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multijoe posted:Also she's hot Fordola's hotter.
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# ? May 5, 2021 21:53 |
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# ? Jun 11, 2024 13:28 |
Eimi posted:Fordola's hotter. In terms of personality however, even leaving aside the war crimes, I look at Fordola and I see someone who will be constantly testing to see if you really care about them if you were in a relationship. Which would probably be made even worse by having surface-level telepathy. "I KNEW IT YOU SECRETLY loving HATED ME ALL ALONG!" &c.
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# ? May 5, 2021 22:08 |
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Nessus posted:Ultimately the appearance comes down to personal taste. Yeah a feeling I know well. Probably why I like her.
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# ? May 5, 2021 22:50 |
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i'm marrying aymeric and that's final
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# ? May 5, 2021 23:00 |
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you wlw's and straight men can fight over scraps while I feast with husbandos like Estinien and G'raha Tia Though I do realize with Estinien, Urianger, and Aymeric in my top slots I'm a complete elf fucker or a nerd fucker...elves are fuckin nerds in FF... I think that's why I love elves in this game tbh, they have the smugness of the traditional 'ageless paragon' fantasy elves but when you talk to them for five minutes you realize they come in about four discrete flavors of 'loving nerd' despite it.
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# ? May 5, 2021 23:09 |
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'we are an ancient race of brilliant scholars and warriors' 'yea, which flavor dork are you guys, the church nerds, the renfare nerds, the goth nerds, or the plant nerds?'
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# ? May 5, 2021 23:11 |
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# ? May 5, 2021 23:13 |
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cool urianger pic ps bring hilda back
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# ? May 5, 2021 23:30 |
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FFXIV Spoiler Thread: even leaving aside the war crimes,
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# ? May 6, 2021 00:18 |
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Badger of Basra posted:FFXIV Spoiler Thread: even leaving aside the war crimes, We do need a thread title -- putting aside anything else, it's been saying 5.4 for the past nearly month now of 5.5.
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# ? May 6, 2021 00:22 |
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My WoL is going to run away and get gay married to F'lhaminn and Mother Miounne personally
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# ? May 6, 2021 00:41 |
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Valleyant posted:If there one thing I hate about 14 is that it seems to be in love with trying to redeem war criminals. Sympathetic villains are fine and good but if emet turned out to be our very best bud next expac I'd do a 180 on my opinion of the character I've mentioned before, I think my big problem with the way XIV does sympathy plays for villains is that they pick villains with very distinct, often observed crimes, and sweeps them under the rug in the process. Like, random example, compare Emet with Magus from Chrono Trigger. Magus' crimes are honestly kind of vague and indistinct; we know he's waging war against man, but we don't really see why, or how, or what kind of damage he causes when doing so. Even so, when he does start getting his Vegeta treatment, Frog very directly challenges him on it as someone who has been hurt by Magus, and gets significant focus when he does so. Emet, meanwhile, has very specific crimes under his belt, being responsible for several genocides, as well as the crimes of both the Allagan and Garlean Empires, who together comprise about 90% of the sources of problems we've seen in FFXIV's world. We know the specifics and details of what he's done, because we've been going up against it basically all game. And as we get to know him, we learn that the reasons are very selfish and dismissive of the pain he's caused. Yet despite his crimes being much more serious, we don't get that Frog moment where someone takes him to task, center-stage; the most we get is part of an ensemble callout that never really gets acknowledged by the character or the greater game. Emet's the worst about it, but not the only one; Yotsuyu's previous sympathy play similarly never adequately acknowledged the whole 'she was still a tyrannical despot' thing (in fact, it paints calling her out on that as the problem when it does happen), and while Fordola's story certainly isn't done, it also only really grapples with her crimes from the perspective of how she feels about it, no direct voice is given to the victims. ...in fact, in retrospect also true of Ysayle, who I actually like. The pain of those she hurt is never addressed, only her pain in being deceived into doing it. Basically the only 'redeemed villain' who gets treated like their sins carry real weight to people they harmed in their redemption/sympathy story is Gaius. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 00:55 on May 6, 2021 |
# ? May 6, 2021 00:52 |
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Vanderdeath posted:My WoL is going to run away and get gay married to F'lhaminn and Mother Miounne personally Ah, I see you're a WoL of culture as well.
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# ? May 6, 2021 00:53 |
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I don't think 14 has successfully, or even tried to, redeem a single villain. Giving human motivations and sympathies to villains isn't redemption. Not executing a criminal on the spot isn't redemption either.
