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All this did is make me think about how stupid Man of Steel was. Superman: *Fights Zod like it's Goku vs Vegeta and completely loving destroys Metropolis, knocking over skyscrapers with thousands of people in them* Zod: I AM GOING TO MELT THIS FAMILY OF 4 Superman: Oh no, not those 4 people! That's 4 people too many! Yeaarrrghhhh *breaks Zod's neck* Superman: *never was established as really never wanting to kill anyone* WHAT HAVE I DONE, NOOOOO
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Apr 6, 2020 12:30
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Please don't start Snyderchat here, you don't know what you're doing. Theres a containment thread for it for a reason.
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Apr 6, 2020 12:34
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You can tell the chapter was good because it completely ruined this thread
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Apr 6, 2020 12:37
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Bro Dad posted:You can tell the chapter was good because it completely ruined this thread My take is that I think it was tragic all around because you can see Hawks trying to convince himself not to do it until his programming wins out- he clearly hesitates at what could've been a fatal moment a couple different times. Hawks was just as mentally trapped into his life as Twice was, which I think is the point that was being driven home.
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Apr 6, 2020 12:42
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chiasaur11 posted:Except that the horrible poo poo he did was when he gave up on being Number One himself. This is a good post because it's definitely what the story is trying to present. All of the analysis with regards to whether or not the authoritarian police state should be leading a violent superpowered no-knock raid on a terrorist cell brewing up a human weapon who can already level cities is kind of missing the more earnest point being made I think. I liked Twice, too, and Hawks killing him is absolutely furthering the failures of hero society but I reckon we'll see that addressed. Hawks is the type of hero Stain despised. It's not a mistake that Dabi is invoking his name again.
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Apr 6, 2020 12:50
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To be fair I'm not really sure what Hawks could have done to stop Twice at this point other then kill him, since apparently trying to cripple him with a bunch of non-lethal wounds mostly just slowed Twice down. Also, if you want to have the "sympathetic villains" argument - Toga is a character who is eminently sympathetic and has been failed by hero's society lack of reasonable access to counselling and therapy but I'm not about to call Deku an rear end in a top hat if he punches her when she's going at Ochako with a knife.
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Apr 6, 2020 13:02
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Ochako is going to kick Toga's rear end, or at least she should imo.
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Apr 6, 2020 13:05
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Probably would. If I remember right, their encounter at the summer camp had Uraraka yeet Toga into the dirt pretty easily.
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Apr 6, 2020 13:10
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Flesnolk posted:Probably would. If I remember right, their encounter at the summer camp had Uraraka yeet Toga into the dirt pretty easily. Toga's been training, she was kind of humiliating Deku in the license exam even though he has super speed and she doesn't. Also clearly the most ~Heroic thing in that situation would be to redeem her. Deku and Uraraka can't call themselves true heroes unless they both snog the yandere girl back to the light side.
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Apr 6, 2020 13:41
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Nephthys posted:Toga's been training, she was kind of humiliating Deku in the license exam even though he has super speed and she doesn't. She was also leveraging the fact that he is a teenage boy with sense of shame to distract him, and it's been noted she's really fast for someone whose power has nothing to do with physical capability, much like Eraserhead/Stain.
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Apr 6, 2020 14:13
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:Nah it still sounds dumb as poo poo even in that context Why, though? It's more or less in tune with what's going down with Kurogiri since the reveal of who/what he was. What, should Eraser/Cap have just shrugged their shoulders and just punched Kurogiri/the mutants instead? That seems like a really reductionist view of what counts as heroics. Like Eraser, when told what Kurogiri is, tries to get across to him. It even seems to work (?), to some degree. In the very least, it's had an effect. How's that any substantively different than the Cap story Mogul mentioned? Rhonne posted:Kurogiri was also already locked up and presented no immediate danger to innocent people at that point. I didn't even mention Twice so I'm not sure what your point is here. Like, what, is the criticism that Cap took time to try to reason with the mutants? So did Hawks with Twice so if that gets a pass so does this. KazigluBey fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Apr 6, 2020 |
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Apr 6, 2020 14:20
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Kurogiri was also already locked up and presented no immediate danger to innocent people at that point.
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Apr 6, 2020 14:41
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chiasaur11 posted:Except that the horrible poo poo he did was when he gave up on being Number One himself. This actually comes around to why All Might was simultaneously wonderful and terrible for hero society. These impossibly thorny situations - such as how to stop someone like Twice in this scenario without compromising your own morals - were easily bypassed by All Might because he was just so unbelievably powerful that he could make the impossible possible in a way that other heroes can't. When you're that powerful, you generally don't need to make sophie's choice - the example in story of this is the very beginning, when the slime dude grabbed Bakugo and the other heroes were powerless to both beat him and rescue Bakugo but All Might just kind of walked in and did everything instantly because he's that strong. It's way easier to treat the symptom(villains) than the disease(society has major flaws) when you have an invincible, omnipotent guardian angel who will pretty much just drop from the sky and solve every problem pretty much flawlessly almost immediately. But now the angel's gone and their solution is to try to find another angel.
