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berzerkmonkey posted:And what is the ADB post? I don't think I've seen it. I probably read it on his blog somewhere but it goes into detail about his understanding of the 40k universe and why it is so enthralling, mainly that unanswered questions with hints held just out of reach hold people's attention much more effectively than just telling them what's up. I want to say it was around the time Emperor's Gift came out and he was talking about the changes in the GK codex and how he had to change the novel. I'm at work at the moment (posting about plastic mans fiction) so I can't get the link.
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Aug 29, 2013 11:03
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mllaneza posted:Sandy Mitchell needs to hurry the gently caress up and write his Caine vs Dark Eldar novel already. Yeah! Enough Goddamn 'Nids.
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Aug 29, 2013 12:26
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Fellblade posted:I probably read it on his blog somewhere but it goes into detail about his understanding of the 40k universe and why it is so enthralling, mainly that unanswered questions with hints held just out of reach hold people's attention much more effectively than just telling them what's up. I want to say it was around the time Emperor's Gift came out and he was talking about the changes in the GK codex and how he had to change the novel. There's a couple of posts where he talks about writing 40K fiction and dealing with the fans but I think the main post you're referring to is probablyhere. In essence, each writer can design whatever fluff he wants as long as it says within a very rough boundary of being '40k'. It's professional courtesy to not contradict existing fluff and other writers but it's not something that is enforced. He also had a quote from one of the former head of Black Library which kind of explains where they're coming from. quote:“Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about “canonical background” will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history…
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Aug 29, 2013 12:36
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I'm reading the Soul Drinkers: Redemption omnibus and I'm not sure what it is but they are the least likable protagonists ever. Their motives are always loving dumb, the methods they use to carry out these motives are dumb, and the entire thing just seems really far-fetched even by 40k standards. I get that Sarpedon is supposed to be babby's special character or something but the stuff they show the Soul Drinker's doing with 400 Marines doesn't seem to be in line with most other fiction. I mean gently caress in Brothers of the Snake 250 Marines got trounced and they were just fighting Orks on a single planet. Also the story of their 'decline' is so loving stupid. Sarpedon talks to some rat faced grognard about Fate and ends up an unknowing servant of Tzeentch for a period? Give me a break.
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Aug 29, 2013 16:55
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:I'm reading the Soul Drinkers: Redemption omnibus Don't.
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Aug 29, 2013 16:58
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Well I'm already like 600 pages in. I'm going to go back and see how many times 'the few remaining chapter serfs' die.
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Aug 29, 2013 17:05
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Don't. Is that the one with the spider Orks and other really stupid poo poo?
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Aug 29, 2013 17:10
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:I'm reading the Soul Drinkers: Redemption... Yes, I said it. Space Marine is crap.
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Aug 29, 2013 18:30
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berzerkmonkey posted:That series was one of the earlier 40K fiction attempts. If you're going to read it, lump it in with the Ian Watson Space Marine novel category - it makes no sense, has no bearing with regards to current fluff, and is generally just crap. You shut your heretical mouth!
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Aug 29, 2013 18:46
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berzerkmonkey posted:That series was one of the earlier 40K fiction attempts. If you're going to read it, lump it in with the Ian Watson Space Marine novel category - it makes no sense, has no bearing with regards to current fluff, and is generally just crap. You're completely loving wrong. Your lovely opinion on Space Marine notwithstanding, its a completely different animal from modern WH40k stuff. Ian Watson has his very peculiar style and the novel uses archaic canon, because it was written way back in 1993. You call Ben Counter's piece of poo poo series one of the earlier 40k fiction attempts? It was released twelve years after Space Marine in 2005. You know what else was released earlier that same year? Eisenhorn. Soul Drinker is a piece of crap that is completely inexcusable and to be thrown in the same pile as the rest of his books, notably his Grey Knights series. And it's not because they're old and don't adhere to current canon, but because they were already poo poo while being written.
