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WampaLord posted:Okay, well Willa is a "fake leftist" according to you because she criticizes the Democratic party criticized it with a coherent factually correct list of reasons. Not a bunch of weird conspiracy theories and attacks. I would bet she even is a democrat and votes in primaries!
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Feb 16, 2018 21:38
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:criticized it with a coherent factually correct list of reasons. Not a bunch of weird conspiracy theories and attacks. I would bet she even is a democrat and votes in primaries! God, you're so loving dense.
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Feb 16, 2018 21:42
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WampaLord posted:God, you're so loving dense. The democrats are coming from inside your house
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Feb 16, 2018 21:45
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So do you agree with Willa Rogers' criticisms of the Democratic Party, or not.
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Feb 16, 2018 21:46
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The democrats are coming from inside your house And you'll go through life, happily content to yell at people who demand better things out of life, so assured in your rightness in the truth that the Democrats are the Good Guys and better things aren't possible. The very model of a modern major Democrat. VitalSigns posted:So do you agree with Willa Rogers' criticisms of the Democratic Party, or not. "I only agree with smart criticisms, but don't actually agree with the logical conclusions of those criticisms"
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Feb 16, 2018 21:46
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Nevvy Z posted:Because not all Democrats Which ones helped Corbyn, and how representative would you say Obama is of democrats
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Feb 16, 2018 21:54
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WampaLord posted:And you'll go through life, happily content to yell at people who demand better things out of life, so assured in your rightness in the truth that the Democrats are the Good Guys and better things aren't possible. You saying you aren’t a Democrat and don’t vote democratic and don’t participate in primaries? Or are you saying you are a democrat but somehow secretly you winked when you signed up so it doesn’t quite count?
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Feb 16, 2018 22:15
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Anyone who, given any other option, self identifies as a Democrat, should be hanged. Republicans should be shot.
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Feb 16, 2018 22:18
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:You saying you aren’t a Democrat and don’t vote democratic and don’t participate in primaries? Or are you saying you are a democrat but somehow secretly you winked when you signed up so it doesn’t quite count? I'm a registered Democrat, I voted for Democrats in 2016. Ironically, I did not participate in the primary because at the time I was perfectly happy with either Hillary or Bernie winning. Am I allowed to criticize the Dems for being bad or have I failed to meet your purity test? More importantly, do you actually agree with Willa's points or are you just saying "this is good criticism" as a way of not actually dealing with her argument you spineless gently caress?
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Feb 16, 2018 22:23
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Instant Sunrise posted:The Democratic Party lost shitloads of seats in 1966 after pushing through the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, Medicare, and Medicaid. Its worth noting that the Democratic Party lost that election because of their invasion of South Vietnam, not because of the VRA, Medicaid, etc
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Feb 16, 2018 22:28
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For the record I’m registered as a Democrat and I’ve voted in every election since I turned 18. I voted in the 2016 Primary for Bernie and the 2016 General for Hillary. But I don’t “identify” as a Democrat because the Democratic Party’s voter coalition is so goddamn broad that it’s ultimately meaningless as a form of personal identity.
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Feb 16, 2018 22:31
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I said I liked your sort of criticism? Since it had meaningful criticism about specific things in actual presented policies? I don't give a flying gently caress if you liked my criticism; I'm bothered by your lazy, dumb, reactive arguments based on nothing but Dem-fed lies to deflect attention from meaningful healthcare reform. Did you read the link I provided about your beloved public option? Here's the gist of it: quote:What would a public option do, for example, for the 28.6 million US residents who are uninsured? According to the Congressional Budget Office’s (CBO) 2013 scoring of a public option added to the ACA marketplaces, the answer is nothing: the public option, the CBO estimated, “would have minimal effects . . . on the number of people who would be uninsured.” As long as you and other Dems keep touting a non-solution like the public option to the healthcare crisis in which affordability precludes wellness--and since the ACA was passed, the number of Americans who defer seeking care because of out-of-pocket costs has steadily increased year after year--and keep making excuses rather than doing everything possible to work toward changing that system to a single-payer model (including putting relentless pressure on incumbent Dems), Dems will continue to lose voters and elections. It's in your best interests, if you want to see Democratiic majorities, to push them toward meaningful change instead of unconditionally stanning for them.
