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Iron Bars is awesome. I kind of forgot about him until just now. Can't wait until my reread gets back to him.
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Mar 2, 2014 02:55
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Aranan posted:Iron Bars is awesome. I kind of forgot about him until just now. Can't wait until my reread gets back to him. He was probably my favorite part of Midnight Tides, which is saying a lot. His appearances elsewhere in the series (read: Esslemont) were much less memorable.
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Mar 2, 2014 04:05
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Junk Science posted:He was probably my favorite part of Midnight Tides, which is saying a lot. His appearances elsewhere in the series (read: Esslemont) were much less memorable. The same can be said for pretty much all of the Crimson Guard. When they very rarely appear in Erikson's books, they're awesome. ICE's... v  v
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Mar 2, 2014 04:12
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I'm honestly surprised the Crimson Guard have any trouble at all with foes.
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Mar 2, 2014 05:30
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amuayse posted:Well one complaint I have is that the power levels of the Avowed are all over the place. Iron Bars was able to take down several gods and punch out Rhulad. Then he gets beat up by a random Seguleh. A god isn't naturally that powerful, they rely on worship for a lot of their strength and those were gods that had been buried and forgotten. Also, Seguleh are loving monsters.
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Mar 2, 2014 05:41
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Yeah, it really can't be stated enough how monstrous the Seguleh can get. The female one that Karsa manhandled basically had Fiddler and the other soldiers making GBS threads their pants and going out of their way not to antagonize her when they briefly met.
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Mar 2, 2014 06:31
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Sampatrick posted:I'm pretty sure the Seguleh are basically ascended based on how they act. There is nothing to support this and no reason to think so.
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Mar 2, 2014 17:24
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amuayse posted:I'm honestly surprised the Crimson Guard have any trouble at all with foes. Because if there's anything there books have shown you, it's that power always triumphs.
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Mar 2, 2014 17:27
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It's kind of hard to argue with "incredible fighting prowess" in the context of sword fighting.
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Mar 2, 2014 18:17
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Yeah. It's been shown that having incredible melee skills doesn't mean much in the face of tons of magic. Edit: Unless you have innate magic resistance. amuayse fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Mar 2, 2014 |
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Mar 2, 2014 20:07
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When did the Crimson Guard go up against tons of magic again
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Mar 2, 2014 22:24
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Habibi posted:There is nothing to support this and no reason to think so. Actually there is, people in the Malazan world become ascended by being worshipped by other people (or passing through certain warrens). The Seguleh are a society with a strict hierarchy where everyone below has to basically worship everyone above or be blendered. By that reasoning the top ranks of the seguleh are theoretically all ascended due to their fighting prowess being worshipped in their own society and abroad, much like Daseem Ultor was ascended by his fighting prowess being worshipped by the Malazans and Malazan enemies.
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Mar 3, 2014 00:05
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the least weasel posted:When did the Crimson Guard go up against tons of magic again Don't they have their own mages
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Mar 3, 2014 01:08
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Habibi posted:There is nothing to support this and no reason to think so. Isn't there a quote in ICE's books that says there are "two races on the verge of ascendancy..."
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Mar 3, 2014 02:38
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Xachariah posted:Actually there is, people in the Malazan world become ascended by being worshipped by other people (or passing through certain warrens). The Seguleh are a society with a strict hierarchy where everyone below has to basically worship everyone above or be blendered. People in the Malazan world ascend through several dozen different possible means, of which one is worship (and Stormy and Gesler didn't ascend in Thyrlan, though it seems to have started the process), but there is nothing to suggest it always results in ascendancy. Regardless, I don't see any validity in representing Seguleh society as a chain of worship. Its organization is more in the mold of a militaristic meritocracy than anything with worship or deification, and consequently challenging those above you is encouraged (trying to stab those who outrank you is an odd way to worship). Finally, IIRC the worship of Ultor had to do not just with his martial skills, but also with the philosophy he preached to and instilled in the people he led, the fact that he was made a Knight in House Death, and the events surrounding the death of his daughter (leading to him becoming the Lord of Tragedy). His fighting prowess was, arguably, far from a major component of his ascension. I could see an argument for the old First to have been an ascendant, perhaps, as the reverence Seguleh have for that position borders on worship (and there are bits in that ICE book that imply a greater power than a simple warrior [no matter how skilled] would wield). Spermy Smurf posted:Isn't there a quote in ICE's books that says there are "two races on the verge of ascendancy..." That sounds familiar, yes. But why the Seguleh? Habibi fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Mar 3, 2014 |
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Mar 3, 2014 05:31
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Because the Seguleh are regarded by literally everyone from Anomander Rake to Envy/Spite to be total badasses of the highest calibre? Because a fairly high ranked Seguleh fights Tool to a standstill in a fight that seems to leave the Seguleh not megafucked the way you'd think a mortal vs. Tool would end up. There's actually a lot of evidence for it, though nothing entirely direct. It's all about levels of power and what Ascendancy means in this series. A pure mortal would've had limbs shattered/broken actually trying to fight Anomander Rake. Several Seguleh fought him without exploding into a cloud of viscera.
