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*Sits down to play Starcraft* Supply limit? What the hell is this? And nukes cost resources!!?? Way to support single-player gamers, Blizzard!!!! lmao
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Feb 10, 2020 21:58
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Jokes aside, implementing a "Casual Mode" that was still largely achievement-eligible would probably do wonders for cheering up the player community.
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Feb 10, 2020 22:01
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Ah yes chomp, love your hot take posts  How are you able to so successfully channel someone that is really dumb and misunderstands the posts they're responding to it seems like a very well crafted thing you have going on there [edit]Shifting the limits to the in game resources is what most 4x games do, given that "energy" and "minerals" and "alloys" exist and ships have upkeep as do starbases, it's a fascinating thing to see the implication that's casual poo poo for nubs. And uh yeah, Stellaris is definitely a 20 minute competitive RTS like Starcraft
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Feb 10, 2020 22:01
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Feb 10, 2020 22:06
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Best Friends posted:Why should I check a box for my pops to resettle rather than the opposite? Is wanting to micromanage all the pops really the default user behavior? I think PDX might have hired too many superfans to understand that most people don't want their games to be data entry & genocides. That's basic design practice 101, checkboxes should activate behaviors when checked; Paradox is doing that correctly. Then that checkbox can be checked by default, probably on the basis of an empire's civics (e.g. maybe Authoritarians don't have the box checked at game start)
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Feb 10, 2020 22:15
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Why is doing stuff in this game so fiddly? Can they stop balancing for multiplayer and make the core gameplay actually entertaining? I would like to see an incarnation of this design that got rid of starbase caps, removed fleet size caps, dumped influence cost for claiming sectors (why is this in the game), make it so you can build as many megaprojects as you want, give colossus the ability to nuke a planet instantly with maybe a one week cooldown. Most of those features are important for the singleplayer gameplay Starbase caps are good, can you imagine how "fun" it would be to have to siege a star fortress in literally every AI-held system? That would suck Doom stacks are a chronic problem in the 4X genre, fleet size caps are a good thing in that they discourage doom stacks without entirely preventing them. Influence stretches out the early expansion game, which is good and important because otherwise the cap is based purely on alloy production and hyperlane access, both of which come down to the quality of one's starting location. The galaxy is going to fill up either way, there's no reason to accelerate that process. It also prevents people from flying out and claiming key systems early at no cost while still letting the player bunny hop less-good systems at additional cost Uncapping megaprojects would be fine, I don't really know why you can only build 1 Dyson Sphere. A Colossus with no charge time would make it too easy to blow up primary production planets with no ability to stop it. Like you could literally jump in and nuke someone's capital before they can even react; that is game-breaking, even fallen empires would be trivialized if you can do this. Just set the difficulty to Cadet if you don't want any challenge, use the console to give yourself infinite influence, etc.
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Feb 10, 2020 22:34
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Starbases cost money, time, and resources to build and maintain. If an AI built a billion starbases that has an opportunity cost both up front and on an ongoing basis. They are not free once you remove the cap. Caps also prevents the player from going starbase heavy if they so choose. Fleets cost money, time, and resources to build and maintain. If an AI builds a giant fleet I think it would be interesting to have races that have good combat bonuses due to race selection choices and actually present a real threat from a "what am I going to do about this race that has a ginormo econ and fleet" vs the current "ah yes the AI can't outpace me significantly because of caps" Influence costs are there to slow down early game growth. Why? Let the player and the AI fight it out and claim critical systems and do all those shenanigans, instead of stopping them pre emptively. In that case, the player can use their superior decision making to attack the AI. In the current case, being influence constrained removes that ability. A colossus is an endgame unit that requires teching and constructing them. If they greatly accelerate the ability to destroy planets and wage war at the point that they emerge, that's great. The idea to accelerate the pace and lethality of warfare in the midgame and lategame where it tends to bog down seems like a good thing. Again SOTS has really interesting interplay between the races and they have resources, time, and opportunity cost as the limiting resource. I think Stellaris has enough gates with construction times, tech times, build times, and resource costs that removing these caps wouldn't somehow trivialize the game or make it more casual, just more interesting and open 
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Feb 10, 2020 22:41
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Starbases cost money, time, and resources to build and maintain. If an AI built a billion starbases that has an opportunity cost both up front and on an ongoing basis. They are not free once you remove the cap. Caps also prevents the player from going starbase heavy if they so choose. All of the things you are bitching about are in place for a reason (except Megatructure caps). How much bitching would you do if the AI declared war on you while you were distracted, jumped a planet cracker in and nuked your capital before you could react? You'll reply and say "not at all" but we all know it to be a lie.