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# ? May 6, 2021 01:07 |
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Cleretic posted:I've mentioned before, I think my big problem with the way XIV does sympathy plays for villains is that they pick villains with very distinct, often observed crimes, and sweeps them under the rug in the process. I don't really think you know what "sweeps under the rug" means and you pretty bluntly are letting your emotions make you ignore a huge chunk of actual plot. There is literally no point where anything Emet Selch has done is swept under the rug. His entire arc is about the fact that he did horrible things and they never ever walk that back. Nobody 'takes him to task' because we literally reject his viewpoint and kill him. He does not get off scot free. He loving dies and in death he just pleads that his people not be forgotten. Likewise Yotsuyu's entire loving plot was about how she did terrible things and couldn't escape from that. The only potential way she had towards peace was literally losing all of her memories. Framing her actions as "motivated by the horrific cruelties she endured" is not sweeping them under the rug and she literally dies acting the villain because she has nothing else left. "No voice is given to the victims" ignores the scenes where that literally happens. What you want isn't that but just for characters who've done a bad thing to be murdered on the spot but only if you personally dislike them which is why you're not calling for the mass execution of the various Eorzean heads of state. This is also why people are so dismissive of your argument. You begin with "I don't like Emet Selch" and work backwards but then don't extend that same viewpoint to anyone else unless you also dislike them. Despite the fact we've literally had a major patch dedicated to the fact that Limsa is a hosed up town of literal pirates who are only now attempting to change their ways and address the wrongs they've done you're not calling for Merylwyb's execution because you're pretty bluntly not caring about the actual behavior of the characters, just if you personally don't like them. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:14 on May 6, 2021 |
# ? May 6, 2021 01:09 |
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I think Gaius and Fordola both count as redeemed. The trouble comes when people don't accept "redemption" unless it comes with lots of penetential suffering.
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# ? May 6, 2021 01:17 |
Cleretic posted:Emet's the worst about it, but not the only one; Yotsuyu's previous sympathy play similarly never adequately acknowledged the whole 'she was still a tyrannical despot' thing (in fact, it paints calling her out on that as the problem when it does happen), and while Fordola's story certainly isn't done, it also only really grapples with her crimes from the perspective of how she feels about it, no direct voice is given to the victims. What, in the context of the FFXIV environment, would be giving voice to the victims? Like it seems that the various crimes and horrors inflicted by these people do come up, there is just not a WOL-based oral/people's history project involving interviewing all the survivors and documenting grave sites. I do not think that I can blame the devs for not including a ton of that.
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# ? May 6, 2021 01:24 |
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Nessus posted:Yotsuyu was fixing to kill herself when her parents happened to wander into frame and say "Hey! You're still pretty hot! I bet we could sell you again!" so like, I'm not sure I would cast the 4.3 events as a "sympathy play" exactly. I mean that actually comprises a good chunk of the "go to a place and talk to someone" plotlines! Edit: The framing device for Heavensward is literally a book documenting the truth about the Dragonsong War
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# ? May 6, 2021 01:27 |
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Nessus posted:Mechanically, he probably could be either DPS or some kind of Dark Knight-esque tank if he's channeling Nidhogg's power.
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# ? May 6, 2021 01:28 |
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Rand Brittain posted:I think Gaius and Fordola both count as redeemed. I don't think you can be redeemed without contributing to a restorative justice imho. I have no idea how you'd make that happen ingame but I'm also very much not a writer.
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# ? May 6, 2021 01:29 |
ImpAtom posted:I mean that actually comprises a good chunk of the "go to a place and talk to someone" plotlines! Valleyant posted:I don't think you can be redeemed without contributing to a restorative justice imho. I have no idea how you'd make that happen ingame but I'm also very much not a writer.
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# ? May 6, 2021 01:30 |
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Valleyant posted:I don't think you can be redeemed without contributing to a restorative justice imho. I have no idea how you'd make that happen ingame but I'm also very much not a writer. The weapons arc basically ended on Gaius promising to do that, offscreen so that's one option
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# ? May 6, 2021 01:30 |
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Valleyant posted:I don't think you can be redeemed without contributing to a restorative justice imho. I have no idea how you'd make that happen ingame but I'm also very much not a writer. Well, I mean, they're both doing that, since they've both dedicated the remainder of their lives to public service as directed by their former enemies.
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# ? May 6, 2021 01:30 |
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Valleyant posted:I don't think you can be redeemed without contributing to a restorative justice imho. I have no idea how you'd make that happen ingame but I'm also very much not a writer. Fordola literally spends her days fighting dangerous demigods and Gaius has actively set out to work against his former country and help free countries he was responsible for helping conquer. That is like the actual definition. A lot of this argument seems to be tainted by the American Justice System mindset of "People need to be tortured and/or killed or else it isn't real punishment or restitution." You could throw Gaius in jail instead but it would literally do nothing but make it harder for the people he hurt to see some form of restitution. You have people he directly and overtly harmed who are watching over him and have expressed their clear intention to make sure he stays to his promises or dies trying. The fact he might not be miserable 24/7 isn't a flaw or means he isn't working towards redemption. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:34 on May 6, 2021 |
# ? May 6, 2021 01:31 |
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Ysale for that matter is probably as close as anyone else. Her actions at the end directly and crucially aided in the end of the Dragonsong War. If being instrumental in stopping the war she aided in counts as redemption, that's up there.
