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MrFurious posted:Look At That! (LAT) is a training and desensitization protocol that comes from Leslie McDevitt's book called Control Unleashed. Great post. I've posted a link to it in Section D of the OP.
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Feb 8, 2013 00:03
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Wulfolme posted:I'm having some trouble with 'fading the lure.' First of all I'm not exactly sure how far to go with it even I can get it to work; I've read that you're supposed to stop giving the dog a treat for every click eventually, so they'll follow commands when you don't have a handful of food. Never seen anything on how you're supposed to do it, though. It sounds like you are mixing up a few different concepts. There are many kinds of reinforcement schedules (i.e. when to give your dog a treat). First, a clicker is a marker that tells your dog exactly when they did what you were asking them to do and that a reward is coming. To keep the association between the clicker and a reward strong, you should always reward after a click. You don't have to click each time, however, and can ask for multiple actions before clicking and rewarding. That is getting a little ahead of ourselves, however. When you are first teaching a dog a behavior, you want to be on a 1:1 fixed reinforcement schedule (i.e. 1 action = 1 reward or jackpot). Every time your dog gets it right, he gets a treat. As your dog learns, you want to raise the criteria like kikopup does in the video (the dog gets a treat for standing still, then for folding his back legs a bit, then for doing the full down) until you get the full behavior. You treat for every time your dog meets your current criteria (and jackpot when he does it extra well). Eventually your dog will have a full understanding of what you are asking and be able to do it consistently (this depends a bit on how fast your dog learns, but say something like he does it right every 9 out of 10 times). When you get to this stage, then you can move away from the 1:1 fixed reinforcement schedule. So maybe now he gets a treat every two times he does it. Eventually you should graduate to a variable reinforcement schedule where you give the dog a treat at random intervals. This helps teach the dog that he needs to do everything you ask and pay attention because he never knows which trick will get him the treat! You should still only click when you intend to reward. Some people use a verbal marker or praise for in between treats. Remember that this is only for learned tricks and a trick needs to taught in many different circumstances. So even if your dog knows sit in your living room for one second, teaching him to sit in the park or when you're across the room or for a long time means going back to the 1:1 reinforcement schedule until he's got it down. As far as luring, it can be tricky to fade the lure. I would check to make sure you aren't going too fast (kikopup moves very fast in the video because her dog obviously knows the trick already) and I would start not giving the dog the lure. Use the lure like usual, click for the behavior and then give a different treat from your treat bag or whatever. You can even just pretend to pull out a new treat. Also remember that where you give the treat matters. If you have a problem with your dog staring at the treat bag, then don't just hand him the treat from the bag. Put it in front of your face and then hand it to him straight from your face, so he gets in the habit of looking at you. If you're teaching something where you want the dog to be facing a certain direction, make sure he gets the treat in that direction and he's not twisting around somewhere else. For a stay, always reward in the place they are staying (even if you have to walk back over there). Where they get the treat from indicates a place of importance, so you should use that to your advantage. Also, just practice patience with your dog by taking some time to show him that shoving his nose in your hand gets him nothing and backing off and waiting patiently gets him everything. You can do this informally or formally teach Leave It. Kiri koli fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Feb 8, 2013 |
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Feb 8, 2013 02:53
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uptown posted:More problematic than that, however, is he is now scared to jump out of the back of a vehicle. I understand that it's because the vehicle (SUV) is high up and he's scared without a step, but how can I get him to learn that it's not scary and he won't get hurt? I mean... I could buy a set of dog stairs, but what the gently caress - How am I going to transport them? Right now we've been backing the car up so he can jump into a snowbank, because without some middle ground he just won't get out. Any ideas on how to fix the fear?