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Apr 6, 2020 14:50
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It feels like a lot of this argument is people ascribing real-world morality and context incredibly literally and ignoring the actual point of the dilemma, which is mostly based in character work. This is pretty dead-on in regards to the manga's mindset.
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Apr 6, 2020 15:51
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why does "a villainous character who is likeable and sympathetic" break peoples brains so much
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Apr 6, 2020 16:15
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Are you talking about Twice or Hawks now? 
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Apr 6, 2020 16:30
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Well Hawks sure did some damage to Twice! A cha cha cha.
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Apr 6, 2020 17:05
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Viridiant posted:I hate MHA now because the main character isn't Mirko. Would've put Twice out harmlessly the second she got him between her thighs and we would not be having this conversation Farg posted:why does "a villainous character who is likeable and sympathetic" break peoples brains so much Because people are projecting their own lives and issues onto the underdog villains for better or for worse
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Apr 6, 2020 17:37
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See, my problem with this is that everyone is acting as if Hawks is some sort of black-hearted cold manipulator and murderer. He has things he cares about! He cares about Tokoyami, he genuinely looks up to Endeavor, and I always got the idea that his "a world where heroes don't have to work as hard" was a genuine desire and not a lie.
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Apr 6, 2020 17:45
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Fabricated posted:The discussion over if it was very heroic/good to kill poor Twice is pretty valid and I think the intent by Horikoshi WAS to make it seem like it was a sad thing and possibly didn't need to happen. You're debating questions posed by the story rather than complaining about it so yeah- it was a good chapter. It's really weird to call that "programming" as if he couldn't help himself. He exhausted every possible option he had, with no internal struggle, until his hand was forced. Because at the end of the day, in a world of imperfect people and imperfect solutions sometimes there's literally no recourse. Especially when it's a fictional situation specifically engineered to remove them. Like, I understand the agency that trained him is shady as hell but people are talking like he's a murderhobo child soldier in the vein of Raiden when there's literally no evidence of that. He's social, has a moral compass that would match that of most people's and has enough empathy to try and offer reformation to a known extreme-risk terrorist instead of murdering on the spot. If they didn't show flashbacks to his childhood, there'd be nothing to suggest he's off in some way. e: f;b
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Apr 6, 2020 17:52
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Farg posted:why does "a villainous character who is likeable and sympathetic" break peoples brains so much Well you make a bad guy the main character and people will root for them no matter what. See: Breaking Bad.
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Apr 6, 2020 18:00
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Junpei posted:See, my problem with this is that everyone is acting as if Hawks is some sort of black-hearted cold manipulator and murderer. He has things he cares about! He cares about Tokoyami, he genuinely looks up to Endeavor, and I always got the idea that his "a world where heroes don't have to work as hard" was a genuine desire and not a lie. Yeah, he basically flubbed his mission by surrendering to his personal human impulses and trying to reason with Twice - completely unsuccessfully, mind, but the attempt was made - instead of simply knocking his rear end out and/or killing him the moment they were alone, which is probably what a completely cold hearted manipulator/murderer would do. The whole situation going tits up is specifically because Hawks acted like a human being instead of Winter Soldier, basically.
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Apr 6, 2020 18:13
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^^^ If Hawks had just knocked Twice out from behind and flown off with him the moment Cementoss opened the building we wouldn't be having this discussionJunpei posted:I always got the idea that his "a world where heroes don't have to work as hard" was a genuine desire and not a lie. I agree, especially considering the kind of things 'working hard' entails for Hawks. I'll change my tune concerning Hawks as soon as Best Jeanist shows up alive and well.
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Apr 6, 2020 18:19
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ZiegeDame posted:^^^ If Hawks had just knocked Twice out from behind and flown off with him the moment Cementoss opened the building we wouldn't be having this discussion Yeah, that's the point? Hawks formed a rapport with Twice and sorta-befriended him in their time together, which led him to try to reason with Twice instead of cold-cocking his sorta-friend. It's clear proof that Hawks isn't some kind of emotionless government agent.
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Apr 6, 2020 18:41
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Kanos posted:Yeah, that's the point? Hawks formed a rapport with Twice and sorta-befriended him in their time together, which led him to try to reason with Twice instead of cold-cocking his sorta-friend. It's clear proof that Hawks isn't some kind of emotionless government agent. So Hawks completely failed to understand Twice's personality, and so Twice paid the ultimate price for Hawks's incompetence. Doesn't really do Hawks any favors when it comes to the killer-cop comparison.