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Aug 29, 2013 19:12
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Yeah, I don't really care about fluff inconsistencies (though there are a lot), it's just that all the characters feel like something you would find in a Red Dragon Inn chatroom on AOL 4.0
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Aug 29, 2013 19:21
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Nephilm posted:You're completely loving wrong. Nephilm posted:You call Ben Counter's piece of poo poo series one of the earlier 40k fiction attempts? It was released twelve years after Space Marine in 2005. You know what else was released earlier that same year? Eisenhorn. Nephilm posted:Soul Drinker is a piece of crap that is completely inexcusable and to be thrown in the same pile as the rest of his books, notably his Grey Knights series. And it's not because they're old and don't adhere to current canon, but because they were already poo poo while being written.
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Aug 29, 2013 19:24
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But it's in line with current canon; it's just that it's horrible.
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Aug 29, 2013 19:27
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In recent books: I got my hands on a copy of The Imperial Truth, which I guess was a HH Weekender special. It was alright, thought nothing really stood out except for ADB's Lord of the Red Sands, which was pretty freaking amazing. It is a super short story (only a few pages) but he is able to give Angron more character in those few pages than most authors could do with an entire novel. There's a part where Angron's just standing on a pile of dead loyalist Marines, hacking them down as they try to take him. When there's nobody left, he walks over to a dying loyalist World Eater who's all like "Hey pop... I did it... I gave you that cut on your neck..." Angron (who probably never even felt the thing) responds "You did good today, son. You and your brothers fought bravely," and gently closes the World Eater's eyes when he dies.  Awesome story. You can get it as part of the Angron Ebook, but I'm sure it will get released as part of a collection sometime.
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Aug 29, 2013 19:38
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It just seems like the author didn't really know a whole lot about WH40k outside of what he was writing, aside from Rogal Dorn and the Crimson Fists being weakened, there's not a lot that references anything besides what he is writing and common things like the Inquisition. It just feels off. Why would the Chapter's veterans side with a clearly Warp-tainted novice Librarian? How would this same novice Librarian defeat a battle-hardened Chapter Master aside from a lovely deus ex machina? How could an entire Chapter be so loving stupid?
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Aug 29, 2013 19:38
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Is the Emperor sending Russ to take Magnus in and then Horus nefariously telling him to just kill 'em all still a thing? I remember it being vaguely alluded to in Thousand Sons but no mention in Prospero Burns.
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Aug 29, 2013 21:27
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berzerkmonkey posted:In recent books: I got my hands on a copy of The Imperial Truth, which I guess was a HH Weekender special. It was alright, thought nothing really stood out except for ADB's Lord of the Red Sands, which was pretty freaking amazing. It is a super short story (only a few pages) but he is able to give Angron more character in those few pages than most authors could do with an entire novel. And man, his answer to "What is worth fighting for?" was just great too. His hate, love, disgust, respect, pride, shame, and ideals all get well demonstrated in something like a dozen pages. Basically, gently caress Lorgar.
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Aug 29, 2013 21:30
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Fried Chicken posted:And man, his answer to "What is worth fighting for?" was just great too. His hate, love, disgust, respect, pride, shame, and ideals all get well demonstrated in something like a dozen pages.
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Aug 29, 2013 23:51
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Arbite posted:Is the Emperor sending Russ to take Magnus in and then Horus nefariously telling him to just kill 'em all still a thing? I remember it being vaguely alluded to in Thousand Sons but no mention in Prospero Burns. IIRC, it went like this: 1) Magnus does his poo poo. 2) Emperor sends orders to Russ to bring Magnus in 3) Horus intercepts the orders and changes them to "murder the gently caress out of those dudes" 4) Russ gets his orders to murder the gently caress out of those dudes, not knowing that the orders had been hosed with 5) Russ murders the gently caress out of those dudes It wasn't mentioned in Prospero Burns because that book is from a Space Wolf POV and they didn't know that the orders had been tampered with.
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Aug 30, 2013 00:22
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Also Russ is not surprised he has to murder the gently caress out of those dudes since it is implied the wolves... took care of the missing two primarchs.