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Feb 10, 2020 22:46
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:"Lets ignore these artificial but sensible limiters that were put in place due to how lovely the game would be without them because I do not like them and cannot comprehend why they are there". I don't understand why asking "hey, it would be cool to see a variation of this game that has these changes, is there a mod that does this" would get perceived as 'bitching' I do think it would be interesting if the AI in stellaris could present a credible threat, to where those kinds of things you describe like the capital being nuked actually happened. You'd have to actually plan for that and build a fortress starbase there (instead of the usual shipyard heavy stuff) and consider stationing a fleet or how to deal with such incursions. I enjoyed it in SOTS when like the Hivers would declare war on me and start sending fleet after fleet through gateships which was a giant mess to deal with. Or running into nasty Tarkas with energy shields that make them immune to my weapons and scrambling to see if I can refit something to deal with them before they conquer a bunch of planets. I find 4x games where the AI opponents can actually threaten me with a loss interesting, and I think removing these caps might even help the AI do so. [edit]It is odd that people talk about the game being stagnant but react with such hostility to people that simply mention ways things could be different
Ham Sandwiches fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Feb 10, 2020 |
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Feb 10, 2020 22:51
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I appreciate that you guys are breaking down why Ham's post was bad. I was just gonna make fun of him and call it. Thanks for doing the hard work that others (me) don't want to do!
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Feb 10, 2020 22:52
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Chomp8645 posted:I appreciate that you guys are breaking down why Ham's post was bad. I was just gonna make fun of him and call it. Thanks for doing the hard work that others (me) don't want to do!  Pointing out unnecessarily fiddly things in stellaris is shooting fish in a barrel. It's impressive seeing someone miss.
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Feb 10, 2020 22:55
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Ham Sandwiches posted:I enjoyed it in SOTS when like the Hivers would declare war on me and start sending fleet after fleet through gateships which was a giant mess to deal with. That's an exxxxxxttttttrrrrrrrreeeeeemmmmmeeeeelllllyyyyyy different situation than the instant-Colossus you were asking for. Hivers have to slowboat to wherever they're going first, and even then it takes a whole turn to set up the gate, so you have all the time in the world to prepare for them to invade your planets. Yes, if you gently caress up the initial invasion and let them establish their gate, you're hosed, but it's a far cry from "Colossus with Jump Drive -> oops where'd my planet go".
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Feb 10, 2020 22:57
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What Ham is suggesting is already largely implemented into the game in different ways, so I don't know why people are pretending that it's out of left field. The crises basically use those "Total War" rules, and people don't complain that it's game-breaking. Starbase caps are already fairly soft, and basically just come down to being able to meet the increased energy requirements when going over the cap. Fleet size caps are more a convenience issue, since you can already go well over naval cap and just have fleets follow each other. The Megaprojects and the Colossus limitations are pretty artificial and nothing would change if they were removed - by the time you've gotten to them you're already on your fifth victory lap. And again, the crises have fairly similar mechanics. There's all sorts of ways to get around the claims interface, so that's no big deal. It might not be your cup of tea, but implementing some kind of mode where a lot of these limitations are removed and planets are largely productive and self-governing would be pretty reasonable.
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Feb 10, 2020 23:03
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Zurai posted:That's an exxxxxxttttttrrrrrrrreeeeeemmmmmeeeeelllllyyyyyy different situation than the instant-Colossus you were asking for. Hivers have to slowboat to wherever they're going first, and even then it takes a whole turn to set up the gate, so you have all the time in the world to prepare for them to invade your planets. Yes, if you gently caress up the initial invasion and let them establish their gate, you're hosed, but it's a far cry from "Colossus with Jump Drive -> oops where'd my planet go". Well since it seems like it's time to conclude this discussion, I'll just ask whether you feel that Colossus in their current form do anything much? In my experience a typical empire may have 20-50 planets by the time colossus come into play and that you may fight 3-4 other factions after you get them. I just never see them do anything. Legit asking if others do. Second, I understand that the usual posters have banded together to stop the spread of dangerous heresy, so I applaud folks for stepping up and making sure that such discussions are dealt with
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Feb 10, 2020 23:04
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Well since it seems like it's time to conclude this discussion, I'll just ask whether you feel that Colossus in their current form do anything much? In my experience a typical empire may have 20-50 planets by the time colossus come into play and that you may fight 3-4 other factions after you get them. I just never see them do anything. Legit asking if others do. Ham, you've been posting in this thread for long enough that you're one of the usual posters too.
