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Let me just say that Jesus gently caress I hate the way John Clements writes. Edit: I feel like this is veering towards a "no true rapier" sort of argument here, where "true rapier" becomes a super specific thing that doesn't actually... Exist, at all, really. Sure, people certainly had swords made that were absolutely unsuited for any sort of soldiering, no contest there. But generally speaking, I think you're taking this whole "made for a purpose" thing way too far. A longsword or a "cut and thrust" sword like Hey Gal posted above is very much a general purpose thing, not unlike a semiauto pistol you might buy today. For most dudes in the field and on the streets, it was just a sidearm. Siivola fucked around with this message at 11:18 on Feb 29, 2016 |
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Feb 29, 2016 10:33
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Siivola posted:Let me just say that Jesus gently caress I hate the way John Clements writes. I am willing to bet that people in the period we talked about argued about whether the best sidearm was a katzbalger/rapier/cut-and-thrust sword just as much as gun goons argue about 1911 vs Glock today.
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Feb 29, 2016 11:23
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Siivola posted:I feel like this is veering towards a "no true rapier" sort of argument here, where "true rapier" becomes a super specific thing that doesn't actually... Exist, at all, really. which goes with the proto-uniforms they wear, i guess. MikeCrotch posted:I am willing to bet that people in the period we talked about argued about whether the best sidearm was a katzbalger/rapier/cut-and-thrust sword just as much as gun goons argue about 1911 vs Glock today. i am also willing to bet this though. also horses and firearms. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Feb 29, 2016 |
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Feb 29, 2016 11:26
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MikeCrotch posted:I am willing to bet that people in the period we talked about argued about whether the best sidearm was a katzbalger/rapier/cut-and-thrust sword just as much as gun goons argue about 1911 vs Glock today.
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Feb 29, 2016 11:35
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Siivola posted:God yes. The only reason we know about George Silver is because he wrote two books about how unsafe and terrible (and un-British!) a weapon a thrusting sword is. There was a little moral panic in Elizabethan England over rapiers. In 1566 a law was passed banning rapiers (using that word specifically) above a certain length. Fencing schools were also heavily restricted. In addition, sumptuary laws start to clamp down on any sort of decoration on swords throughout Elizabeth's reign. There was a definite push-back against the emerging "sword culture".
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Feb 29, 2016 12:09
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HEY GAL posted:amusingly the word we use for most of these loving things (as long as they have two edges, etc) is proto-rapier and you know there was at least one jackass running around with his grandpa's longsword or whatever and would not shut the gently caress up about how it was clearly superior to how they make swords these days.
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Feb 29, 2016 13:32
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Siivola posted:Let me just say that Jesus gently caress I hate the way John Clements writes. his oral presentation skills are just as bad buddy
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Feb 29, 2016 16:39
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:his oral presentation skills are just as bad buddy I've never found them lacking in any of the events I've attended were he's taught. I'd say on par with many of the presenters in the greater HEMA community who have varying levels of public speaking skills.
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Feb 29, 2016 16:52
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HEY GAL posted:i felt like i had to post it, since there's so much bullshit in the PYF thread right now. Not from you. There's a PYF thread about swords?
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Feb 29, 2016 18:01
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MikeCrotch posted:I am willing to bet that people in the period we talked about argued about whether the best sidearm was a katzbalger/rapier/cut-and-thrust sword just as much as gun goons argue about 1911 vs Glock today. I get the feeling that people balls deep in dueling circles would argue about the local meta like a pair of starcraft players.
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Feb 29, 2016 20:20
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hard counter posted:I get the feeling that people balls deep in dueling circles would argue about the local meta like a pair of starcraft players. https://books.google.com/books/about/Men_and_Violence.html?id=q9XoamDrWpsC check out chapter four of this collection
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Feb 29, 2016 20:23
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people have been dorks forever  thanks for the future reading
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Mar 1, 2016 04:08
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Rule 1 of working-class Amsterdam knife fighting subculture is that you don't talk about working-class Amsterdam knife fighting subculture 
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Mar 1, 2016 11:29
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seriously, read that article. it's great, it's all dudes named Claas cutting the poo poo out of one another before the cops show up
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Mar 1, 2016 20:00
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I'll leave that here    Looks like a good way to set your codpiece on fire.