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Aug 30, 2013 00:24
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The orders themselves weren't changed, rather Horus persuaded Russ from bringing Magnus back to Terra to outright wipe out the legion (as it's implied he did in the past to the "missing" two). Considering Horus' clout, the Emperor's secretive nature, and Russ' own distrust of Magnus, it seems reasonable.
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Aug 30, 2013 00:27
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Nephilm posted:The orders themselves weren't changed, rather Horus persuaded Russ from bringing Magnus back to Terra to outright wipe out the legion (as it's implied he did in the past to the "missing" two). Considering Horus' clout, the Emperor's secretive nature, and Russ' own distrust of Magnus, it seems reasonable. Wait, where is it implied that Horus suggested Russ wipe out the missing two legions? I always assumed those orders had to come from the Emperor.
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Aug 30, 2013 00:33
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Sorry, I meant that it's implied the Wolves were what happened to the missing legions, not that Horus was behind it.
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Aug 30, 2013 00:36
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That never seemed reasonable to me, because I can't see Russ just deciding to disregard the Emperor's orders to such a huge extent. There's an awfully big difference between "Bring Magnus back for questioning" and "Kill off a fellow Primarch, his Legion, and his homeworld", and I can't see Russ being talked into that kind of escalation.
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Aug 30, 2013 00:41
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Well it's Horus, the Warmaster and good friend of Russ, playing upon his weaknesses and expectations. Russ and Magnus had already been close to coming to blows before, and his distrust had been further compounded by the machinations of Chaos (that's the entire premise behind Prospero Burns, after all). Horus could've played on the line of "for what purpose do we bring him back, give him yet another chance after so grossly disobeying the Emperor's edict? To be once again be given a slap of a wrist then set loose on his unrepentant ways?" And so tell him, if Magnus doesn't comply immediately, to exterminate him and his legion - a sad loss, but necessary. The Emperor had already grown distant from his sons, this is the key that would allow Russ to fall for this, and what precipitated Horus to fall in the first place. There's also precedent for Russ acting without orders, such as when he confronted Angron over the World Eater's excesses. Oh, and it wasn't just Horus either, Valdor was with Russ and wanted Magnus very much dead.
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Aug 30, 2013 00:49
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What I never understood was why Magnus was allowed to leave Earth in the first place after he magically appeared in the deepest recesses of a fortress looking like whateverthefuck and causing death and destruction. And then cause there's so little specifying with time unless there's an estimate dealing with hundreds of years at the minimum, Magnus is back on Prospero being mopey. Which makes me think the Emperor caught him buying a ticket for a shuttle and scolded him for not going back home the way he came.
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Aug 30, 2013 00:54
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Lead Psychiatry posted:What I never understood was why Magnus was allowed to leave Earth in the first place after he magically appeared in the deepest recesses of a fortress looking like whateverthefuck and causing death and destruction. And then cause there's so little specifying with time unless there's an estimate dealing with hundreds of years at the minimum, Magnus is back on Prospero being mopey. Which makes me think the Emperor caught him buying a ticket for a shuttle and scolded him for not going back home the way he came. I thought it was a projection, rather than teleportation
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Aug 30, 2013 00:58
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It was indeed astral projection.
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Aug 30, 2013 00:59
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Then I totally misread that whole segment and thank you both for the correction.
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Aug 30, 2013 00:59
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You know, one reason I really like ADB's work is that he spends time on lots of observances about the stuff going on in the setting, how people think about various parts of living in this goddamned crazy time. And as I'm reading some of his short stories now, I'm realizing that I like his shorts just as much as his "main" titles. It's like since he's not expected to have some giant plot to follow, he can just take it easy and write lots of great creative stuff. I'm reading his Blood and Fire right now, and goddamn if it isn't packed with tons of great observances and perspectives. “Take a child, allow it to develop without ever understanding the frailties of human weakness, and force it to grow through ingesting nothing but the virtues of obedience, loyalty, and combat prowess. Surround it in ceramite. Arm it with fire. Tell it that it answers to no authority beyond its equally powerful, equally unrestrained brothers. That is a Space Marine. Not a human trained to be a weapon, but a weapon with a human soul. When the humans look upon us and cannot tell us apart but for the markings on our armour, this is why. We are hollow men by comparison to their brief, ignited lives of high passion and the weak, vulnerable frenzy of emotion.”
