And they suddenly have bought all these ships... and where does the military crew to man them come from??? Old EU: The initial fleet over Geonosis was entirely manned by clones. After Geonosis there was a quiet period because the Republic was still in no shape to fight on a galactic scale and there was a mass mobilization of crewmen for the new fleet. This is the period where a bunch of Seps took power and expanded their holdings unopposed while the rest of the Republic mobilized. As for Disney EU I have no idea.
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Apr 25, 2023 17:12
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There was some kind of preexisting Republic fleet to pull some officers for, but yeah, a lot of clones to fill the space until recruitment could get things rolling. banned from Starbucks posted:How does cloning not violate the no slavery rule What no slavery rule? They weren't part of the Republic when they started and when the war started the Republic was in a panic and not really thinking critically about anything.
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Apr 25, 2023 18:45
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Apr 25, 2023 23:46
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My understanding is that they were pretty big. However, they definitely could have been bigger if they had put in a little extra effort.
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Apr 26, 2023 00:59
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The Clone Wars and the Bigger Clone Wars
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Apr 26, 2023 01:05
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Cloone Wars
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Apr 29, 2023 01:03
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:i guess the real question is, could the clone wars have been even nastier/more brutal than they were? is there room in the star wars setting for even greater escalation/mobilization? yeah, make more clones, have more wars! lol
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Apr 29, 2023 01:48
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Quone Wars. To quone something.
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Apr 29, 2023 03:17
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Crone Wars. Bunch of elderly curmudgeons
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Apr 29, 2023 03:30
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More like Clown Wars
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Apr 29, 2023 05:06
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My take has always been that the Clone Wars absolutely trashed the galaxy, and that's the reason why the OT has everyone running around in beat-up old pieces of junk. It's post-apocalyptic.
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Apr 30, 2023 04:01
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Winifred Madgers posted:My take has always been that the Clone Wars absolutely trashed the galaxy, and that's the reason why the OT has everyone running around in beat-up old pieces of junk. It's post-apocalyptic. This is absolutely text, iirc some of the games have Republic and Empire era versions of the same maps and the ones in the Empire era are dilapidated and dirty. Also the reason why prequels have a focus on shiny and stylish vehicles and landscapes, it's the age of peace and prosperity before everything got hosed up and barely anyone can afford or wants to make their spaceships shiny and sleek anymore. The Empire's sucking up all the resources and shooting anyone who complains or is just in the way.
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Apr 30, 2023 10:01
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The Kaminoans always gave off a bad guy vibe to me, because of their long necks, their part in the evil scheme, and the part where they lived on a villain style island lair. Or was that like the whole planet? Villain style island lair planet, always dark and storming, great for brooding plots, but the guys are pretty average?
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May 9, 2023 01:08
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I bet there’s loads of friendly Gungans living in the seas of Kamino.
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May 9, 2023 01:09
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Quotey posted:The Kaminoans always gave off a bad guy vibe to me, because of their long necks, their part in the evil scheme, and the part where they lived on a villain style island lair. Or was that like the whole planet? Villain style island lair planet, always dark and storming, great for brooding plots, but the guys are pretty average? They were capitalists!
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May 9, 2023 01:11
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Quotey posted:I bet there’s loads of friendly Gungans living in the seas of Kamino. Wesa cloning anchovies!
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May 9, 2023 02:36
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