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Feb 10, 2020 23:06
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Aethernet posted:Ham, you've been posting in this thread for long enough that you're one of the usual posters too. I drop in from time to time, make a post throwing out takes, and generally get mobbed by people that are looking to dunk rather than discuss. It seems to be the usual state of affairs. I appreciate that Kaal got what I was saying and yeah that was the gist of what I was suggesting, that the AI may be impeded by these caps that generally aren't super impactful of the gameplay but do seem to affect diversity on given runs. I understand it's an unpopular take.
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Feb 10, 2020 23:09
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Is there a way to tweak, or adjust, a sector you wish to release as a vassal? Pre Le Guin, I used to play as authoritarian spiritual enlighteners, uplifting pre-sentients, or primitives, as then releasing that race as a vassal to my empire, tweaking the individual sectors so that I still had territorial access to all of them via a lobg corridor... In my recent game, I captured a bunch of planets from some fanatic purifiers, turned them to my cause, and would like to release their ancient capital as a vassal - but the only way to do that involves making a sector from said capital - which expands the sector 4 jumplanes away into some gaia planets I do not want to give to them.. . Is there any way I can manually adjust, or provide space, to the sector before I release it as a vassal? I cannot seem to find the way to tweak sectors. I know it was there pre le guin, could it be a mod conflict?
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Feb 10, 2020 23:26
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Kaal posted:What Ham is suggesting is already largely implemented into the game in different ways, so I don't know why people are pretending that it's out of left field. The crises basically use those "Total War" rules, and people don't complain that it's game-breaking. Starbase caps are already fairly soft, and basically just come down to being able to meet the increased energy requirements when going over the cap. Fleet size caps are more a convenience issue, since you can already go well over naval cap and just have fleets follow each other. The Megaprojects and the Colossus limitations are pretty artificial and nothing would change if they were removed - by the time you've gotten to them you're already on your fifth victory lap. And again, the crises have fairly similar mechanics. There's all sorts of ways to get around the claims interface, so that's no big deal. It might not be your cup of tea, but implementing some kind of mode where a lot of these limitations are removed and planets are largely productive and self-governing would be pretty reasonable. Being hiver swarmed is fun because all the steps leading up to being hiver swarmed are engaging. Pre-farcasting you've either hosed up your defence with plenty of warning or engaged in one or more flag defence wargame exercises while you desperately try to make them run out of deployable gates before you run out of reinforcements. Instafiring colossi, bot so much.
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Feb 10, 2020 23:30
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Guigui posted:Is there a way to tweak, or adjust, a sector you wish to release as a vassal? You can't manually tweak sectors anymore, but you might have luck creating the Vassal Sector, then creating a second Gaian Sector with a capital that is intentionally far enough away to include the Gaian planets but not the parts you want to give away. Once you've created the vassal, you can return Gaian Sector to its previous capital. Splicer posted:Crises are game breaking. That's the point. They're the exceptions that prove the rule, an all or nothing total victory or be wiped out challenge. If every empire runs off those rules then games would last a couple of decades as the first person to decisively win a war snowballs into wiping out the galaxy. The soft caps on starbases and fleets are the same kind of throttle on runaway expansion. The problem with megaprojects is they come to late to be meaningful, the solution isn't infinite megaprojects it's earlier, more engaging megaprojects. I've played in plenty of games where there were lots of exterminator empires, and it's perfectly fine. In my WH40k games everyone pushes against everyone else, there's lots of back and forth, and it's fine to play (though man watch out if you crank up the difficulty to Grand Admiral). Turning that into a mode where you could play normally but could still paint the map without jumping through a bunch of hoops would be perfectly fine. But I don't think that the devs have any interest in that, and Ham has already been shouted down, so there's probably no point in talking about it. Kaal fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Feb 10, 2020 |
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Feb 10, 2020 23:37
