|
Theswarms posted:Loop Hero is actually Skyward Collapse as an RPG. you're a criminal. and yeah, loop hero has three? elements of rng usage 1) road shape 2) equipment drops 3) card drops 4) combat 3 is mitigatable with your deck selection but remains extremely determnistic, 1 is nearly meaningless it seems? and 2 is the bulk of it. 4 seems normalizable over the long stretch, but honestly a lucky stun/evade is probably fate altering in a boss fight. not much about the game suggests roguelike to me.
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2021 20:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 12, 2024 06:26 |
|
|
Theswarms posted:Loop Hero is actually Skyward Collapse as an RPG. Oh wow I haven't thought about Skyward Collapse in ages. I used to play so many janky Arcen games, I hope they manage to survive off AI War 2 and go on to make many more interesting but kind of bad games. Anyways yeah Loop Hero seems wholly not a roguelike, it does a great job of pulling in many different genres and mashing them up to the point where it's hard to categorize. I think this helps out with its success too, since people can't quickly file it away and the more aspects of it you see the more chance that one of them might catch your interest. Also there's no way it's an idle game, if it were an idle game I'd be steadily progressing instead of completely failing 75% of my runs.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2021 20:52
|
|
|
Tight U-turns on the road are generally a little better. Lets you use a single card on 2 or 3 tiles, which doesn't matter much for the spawners but helps with the modifiers.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2021 20:57
|
|
|
Phigs posted:You know what I mean though. Procedural generation is inferior to (competently) hand-crafted content and has to make up for it by making replaying a game/sections of a game more compelling. If the game is just a quick run-through-and-done it would almost always be better without the procedural generation. Do any roguelikes have procedural generation using hand crafted content? Is that a thing? Like, pre-crafted layouts but semi randomly arranged? Or did I just stumble across a non-secret and that's how all of the procedural ones work?
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2021 21:06
|
|
|
Ambaire posted:Do any roguelikes have procedural generation using hand crafted content? Is that a thing? Like, pre-crafted layouts but semi randomly arranged? Or did I just stumble across a non-secret and that's how all of the procedural ones work? No Wave fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Mar 9, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2021 21:08
|
|
|
Ambaire posted:Do any roguelikes have procedural generation using hand crafted content? Is that a thing? Like, pre-crafted layouts but semi randomly arranged? Or did I just stumble across a non-secret and that's how all of the procedural ones work? That's how most of them work. Chunks of level pre-built and arranged the create new combinations. Full procedural is generally limited to games entirely lacking in an action element and often even then you can find games that have patterns for special things that tend to crop up.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2021 21:10
|
|
|
Ambaire posted:Do any roguelikes have procedural generation using hand crafted content? Is that a thing? Like, pre-crafted layouts but semi randomly arranged? Or did I just stumble across a non-secret and that's how all of the procedural ones work? Crawl is a pretty basic and solid example of how it's done. You have a randomly generated overall structure that is peppered with pre-designed rooms and vaults, giving you a fair bit of RNG to keep you on your toes, but well-designed challenges to overcome throughout. This particular approach harkens back to the lineage of the *bands, and maybe starting with Moria. There are lots of variations on this approach for games that use procgen as a main feature of the gameplay. If you look at a game like Diablo 3, all the sections and chunks are predefined, and then fitted together in a modular fashion, with particular groups and uniques thrown in afterwards. In contrast to Crawl's design, this is far less interesting because there's nothing particularly rich about any of these chunks, so you're just spinning through a featureless maze cutting up mobs. But that's fine, Diablo 3 is an action RPG, it's just the point that technically it uses a similar approach of presented hand-crafted elements in a random way, except incredibly badly. Then you have something like ADOM, which has a fixed, hand crafted overworld and certain levels that follow a very strict, designed pattern (this may be the sort of thing that Nethack does), but the 'non-important' levels are mostly completely RNG room-corridor layouts with not much going on. I.e. there's a further degree of seperation between what is crafted and what is not. And then you can just have something like Dwarf Fortress Adventure Mode which as far as I can tell, tries to RNG everything to a degree of versimilitude that it could *seem* hand-crafted. I'm thinking in particular about the settlement generation, but I haven't played Adventure Mode in a while so maybe it's not as convincing as it could be. In short, there are lots of approaches but the majority are a mix of RNG and hand-crafted to varying degrees of success. Very few games use balls-to-the-wall procgen for everything because that's incredibly boring unless you are really going to invest a lot of time into it. A looot. perc2 fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Mar 9, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2021 22:45