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Mar 3, 2014 07:28
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I wouldn't mind a book just dedicated to the Seguleh. All of the parts that involved them were bad rear end and engaging. Also, I loved Iron Bars and Esslemont did kind of make my experience with him more lackluster and whiny. That being said, I still got excited reading about him and hope for better tales in the future. Why isn't the second Forge of Darkness out yet?!
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Mar 3, 2014 08:31
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Who is the highest ranked Seguleh that we know about? Rake was technically in the top ten I think even though he didn't acknowledge it.
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Mar 3, 2014 08:38
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Dassem Ultor becomes the first in OST.
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Mar 3, 2014 08:41
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I think Rake defeated up to the seventh, and Mok, who traveled with Toc and Tool and Envy, was 3rd.
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Mar 3, 2014 08:51
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We meet the top 10 (and others) Seguleh in one of Esselmonts books. The books aren't top notch, but if you havent read them, you should simply because it's in the same universe.
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Mar 3, 2014 14:08
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Tooter posted:I wouldn't mind a book just dedicated to the Seguleh. All of the parts that involved them were bad rear end and engaging. Also, I loved Iron Bars and Esslemont did kind of make my experience with him more lackluster and whiny. That being said, I still got excited reading about him and hope for better tales in the future. You want to read Orb, Sceptre, Throne, where the Seguleh is elaborated on. Not to spoil anything, but they are hardly ascendants and in some ways definite technophobes. I also can't recall any Seguleh mages, which leaves them unprotected to a whole lot of stuff. Also, Esslemont leaves us all wanting. I'm looking forward to Assail, but also dreading it in a way.
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Mar 3, 2014 14:49
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Cardiac posted:You want to read Orb, Sceptre, Throne, where the Seguleh is elaborated on. This is the book where they said that the Moranth and the Seguleh were two races on the verge of Ascendacy So I'm not sure where you get that...
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Mar 3, 2014 15:26
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nucleicmaxid posted:Because the Seguleh are regarded by literally everyone from Anomander Rake to Envy/Spite to be total badasses of the highest calibre? quote:There's actually a lot of evidence for it, though nothing entirely direct. It's all about levels of power and what Ascendancy means in this series. A pure mortal would've had limbs shattered/broken actually trying to fight Anomander Rake. Several Seguleh fought him without exploding into a cloud of viscera. This is an enormous assumption. Where did you find your evidence for what happened to the Seguleh Rake fought? IIRC all we know is he came to their island, got attacked by everyone and their mother because he didn't show any deference, and had to leave when he realized that he was slaughtering them wholesale and would have had to depopulate their little island otherwise. Yeah, I don't buy it. The Seguleh are incredible swordsmen, but there is nothing suggesting they're anything beyond that. e: Karsa nonchalantly shattered the wrists of the Eleventh, and then nearly shat himself when he saw Rake fight. I think it's safe to say that if Seguleh bodies weren't exploding when Rake fought them, it's because he didn't want a huge drycleaning bill. Spermy Smurf posted:This is the book where they said that the Moranth and the Seguleh were two races on the verge of Ascendacy So I'm not sure where you get that... Habibi fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Mar 3, 2014 |
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Mar 3, 2014 15:48
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Habibi posted:e: Karsa nonchalantly shattered the wrists of the Eleventh, and then nearly shat himself when he saw Rake fight. I think it's safe to say that if Seguleh bodies weren't exploding when Rake fought them, it's because he didn't want a huge drycleaning bill. That sounds like an enormous assumption in return. Honestly to me it's rather indicative of relativity and general vaguery, and I'm guessing the answer is there is no answer because Erikson himself doesn't know.