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Feb 16, 2018 22:44
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:criticized it with a coherent factually correct list of reasons. Not a bunch of weird conspiracy theories and attacks. I would bet she even is a democrat and votes in primaries! I'm not a Democrat but I usually vote in Democratic primaries for the best candidate. Then I vote for the best candidate in the general election, who most of the time is not a Democrat.
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Feb 16, 2018 22:47
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Instant Sunrise posted:The democrats were able to campaign on gay rights because groups like Code Pink held their feet to the fire on it. And in case you forgot, they were late as hell to the party on it. Obama didn't support gay marriage until 2012. In 2008 his campaign position was that marriage was between a man and a woman. In 2007 Barney Frank stabbed trans people in the back on ENDA and the democratic congress still wouldn't pass it when they had a majority. The thing that first really soured me on the Democratic Party as a whole was their total inaction on gay rights during 2009-2010. They completely stonewalled gay activists for two whole years, doing everything they could to stall even on no-brainer issues...and then after they lost the election, they easily rushed DADT repeal through in just a week or two. It was almost like they'd been purposely sitting on it for some reason. And then of course Obama just so happened to "evolve" on gay marriage right in the middle of his reelection campaign. It certainly lent itself to a cynical view of the Dems' commitment to gay issues, that's for sure.
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Feb 16, 2018 22:50
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:criticized it with a coherent factually correct list of reasons. Not a bunch of weird conspiracy theories and attacks. I would bet she even is a democrat and votes in primaries! Are you loving serious? Your beef is that we aren't communicating through bullet points, listicles, and charts like some kind of Vox article? How about haikus? Evil or evil By malice or decorum Shoot both at the Sun
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Feb 16, 2018 22:50
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Iron Twinkie posted:Are you loving serious? Your beef is that we aren't communicating through bullet points, listicles, and charts like some kind of Vox article? How about haikus?  of the forum
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Feb 16, 2018 22:59
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It helps to talk about lesser evils with specific examples of what defending the lesser evil looks like
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Feb 17, 2018 00:14
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"I want single payer so I don't have to raise money for my insulin (which I need to live) on GoFundMe" "Sir, your personal experiences are invaluable but ultimately worthless unless they're presented as a list of specific changes you would make to existing bills, or preferablay as a completely new bill that the Dems can push through congress. Vote blue!"
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Feb 17, 2018 04:03
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large adult son posted:"I want single payer so I don't have to raise money for my insulin (which I need to live) on GoFundMe" "Sir, i think you would be better served if we fund the military for tens of billions of dollars more than they were asking for actually" - A democratic neoliberal technocrat.
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Feb 17, 2018 04:08
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Mister Fister posted:A democratic neoliberal technocrat. I'm not going to beat the drum on the weird way people use the phrase neoliberal because whatever, close enough, but what do people even think "technocrat" is at this point? some weird "cell phones are bad and this has the word techno in it so it's bad"? Are people in this thread not technocrats? Like you are against climate scientists running climate stuff and economics experts setting economic policy and stuff? That seems really wild.
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Feb 17, 2018 04:28
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I'm not going to beat the drum on the weird way people use the phrase neoliberal because whatever, close enough, but what do people even think "technocrat" is at this point? some weird "cell phones are bad and this has the word techno in it so it's bad"? Are people in this thread not technocrats? Like you are against climate scientists running climate stuff and economics experts setting economic policy and stuff? That seems really wild. I think people in this thread would be very much against economic experts setting economic policy since the meaning of the phrase "economic expert" is flimsy at best. It might shock you that a lot of areas of governance aren't just math problems but moral/ethical problems that should be solved by experts but experts informed by an ideological perspective that you agree with, so policies like "trickle-down economics" and "lower taxes so job creators can create jobs" - both developed by "economic experts" - aren't deployed.