|
|
|
MORE TAXES WHEN posted:Oh wow I haven't thought about Skyward Collapse in ages. I used to play so many janky Arcen games, I hope they manage to survive off AI War 2 and go on to make many more interesting but kind of bad games. Unfortunately, those weird games didn't make a lot of money and the company collapsed and the last person in the company other than the founder had to actually take a paying job, and AI War 2 is like 50% unpaid work by two fans, 20% work by said founder, and 25% paid work by said two fans, with the remaining five percent being other community members. AI War 2 is still a significant financial loss for the founder personally, and he's undecided on whether he'll have to quit game design forever or just make AI War 3 immediately after he feels 2 is done, since it's the only thing that sells.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2021 23:01
|
|
|
John Lee posted:Unfortunately, those weird games didn't make a lot of money and the company collapsed and the last person in the company other than the founder had to actually take a paying job, and AI War 2 is like 50% unpaid work by two fans, 20% work by said founder, and 25% paid work by said two fans, with the remaining five percent being other community members. AI War 2 is still a significant financial loss for the founder personally, and he's undecided on whether he'll have to quit game design forever or just make AI War 3 immediately after he feels 2 is done, since it's the only thing that sells. That's a shame, they games they made tended to be unique but unfortunately often missed the mark one way or another. Plus the Steam landscape is just totally different than it was when AI War came out.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2021 23:10
|
|
|
I never was too big a fan of most of Arcen Games' work, but I absolutely love Bionic Dues. For me it kind of ends up playing like a cross between a traditional roguelike and a puzzle game? The main premise is that you control a squad of 4 mechs against a massive army of AI controlled robots, but the robots have lovely and often very specific AI; you have things like bots that can't change direction until they hit a wall, rocket launcher bots that literally miss every shot (but can still hit you with the splash damage), or a powerful siege bot that can't move or attack unless another ally is nearby because it gets lonely. Most enemies are extremely lethal, with even your tankiest mech probably only able to take 3-5 shots at most, so you're constantly looking for ways to wipe out the enemy without getting hit at all, ideally. And because most of the bots behave in pretty dumb and predicable ways you can usually lead them into traps or get them to line up for a AoE kills. It's just a really fun time imo, and it's also got a pretty chunky loot system if that's your jam. Just uh...turn off the voice acting. It's somewhat funny for the first 5 minutes but they just won't stop saying the same voice clips over and over and over again.
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2021 23:30
|
|
|
Arcen makes me sad for a lot of reasons, it was kind of funny to poke fun of their weird jank and whacky dinosaur unity game, then they imploded, I think the lead went through some bad life events and now they're on life support AI war was lightning in a bottle, unfortunate since the core concept is something I 100% want more of from strategy games (assymetric strategy opponent, difficulty hill instead of an inverse curve, brilliant in coop, etc etc)
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2021 23:31
|
|
|
perc2 posted:
My dream RL is something like Crawl’s approach where things feel varied enough to be interesting, but with enough depth to keep you coming back. I think procgen gets a pretty bad wrap because of its lazy application but that shouldn’t stop people from trying. In short, the loooot you are talking about should be, to my way of thinking, the goal for the next RL that’s closer to trad than not. Basically I dream of something that’s just a touch more involved and simulationist than Crawl with boatloads of bespoke elements that get sprinkled throughout to keep the runs fresh, but with a simple enough gameplay loop (i.e. keep it to the monster bashing/loot acquisition) that the game feels manageable. Make it crunchy, but tasty, is the best way I can think to say this. Which, now that I think of it, perhaps Qud does? I haven’t played it so wouldn’t know, but I imagine it at least tries to hit that sort of note, no? I know it has some recurring elements throughout to hang everything together, but do those elements override any randomness in such a way that it feels incidental?
|
|
#
?