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Feb 8, 2013 09:13
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Hello folks! Hope someone has some ideas for my situation. I'm dogsitting a 7-month old, female dog. The dog is quite hyper-active, she doesn't really know how to relax when she is with me, except when we're outside for a long time. Yesterday we were on a 4-hour walk with plenty of playsessions with other dogs, and afterwards she was calm for about an hour and a half, then starting getting playful and attentionseeking again. When the owner came to pick her up later, she almost passed out in the hall while we were talking. When she wants attention she does the invite to play stance, jumps around, barks and eventually starts nipping. I usually redirect her nipping, if she get's to excited i get her to go into the hall and close the door for a few seconds as a "time-out". But it only helps for about a minute, after which she gets playful and excited again. The owners are quite "rough" with her. Her daddy's solution to her jumping on people is to pin her down or against the wall when she is near to the wall. The owners tell me to just be rougher with her if she doesn't obey, but I don't really want that. Could it be that she is so used to physical correction that she doesn't respect my corrections? The additional problem is, that I often not see the dog for a few weeks, and then every other day for two weeks, and then not see her again for quite a while. I think this makes most of the training I do with her ineffective, is this a right assumption? Is there any benefit if I get her used to a clicker, if she only ever is getting training when she is with me? Are there any short term tips how I can get her to be calmer when she is with me, with a situation like this?
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Feb 8, 2013 12:52
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quote:When she wants attention she does the invite to play stance quote:The owners are quite "rough" with her. Her daddy's solution to her jumping on people is to pin her down or against the wall when she is near to the wall. The owners tell me to just be rougher with her if she doesn't obey, but I don't really want that. Could it be that she is so used to physical correction that she doesn't respect my corrections? quote:The additional problem is, that I often not see the dog for a few weeks, and then every other day for two weeks, and then not see her again for quite a while. I think this makes most of the training I do with her ineffective, is this a right assumption? Is there any benefit if I get her used to a clicker, if she only ever is getting training when she is with me? quote:Are there any short term tips how I can get her to be calmer when she is with me, with a situation like this?
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Feb 8, 2013 15:26
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bionictom posted:Are there any short term tips how I can get her to be calmer when she is with me, with a situation like this? That's a whole can of worms right there. What are you doing for corrections? Probably best to stop that, the dog is only seeing it as you playing with her and corrections aren't nearly as effective as positive training. Yes, it's definitely worth getting a clicker. Once you teach the basics like sit and down (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NHqAW66-gE), you can teach it to like hanging out on a dog bed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQzXdAA3vk8). Best case scenario, the owners might see how well it works and stop being assholes to their dog. Clicker training is all about training a dog to do what you want and managing it so that it doesn't have an opportunity to do things you don't want. It makes so much sense once you start. Dogs are pretty smart at remembering how to behave around different people so it should stick especially if you get her two weeks at a time. 7 months is still a big puppy, I wouldn't say this one is that much more active than most. She'll grow out of this level of energy pretty quickly but not the bad habits. Maybe get a tug rope or old t-shirt and play that with her before she gets to nipping. Most dogs love it, you can do it while you're sitting on the couch and it tires them out pretty quickly.
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Feb 8, 2013 15:42
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Riiseli posted:All of this has me asking whether you've had his joints x-rayed? Newfies are prone to joint issues and if he has arthritis say in his elbows it's no wonder he'd be hesitant to jump down from the back of your SUV. It might hurt quite a bit every time and make him hesitant to jump out. You'll be fixing the car issue by getting him a ramp, but I'd look into having him checked out by a vet as finding out about a possible problem as early as possible will allow you to make other adjustments that will prevent further issues along the line. He's 9 months old, so hopefully no arthritis. The problem was discovered when we were trying to take him to the vet yesterday - He has a sinus infection but wouldn't get into the car. I bought a ramp and will try to get him to use it for a bit, if not, the vet is only a half hour walk away so we'll just walk, I guess.
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Feb 8, 2013 16:13
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bionictom posted:
Short term, practicing obedience in home is good mental exercise. 1/2 hour obedience training is as draining as a 2 hour walk. Simple things like sit stay lie down. Once you have the basics worked out, you can use it as part of the game. Like put her in a down/stay, throw a toy, wait a few minutes before releasing her. Can just gear the gears grinding as they wait for the release command.