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Ham Sandwiches posted:I drop in from time to time, make a post throwing out takes, and generally get mobbed by people that are looking to dunk rather than discuss. It seems to be the usual state of affairs. Per your response to my prior post, saying "hey, it would be cool to see a variation of this game that" gives Instant World Cracking is a terrible, absurd ask. There is nothing to debate here, or anything new to be said by me here. Its just a stupid idea. Saying "hey, it would be cool to see a variation of this game that" has no starbase limit is complete nonsense because, as you pointed out, they have an energy upkeep, cost alloys, ect. The AI is gifted way more energy and alloys than players earn because it uses them less efficiently than players. This means AI space would be FILLED with starbases, which would be AWFUL. It means I could then fill my space with starbases if I wanted, which, I dunno, doesnt sound like fun to me because Starbases are so fiddly to manage. Saying "hey, it would be cool to see a variation of this game that" removed influence cost for claiming "Sectors" (by which you mean "Systems"; "Sectors" are a different mechanic) is dumb for the same reasons as above; the AI is gifted more of everything so the AI would expand faster and more efficiently than the player thanks to the free resources it is gifted and because of its perfect micro of its constructors. This means players would be hemmed in and face an even tougher battle to get going and would be a horrible slog because then you would have to claim all that space, too! Saying "hey, it would be cool to see a variation of this game that" removed fleet caps is also incredibly stupid because, as you pointed out, they have an energy upkeep, cost alloys, ect. The AI is gifted way more energy and alloys than players earn because it uses them less efficiently than players. This means the AI would have MASSIVE fleets that would NEVER STOP GROWING BECAUSE THERE WOULD BE NOTHING TO STOP IT FROM GROWING. One thing I love about this thread is the debates that go on in here. I've debated my own bad points and admit when I've said something dumb or had a bad idea. Give us something to debate and people will debate you. Say something stupid and you get dunked on. I have even agreed with you about some things in here and in other threads, but in this thread you seem to have some *hot* takes that just seem like you put zero thought into them, then you start acting persecuted when people call you out on saying stupid poo poo.
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Feb 10, 2020 23:45
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Ham Sandwiches posted:It is odd that people talk about the game being stagnant but react with such hostility to people that simply mention ways things could be different I'm definitely nodding my head at this. It's a weird hill for people to die on. Try making a Total War game where you and most/all of the players are some form of exterminator, set the tech/tradition cost to .25x, put the difficulty and crisis up as high as you're willing to go, take the Master Builder's Perk and the Architecture edict to increase your megaproject build limit to three, and see what happens. It won't empower the Colossus, but sadly those things are mostly just vanity projects anyway and the strongest thing about them is that they let you ignore the claims interface. The only thing I can think of would be to reduce the number of planets and systems, which would effectively mean the Colossus would have more of an impact when it fired. Check out my list of themed empires, you'll find plenty of dangerous ones in there: https://pastebin.com/BPfdm3GP Kaal fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Feb 11, 2020 |
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Feb 10, 2020 23:59
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Kaal posted:Try making a Total War game where you and most/all of the players are some form of exterminator, set the tech/tradition cost to .25x, put the difficulty and crisis up as high as you're willing to go, take the Master Builder's Perk and the Architecture edict to increase your megaproject build limit to three, and see what happens. It won't empower the Collossus, but sadly those things are mostly just vanity projects anyway and the strongest thing about them is that they let you ignore the claims interface. Yeah thx for the tips, I'll try these suggestions since I've been kinda feeling a Stellaris run again. Maybe even poke around in the defines and see how horrific those dangerous ideas would be to test out.
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Feb 11, 2020 00:02
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Kaal posted:The Megaprojects and the Colossus limitations are pretty artificial and nothing would change if they were removed - by the time you've gotten to them you're already on your fifth victory lap. This is the heart of the problem. Colossus timers seem dumb because by the time you have them, the AI will realistically have no possible hope of stopping you. But if the late game was competitive at all (or if you're playing MP) then those timers are extremely necessary. Guigui posted:Is there a way to tweak, or adjust, a sector you wish to release as a vassal? Not manually no. You can try shifting sector capitals around, doing that re-calcs the borders and you might be able to do something that way. Barring that all you can do is delete your starbase to un-own the system, then release and re-claim.