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Aug 30, 2013 02:08
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Nephilm posted:Well it's Horus, the Warmaster and good friend of Russ, playing upon his weaknesses and expectations. I can see Horus, as Warmaster and the Emperor's proxy in the Great Crusade, talking Russ into killing Magnus for violating the strictures imposed by the Council of Nikaea, especially since Russ distrusted Magnus already. What I can't see is Horus talking Russ into disobeying the Emperor's direct orders to do this thing.
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Aug 30, 2013 03:24
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I really want Dembski-Bowden to be given the task of writing fluff for the codex books. It would be such an amazing leap in quality. Even if it was just the flavour quotes they put in little box outs.
Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Aug 30, 2013 |
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Aug 30, 2013 04:15
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Khizan posted:I can see Horus, as Warmaster and the Emperor's proxy in the Great Crusade, talking Russ into killing Magnus for violating the strictures imposed by the Council of Nikaea, especially since Russ distrusted Magnus already. Well the Emperor is pretty much stuck on the Golden Throne fighting a vicious, close battle against chaos after Magnus's little stunt, so he probably wouldn't have been able to contact Russ directly or even write a letter and would probably have just given the briefest of orders to someone like like the head custodian, Malcador, or Horus, trusting their judgment to spell out the specifics and actually hand out orders in his stead.
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Aug 30, 2013 04:27
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One Legged Cat posted:You know, one reason I really like ADB's work is that he spends time on lots of observances about the stuff going on in the setting, how people think about various parts of living in this goddamned crazy time. And as I'm reading some of his short stories now, I'm realizing that I like his shorts just as much as his "main" titles. It's like since he's not expected to have some giant plot to follow, he can just take it easy and write lots of great creative stuff. I'm reading his Blood and Fire right now, and goddamn if it isn't packed with tons of great observances and perspectives. That's really great, I love it. You're completely right about ADB, I especially like how observations in Emperor's Gift where Hyperion is confused about female sexuality. He notes that Bjorn can actually tell what beauty is and wonders where him and his brothers lost that ability. If you want to read a lot into it, it suggests that space marines are becoming less human with each generation.
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Aug 30, 2013 06:02
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Demiurge4 posted:That's really great, I love it. You're completely right about ADB, I especially like how observations in Emperor's Gift where Hyperion is confused about female sexuality. He notes that Bjorn can actually tell what beauty is and wonders where him and his brothers lost that ability.
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Aug 30, 2013 13:59
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I want to say there's some fluff about Astartes during the Heresy era being taken as adolescents, too. Talos was, I'm pretty sure, and I want to say Argel Tal was too though I might be thinking of something else. On the other hand it does seem that even if selection at adolescence was customary, they were a lot more flexible about adapting the process to work with older folks, or find alternate means of making them into the equivalent of Space Marines. This is reported as having been done with Kor Phaeron, some of the Order of Caliban such as Luther, and presumably if it was done to them it was done with some number of others as well. Finally, there's some evidence that says to me that even in M41, the process is less inflexible than the usual canon would have you believe. Arjac Rockfist was apparently famed as a blacksmith and as a giant, very strong man even before he was inducted into the Space Wolves, and Lukas the Trickster was apparently already a "near-legendary figure amongst Fenris's womanfolk" who'd scored with dozens of women in a single night; both of these seem highly improbable for a boy of twelve or thirteen, though the second less so, I guess. The fact that they are both Space Wolves would fit in with the hypothesis that the very young age is more a matter of successfully indoctrinating the initiate (much more of an issue in the post-Heresy imperium than in the pre-) than of actual biotechnological necessity; one can well imagine that in that case the Space Wolves would be one of the more likely chapters to say gently caress it and take an impressive warrior even if he was already in his twenties or whatever.