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Mar 3, 2014 16:01
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Habibi posted:You have the exact passage? No, I dont have the passage. I'm not even sure it was in OST anymore. I'm googling and cant find anything. It was just an offhand comment by someone saying something like "Holy gently caress these two races are on the verge of ascending" Edit: and since I only have paperbacks, I am unable to search  Edit2: With Rake and the Seguleh there was someone who said he had to run away into a warren because they kept coming at him and wouldnt let him catch his breath. Spermy Smurf fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Mar 3, 2014 |
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Mar 3, 2014 16:26
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I don't think we actually got any descriptions of Rake's battles with the Seguleh did we? All we know is that he showed up there because he was like "eh I"m gonna go check this place out", people kept attacking him and he defeated them until he got annoyed and said "this is dumb" and left. For all we know he could have been splattering them all over the place, it's not like that would have kept the Seguleh from attacking him again. They actually seem like they'd be an incredibly boring culture to explore in a book Also I think how easily Mok was enthralled and controlled by Envy is pretty telling. Without mages of their own or some kind of magic resistance they're still pretty helpless in the face of a magic wielder (then again Envy isn't your normal mage, but whatever) e: on the subject of Rake, the end of Toll the Hounds is ridiculous and underscores how ridiculously powerful Rake is. I'm not really sure if there's another character in that series that matches up to Rake, despite how in some ways he's a bit of a cliche (or something, I can't quite find the right word) Levitate fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Mar 3, 2014 |
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Mar 3, 2014 16:30
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e: ^^^ explicitly, Draconus is supposed to be about his equal.the least weasel posted:That sounds like an enormous assumption in return. It was actually an exaggerated hypothesis, as I'm sure Rake isn't particularly concerned with his drycleaning bill, and we don't actually know what he did to all those Seguleh. But given - as you point out - the chain of relativity, it makes more sense that he would have pulped every Seguleh he faced than that they would be able to block an attack of his without suffering terrible damage. Habibi fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Mar 3, 2014 |
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Mar 3, 2014 16:38
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I didn't really think you were serious about his drycleaning bill but thank you for clarifying. Why does that make sense though? My memory is admittedly not the greatest but how many instances of Anomander Rake swordfighting anybody have we actually seen? I just don't know what from that sequence indicated that Rake was actively holding back, or even doing his utmost. It feels moot because we're not told one way or another. I still believe that as with most things in the Malazan Book of the Fallen series It Just Is Because. Granted, that doesn't make for a very interesting foundation for discussion. 
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Mar 3, 2014 16:53
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the least weasel posted:I didn't really think you were serious about his drycleaning bill but thank you for clarifying. Why does that make sense though? My memory is admittedly not the greatest but how many instances of Anomander Rake swordfighting anybody have we actually seen? I just don't know what from that sequence indicated that Rake was actively holding back, or even doing his utmost. It feels moot because we're not told one way or another. I still believe that as with most things in the Malazan Book of the Fallen series It Just Is Because. Granted, that doesn't make for a very interesting foundation for discussion. I'm not really sure what you're asking with regards to him holding back or not. All I'm saying, to the poster who suggested certain unknowable details of his fight with the Seguleh, that based on what we've seen, Rake's physical strength surpasses even Karsa, who easily shattered a high ranked Seguleh's wrists, and as such it doesn't make sense that Rake wouldn't have taken a proportionally even greater physical toll on them (barring that he was holding back) - to say nothing of his speed. And, more generally, that using his encounter with the Seguleh as support for their potential ascendancy is probably unhelpful, because odds are he would have mowed through them like a drat wood chipper whether they were ascendants or not. e: as further support, Rake swings a sword that, when he takes it off, is shown to weigh enough to squeeze moisture out of stone. I imagine that many of the Seguleh he faced were alerted to his presence by the sight of their colleagues flying overhead and off into the horizon. Habibi fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Mar 3, 2014 |
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Mar 3, 2014 17:24
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Yeah, Envy did mention in MoI that the Tiste Andii would just pragmatically blast the Seguleh to pieces if they weren't interested in fighting hand-to-hand.
