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Lead out in cuffs posted:I suspect that'll have about the same likelihood of survival and future historical usefulness as Sumerian accounting tablets. So, very good?
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Mar 26, 2021 13:56
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Mr. Nice! posted:We have had goons as highly ranked in the military as O-5 and possibly O-6. No goon flag rank officers yet. I would not be surprised if there are a few GS-14+ goons on the civilian side. ...also why does the LoC archive our site if it can't archive the forums (or I suppose really it can archive everything that a non-user can see which is like 1/3 of the forums with a word filter)
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Mar 26, 2021 15:44
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DACK FAYDEN posted:...also why does the LoC archive our site if it can't archive the forums (or I suppose really it can archive everything that a non-user can see which is like 1/3 of the forums with a word filter) ok, i checked the place loc doesn't have an account, and so naturally also doesn't have the archives upgrade. so it can only access the same stuff that people who haven't logged in can. so it can see the front page and read newer threads. i managed to open a thread from the 2020, but not from 2002 or 2014. and my guess is that if the paywall is up when they archive pages, they can't archive even newer threads either looks like the clowns in congress have done it again
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Mar 26, 2021 16:53
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Goon project: kickstart an account (with archives upgrade) for the Library of Congress
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Mar 26, 2021 17:34
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Really, the answer for why do some places have so little surviving writing is that surviving writing is the exception. It's a miracle we have any ancient books from anywhere.
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Mar 26, 2021 18:58
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Yeah it's not due to any special effort that we have a ton of Sumerian stuff, it's the fortunate coincidence that clay was one of like two things the Sumerians had in abundance and if you try to burn clay writings they just last forever. On the subject of podcasts, I've been listening to the History of Egypt podcast (https://www.egyptianhistorypodcast.com/all-episodes/) and it's been real good (I'm up to 18th dynasty), but I am very far from an expert on Egypt and was wondering if this was one of those "sounds convincing but is actually crap" history podcasts. Any actual experts with an opinion?
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Mar 26, 2021 19:30
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I haven't listened to the podcast, but I got to go see the Giza pyramids and the red pyramid once when I took egyptology and holy gently caress they're amazing. Everyone knows they're giant mountains in the desert but you really have to see them to get just how impressive they are.
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Mar 26, 2021 19:33
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Tulip posted:Yeah it's not due to any special effort that we have a ton of Sumerian stuff, it's the fortunate coincidence that clay was one of like two things the Sumerians had in abundance and if you try to burn clay writings they just last forever. The host got his masters in Egyptian history and is pursuing his PhD. Latter episodes he has a few others in the field on to expound upon their own areas of interest.
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Mar 26, 2021 19:51
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Tulip posted:Yeah it's not due to any special effort that we have a ton of Sumerian stuff, it's the fortunate coincidence that clay was one of like two things the Sumerians had in abundance and if you try to burn clay writings they just last forever. Yeah, when the library of Ashurbanipal was burned down by the babylonians, scythians and medes it actually helped preserve the clay tablets it contained. Also, you really know how important you are when three different ethnic groups band together to destroy you.
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Mar 26, 2021 19:55
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Gaius Marius posted:The host got his masters in Egyptian history and is pursuing his PhD. Latter episodes he has a few others in the field on to expound upon their own areas of interest. Oh excellent. I'm about 60 episodes in and he hasn't had any other experts on which was part of why I was asking. Stuff like History of Vikings or the AskHistorians brings in third party historians all the time and I've usually taken as a good sign. Edgar Allen Ho posted:I haven't listened to the podcast, but I got to go see the Giza pyramids and the red pyramid once when I took egyptology and holy gently caress they're amazing. The oldest building I've personally been around couldn't have been older than like, 700s CE, old kingdom monuments just feels so wild to me. Alhazred posted:Yeah, when the library of Ashurbanipal was burned down by the babylonians, scythians and medes it actually helped preserve the clay tablets it contained. Also, you really know how important you are when three different ethnic groups band together to destroy you. The Scythians aren't even close to the other two, that's how much the Neo-Assyrians pissed everybody off.
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Mar 26, 2021 20:05
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How many clay tablets show evidence of having been dropped and glued back together? Like, being fireproof is one thing but imagine shattering half your tax papers.
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Mar 26, 2021 20:44
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I don't know about Mesopotamia, but I think in bronze age Greece at least evidence suggests that clay tablets were kept moist (or at least un-fired) and were intended to be reusable--all of the records and documents we have in linear B seem to represent a single year's worth of accounting. The working theory is that yearly sums would get transferred to scrolls or some other flammable material at the start of each new year, and when the palace burned down the temporary records got meticulously preserved while the permanent records all burned up. I say Greece but this is some specific city and I can't remember if it's Knossos or Pylos. Maybe it's both that showed this pattern.
