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Wheat Loaf posted:I reminded of the brief and strange period - just before Mutant Massacre - when the main Hellfire Club characters all traded in their usual evening attire for supervillain costumes? Yea, that's exactly what I was referencing. It's weird because they already had distinctive costumes, but decided to dump them for something even more gaudy. And Jean had the unenviable position that all women in silver age Marvel team books had, she was the Girl. Sue, Jean, Jan, Wanda, they all pretty much were "the girl". They had powers, but they never seemed to rise above the position on the team. I'd also accept Bennett doing a Jean solo series. There is a First Class series that is the Adventures of Jean and Wanda with Special Guest Natasha in her Batman 66 costume that I've been wanting to read, but I don't know what collection its in.
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Dec 22, 2015 19:24
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ImpAtom posted:Jean always felt kind of strangled by being a motivation more than a person to me. She has traits but I honestly couldn't tell you any strong opinions she holds beyond the fairly generic heroic superheroine opinions. For all that Young Jean Grey is kind of a prying jerk she at least seems to have something resembling traits, even if they're negative. Jean is the innocent girl next door who got really hot and in this case also super powerful. As someone who read her during the 90s her character mostly involved being the other half of Cyclops and the unrequited love of Wolverine. In both cases she was an object of their desire but for different reasons, but from her perspective she was the classic female torn between the bad boy and the boy scout(again not really a strong characterization but you have to remember this is the 90s so Wolverine being a killer with a mysterious past was still a new thing). Looking back it's definitely hard to pin down anything specific about her character because rather than doing a whole lot, she more just represented emotional aspects in the comics she was in. Usually innocence, later as the character grew she became more of a motherly figure to everyone and that shaped her for most of the 90s. To be fair it shaped Scott as well, he was written as your typical "go get 'em supportive father figure" but he had the 80s worth of good characterization to build on top of, then when Morrison came along he basically kept Jean in the same role and did more for Scott overall. I think really during the 90s readers were really into Cable, and later Nate Grey so Cyclops and Phoenix became the absentee parents everyone wished they had; incredibly supportive, strong, open and nurturing. Looking back it's kind of funny to think that Jean was around for 10+ years during the 90s and nobody did anything with her of note outside the "Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix" which were really just done to give Sinister and Cable/Stryfe more backstory. When the new X-Men series started off with Jean on her own, I was kind of excited because I thought that would have been a good chance to give her some back story. I also wouldn't have minded if they'd replaced 616 Young Jean with Ultimate Jean.
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Dec 22, 2015 19:25
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Yvonmukluk posted:Why did Aaron stop writing X-Men? Did Bendis just pull rank and say 'I want to write this now?' Were there some behind-the-scenes disagreements? If I remember correctly, Aaron said something at the time that he had too many projects going at once, so he dropped WatXM, and then put out Men of Wrath, Southern Bastards, the Star Wars book, and stayed on Thor. It more or less checks out.
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Dec 22, 2015 20:20
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Die Laughing posted:Or let's just chalk it up to Marvel trying to ruin the X-Men. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr57f3nitS0&t=6s TwoPair fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Dec 22, 2015 |
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Dec 22, 2015 21:44
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Endless Mike posted:I wish that comic didn't leave me feeling completely disinterested in reading any more. I felt completely the opposite. I went in expecting it to kind of be just ok and I ended up loving it.
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Dec 22, 2015 23:33
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I don't know how anyone could read Morrison's Jean Grey and come away thinking that she has no personality? In his run she became the de facto leader of the X-Men. She threw herself completely into the role of a teacher and activist who was, let's be real, pretty much single-handedly holding the school together through that era. She was the public face of the new X-status-quo and symbolized the thriving, beneficial power of the mutant race; the fact that she died at the end of the run was, in hindsight, a pretty fitting metaphor for the way that mutants would subsequently get treated. It's no coincidence that "Hope," the salvation of the mutant race, was modeled after Jean (and was in all likelihood just Jean's reincarnation until someone -- probably Bendis -- dashed that idea), and that even today young Jean is being touted as the thing that will hold the current X-Men together. At the same time Morrison-Jean was constantly struggling with the fact that her marriage was breaking apart for no fixable reason, despite the ironic fact that the more distant she and Scott became, the better of a character she was. It was a very succinct Morrison way to say "Look, I know you're super sad that things are changing, but things are better if they change." It was the same with her Phoenix powers; she became bit by bit more confident and powerful as she stopped holding back and became the person, woman, and mutant that she could really be, all the while that everyone around her was muttering and fussing that change is scary and that she's scary when she doesn't suppress herself to make other people happy (which wasn't even Morrison's original thing; this was happening to Jean all through the 90s as well). And on the other hand this made her really prideful and stubborn (and kind of a sarcastic little poo poo) as well. She kinda just saw things the way she wanted to see it and everyone else was just wrong 'cuz they're not as awesome as her, which led to her being unaware of plenty of problems happening right under her nose, which arguably led to her own demise. Compared to most other characters back then -- or even now -- Jean came across with fucktons more depth and personality. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Dec 23, 2015 |
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Dec 23, 2015 00:38
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I like how you Praddle on for three long paragraphs, and barely describe any actual character beyond the most generic traits.
