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While the quality does vary I have loved all the siege books tbh. It's the scale of it all for me. The stupid big scale of 40k is one of my favorite things and they really came through with it for the siege. I actually can't think of any scifi/fantasy I've ever read that had a set piece as big as the siege.
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Jul 19, 2023 02:19
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Biplane posted:Mortis was not great, but solar war and lost and the damned were both good. Heap your scorn on me; God gives his toughest soldiers the hardest battles Solar War was okay, lost and the damned could have been better, but Mortis was genuinely a bad book.
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Jul 19, 2023 02:20
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I remember one (1) thing that happened in solar war pluto exploded which puts it above lost and the damned for me, a book I definitely read but about which i remember nothing. the first wall I vaguely remember a sense of creeping malaise as I realized it wasn’t going to get better.
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Jul 19, 2023 02:24
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Lost and the Damned has those hilarious Chaos Primarch scenes though. Like, full on Skeletor plus henchmen nonsense.
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Jul 19, 2023 02:25
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I wouldn't skip any of them imo, Mortis was the hardest to get through for me, not terrible but I think the book would be better without any of the titan stuff honestly, that was the main part of the book and he made it boring but all the other side stories with the people manning the wall were pretty cool.
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Jul 19, 2023 02:32
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Abnett is the best when there are no primarchs in the story Imho
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Jul 19, 2023 04:35
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100% Mortis was the worst. Massive Titans breaching the last bastions of the Imperium . . . made boring as hell, somehow.
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Jul 19, 2023 09:03
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The cover art was great though
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Jul 19, 2023 14:09
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The bit in EoE where the titans are climing the ruins of the wall is awesome. Fire the Ursus Claw 
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Jul 19, 2023 14:17
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:The bit in EoE where the titans are climing the ruins of the wall is awesome. 
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Jul 19, 2023 20:50
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Mortis also suffers from everyone (And I mean EVERYONE) going "Why is morale so low? Why are people committing suicide? Why does everyone have a constant feeling of malaise?" As if they haven't been fighting a war that includes literal demons and magic for the better part of a few months.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:59
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Pron on VHS posted:I liked The Unremembered Empire It's not -terrible-, just very mediocre. Nothing has room to breathe; you'll get someone thinking "I hope X doesn't happen." and the very next chapter will be "X has happened, ohnoes!", characters become flat, and some very silly action scenes get tossed in so people don't get antsy. I love how the setting can't ever really pin down just how strong/killable a Primarch is. It's a tough job, granted. At times they will confidently wade into 200 enemies and come out unscathed to no one's surprise, at others a 10-guy unit of Alpha Legion with basic boltguns are supposed to be a skin-of-the-teeth five alarm dangerous death threat. It gets funnier given how a big dramatic point in Betrayer was that Russ dared Angron into charging his vanguard alone, which was supposedly a sure deathtrap and proof that Angron was too damaged...when doing that is basically the primarch strategy 8 out of 10 times. Corax does it in the dropsite massacre, Guilliman does it in ruinstorm, Sanguinius does it all through the Siege of Terra, and Dorn's big regret in the end was that he WANTED to do it but couldn't.
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Jul 19, 2023 21:49
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Sephyr posted:I love how the setting can't ever really pin down just how strong/killable a Primarch is. It's a tough job, granted. At times they will confidently wade into 200 enemies and come out unscathed to no one's surprise, at others a 10-guy unit of Alpha Legion with basic boltguns are supposed to be a skin-of-the-teeth five alarm dangerous death threat. Guilliman is unarmed and, more importantly, unarmoured when the Alpha team get the drop on him. And he STILL kills all of them, then recovers from injuries that would be have been fatal to anyone else. But yeah, tbh you're right. They're as strong or as weak as the plot demands.