Mar 9, 2021 23:39
|
|
|
Qud is really really close to that imo Really my biggest problem with qud is it's so good I get mad every time I come back to play it because it's not done yet and I want a proper finale  That said the current "end" is incredibly loving good e: I should note it is categorically not "balanced", you can break it all sorts of ways (similarly it can break you in unfair ways and/or buglets) - but it does let you have fun! victrix fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Mar 10, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 00:01
|
|
|
BurningBeard posted:My dream RL is something like Crawl’s approach where things feel varied enough to be interesting, but with enough depth to keep you coming back. I think procgen gets a pretty bad wrap because of its lazy application but that shouldn’t stop people from trying. In short, the loooot you are talking about should be, to my way of thinking, the goal for the next RL that’s closer to trad than not. Realistically what you'd need to do is create a proc gen system that you can license out to people. Like how back in the day everyone made their own 3d engine, while these days the vast majority of the time you just license one of the existing ones.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 00:11
|
|
|
perc2 posted:Crawl is a pretty basic and solid example of how it's done. You have a randomly generated overall structure that is peppered with pre-designed rooms and vaults, giving you a fair bit of RNG to keep you on your toes, but well-designed challenges to overcome throughout. Notably, the Vaults area in Crawl is just pre-designed rooms (which Crawl calls "vaults," natch) randomly snapped together like Legos; there's no "outside" part at all. It used to use a really bland "big empty room with some boxes" generator but got changed a few years ago.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 00:16
|
|
|
ZypherIM posted:Realistically what you'd need to do is create a proc gen system that you can license out to people. Like how back in the day everyone made their own 3d engine, while these days the vast majority of the time you just license one of the existing ones. brb setting up a kickstarter. In reality, this actually seems like a pretty good idea since roguelike tropes are kinda in right now. victrix posted:Qud is really really close to that imo Can it be played straight up in term? A lot of games like Brogue are ascii, but stylized and it’s actually a graphical overlay. So screen reader access becomes a no-go. VVV well that sucks. Thanks. unattended spaghetti fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Mar 10, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 00:35
|
|
|
BurningBeard posted:Can it be played straight up in term? A lot of games like Brogue are ascii, but stylized and it’s actually a graphical overlay. So screen reader access becomes a no-go. I think the old freeware version on their website can, but modern Qud can't (and is designed around tiles anyway)
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 00:47
|
|
|
Just a reminder that 7DRL is going on right now so keep a look out over at https://itch.io/jam/7drl-challenge-2021 Submissions are due on 3/15
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 00:47
|
|
|
victrix posted:Arcen makes me sad for a lot of reasons, it was kind of funny to poke fun of their weird jank and whacky dinosaur unity game, then they imploded, I think the lead went through some bad life events and now they're on life support Yeah :/ Even their jankiest games were unique enough for me to remember them clearly years later, and I genuinely really loved The Last Federation. I figured I was never seeing that non-combat 4X anyway, alas... Slightly more on topic, I've been craving a more traditional roguelike for a minute but I rarely have the energy to game on my PC. I've got Tangledeep on Switch, I vaguely remember bouncing off it but it's long enough ago and I don't remember why so I might give it another go. Any other recommendations for iPhone or switch? I've tried mobile nethack ports and I really wish I could tolerate them better, but ah well.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 00:59
|
|
|
The sum total of my Android game installs rn is Card Quest Everything I try feels like cut down mobile trash, if there are great ones out there I also want to know
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 01:00
|
|
|
woke kaczynski posted:Slightly more on topic, I've been craving a more traditional roguelike for a minute but I rarely have the energy to game on my PC. I've got Tangledeep on Switch, I vaguely remember bouncing off it but it's long enough ago and I don't remember why so I might give it another go. Any other recommendations for iPhone or switch? I've tried mobile nethack ports and I really wish I could tolerate them better, but ah well. I'll always recommend Shiren the Wanderer on Switch. Really solid fundamentals, crazy amounts of content, good variety in the postgame dungeons, and rescuing other players is cool.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 01:04
|
|
|
victrix posted:The sum total of my Android game installs rn is Card Quest Slay the Spire is the lord of my cellphone but that's because it's a mobile port of an excellent game.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 01:05
|
|
|
John Lee posted:Unfortunately, those weird games didn't make a lot of money and the company collapsed and the last person in the company other than the founder had to actually take a paying job, and AI War 2 is like 50% unpaid work by two fans, 20% work by said founder, and 25% paid work by said two fans, with the remaining five percent being other community members. AI War 2 is still a significant financial loss for the founder personally, and he's undecided on whether he'll have to quit game design forever or just make AI War 3 immediately after he feels 2 is done, since it's the only thing that sells. Oof, that's rough. Unsurprising, but rough. Arzaac posted:Bionic Dues. Yeah, this one's great too! It's of course janky and in no way fair but it's absolutely worth the $2.50 it'll cost to pick it up on Steam.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 01:23
|
|
|
victrix posted:The sum total of my Android game installs rn is Card Quest I'm super cheesed that it seems to have been removed from the iOS store Give us back the only good mobile game, Apple, you fucks
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 01:29
|
|
|
AI War was so cool... in 2010. In theory I should love Starward Rogue (shmupish roguelite) but there's jank, and then there's insufferably jank, and that game is insufferably jank. Monolith takes its lunch.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 01:36
|
|
|
Bionic dues was pretty cool for cheap and a play through
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 01:58
|
|
|
My Arcen experience began with the A Valley Without Wind fiasco and I think that kept me from really giving Bionic Dues a fair shake.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 02:01
|
|
|
victrix posted:The sum total of my Android game installs rn is Card Quest Night of the Full Moon is the best mobile DQ-style I've seen, apart from the slightly dodgy translation from Chinese. The base game is free, but I paid for the unlocks including ad-free mode with zero regrets.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 02:03
|
|
|
iOS has POWDER which is somewhat simple but pretty good. Android has a perfectly decent ASCII DCSS port (if you don't hate trunk) and a perfectly decent Webtiles app (for forks, if you do).