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Mar 26, 2021 21:29
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cheetah7071 posted:I don't know about Mesopotamia, but I think in bronze age Greece at least evidence suggests that clay tablets were kept moist (or at least un-fired) and were intended to be reusable--all of the records and documents we have in linear B seem to represent a single year's worth of accounting. The working theory is that yearly sums would get transferred to scrolls or some other flammable material at the start of each new year, and when the palace burned down the temporary records got meticulously preserved while the permanent records all burned up. Yeah that's the case in Mesopotamia as well. Like they wouldn't waste fuel firing some student's papers, but we were lucky that some of their schools burned down in sieges or whatever so we've got a bunch of schoolwork preserved forever. A lot of what was preserved by time is pretty random, but sometimes we get good stuff. 
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Mar 26, 2021 21:48
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cheetah7071 posted:I don't know about Mesopotamia, but I think in bronze age Greece at least evidence suggests that clay tablets were kept moist (or at least un-fired) and were intended to be reusable--all of the records and documents we have in linear B seem to represent a single year's worth of accounting. The working theory is that yearly sums would get transferred to scrolls or some other flammable material at the start of each new year, and when the palace burned down the temporary records got meticulously preserved while the permanent records all burned up. huh, interesting
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Mar 26, 2021 21:56
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Alhazred posted:Yeah, when the library of Ashurbanipal was burned down by the babylonians, scythians and medes it actually helped preserve the clay tablets it contained. Also, you really know how important you are when three different ethnic groups band together to destroy you. Yeah after what he did to the Elamites, it's surprising it didn't happen sooner. quote:"Susa, the great holy city, abode of their gods, seat of their mysteries, I conquered. I entered its palaces, I opened their treasuries where silver and gold, goods and wealth were amassed... I destroyed the ziggurat of Susa. I smashed its shining copper horns. I reduced the temples of Elam to naught; their gods and goddesses I scattered to the winds. The tombs of their ancient and recent kings I devastated, I exposed to the sun, and I carried away their bones toward the land of Ashur. I devastated the provinces of Elam and on their lands I sowed salt." quote:For a distance of a month and twenty-five days' journey I devastated the provinces of Elam. Salt and sihlu I scattered over them... The dust of Susa, Madaktu, Haltemash and the rest of the cities I gathered together and took to Assyria... The noise of people, the tread of cattle and sheep, the glad shouts of rejoicing, I banished from its fields. Wild asses, gazelles and all kinds of beasts of the plain I caused to lie down among them, as if at home. There's a relief depicting this, which has what's believed to be captured Elamite nobles being forced to grind the bones of their ancestors to dust.
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Mar 26, 2021 21:58
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Wasn't familiar with the Greeks using clay tablets but I do know they used wax - when we've had the incredible fortune to find well-preserved Greek shipwrecks, in at least the one case I ever read up on we don't know what was on the manifest. We know there WAS a manifest, but it's wood board (like a clipboard) with a stylus and some faint wax residue. (not trying to say this is like, counter-evidence or anything, just the one data point I've got)
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Mar 26, 2021 21:59
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We have enough artistic depictions of wax tablets to know what they looked like. Reposting from ye olde wikipediae. Greek dude using what appears to be a Dell wax tablet.  Roman scribe with his tabs.
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Mar 26, 2021 22:02
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sullat posted:Yeah that's the case in Mesopotamia as well. Like they wouldn't waste fuel firing some student's papers, but we were lucky that some of their schools burned down in sieges or whatever so we've got a bunch of schoolwork preserved forever. A lot of what was preserved by time is pretty random, but sometimes we get good stuff. Iol what is happening in this sketch?
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Mar 26, 2021 22:09
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ChubbyChecker posted:huh, interesting it's funny what a contrast that is to wax tablets or well, more or less any other kind of archival process? "lasts longer when you set it on fire" is such a strange property it's kind of wild we have anything at all.
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Mar 26, 2021 22:12
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mycomancy posted:Iol what is happening in this sketch? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onfim
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Mar 26, 2021 22:13
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mycomancy posted:Iol what is happening in this sketch? i think, a man on a horse is using a spear or trident maybe? to stab the gently caress out of someone one the ground?
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Mar 26, 2021 22:13
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mycomancy posted:Iol what is happening in this sketch? That's Onfim! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onfim efb
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Mar 26, 2021 22:15
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I bet Onfim was a fuckin terror
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Mar 26, 2021 23:55
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mycomancy posted:Iol what is happening in this sketch? Onfim is on a horse, spearing somebody on the ground (I choose to believe it is his friend Danilo)
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Mar 27, 2021 00:11
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:Onfim is on a horse, spearing somebody on the ground (I choose to believe it is his friend Danilo) I always figured the guy on the ground was the teacher.