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Feb 8, 2013 19:19
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Shaded posted:Short term, practicing obedience in home is good mental exercise. 1/2 hour obedience training is as draining as a 2 hour walk. Simple things like sit stay lie down. Once you have the basics worked out, you can use it as part of the game. Like put her in a down/stay, throw a toy, wait a few minutes before releasing her. Can just gear the gears grinding as they wait for the release command. Also if you are willing to invest in toys, a food dispensing toy like a tug a jug or a kong wobbler can give the dog some mental and physical stimulation. You can get pretty good deals on both on amazon. If you aren't sure if she can handle a difficult puzzle toy, I'd suggest using the wobbler first. My dog loves it and never really understood the tug a jug.
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Feb 8, 2013 19:23
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uptown posted:He's 9 months old, so hopefully no arthritis. The problem was discovered when we were trying to take him to the vet yesterday - He has a sinus infection but wouldn't get into the car. I bought a ramp and will try to get him to use it for a bit, if not, the vet is only a half hour walk away so we'll just walk, I guess.
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Feb 8, 2013 20:27
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bionictom posted:Good opportunities for mat work Okay, sorry it took me so long to get back to you. Here's the rundown on mat work. Similar to LAT, this is an exercise that is well suited to dogs that are easily aroused or anxious in many situations. In both cases, what we are trying to do is teach our dog to get control of their emotional state. Here's what you need:
There are a few cardinal rules before we begin as well.
We begin by teaching our dog that the mat is a wonderful thing. You can do this on or off leash, but if your dog has a tendency to wander, a leash is recommended. A hands-free leash would be ideal here. Take your towel and spread it out in front of your dog. Drop a couple of treats onto the mat and let your dog take them. If your dog then moves off of the mat, end the exercise as described above and then try again. Very soon your dog will be moving onto the mat as soon as you lay it down and before you drop treats - this is good progress! Next, we will look for a sit. If your dog already offers sits as a default behavior, you are in good shape. If not, when your dog gets on the mat, you may ask for a sit once and only once. If he sits, sprinkle more treats. If he chooses not to sit, the exercise ends. If you are cuing the sit, repeat several times, then put the mat down and wait for a sit without a cue. If he sits, jackpot your dog with lots of treats one at a time over a longer than normal duration -- at least 10 seconds. The goal at this phase is to get to the point at which our dog goes and sits on the mat voluntarily as soon as we lay it down. Once we are at this stage, we usually want to transition from a sit to a down. Do this the same as you achieved the sit, but cuing if necessary and then fading the cue. Although this is not strictly necessary, it does tend to lead to much better results than a sit for the later exercises. We are using the principles of biofeedback to encourage our dogs to remain calm and relaxed. If they are laying down in a relaxed position, they are more likely to be relaxed. Once your dog is reliably offering a down on the mat, it's time to work on the real meat of this training. So far we have built the mat into a cue for an implied down, and we will now turn that into an implied down and stay. After your dog goes into the down, drop one treat. A common problem at this stage is that the dog breaks the down in order to get the treat. If this is the case for you, take a look at the bottom of this post for some tips. Wait two seconds, then drop another one. Wait one second, then drop another treat. Steadily increase the time you are waiting, but be sure that you continue to throw in durations that are very short and easy. It is easy for us to consistently raise the bar for our dogs to the point that it just isn't worth that treat anymore, so we need to keep them guessing. Maybe I have to wait 10 seconds, but maybe it's only 2 seconds! If you are reliably getting an implied down with stay durations, you are ready to move on to the Relaxation Protocol. I've uploaded this on to Google Docs and anyone with the link (below) should be able to view it. Work your way through the daily exercises as you go. Bear in mind that Dr. Overall assumes a sit position, but I highly recommend a down. If you only get to step four of Day One before your dog breaks, that's okay! Stop there and come back later and start from the beginning. When your dog is doing well inside in your quiet area you can begin to move into surroundings that resemble situations that are more stressful. Your dog will learn (provided that this is true) that as long as they stay on the mat, they are safe and good things will happen to them. This allows you to counter-condition them to their stressors. As you progress, you can also steadily shrink the size of the mat as well. Start by folding it up smaller and smaller, but some people with very anxious dogs have been able to work their dogs using only a small hand towel that they keep folded in their back pocket. You can find the Relaxation Protocol here: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8oE-QD2hnUZZ1ItM3p1dEV1cjQ/edit?usp=sharing Tips & Tricks
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Feb 9, 2013 20:36
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So Feldman has started displaying resource guarding aggression, growling and snapping when I tried to take a rawhide bone away from him. I can't remember how you deal with that, you shove a treat in his face when you go to take the bone away, or something? edit: Vvv I would if I had the money. Is there anything I can do in the mean time? Deep Thoreau fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Feb 9, 2013 |
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Feb 9, 2013 22:57
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Bash Ironfist posted:So Feldman has started displaying resource guarding aggression, growling and snapping when I tried to take a rawhide bone away from him. I can't remember how you deal with that, you shove a treat in his face when you go to take the bone away, or something?