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Jul 19, 2023 22:57
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euphronius posted:The Horus Heresy is the best when there are no primarchs in the story
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Jul 19, 2023 23:06
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Sephyr posted:I love how the setting can't ever really pin down just how strong/killable a Primarch is. It's a tough job, granted. At times they will confidently wade into 200 enemies and come out unscathed to no one's surprise, at others a 10-guy unit of Alpha Legion with basic boltguns are supposed to be a skin-of-the-teeth five alarm dangerous death threat. I think the bit you're referring to is Abnett sort of playing with the much-asked question in this sort of comic-book serial fiction, "could we win this incredibly bombastic, drawn out, visually spectacular war by just shooting the protagonist in the head when he's not expecting it". And while it's a spirited attempt to inject some tension, ultimately the answer is you just can't kill a Primarch except with another Primarch in a suitably dramatic fashion at an appropriately climactic moment, because the plot demands it. I'm definitely in the camp that wonders why capital ships never explode catastrophically in space battles, or get lost in the warp, when anyone too important is on board. But I accept that's not the point of these books.
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Jul 20, 2023 00:33
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It may not be possible to kill a Primarch in a way that isn't terribly dramatic. They're warp beings of a higher order than even the mightiest greater daemons, incarnated into bodies created with the most terrible genetic sciences of humanity's height by its greatest scientist and sorcerer.
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Jul 20, 2023 00:40
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Genghis Cohen posted:I think the bit you're referring to is Abnett sort of playing with the much-asked question in this sort of comic-book serial fiction, "could we win this incredibly bombastic, drawn out, visually spectacular war by just shooting the protagonist in the head when he's not expecting it". And while it's a spirited attempt to inject some tension, ultimately the answer is you just can't kill a Primarch except with another Primarch in a suitably dramatic fashion at an appropriately climactic moment, because the plot demands it. If I ever wrote a 40k short story/whatever I'd have the main character die from a botched droppod launch or boarding torpedo or misaimed teleport or random warp navigation error or similar and then the rest of the story is from the POV of someone else.
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Jul 20, 2023 01:38
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The height of Genetic Mastery the Emperor achieved was discovering the gene for plot armor.
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Jul 20, 2023 02:11
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the way the warp works actually provides a fairly convincing watsonian explanation for primarchs’ plot armor. the warp basically runs on Terry Pratchett’s narrativium. Things happen because a sufficiently large number of thinking beings believe that they will or should. So you get things like Rogal Dorn beating the holy hell out of daemon Fulgrim while defending an Imperial Palace wall section, because Dorn’s whole deal is defending a wall he raised. At that moment, in that context, it’s likely that none of his brothers (save maybe Horus) could have beaten him.
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Jul 20, 2023 02:23
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This is also a point of the Horus Heresy - Horus can't virus bomb Terra into nothing, because the 40k universe (and importantly, the Chaos Gods) are effectively slaves to symbolism. An attempt to simply annihilate the Emperor would result in the Gods themselves moving against him. Horus has, and needs to cast Him down, destroy His works and let him see it, or the universe itself wouldn't let it happen. There's even a faction in Inquisitor that understands this, and tried to intentionally engineer dramatically significant moments for Chaos to nearly succeed then fail as a way to protect the broader Imperium. And what's funny about that is they're seen as immoral, insane radicals, whilst being entirely correct. (And now I want to write a 40k book on this short premise, poo poo.)
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Jul 20, 2023 04:36
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:the way the warp works actually provides a fairly convincing watsonian explanation for primarchs’ plot armor. the warp basically runs on Terry Pratchett’s narrativium. Things happen because a sufficiently large number of thinking beings believe that they will or should. So you get things like Rogal Dorn beating the holy hell out of daemon Fulgrim while defending an Imperial Palace wall section, because Dorn’s whole deal is defending a wall he raised. At that moment, in that context, it’s likely that none of his brothers (save maybe Horus) could have beaten him. That's a fun theory, but demonstrably wrong since the Khan forces a tie, but morally and tactically wins over Mortarion by just standing there and taking the punishment, literally stealing his brother's hat. I don't really mind as long as the writing is good, or at least fun. A talented enough writer can make any primarch beat any other by fiddling with circumstances, motivation, or other factors, and make it plausible (and with luck, thrilling). Mostly, it comes down to making the stakes feel real. We've had a decent idea on who lives and who dies in the HH series, but the best books remind us that even if a character doesn't croak, doesn't mean he can't lose his honor, his mind, his friends or his dignity. I knew Lorgar wasn't going to die in Betrayer, but hot drat, it was darkly inspiring seeing him push through being blasted by titans, decked by Guilliman, then double-ambushed by a Contemptor and the whole surviving WE librarius, all for the 'victory' of saving a brother in the foulest way possible and losing his truest son.