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 02:16
|
|
|
Jedit posted:Night of the Full Moon is the best mobile DQ-style I've seen, apart from the slightly dodgy translation from Chinese. The base game is free, but I paid for the unlocks including ad-free mode with zero regrets. Seconding this, although I think the slightly wonky translation of it all is part of the charm, especially when you combine the ridiculous wording with the surprisingly good voice acting. If I had any complaint about it, it'd be that it's incredibly easy right up until the last few difficulty levels and secret bosses, when it can get pretty nasty even if you're using all the extra bonus abilities from reviving.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 02:56
|
|
|
victrix posted:Qud is really really close to that imo Qud basically encourages you to break the game as long as it's a sufficiently weird and entertaining story. Break the economy over your knee because you harvest wine from a fungus and sell it to a jeweler and his 6 clones? Sounds good. Trivialize a dungeon's main mechanic? Sure, just dig your way into a secret dungeon, find and mind-control the right robot, have it perform cybersurgery on you then get out before the place collapses. Qud is great because rather than patching out the broken poo poo, they make you work for it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 04:27
|
|
|
ZypherIM posted:Realistically what you'd need to do is create a proc gen system that you can license out to people. Like how back in the day everyone made their own 3d engine, while these days the vast majority of the time you just license one of the existing ones. Roguelike Maker would probably be a very popular game. Set the conditions of your procgen, create items, import your own tiles in, choose how attacks and poo poo are calculated...hmm
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 04:42
|
|
|
woke kaczynski posted:I figured I was never seeing that non-combat 4X anyway, alas... Hey, I got good new for you: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1264280/Slipways/ It's probably not exactly what you're looking for, with a focus on economics/resource balancing, and most importantly designed to have short playtimes - like, an hour-ish, but it's at least in the ballpark. (I'm hoping it's got good mod support, and that somebody mods it out to make runs, like, a few hours long.)
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 04:44
|
|
|
idk if it still counts as a roguelike but ive been trying to finally get into darkest dungeon properly i beat like 3 of the early bosses but then my starting highwayman died to vampires and it made me depressed
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 06:48
|
|
|
does anyone here unironically play Rogue?
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 06:50
|
|
|
I play it, but ironically
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 06:55
|
|
|
Thanks for all the recs! I used to play a lot of pokemon mystery dungeon on ds/3ds, and $20 seems a lot more palatable than $60 for the switch edition. I vaguely remember playing POWDER years ago so I'm redownloading. Tossed Slipways on the wishlist too. Also, since posting last I found a tolerable Nethack port that actually has proper menus for action instead of expecting me to use the on-screen keyboard as if I were on desktop, and I'm having a good little burst of nostalgia. I was obsessed with it when I was a college freshman (a decade ago, I'm now realizing...) and I still remember a death from spacing out and sacrificing a gray unicorn on a neutral altar as vividly as if it were yesterday. I'm still enjoying it in a sense, but I'm also grateful to see how much the roguelike scene has expanded even by the strictest definition.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 06:56
|
|
|
Arzaac posted:I never was too big a fan of most of Arcen Games' work, but I absolutely love Bionic Dues. If you want "Bionic Dues, but with less loot," Mainframe Defenders scratches that same itch for me these days. 4 bot teams with 4 pieces of equipment each compared to the piles of stuff in Bionic Dues. Still fun to optimize each bots loadout, and role within the team. Don't think everything has been properly rebalanced around the new armor values. One piece of equipment in particular adds corrosion damage equal to armor and is now completely worthless.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 07:34
|
|
|
Dachshundofdoom posted:Seconding this, although I think the slightly wonky translation of it all is part of the charm, especially when you combine the ridiculous wording with the surprisingly good voice acting. If I had any complaint about it, it'd be that it's incredibly easy right up until the last few difficulty levels and secret bosses, when it can get pretty nasty even if you're using all the extra bonus abilities from reviving. It's themed around a fairy tale, remember. I expect the lower difficulties are there so that kids can still enjoy it, while Nightmare mode is there for the true masochists. (I still haven't cleared it with the Nun.)
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 08:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 12, 2024 06:26 |
|
|
juggalo baby coffin posted:idk if it still counts as a roguelike but ive been trying to finally get into darkest dungeon properly I played the game specifically using no guides or spoilers and also got bummed out so hard that I ended up stopping because I lost both Dismas and Reynauld (and my other best character) in the eponymous DARKEST DUNGEON first stage because it had a stupid gimmick that you cannot reasonably prepare for without googling it in advance. Really cool game though, look forward to the sequel.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2021 10:55
|
|