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Feb 9, 2013 23:04
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Bash Ironfist posted:So Feldman has started displaying resource guarding aggression, growling and snapping when I tried to take a rawhide bone away from him. I can't remember how you deal with that, you shove a treat in his face when you go to take the bone away, or something? What have you done to combat his resource guarding since he bit you in December?
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Feb 9, 2013 23:10
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Bash Ironfist posted:edit: Vvv I would if I had the money. Is there anything I can do in the mean time? It's under $10 used on amazon and you may be able to find it at libraries. It's a really good resource. This site is a good start if you really can't scrape up the cash but really, the book is great.
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Feb 9, 2013 23:13
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edit: ^^^ thanks!Fraction posted:What have you done to combat his resource guarding since he bit you in December? I completely forgot about that, actually. The thing is we haven't given him edible things to chew on for a long time, because of the whole giardia thing. We got these rawhide bones for him to keep him occupied while he's in his crate on forced bed-rest. Maybe he's just really excited to have a Thing to chew and eat now? Most of the time he just plays his kong frisbee or this little squeaky zebra, and he'll bring them over for me to throw/tug with him with. He'd start chewing on the frisbee, and I'd pick it up and give it a toss, and he wouldn't growl or anything about it. Could it be this is happening because this bone is edible?
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Feb 9, 2013 23:15
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Bash Ironfist posted:edit: ^^^ thanks! Its possible its that combined with the fact that he doesn't usually get them making them really high value. For now, just try to minimize needing to take it from him, because the more he practices guarding, the harder it will be fore you to break him of those habits.
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Feb 10, 2013 00:56
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Thanks for your advice. Unfortunately I won't see the dog for the next two weeks, but I printed out some of your advice and gonna try if things work out better.
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Feb 10, 2013 22:02
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I'm taking Shelby to a Nosework class wednsday and I need a few different smelly training treats. The problem is she has calcium oxilate crystals so the usual suspects like hot dogs are out, or atleast need to be used in moderation. Any ideas?
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Feb 11, 2013 03:14
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Stregone posted:I'm taking Shelby to a Nosework class wednsday and I need a few different smelly training treats. The problem is she has calcium oxilate crystals so the usual suspects like hot dogs are out, or atleast need to be used in moderation. Any ideas? You should probably run this by your vet, but this looks very informative: http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjcalciumoxalates.html Based upon that article you should be safe to use cheese and fish. I recommend salmon or tuna - extra stinky. Good luck!
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Feb 11, 2013 17:08
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Cool, thanks 
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Feb 12, 2013 02:09
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So, I was recently told to keep a spray bottle nearby and to spritz Winston whenever he's licking us as a way of diverting his attention. Would this be a valid option? I don't want to resort to avoidance training, but I don't know if this counts as such.
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Feb 15, 2013 05:05
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XIII posted:So, I was recently told to keep a spray bottle nearby and to spritz Winston whenever he's licking us as a way of diverting his attention. Would this be a valid option? I don't want to resort to avoidance training, but I don't know if this counts as such. Sounds like bad advice to me. What exactly is the problem? Does he start licking and never stop? There are way worse problems to have, but if that's the issue, just constantly redirect him to an appropriate chew toy. A kong with just a little bit of peanut butter smeared on the inside is a good start.