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Dec 23, 2015 01:52
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You could say the same thing about any character. "Logan is sniktbub and is a samurai sometimes but also a beast." "Scott is uppity and always too serious. That and a middle age crisis turn him into Magneto for some reason" Morrison's Jean was just fine. She was a subtle but strong character, the one who got poo poo done when it needed to be done. She was what Claremont always tried to make Storm into except without any weird fetish going on.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:08
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I'm just glad they put Scott with Emma, so we could all escape from that joyless Scott/Jean relationship.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:14
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I do like how Jean in the New X-men has taken leadership over the time displaced team as Scott is too messed up about the whole thing. Die Laughing posted:I'm just glad they put Scott with Emma, so we could all escape from that joyless Scott/Jean relationship. Yep, i will always be Team Emma/Scott. BUt then i prefer Gwen and Peter.
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Dec 23, 2015 02:58
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For like 3/4ths of my life, Jean has been dead, and like Barry Allen I think she works better dead than alive. She's kind of this mythical mary sue to me, who was perfect, pure, but oh, she's dead but the impact she leaves is still there. Kind of like Laura Torch from Black Summer(which incidentally is one of my favorite comic books ever). Her use in Alias was masterful.
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Dec 23, 2015 03:08
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WickedHate posted:For like 3/4ths of my life, Jean has been dead, and like Barry Allen I think she works better dead than alive. She's kind of this mythical mary sue to me, who was perfect, pure, but oh, she's dead but the impact she leaves is still there. Kind of like Laura Torch from Black Summer(which incidentally is one of my favorite comic books ever). Her use in Alias was masterful. That's not what Mary Sue means.
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Dec 23, 2015 03:17
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I like Jean, but that's because she was in some of the first X-Men comics I read, and she seemed pretty kickass. I don't know. I miss her. The O5 one doesn't feel right to me.
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Dec 23, 2015 03:22
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Skwirl posted:That's not what Mary Sue means. It's a close enough casual shorthand for "girl without any flaws", don't nitpick. Probably Magic posted:The O5 one doesn't feel right to me. Poor replacements all around.
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Dec 23, 2015 03:29
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No it's not at all.
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Dec 23, 2015 03:35
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I think being a self insert for the author is a pretty drat important distinction for a Mary Sue.
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Dec 23, 2015 03:36
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Skwirl posted:I think being a self insert for the author is a pretty drat important distinction for a Mary Sue. Wikipedia actually says one is "often but not necessarily" a self insert which is about what I'd say too. Why go through the effort of this derail when the meaning of what I was saying was perfectly clear?
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Dec 23, 2015 03:39
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Even tvtropes can't agree on what Mary Sue means, arguing about the usage is not going to get us anywhere.
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Dec 23, 2015 03:39
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You were also wrong about the rest of it, if that helps.
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Dec 23, 2015 03:41
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Well, at this point you're arguing that the term is so nebulous as to be almost worthless as a descriptor, so why use it at all. I didn't know what you meant by Mary Sue in the first place, just that my understanding of the term didn't fit what you were saying.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:06
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Jean and Gwen Stacey are both those virginal girl next door, that are absolutely perfect for the male character to the point of their death being their only real source of drama. Gwen hating Spider-Man after her dad's death was pretty good though. And for the record: I do like Jean when she's not around Scott.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:25
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Die Laughing posted:Jean and Gwen Stacey are both those virginal girl next door, that are absolutely perfect for the male character to the point of their death being their only real source of drama. That's why I vastly prefer Emma and for Jean to just stay in the past.