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Feb 17, 2018 06:02
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Health insurance and pharmaceutical industry experts wrote the ACA, so you know it's the best, because they are the experts
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Feb 17, 2018 06:04
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Is “people shouldn’t know things about the things they set policy on” seriously a thing people consider a leftist value?
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Feb 17, 2018 06:12
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Is “people shouldn’t know things about the things they set policy on” seriously a thing people consider a leftist value? No try again
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Feb 17, 2018 06:14
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VitalSigns posted:No try again Several people in this thread have used the word “technocrat” as a negative. I can’t tell if anyone actually thinks that or if it’s just people not liking the word techno and not looking up what the word refers to.
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Feb 17, 2018 06:19
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e: nvm
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Feb 17, 2018 06:19
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Several people in this thread have used the word “technocrat” as a negative. I can’t tell if anyone actually thinks that or if it’s just people not liking the word techno and not looking up what the word refers to. Which experts are listened to is highly subjective, and coincidentally when it comes to legislation that meaningfully interacts with corporate profits, the favored experts just so happen to have massive conflicts of interest or in the case of economics aren't expert at anything except bullshitting corporate propaganda.
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Feb 17, 2018 06:23
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Technocratic policies are when you get a bunch of establishment democrats and health insurance CEOs to come together and write this is lieu of an actual policy proposal:quote:The mission of United States of Care is to ensure that every single American has access to quality, affordable health care regardless of health status, social need, or income.
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Feb 17, 2018 07:44
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Instant Sunrise posted:Technocratic policies are when you get a bunch of establishment democrats and health insurance CEOs to come together and write this is lieu of an actual policy proposal: A politician or ceo making a policy decision is literally the opposite of a technocrat.
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Feb 17, 2018 07:52
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:A politician or ceo making a policy decision is literally the opposite of a technocrat. The technocrats don't seem to agree.
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Feb 17, 2018 08:21
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VitalSigns posted:Which experts are listened to is highly subjective, and coincidentally when it comes to legislation that meaningfully interacts with corporate profits, the favored experts just so happen to have massive conflicts of interest or in the case of economics aren't expert at anything except bullshitting corporate propaganda. while this is true a lot of the time too often ideologues on both the left and the right has taken this to mean that things like "numbers" and "reality" doesn't matter and proceed to enact fringe policies which drives whatever they are managing off a cliff i.e Boris Johnson's "people had enough of experts" prior to brexit Typo fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Feb 17, 2018 |
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Feb 17, 2018 09:34
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Neurolimal posted:I still want to know why there were democrats helping Theresa May in the UK over Corbyn, if they're supposed to be secret pragmatic leftists. Because in the context of Europe, the Democratic party is somewhere on the far right.
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Feb 17, 2018 12:45
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Typo posted:while this is true a lot of the time too often ideologues on both the left and the right has taken this to mean that things like "numbers" and "reality" doesn't matter and proceed to enact fringe policies which drives whatever they are managing off a cliff But the thing is it's not that people have had "enough" of experts, its the fact that experts have been so commonly surprised by things that they should have seen coming that all trust has been eroded in the idea of expertise. I mean look at banks and bankers, every time there is a run or a variety of things start going wrong it turns out the warning signs have been in place for years but the people whose job it was to pay attention didn't because they could get more money in the short term and because they are experts they will never see the inside of a prison cell. It becomes frustrating when you are significantly lower on the totem pole and you suddenly realise that the majority of people above you don't have a clue and "plans" are what people make instead of thinking.
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Feb 17, 2018 14:33
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Technocrats are a particular noxious breed of academic. Well bred, well credentialed, and utterly divorced from the context of the systems they deign to rule over. Having lived their whole lives in a protective layer of money, privilege, and the folds of their own rectum, that they have absolutely no reference point for the actual real world problems they are given the authority to solve. They're the type of well educated, dumb rear end in a top hat, freshly minted MBA that will try to apply six sigma to software development. In government, they are more interested making the organs of bureaucracy interact in interesting ways than actually helping people. They want the mother to prove she has skin in the game by solving their math problems, word puzzles, and riddles before she has a chance to save the life or her child and sole source of light in the miserable, ever present, crushing poverty of her life. They are the types that love lists, power point presentations, and charts and file peoples lived experiences under a back page labeled "externalities". They are the types that make me question whether I owe the tankies I've laughed at an apology and that the only thing that can solve these people and make them functioning members of society are Soviet style gulags and reeducation camps.