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Feb 15, 2013 15:28
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I've mentioned it a time or two in the thread, so forgive me for talking about it yet again, but he just licks. If he's next to you, he wants to lick you. Your hand, your jeans, your face, whatever.
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Feb 15, 2013 15:59
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XIII posted:So, I was recently told to keep a spray bottle nearby and to spritz Winston whenever he's licking us as a way of diverting his attention. Would this be a valid option? I don't want to resort to avoidance training, but I don't know if this counts as such. The major issue here is timing. I imagine he'll start licking, you'll notice, you'll try to interrupt, he'll continue, you'll reach for the water sprayer which may or may not be within reach, you'll maybe warn him again, and then you'll spray him. That process will take at least a few seconds, and by the time he gets a squirt of water in his face the punisher will lose significant association with the behaviour. You'll just end up with a wet, anxious dog. Licking is a self soothing behaviour. It'd be poetic if the spray encouraged him to lick more. If you could spray him the split second he licked every single time then it may be effective (the same way citronella collars are more effective than bottle sprays). However, it's not really feasible. Then there's the issue of using a punisher in this situation. I recently posted in another thread that I discovered that my Chihuahua turned into a shaking nervous mess when I sprayed her with a waterless shampoo cleaner -- she had been sprayed for barking when she was with her previous owners and associated the new cleaner with the previous punishment. She still barked too. It was a good example of how a punisher may not be properly associated with a behaviour, and how you may see fallout from it years afterwards. I would probably interrupt with a loud "HEY!" and put him on the floor, or away from whatever he's licking. Maybe on a tether station tied to your coffee table or something. I would also do as MrFurious suggests and offer appropriate licking situations. Try to offer them before inappropriate licking starts. Being proactive is always better than being reactive.
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Feb 15, 2013 16:16
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That's what I assumed (and why I asked). I've been trying to associate licking = no more couch privileges. He also does this thing where he constantly wants to be on you. Sometimes it's fine (laying on the couch, head in your lap), but most of the time is "hey guys, I'm going to put half my body in your lap or maybe try to climb you like a jungle gym"
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Feb 15, 2013 16:23
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XIII posted:I've mentioned it a time or two in the thread, so forgive me for talking about it yet again, but he just licks. If he's next to you, he wants to lick you. Your hand, your jeans, your face, whatever. Maybe you can put his licking on cue? Train him to lick whatever you point at and reward him. No reward when he licks without a cue. Best case scenario is that he doesn't bother licking when he doesn't get the reward. The worst case scenario is that he still licks compulsively but you can have him clean up spills on demand.
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Feb 15, 2013 16:24
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If its anxiety based, I don't think a loud 'hey' would be a good idea. What may work better (and what worked for me) would be using a no reward marker and calmly putting her on the floor. E: XII pushy dogs go on the floor. If I've told a dog to stop being pushy & settle down and they don't, they get to lie on the floor instead.
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Feb 15, 2013 16:24
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XIII posted:He also does this thing where he constantly wants to be on you. Sometimes it's fine (laying on the couch, head in your lap), but most of the time is "hey guys, I'm going to put half my body in your lap or maybe try to climb you like a jungle gym"
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Feb 15, 2013 17:25
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We started doing "Kisses", so he's getting a few allowed like licks, then "Enough" as a stop. Even on high exercise days, he does it, but it is noticeably better. He's had a rough first couple of years, so I'm sure it'll get better as he settles in. We just want to make it as easy for him as possible.
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Feb 15, 2013 18:05
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How much exercise does he get on a daily basis?
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Feb 15, 2013 18:17
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XIII posted:That's what I assumed (and why I asked). I've been trying to associate licking = no more couch privileges. My dog licks all the time. Constantly. Not just people but everything. Couches, toys, the floor, basically everything. She didn't always lick this much. It was reinforced quite a bit when she was younger both before we had her (when she was at the SPCA) and afterwards (my family would make it into a fun game since they didn't like to be licked). Everyone would make a lot of fun noise and pet her to try and get her to stop licking them, which made her lick them more. Every one does this. New people that she encounters react the same way, she licks them, they respond positively (as in noises, hand waving, touching her) and give her more attention. She doesn't lick me (often) though. Every time she would lick me I would say leave it and ignore her. I did this from the first day I noticed she would lick more often than not. She would lick, I would say Leave it and then turn away from her. She already had a really strong leave it before we started with it. This only works for me however, when my partner tries to get her to stop licking him using this same method she'll ignore him but if I say it she'll stop. I actually did a video about it for one of my behaviour classes showing how consistent R- is effective for unwanted behaviours and to show my family that what I was saying was real!