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# ? May 6, 2021 01:33 |
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also regardless of whether we sweep it under the rug or not we do literally murder both emet and elidibus
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# ? May 6, 2021 01:34 |
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cheetah7071 posted:The weapons arc basically ended on Gaius promising to do that, offscreen so that's one option I think most of it being offscreen is what leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
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# ? May 6, 2021 01:36 |
Orcs and Ostriches posted:Ysale for that matter is probably as close as anyone else. Her actions at the end directly and crucially aided in the end of the Dragonsong War. If being instrumental in stopping the war she aided in counts as redemption, that's up there.
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# ? May 6, 2021 01:36 |
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Valleyant posted:I think most of it being offscreen is what leaves a sour taste in my mouth. The entire Weapons arc is him actively working towards that while also seeing the personal and emotional cost of the actions he was responsible for. It is all onscreen. There's only so much time a story can dedicate to this kind of stuff but he got an entire plot arc dedicated entirely to him working towards freeing one of his most famous conquered lands and having it driven super-hard into his head that the suffering inflicted on people was his fault. I think that's important to stress. Gaius' plot is exactly what that looks like within the context of a fictional story. You're going to see the biggest and most dramatic moments because that is how storytelling functions.
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# ? May 6, 2021 01:40 |
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ImpAtom posted:The entire Weapons arc is him actively working towards that while also seeing the personal and emotional cost of the actions he was responsible for. It is all onscreen. Fair points all around. I honestly have no idea what would make me be happy about the portrayals other than just not attempting to redeem fascists. Ultimately, I have no idea what I want but I sure do love posting about it.
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# ? May 6, 2021 01:57 |
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personally i want to see a werlyttian call gaius an rear end in a top hat when he asks them to sign off on a purchase order for some construction supplies
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# ? May 6, 2021 01:57 |
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ImpAtom posted:The entire Weapons arc is him actively working towards that while also seeing the personal and emotional cost of the actions he was responsible for. It is all onscreen. Yeah, I point out Gaius as the only one that's done it right because it does everything it reasonably could. I'm still not sure how I feel about him, really, but his redemption was sold as hard as it could have been, and I'm willing to accept it. Crucially, it's not an entirely internal journey, either, he's directly faced with his wrongs and those hurt by it, and works to right them. I'm not actually a big fan of Merlwyb, despite what that one strawman post aimed at me seems to think (probably my least favorite city-state), but it did that right, too; Merlwyb actively reaches out, faces, and tries to right the specific sins that Limsa needs to answer for. Not a redemption story, but similarly it needed to do right by the victims, and did. In contrast, sure Emet dies, but he dies never having really acknowledged the horrible things he did, and the game continues to never bring the, you know, multiple genocides into the picture when talking about him. They never quite go to 'redeem' him, but I keep saying 'sympathy play' because that's what they do, demand we feel sympathetic towards him without properly bringing the people he hurt into the picture. My view is just that the people a villain is hurt by deserve to be given voice in the arcs humanizing them. The people that died under the Garlean regime are as human as the Garlean soldiers that committed it, after all.
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# ? May 6, 2021 02:05 |
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Cleretic posted:Yeah, I point out Gaius as the only one that's done it right because it does everything it reasonably could. I'm still not sure how I feel about him, really, but his redemption was sold as hard as it could have been, and I'm willing to accept it. Crucially, it's not an entirely internal journey, either, he's directly faced with his wrongs and those hurt by it, and works to right them. Whatever city state is your favorite has similar issues. So do Ishgard and anything overseas. When have the people who have been hurt not been given voice in the arcs humanizing them? Because it is part of both Emet Selch and Yotsuyu's plotlines. Like Emet Selch's entire thing is that the protagonist cast are people who he has hurt, both personally and as a whole. We see all the pain and suffering he caused and also all the pain and suffering he endured and at the end of the day that his hurts don't justify what he is doing and stop him. Everyone stands together to oppose him, they just don't dehumanize him in the process because dehumanizing people to justify hurting them is part of Emet Selch's flaws. Likewise Yotsuyu is embodied both by a man she hurt directly (Gotetsu) and the people who both hurt her and were hurt by her. (The people of Doma.) You get multiple different views and even Hein goes "She can only stay as long as she isn't who she was before." Gotetsu offers her kindness and forgiveness because he recognizes the hurts and because he himself is guilty of great crimes and seeks redemption. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:32 on May 6, 2021 |
# ? May 6, 2021 02:22 |
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ImpAtom posted:Whatever city state is your favorite has similar issues. So do Ishgard and anything overseas. My favorite city-state is Ul'Dah, because it actually has a whole top-to-bottom story about how it's a capitalist hellhole built on the backs of the poor with a political environment that can't be un-hosed. You show me a peaceful, sinless utopia in a game like this, and I'll show you an underdeveloped setting. And again, the victims of Emet's actions aren't being given sufficient voice in his, the extent of it is a part of an ensemble callout, none of which is addressed. Yotsuyu's victims do get voice when she goes to Namai, but I feel like their voicing that is portrayed as the problem when it happens. For all the spotlight Fordola's had, we haven't heard a peep yet from the people the Skulls actually oppressed.