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Dec 23, 2015 04:31
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Now we get a young woman living in the shadow of her
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Dec 23, 2015 05:40
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Lurdiak posted:Even tvtropes can't agree on what Mary Sue means, arguing about the usage is not going to get us anywhere. well, renowned movie and comic writer max landis says
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Dec 23, 2015 05:43
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Saoshyant posted:You could say the same thing about any character. In the hands of bad writers I agree, characters become one note sitcom characters and Morison fits that mold to a tee. Which is why I find using him as an example baffling. Plus he brought back the two most insufferable characters.Man New X-men was so bad.
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Dec 23, 2015 05:49
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CharlestheHammer posted:In the hands of bad writers I agree, characters become one note sitcom characters and Morison fits that mold to a tee. Which is why I find using him as an example baffling. Plus he brought back the two most insufferable characters.Man New X-men was so bad. What characters were those? You honestly are saying Morrison is a bad writer who terns characters into one note sitcom characters? New X-men is up there with the best X-men runs
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Dec 23, 2015 06:20
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Morrison is good with characters he likes, but he turns anyone he doesn't like into one note strawmen like Nazi Magneto.
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Dec 23, 2015 06:48
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Blockhouse posted:well, renowned movie and comic writer max landis says I am growing increasingly uninterested in anything Max Landis says that is not "Why did you throw me down those stairs?!"
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Dec 23, 2015 07:32
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bobkatt013 posted:What characters were those? Emma Frost and QQ loving loathe both of em. Also New X-men barely rates above Chuck Austin for me. I like some Morrison work, but a lot of it is trash as well.
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Dec 23, 2015 08:03
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CharlestheHammer posted:Emma Frost and QQ loving loathe both of em. Emma was in Generation x the month before New X-men and was acting the same basically and he created QQ
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Dec 23, 2015 08:54
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Okay
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Dec 23, 2015 09:19
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BrianWilly posted:I don't know how anyone could read Morrison's Jean Grey and come away thinking that she has no personality? drat, now I want to see this Jean Grey in comics. I have to track down the Morrison run at some point.
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Dec 23, 2015 11:02
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WickedHate posted:Morrison is good with characters he likes, but he turns anyone he doesn't like into one note strawmen like Nazi Magneto. No that was Xorn.
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Dec 23, 2015 14:54
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Actually, it was Xorn's twin brother.
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Dec 23, 2015 14:57
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He was also Xorn.
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Dec 23, 2015 14:58
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My favorite Jean Grey moment is when she and Scott finally hook up in the run up to Dark Phoenix. Scott's spent a decade convinced he can never know love because of the dangers of his awesome power and Jean just sort of turns his power off for him and flies him up onto a mesa or whatever for make-outs. It was both dark and kind of sweet, and an interesting look at the way gender politics of kiddie comics are effected by relative power level. It was also probably a fetish for Claremont, but you know. Claremont also did spend a little time developing the friendship between Jean and Storm in those backup stories they inserted when they were reprinting earlier Uncanny issues in the late 80s. But obviously she never got as developed as Storm did during that time, being dead.
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Dec 23, 2015 15:00
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Blockhouse posted:well, renowned movie and comic writer max landis says I'm sorry I tried to understand the rest of what might come after but it just turned into a long wet fart. That seems to happen to everything Max Landis says.Very odd.
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Dec 23, 2015 17:34
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Stagger_Lee posted:My favorite Jean Grey moment is when she and Scott finally hook up in the run up to Dark Phoenix. Scott's spent a decade convinced he can never know love because of the dangers of his awesome power and Jean just sort of turns his power off for him and flies him up onto a mesa or whatever for make-outs. It was both dark and kind of sweet, and an interesting look at the way gender politics of kiddie comics are effected by relative power level. Okay so I just started reading X-Men comics about a month ago and people keep talking about Claremont's fetishes and I kind of want to Google to find out what they mean...but I'm also afraid of what I'll find. Can someone explain this to me. Thanks in advance.
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Dec 23, 2015 18:32
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He likes bondage and people getting turned into babies.
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Dec 23, 2015 18:33
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Aphrodite posted:He likes bondage and people getting turned into babies.  Haven't gotten to much of that yet. Not sure if I want to now.
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Dec 23, 2015 18:38
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