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Mar 27, 2021 00:13
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One of the interesting things there is that the drawing of the people has all the simplicity of a stick figure, but a completely different form. Of course it makes perfect sense that the "default" simplistic drawing of a human would be cultural but I'd never thought about it before.
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Mar 27, 2021 00:17
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cheetah7071 posted:One of the interesting things there is that the drawing of the people has all the simplicity of a stick figure, but a completely different form. Of course it makes perfect sense that the "default" simplistic drawing of a human would be cultural but I'd never thought about it before. Yeah, stick figures are drawn differently in East Asia today. Snowmen also only have two balls, not three.
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Mar 27, 2021 00:20
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I've seen plenty of people in America who have their own ethos towards stick figures. It's a thing that a lot of people can differ on or just make up their own version ad-hoc. There's no rules. That's also why it's important to remember with a lot of illustration from different eras that they had different ideas of how to draw, or even different goals in some aspects. I wonder sometimes how much some artists from the past even had the chance to practice.
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Mar 27, 2021 02:05
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Grand Fromage posted:Yeah, stick figures are drawn differently in East Asia today. Snowmen also only have two balls, not three. Hey man, it's really cold out.
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Mar 27, 2021 02:09
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Yeah the alternate stick figure method is really neato and clever.
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Mar 27, 2021 05:00
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children's stick figure drawings is a surprisingly widely studied field. it's not ancient history, but if you want to find out more about it google 'children’s tadpole drawings'
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Mar 27, 2021 11:20
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So I'm looking for two recommendations reading-wise: 1) Really any broad text on Bronze Age economics outside of Sumeria. I think I kind of get the Sumerian economy & finances but I'd like to see what's going on in Egypt or the Hittites or really just any of their neighbors. Egypt is the most interesting to me but knowing how I do things I'll probably want something on other societies not long after. Any sort of social history would also rule. 2) Gender and Hatshepsut. I'm in the long stretch on Hatshepsut in The Egyptian History podcast and the podcaster seems to be very, let's say 'confused,' when talking about Hatshepsut and gender. I'm really curious if there's been a recent deep dive on this particular topic from somebody who is more focused on the topic, or at least a strong lit review.
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Mar 27, 2021 17:26
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The article I posted earlier has an EXTENSIVE bibliography. https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2018/04/michael-hudson-origins-money-interest-palatial-credit-not-barter.html
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Mar 27, 2021 23:13
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Tulip posted:The Scythians aren't even close to the other two, that's how much the Neo-Assyrians pissed everybody off. I thought this too but I did some reading and they had recently conquered the empire of the Medes. Grand Fromage posted:I always figured the guy on the ground was the teacher. I see you have experience in the teaching field.
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Mar 27, 2021 23:22
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Weka posted:The article I posted earlier has an EXTENSIVE bibliography. It's a really good book, like legitimately the best, most gripping thing I've read in the last decade.
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Mar 27, 2021 23:24
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Onim's drawing is just the ancient equivalent of that one goon's bathroom sketch and it's perfect.
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Mar 28, 2021 00:33
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Weka posted:I see you have experience in the teaching field. Many years. All of it abroad with students who never seemed to grasp how much of their language I understood while they talked poo poo about me right in front of me.
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Mar 28, 2021 00:34
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Grand Fromage posted:Many years. All of it abroad with students who never seemed to grasp how much of their language I understood while they talked poo poo about me right in front of me. i guess some things are universal, domestic students also never seem to grasp how much of their language you understand while they talk poo poo about you right in front of you. no, kids, i'm not 80 years old i know internet slang
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Mar 28, 2021 01:00
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Tulip posted:So I'm looking for two recommendations reading-wise: Life and Society in the Hittite World by Trevor Bryce will be your best bet for Hittite social and economic history. I haven't read much of it, but its very well regarded. I have read Bryce's book The Kingdom of the Hittites, which is a political and diplomatic history of the Hittites, and it's very good and generally easy to follow, so I'm sure Life and Society is too. I haven't read enough about Egypt to give a good answer on that subject, but I'm sure someone else will be able to help there. CrypticFox fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Mar 28, 2021 |
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Mar 28, 2021 02:18
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CrypticFox posted:Life and Society in the Hittite World by Trevor Bryce will be your best bet for Hittite social and economic history. I haven't read much of it, but its very well regarded. I have read Bryce's book The Kingdom of the Hittites, which is a political and diplomatic history of the Hittites, and it's very good and generally easy to follow, so I'm sure Life and Society is too. I haven't read enough about Egypt to give a good answer on that subject, but I'm sure someone else will be able to help there. Oh gently caress yes thank you
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Mar 28, 2021 02:44
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