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# ? May 6, 2021 02:38 |
Cleretic posted:My favorite city-state is Ul'Dah, because it actually has a whole top-to-bottom story about how it's a capitalist hellhole built on the backs of the poor with a political environment that can't be un-hosed. You show me a peaceful, sinless utopia in a game like this, and I'll show you an underdeveloped setting.
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# ? May 6, 2021 02:43 |
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Cleretic posted:My favorite city-state is Ul'Dah, because it actually has a whole top-to-bottom story about how it's a capitalist hellhole built on the backs of the poor with a political environment that can't be un-hosed. You show me a peaceful, sinless utopia in a game like this, and I'll show you an underdeveloped setting. Again, Emet Selch's actions are given specific direct callouts to the point where you are throwing his own words back in his face directly and you kill him. I'm not sure what victims you are trying to imply don't get to speak here but Emet Selch's victims get such a chance to speak that one of them literally speaks through the Warrior of Light. Like seriously Emet Selch is taken down and directly contradicted by A) The Warrior of Light. B) The soul of a man who lived a hundred years of miserable suffering after his tragic death C) People who have lived through and lost loved ones to the Ascian's plans or the aftereffects of those plants and D) A dude who literally travelled from the future where everything is terrible who also got shot and kidnapped by him, each of whom expresses reasons why they refuse to accept his viewpoint and shortly before he literally dies. I don't know what more you want. And nobody is expressing a problem with people being critical of Yotsuyu. Even Hein, who is probably the nicest dude in the Doman setting, straight-up acknowledges that the only reason he's giving her a chance is because the person who currently exists in Yotsuyu in body only and there's no justification to be made for hurting/killing someone just to make yourself feel better.
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# ? May 6, 2021 02:44 |
As for the people Fordola was stepping on, I think they do get a fair amount of face time in the form of the people who are too beat down to be easily roused by Lyse and in the aftermath of the successful uprising, who are all gathering up for a meeting. There's that one merchant guy who explicitly says to Fordola, "I won't forgive you (for what you have done), but I will thank you (because you saved us all from becoming tempered just now)". I think there are others too, he just stands out in my memory.
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# ? May 6, 2021 02:47 |
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Nessus posted:As for the people Fordola was stepping on, I think they do get a fair amount of face time in the form of the people who are too beat down to be easily roused by Lyse and in the aftermath of the successful uprising, who are all gathering up for a meeting. yea Fordola is pretty overtly a case of 'no we don't magically forget you were eagerly fighting to oppress us like yesterday, but we understand what drove you to that level of passion and are happy you're on the right side'. Like, she explicitly isn't even really fighting hard for redemption right now (though obviously that is her arc), she's mostly angry that the empire she served may have been destroyed by some magic space rear end in a top hat playing the epic long game and it turns out they were pulling the strings all the time. She straight up says she's not doing anything out of a newfound love of Ala Mhigo but to get answers for what happened in Garlemald and Lyse and crew are all 'fine whatever we don't really trust you anyway'. There's no magic redemption wand being waved, she's still an antagonistic character even right now! To the point where Estinien is the guy who has to tell her to maybe calm down a bit with the edgelord act.
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# ? May 6, 2021 03:07 |
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Valleyant posted:I don't think you can be redeemed without contributing to a restorative justice imho. I have no idea how you'd make that happen ingame but I'm also very much not a writer. Fordola is fighting as a soldier for the people she oppressed, basically a long-term penance until she dies atoning. Others are trying to convince her there's ways to atone without her death at the end of it, she's not buying that yet. Gaius is trying to help one of the countries he personally conquered throw off the Garleans. Though personally I would have preferred "I screwed up" coming out of his mouth before the very end of those quests instead of just blaming Ascians and being angry at the people who were "being Garleans wrong" in his eyes. What do you consider contributing to restorative justice?
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# ? May 6, 2021 03:22 |
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# ? Jun 11, 2024 13:28 |
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Giving a villain more compelling motivations than "Nya-ha-ha, I'm evil!" is not redemption, nor is making it a point to explain those motivations in a sympathetic or humanizing way. The best villains always have a little bit of "Ok, they DO make a good point right there..." even if you ultimately conclude that they're still wrong.
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# ? May 6, 2021 03:24 |