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Aug 30, 2013 14:57
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Yeah, you're right - Talos was a kid. But then again, the life-span on Nostromo was pretty short, so it might have been slim pickings for the Night Lords. Kor Phaeron was certainly an older guy when he attempted his transformation - his implants didn't take properly, so he's not a full fledged Space Marine. That implies that they were a little more lenient in terms of age (though you're not going to deny a Primarch if he wants his adopted dad to be a Space Marine too) in the time of the Legions.
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Aug 30, 2013 15:25
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And all of the wolves' oddities I'd honestly just chalk up to the Wolves being the Wolves. They're the only chapter that brews its own astartes-class alcohol, too. They do a lot of things differently from all other chapters, and a lot of those things seem to be based on retaining parts if their humanity that they deem important; drinking, laughing, brawling, oral history-keeping, tribal culture... It wouldn't surprise me if the parts of their brains that find beauty (or however you'd define it) weren't as completely mechanically shut off as their gene-cousins, either. As culturally human-oriented as the Salamanders are, I always felt the wolves have the most 'human' behaviors. As for a legend of the ladies potentially being 13 or something, who knows; I know I was a horny little bastard at that age, and if you're living on a frigid death world then hey, by living that long you're practically middle-aged by that point anyway, right? Better get busy now, because at any given time the ice could crack beneath your feet and spill forth a school of Flying Murderfish, thereby ending your bloodline. Good ol' Fenris.
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Aug 30, 2013 15:36
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JerryLee posted:This is reported as having been done with Kor Phaeron, some of the Order of Caliban such as Luther, and presumably if it was done to them it was done with some number of others as well. The older members of the Caliban Knights were augmented as far as humans can be, but were not given the full astartes treatment because of their age. This is pointed out when someone asks why some of the warriors are much smaller. Kor Phaeron is also not a true astartes, but rather a ridiculously augmented human strapped into massive terminator armour making him a match for a regular marine (and is looked on as a half-breed abomination by a lot of the legion). Of course, when it comes to fan-fourites like the wolves you get the 13th great company who were so bad rear end they survived implantation because WOLVES ARE AWESOME! And even the kids drink beer and fight everyone and get bitches because WOLVES ARE AWESOME! I suppose you can understand that a child raised in the harsh world of Caliban, the icy hell of Fenris or a brutal underhive would be the equivilent of a 21st century special forces soldier, but it's something that never quite feels right. As much as initiates in 40k would be killing machines by our standards, it still feels wrong when you read the Dark Angels novels and a 14 yearold is talking to a primarch and isn't soiling himself/lost in rapture/speachless/etc. I do like how the pre-heresy legions all adopted customs from their homeworlds to weed out applicants and they shunned the older terrans despite being gene brothers. Guys like Garro and Iacton never quite get the same welcome. Apart from the Lion, who can't wait to ditch that Caliban poo poo as soon as he gets the chance.
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Aug 30, 2013 15:37
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From what I understood, Phaeron was a "false Astartes" from a biological/anatomical standpoint, but he was still the equivalent of a Space Marine for any practical purposes. They gave him the job of leading an elite Terminator squad rather than just being a spiritual leader or whatever, and nothing I've read suggests that he couldn't cut the mustard, aside from some characters' disdain for him which again seemed to be based on the space marine equivalent of  rather than any practical criticism.edit: Back to the Wolves, it's entirely plausible that they are just more experienced with bioengineering than the other chapters due to their unique challenges in that regard. Also their aforementioned independent streaks and love for tradition; in general they seem like the First Founding legion that would have thrown the fewest of its babies out with the bathwater after the Heresy so they might well have some archaeotech that they aren't letting on. And finally, I would bet money that what GW had in mind when they described Lukas as a womanizer with hundreds of notches on his belt was much closer to him being selected when he was at least 18 or 21 or whatever, because the alternative, while we can all imagine it as plausible, isn't really something you put a point on in a mainstream franchise. 
JerryLee fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Aug 30, 2013 |
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Aug 30, 2013 15:40
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