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Apr 6, 2020 19:43
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If Jeanist is still alive that means Dabi could’ve prevented all of this by just doing his job.
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Apr 6, 2020 19:43
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Just think of how much better a place the world would be if everyone suffering from mental health issues was given a nuke
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Apr 6, 2020 20:01
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killer-cops don't normally try to de-escalate a situation or use violence as a last resort
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Apr 6, 2020 20:02
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ZiegeDame posted:So Hawks completely failed to understand Twice's personality, and so Twice paid the ultimate price for Hawks's incompetence. Doesn't really do Hawks any favors when it comes to the killer-cop comparison. this is a weird take that pretends twice has no agency here twice made the decisions he made, and while the society he was a part of can be blamed to an extent, in the end he 'paid the ultimate price' because he himself decided to risk his life saving the people he cares about
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Apr 6, 2020 20:59
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Truly the only correct move for society is to allow the mentally ill to use their nukes freely as penance for not being a perfect, omniscient, omnipotent utopia and (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 6, 2020 21:13
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Nonexistence posted:Truly the only correct move for society is to allow the mentally ill to use their nukes freely as penance for not being a perfect, omniscient, omnipotent utopia and it's weird that people can read a manga that consistently highlights the ways in which the current society is flawed and fails people for so long and still make these weird hyperbolic strawmen that no one in the thread is remotely saying
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Apr 6, 2020 21:18
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Boy these “mentally ill people with nukes” takes make me uncomfortable.
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Apr 6, 2020 21:22
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thetoughestbean posted:Boy these “mentally ill people with nukes” takes make me uncomfortable. but enough about the united states government! heyo!
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Apr 6, 2020 21:48
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Brother Entropy posted:it's weird that people can read a manga that consistently highlights the ways in which the current society is flawed and fails people for so long and still make these weird hyperbolic strawmen that no one in the thread is remotely saying No one but a third of the posts since the chapter dropped. Go back and read posts by SyntheticPolygon, Dr SubterFuge, Mystic Mongol, Shere, Babysitter Super Sleuth, and ZiegeDame over the last few pages if you want specificity.
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Apr 6, 2020 21:49
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If two Twice clones were stuck on the moon and one Twice clone killed the other Twice clone, would that be hosed up?
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Apr 6, 2020 21:50
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Nonexistence posted:No one but a third of the posts since the chapter dropped. Go back and read posts by SyntheticPolygon, Dr SubterFuge, Mystic Mongol, Shere, Babysitter Super Sleuth, and ZiegeDame over the last few pages if you want specificity. We all read those posts it's you being the weird brain here, friend!. Also really what's a girl gotta do to get a shoutout like this? Am I nothing to you?
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Apr 6, 2020 21:54
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The society is at fault for letting Twice slip through the cracks to get to where he was. Hawks was still 100% correct and justified in killing him and had no reasonable way to avoid killing him without catastrophic consequences, which didn't stop him from trying to talk him down and subdue him nonlethally anyways. People are trying to paint Hawks as some kind of sociopathic killer despite this not being even remotely supported by the story or character. I feel like half the people here are just ignoring the actual text to make their flimsy points about how this was some huge moral failure for hawks when he had basically zero morally clean options left to him. Comparing this situation to real life police brutality/murder is in incredibly poor taste and isn't even a remotely accurate comparison considering that the victims of police brutality in reality are often innocent and unarmed, or are guilty of a minor nonviolent offense, or are armed but compliant with police, or even if they are violent and armed do not possess any kind of power on the same order of magnitude as Twice because it's real life and not a fictional superhero story, whereas Twice was actively choosing to fight and could be considered a weapon of mass destruction even while restrained and unarmed. I don't agree with the mentally ill people with nukes comparison either. Twice was mentally ill for sure, but he was lucid and knew exactly what his choices meant and had every intention to follow through with them. tweet my meat fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Apr 6, 2020 |
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Apr 6, 2020 22:24
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Also Mirko is still really good and the doctor's overblown reactions every time the heroes break through his defenses are loving amazing.
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Apr 6, 2020 22:31
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tweet my meat posted:Also Mirko is still really good and the doctor's overblown reactions every time the heroes break through his defenses are loving amazing. The rainbow sparkles snot was really something special.
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Apr 6, 2020 22:51
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tweet my meat posted:Also Mirko is still really good and the doctor's overblown reactions every time the heroes break through his defenses are loving amazing. I'd have the same facial expressions if I ever met Mirko just not out of fear
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Apr 6, 2020 22:52
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