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Jul 20, 2023 04:47
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Genghis Cohen posted:I'm definitely in the camp that wonders why capital ships never explode catastrophically in space battles, or get lost in the warp, when anyone too important is on board. But I accept that's not the point of these books.
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Jul 20, 2023 05:56
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Just re-read the End and the Death, and the whole thing reads like a quasi religious text. It's an absolute masterpiece and evidence of what Abnett can do when he's unleashed. I gotta say though the representation of big E is a lot different - and more sympathetic- than what I expected, especially in how Malcador sees Him. Its little things like how they share a bond that seems like genuine human friendship, thinking back to sitting around and discussing and chatting almost like equals. There's also stuff like how the Malcador notes that even while sat on the throne absolutely absorbed in his struggle with the warp the Emperor still soothes a soldier's fears here, grants rest and assurance to someone else there. There's even some genuine affection towards the four primarchs who came through to the end . No major spoilers, but better safe than sorry. There's just a lot of suggestions of something like human emotions, even fears and fellow feeling. Sure, you can say that it's all manipulation in the service of making the forces protecting the ultimate sanctum last just that second longer and preserving Himself that much longer, but I dunno. I feel like Abnett's take on the big guy is a lot more complicated and nuanced than what's come before. I kinda felt for Him, to be honest, while reading this.
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Jul 20, 2023 09:58
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I think that the portrayal of the Emperor is affected by whoever is encountering him, and I took the more human facets in EatD as being reflections of Malcador's own humanity.
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Jul 20, 2023 10:25
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:I think that the portrayal of the Emperor is affected by whoever is encountering him. That's explicitly true, Master of Mankind being the book where it is most evident. Sanguinius in a flashback during Echoes of Eternity can at least partially perceive the different "interpretations" of the Emperor simultaneously. He "hears" the Emperor referring to Sanguinius as his son and referring to him as a weapon and a tool at the same time, while referring to Himself as Sanguinius' father/creator/master. He also senses different, partly contradictory emotions from the Emperor.
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Jul 20, 2023 12:49
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:I think that the portrayal of the Emperor is affected by whoever is encountering him, and I took the more human facets in EatD as being reflections of Malcador's own humanity. See, I'd expect Malcador to be able to see through something like that if anyone could. If we take Malcadors POV stuff as 'real' he definitely thinks big E is his friend, but like you say, it could all just be him believing what he's shown.
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Jul 20, 2023 13:13
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Nuclear War posted:See, I'd expect Malcador to be able to see through something like that if anyone could. If we take Malcadors POV stuff as 'real' he definitely thinks big E is his friend, but like you say, it could all just be him believing what he's shown. I think Malcador believes he's the only one to see through the mask and know the Emperor for what he truly is. Whether that is true or not, well...
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Jul 20, 2023 13:14
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yep. In the end, I guess the glamour worked on me as well cause I definitely sympathised through EatD
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Jul 20, 2023 13:24
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wiegieman posted:It may not be possible to kill a Primarch in a way that isn't terribly dramatic. They're warp beings of a higher order than even the mightiest greater daemons, incarnated into bodies created with the most terrible genetic sciences of humanity's height by its greatest scientist and sorcerer. yeah the warp works off tropes and poo poo. its why Chaos Lord Girmly facefuckus of the black legion is a hubristic gently caress, the warp might like to play with him and have him be drilled in the head at the height of his climb to power because some Rookie guardsman gets a lucky shot. you can't kill primarchs like that because the warp would never allow it. Warden posted:I think Malcador believes he's the only one to see through the mask and know the Emperor for what he truly is. i think thats Big E's trick, he makes everyone think they can see through his mask. I will be overly sappy and say i do think he is genuinly friends with malcador and likes some of his sons even if he views them as tools. that doesnt make him a good dad though.
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Jul 20, 2023 21:35
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Malcador is sympathetic and a good guy. The Emperor personally caused every bad thing that happened to the Imperium by being a hubristic moron and deserves way, way worse than he got. On a different topic, I read the book where Lion El'Johnson comes back, and apparently him and his Fallen knights of the round eventually link back up with the main plot and make contact with the Ultramarines and Dark Angels? What books do I need to read to follow that plot thread, it sounds cool and I want to see what happens.