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Feb 11, 2020 00:02
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Kaal posted:I'm definitely nodding my head at this. It's a weird hill for people to die on. Exterminators don't have an instant-firing colossus, unlimited fleet cap, or 0-influence starbases no matter how many map settings you change. Are you just trying to be contrarian for its own sake? Because this makes it seem as though you didn't even really read Ham's suggestions The cap on megastructures is maybe the one thing that I think everyone can agree would be fine, because having 2 dyson spheres shouldn't be a much bigger deal than having 1.
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Feb 11, 2020 02:21
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Ham Sandwiches posted:I drop in from time to time, make a post throwing out takes, and generally get mobbed by people that are looking to dunk rather than discuss. It seems to be the usual state of affairs. We get lots of good ideas in this thread and then sometimes we get a Ham Sandwiches post where the ideas are almost all half-baked stream of consciousness suggestions that you spent no time thinking about. Like you're so close to realizing that maybe you're the one who's out of touch with the design of a game that you barely play, but then you double-down with posts like this one, stating "clearly it is everyone else who is wrong" when multiple people have made well-reasoned counterarguments that you simply ignore
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Feb 11, 2020 02:27
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QuarkJets posted:Exterminators don't have an instant-firing colossus, unlimited fleet cap, or 0-influence starbases no matter how many map settings you change. Kaal posted:I'm definitely nodding my head at this. It's a weird hill for people to die on. Ham Sandwiches posted:I don't understand why asking "hey, it would be cool to see a variation of this game that has these changes, is there a mod that does this" would get perceived as 'bitching' Splicer fucked around with this message at 08:02 on Feb 11, 2020 |
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Feb 11, 2020 07:45
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A marauder empire whose systems you have leveled can spawn raider fleets.
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Feb 12, 2020 19:15
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https://twitter.com/StellarisGame/status/1227928937822670853
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Feb 13, 2020 14:07
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Remain hype for origins
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Feb 13, 2020 14:45
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After playing SoaSE for a bit, I got the itch and reinstalled to try ironman. Game ended at 2275 after the 'Contacts' tab placed me as the highest powered non-fallen Empire (mea culpa, shoulda used a higher difficulty), but the thing that *really* struck out at me was how loving non-existent other empires are. Like, we've made first contact with an alien race, what do they have to say? Nothing. They don't want to talk, YOU can't really talk, you can't see their stuff running around (a sci ship icon does not count), it's just a blanket of quiet color sitting off to the side. No chatter, no personality, and their agendas are obscure up until they declare war. Yes, I know I can click through some menus and find some trade options or consequences-unknown "agreements", but that's not the same. Its like a placeholder mechanic from alpha that got given a .jpeg (lol paid-for-cosmetics DLC) and then called it a day. I don't build games for a living, and I can't articulate the details, but it's *wrong*. I'm mostly blind to the terrible UI by now (Up until I fire up an Endless game and just click around in sheer joy about how pretty everything is), but the other-empire thing really struck at me this time.
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Feb 13, 2020 15:41
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I find these Q&A dev diaries mostly unreadable. I preferred when they just summarised a game system.
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Feb 13, 2020 15:41
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Splicer posted:Remain hype for origins Yeah, if nothing else this is a big improvement to empire definition.
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Feb 13, 2020 15:42
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Gort posted:I find these Q&A dev diaries mostly unreadable. I preferred when they just summarised a game system. I think they're at the point right now where the update/dlc isnt ready to drop, but they've run out of new game systems to talk about. So this is just basically filler at this point.
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Feb 13, 2020 15:57
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Yeah Origins still look cool. Unbalanced but cool.
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Feb 13, 2020 16:09
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A lot of them are things that are previously civics or "you start on a (x)", though. I do like the nonstandard ones like ringworld and habitats. Scion start sounds really interesting (if easy mode)
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Feb 13, 2020 16:13
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PittTheElder posted:Yeah Origins still look cool. Unbalanced but cool.
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Feb 13, 2020 16:16
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I wonder why Agrarian Idyll is incompatible with so many of them though.
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Feb 13, 2020 16:19
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Splicer posted:Remain hype for origins Gort posted:I find these Q&A dev diaries mostly unreadable. I preferred when they just summarised a game system.
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Feb 13, 2020 16:32
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Origins are cool but... so low effort for most of it. Planetary diversity's unique planets submod has been doing this stuff since forever and honestly is better at it.
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Feb 13, 2020 16:44
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Are the pre-placed abandoned gateways an avenue for invasion into my territory? Do I need to bunker them up?
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Feb 14, 2020 03:39
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