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Mar 3, 2014 17:43
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Haha, fair enough. Good point. I should point out that I'm in no way defending the position that the Seguleh as a race are ascended or close to it. Mainly I'm just irritated with the haphazard nature of Erikson's descriptions of "power" and "skill".
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Mar 3, 2014 17:45
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the least weasel posted:Haha, fair enough. Good point. I should point out that I'm in no way defending the position that the Seguleh as a race are ascended or close to it. Mainly I'm just irritated with the haphazard nature of Erikson's descriptions of "power" and "skill". I sort of like it. In his world, there are many paths to power, and power in and of itself is shown to rarely be the solution or end-all-be-all that it's often represented as or considered to be. I wouldn't use the word 'haphazard' so much as 'highly variable.' And fwiw, I think he does a mostly good job of differentiating levels of power and skill in a stupidly complex world - it's just not always explicit.
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Mar 3, 2014 18:02
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I never really got what happens when you join the Ascendant club. I know you get immortality, increased strength/agility, sometimes a place in the deck/tiles, and a complimentary coffee mug and jacket. Anything else? The ability to cause convergences?
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Mar 3, 2014 18:21
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amuayse posted:I never really got what happens when you join the Ascendant club. I know you get immortality, increased strength/agility, sometimes a place in the deck/tiles, and a complimentary coffee mug and jacket. Anything else? The ability to cause convergences? I don't think that ascending is necessarily a "level you reach and then you get more powers!" but almost more of a point where you have become powerful enough to be considered ascended. It's not really spelled out though... e: I mean I feel like a lot of this talk is reducing the Malazan universe down into a RPG where you have stats and titles and so and so has a better sword skill than this other guy, etc, when really it's more complex than that and Eriksson delights in turning the "this guy is the most powerful!" thing on its head throughout the series. And my comment about Rake and his power really had more to do with his will and determination (which also sound like RPG stats...) and what he plans and accomplishes at the end of Toll the Hounds. It seemed that wielding Dragnipur was also a lot more than just "hey this sword is heavy you gotta have lots of muscles to wield it!" and there was a huge mental component to it that Rake carried with apparent ease that would leave most others crushed Levitate fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Mar 3, 2014 |
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Mar 3, 2014 18:30
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Habibi posted:You have the exact passage? This is the closest I found, which is from a Seguleh's POV: Page 539 posted:A pity [the Moranth's] ambitions and those of Darujhistand clashed. But then, is that not always the way between any two ascendant peoples? I wouldn't call that conclusive, not least because "ascendant" is not capitalized.
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Mar 3, 2014 21:53
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Levitate posted:. It seemed that wielding Dragnipur was also a lot more than just "hey this sword is heavy you gotta have lots of muscles to wield it!" and there was a huge mental component to it that Rake carried with apparent ease that would leave most others crushed Yes, absolutely. But at the same time, mental components don't make stone sweat. Re: ascendancy, I forget who it was (Kalam?) who hypothesized about it, but at its core it makes you tougher and harder to kill. This can be a question of physical might (Gesler and Stormy) or will (the Avowed of the CG) or whatever.
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Mar 3, 2014 21:56
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So when it does come to brute strength, Icarium or Ultor are the top right? But they both have their share of mental problems as well.
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Mar 3, 2014 22:14
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Habibi posted:Yes, absolutely. But at the same time, mental components don't make stone sweat. Apsalar and Paran had a chat about it.
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Mar 3, 2014 22:28
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amuayse posted:So when it does come to brute strength, Icarium or Ultor are the top right? But they both have their share of mental problems as well. I imagine that when it comes to brute strength, someone like Brood or Rake (or now Draconus) represent the top echelon, though I guess that depends on where you draw the line between ascendant and god. Also, Icarium gets knocked the gently caress out by Karsa.
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Mar 3, 2014 22:34
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