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Feb 15, 2013 18:18
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Fraction posted:How much exercise does he get on a daily basis? We aim for a 30min walk and a good session or two of tug/fetch.
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Feb 15, 2013 18:54
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XIII posted:We aim for a 30min walk and a good session or two of tug/fetch. That's not much exercise for a Boxer. They're sort of the world's more energetic dogs. Try aiming for 1-1.5 hours of walking/running a day (not just a trudge around the neighbourhood) and see if that makes any difference. It'll be best if you use it in conjunction with stopping attention and removing/tethering him when he starts licking.
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Feb 15, 2013 19:15
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Ok, we'll do that.
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Feb 15, 2013 19:33
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More exercise yay! So a cool thing has happened during our training session with Psyche last night. I usually keep a toy nearby so we can do some shaping if she needs a break from more stressful stuff. Normally she only voluntarily plays with toys if she's in the right mood (and NEVER during training or in front of someone else), but last night she decided she would rather play with the toy than do what we were doing. So, for the first time really, I got to work a toy into our training as a reward! Yaay! She was super happy about it and I would reward her with the toy every ten minutes or so and she stayed interested in the toy the whole hour. She kept looking at it and back at me while we were doing other stuff, like 'now? now? toy??'. I've been pairing a toy and food for games of fetch for a while now and I think it finally built up the value of the toy for her. So if you have a dog that doesn't play much or doesn't value toys as a reward, it can (slowly) be changed!
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Feb 15, 2013 19:42
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XIII posted:We aim for a 30min walk and a good session or two of tug/fetch.
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Feb 15, 2013 19:44
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a life less posted:That's not much exercise for a Boxer. They're sort of the world's more energetic dogs. Try aiming for 1-1.5 hours of walking/running a day (not just a trudge around the neighbourhood) and see if that makes any difference. It'll be best if you use it in conjunction with stopping attention and removing/tethering him when he starts licking. Another possibility for exercise could be a flirt pole that you could either set up or wave for your dog- they are apparently really good exercise and your dog might like it. (See: http://www.amazon.com/Bow-Wow-Flirt...ords=flirt+pole and you can make your own as well.)
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Feb 15, 2013 21:31
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Hi training thread! I come to ask for some advice. My friend is looking after their family dog this month whilst her mother is back in Japan, and as she has lots of evening classes I'm dogsitting for her a few evenings a week. Choco is a sweet and bright papillon, I think he's about 8-9 years old so not a young dog. Here is a picture of him looking fabulous - I know PI loves pics:  He knows how to sit, lie down, roll over, high five and give a paw, stay/leave it, spin. Anyway my question was basically that I know my friend loves her dog and would be delighted if I taught him something new, so I thought I might secretly work on teaching him a new trick whilst he's here in the evenings - do you guys think that's feasible? I obviously wouldn't attempt anything until he's comfortable with my presence and knows he can trust me, although we've already been hanging out a bit and I'm pretty sure he at least remembers who I am at this point. He seems very food motivated which should make things easier. Anyway, if you think it's not too ambitious (or even if it is - it might be fun/more stimulating for us to "work" when he's here rather than just sit around my flat) do you guys have a suggestion of a simple trick/command that isn't in his current roster? Thanks so much! Chakattack! fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Feb 18, 2013 |
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Feb 18, 2013 13:26
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Spinning is fun and easy for dogs. You can make it doubly impressive by making the cue to spin right "right" and left "left". Your friend's dog will look like a genius. Teaching it is easy. Just lure it. I'm not at home so I'm not going to search up a link but maybe someone else will. Or search for a video on YouTube.
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Feb 18, 2013 17:27
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