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Feb 17, 2018 16:01
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Iron Twinkie posted:Technocrats are a particular noxious breed of academic. Well bred, well credentialed, and utterly divorced from the context of the systems they deign to rule over. Having lived their whole lives in a protective layer of money, privilege, and the folds of their own rectum, that they have absolutely no reference point for the actual real world problems they are given the authority to solve. They're the type of well educated, dumb rear end in a top hat, freshly minted MBA that will try to apply six sigma to software development. In government, they are more interested making the organs of bureaucracy interact in interesting ways than actually helping people. They want the mother to prove she has skin in the game by solving their math problems, word puzzles, and riddles before she has a chance to save the life or her child and sole source of light in the miserable, ever present, crushing poverty of her life. They are the types that love lists, power point presentations, and charts and file peoples lived experiences under a back page labeled "externalities". They are the types that make me question whether I owe the tankies I've laughed at an apology and that the only thing that can solve these people and make them functioning members of society are Soviet style gulags and reeducation camps. Holyshit this.
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Feb 17, 2018 16:06
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Typo posted:while this is true a lot of the time too often ideologues on both the left and the right has taken this to mean that things like "numbers" and "reality" doesn't matter and proceed to enact fringe policies which drives whatever they are managing off a cliff The """experts""" who were (mis)managing the economy under New Dems, Republicans, Tories, and New Labour weren't expert at anything except using big words to shine the turd of neoliberal economic policy. If you send fake experts out to con the people, they may not be informed enough to know that those so-called experts were just a front for your plutocratic ideology, but they notice when your experts drive the economy off a cliff and then rob the poor to bail out the rich. If you don't want people to mistrust experts and flock to any old con man who at least tells them the truth that things are hosed up, maybe stop hoodwinking them with experts whose only expertise is parroting oligarch propaganda and insisting everything is fine when everyone outside of the richest 10% can see it's not?
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Feb 17, 2018 16:11
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Iron Twinkie posted:freshly minted MBA So like, specifically the opposite of someone who has experience or training in a field they are managing?
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Feb 17, 2018 16:21
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What about setting up a think tank full of has-been establishment democrats, health insurance CEOs, and republicans who have tried their damndest to block meaningful health care reform to find a solution to health care that can be anything but single-payer? These are people who have a vested interest in preventing meaningful change, surely we should consider them experts though?
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Feb 17, 2018 16:29
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:So like, specifically the opposite of someone who has experience or training in a field they are managing? Yes, and the perfectly soft, smooth Ivy league graduates that make up the wonk and lanyard class are in this category as well. The actual experts are the people that have been on the receiving end of societies problems, not some disconnected, lofty academics.
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Feb 17, 2018 16:36
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Instant Sunrise posted:The democrats were able to campaign on gay rights because groups like Code Pink held their feet to the fire on it. And in case you forgot, they were late as hell to the party on it. Obama didn't support gay marriage until 2012. In 2008 his campaign position was that marriage was between a man and a woman. But the most important thing to remember is that everyone went into 2008 thinking that W won 2004 because of gay marriage. That was the common wisdom and the amount of bans that were voted in were a good indication of that. The fact that California and New York both struggled to implement or not outright ban gay marriage was a sign of how perilous the topic was. Obama played the loving game. He said he was against gay marriage with a wink to anyone who bothered to do their homework. He slowly and methodically dismantled federal discrimination against gays while not touching the state bans. He had his Vice-President act as a canary in the coal mine to clear the way. Then he announced. There is a lot to criticize Obama for, but your original post is bullshit. Obama not only helped set the stage for a more gay friendly America, he completely neutered gay marriage as a reliable wedge issue for the Right. What Obama did for gays was one of the most decisive political victories in history.
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Feb 17, 2018 17:54
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