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Jul 21, 2023 00:22
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CapnAndy posted:Malcador is sympathetic and a good guy. The Emperor personally caused every bad thing that happened to the Imperium by being a hubristic moron and deserves way, way worse than he got. That's all that is out so far besides the fifth Arks of Omen book which covers his fight with Angron along with ultramarine and dark angels who he snubs.
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Jul 21, 2023 00:44
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Okay I finished all the Dark Coil. There is a lot to try to connect on a reread, but that's exactly what I'm doing.  At the same time, this kind of quasi-serialization, the level of suspense, the extremely cool details to notice and connect, and the highly creative way of incorporating the fantastical elements of the setting to create horror -- what other writers have similar styles to Peter Fehervari? Not just BL. I've got a craving for this kind of stuff now.
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Jul 21, 2023 02:11
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Sephyr posted:That's a fun theory, but demonstrably wrong since the Khan forces a tie, but morally and tactically wins over Mortarion by just standing there and taking the punishment, literally stealing his brother's hat. I think that scene proves my point. Mortarion as a daemon is a lord of entropy. All things trend to zero, all hopes end in despair. He has traded joy and pleasure for eternal, droning monotony. You can batter yourself against his ramparts endlessly and never break through. The only way to beat him is to do something unexpected, something out of character. When you act against your nature, especially when you do so with joy and in full knowledge that you will die, you are his complete antithesis, and that is how you beat him.
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Jul 21, 2023 02:18
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:I think that scene proves my point. Mortarion as a daemon is a lord of entropy. All things trend to zero, all hopes end in despair. He has traded joy and pleasure for eternal, droning monotony. But that runs against Nurgle. Nurgle is entropy AND rebirth. He's the black mirror of a traditional Nature Goddess. This is why he has tension with Tzeentch, because Tzeentch is Change, but their remits overlap. I mean, we can argue that Mortarion is just hosed, and he's 'just' despair/nihilism - It suits his character.
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Jul 21, 2023 02:35
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I just finished the Leviathan omnibus. I could read more stories about Tyranids doing their thing or one of the not-franchise pulp books on my shelf. Pretend I just discovered 40k, what else is there with 'nids?
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Jul 21, 2023 02:59
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chainchompz posted:I just finished the Leviathan omnibus. I could read more stories about Tyranids doing their thing or one of the not-franchise pulp books on my shelf. Pretend I just discovered 40k, what else is there with 'nids? Technically they charge for this now, but it used to be free, and it's the best short story with Tyranids. I was gonna post the link but, just google it, the first option is a PDF of it The Fall of Malvolion
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Jul 21, 2023 03:45
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I'm starting to warm to Tyranids. More than Chaos and Necrons, they embody that specifically Lovecraft brand of cosmic horror of highly elaborate monsters that are absolutely inhuman and regard our whole species as, at most, a nice dinner worth going out of their way for, and this is the only motivation of theirs that we're capable of perceiving, leaving anything else that drives them a complete unknown that's impossible to resolve. Also with Genestealers they can have a creepy alien species-takeover angle that mostly avoids the racist miscegenation subtext. Mazed fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Jul 21, 2023 |
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Jul 21, 2023 04:16
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The new Leviathan book that just came out (not to be confused with the Leviathan omnibus you are talking about) was pretty good and features some of the new tyranid subtypes and tactics in 10th edition.
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Jul 21, 2023 06:34
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:I think that scene proves my point. Mortarion as a daemon is a lord of entropy. All things trend to zero, all hopes end in despair. He has traded joy and pleasure for eternal, droning monotony. Such a wonderful line from Jaghatai: "My endurance is... superior."
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Jul 21, 2023 07:18
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chainchompz posted:I just finished the Leviathan omnibus. I could read more stories about Tyranids doing their thing or one of the not-franchise pulp books on my shelf. Pretend I just discovered 40k, what else is there with 'nids? Day Of Ascension is good, but that's about a Genestealer Cult on a Mechanicus world. So light on actual Tyranid stuff.
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Jul 21, 2023 07:29
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