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Mar 1, 2016 22:06
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Oh hey, cannons and codpieces! I attended the Bay Area Renaissance Festival this past Saturday and brought my DSLR for pictures and video. There were two things of major interest to this thread: a black powder firearms demonstration and a landsknecht camp that did hourly combat training. Here's some photos and video of the training! The lesson when I came was unarmed defense against daggers (specifically mentioned as being for drunken brawls).           https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06mOURz_x-w Also, I got video of a 2.5 pound cannon (a 1/4 scale Napoleon cannon) and a reproduction 1830 Tower flintlock dragoon's pistol being fired. I had to balance the camera on my knee to film the cannon from so close while plugging my ears. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXIYWnqSyLY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTJHGjmcJXY
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Mar 2, 2016 00:18
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And just to complement that, I have pictures I took at last year's festival of the same training. One interesting picture toward the end is when the codpiece maniac grabs the training dagger by the blade and uses that to reach around and stab his attacker in the back. IMG_1849 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1850 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1851 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1852 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1853 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1858 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1860 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1861 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1863 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1865 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1871 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1872 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1873 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1874 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1875 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1876 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1877 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1878 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1879 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1880 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1881 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1882 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1883 by chitoryu15, on Flickr IMG_1884 by chitoryu15, on Flickr
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Mar 2, 2016 01:11
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I don't want to keep rehashing this topic but since Hegel might find the data interesting I just remembered a pair of Swedish Monarchs have a couple of their swords, both of which we might (and do) call rapiers, stored in museums with their dimensions recorded. I'm going to compare them to what the internet tells me about the average rapier from around the 1650s. One Swedish sword is thought to be battle ready while the other was recovered from a battle, both have the appearance of long thrusting swords. I don't know if you have data on tilly's rapier but you can compare if you like. Gustav Vasa's sword Overall length: 1088mm Blade length: 952mm Width at base: 35 mm Weight: 1390g Gustavus Adolphus' sword from Lützen Overall Length: 1156 mm Blade Length: 929 mm Width at base: 28 mm Weight: 1410 g. "Average" Rapier Overall Length: 1181 mm Blade Length: 983 mm Width at base: 25 mm Weight: 1020 g Sorry for the crude data, I would include finer details like cross section, taper but I don't think such data exists for an abstract average rapier. Anyway in this period it's not a difference so stark that it would be apparent on inspection but ultimately there's a ~40% difference in weight with no increase in length for 'war' swords. Across all specimens there's definitely a lot of overlap since I see some museum rapier specimens have weights of 1300g and over listed but then there's also these dainty ~700g, meter-long blade specimens. I can see how if Silver saw one of those pool noodles he would call them "bird spits" "fit for only murdering poultry."  There's definitely a lot of space for a grey area in this insane period but I can see how some catalogers would would want to try and cordon off 'true rapiers only suitable for civilian dueling' and their progeny from the earlier tucks (2000-3000g, 1000 - 1300 mm blade) and their 'military' progeny despite the convergence and apparent use of rapiers in battle as side arms anyway.
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Mar 2, 2016 01:42
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hard counter posted:there's a ~40% difference in weight with no increase in length for 'war' swords. edit: I wonder who ganked it? one of the Imperialist cav who killed him got his spurs.  edit 2: Because I was wondering, I did find one of Wallenstein's swords--it's in the Deutsches Historisches Museum in Berlin--but I can't find the measurements anywhere. It's pretty though: 
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Mar 2, 2016 |
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Mar 2, 2016 01:47
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HEY GAL posted:edit 2: Because I was wondering, I did find one of Wallenstein's swords--it's in the Deutsches Historisches Museum in Berlin--but I can't find the measurements anywhere. It's pretty though: You can't find measurements because men always lie about the size of their swords.
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Mar 2, 2016 02:06
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HEY GAL posted:edit: I wonder who ganked it? one of the Imperialist cav who killed him got his spurs. mid-battle looting sounds like the greediest of all lootings, you gotta go from slaying to sacking before the man hits the ground 
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Mar 2, 2016 02:11
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hard counter posted:mid-battle looting sounds like the greediest of all lootings, you gotta go from slaying to sacking before the man hits the ground I'm picturing a foot soldier stabbing a guy and pulling his victim's dagger out of his belt as he falls.
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Mar 2, 2016 02:14
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the best time to steal a man's pants is when his feet are still off the ground
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Mar 2, 2016 03:23
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HEY GAL posted:gustavus II adolphus is an unusually large man and very strong. i assume he had his sword made to order
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Mar 2, 2016 07:34
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wow, very sword so swede edit: that's the reason i was interested in Wallenstein's sword, because he, Isolani (tiny, weirdly androgynous), and Ernst von Mansfeld (died as the result of a months-long lingering illness) were the physically least impressive generals I could think of and I couldn't find any swords belonging to the latter two as the result of a half-minute-long google search HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 07:59 on Mar 2, 2016 |
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Mar 2, 2016 07:44
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Siivola posted:Based on a quick sample through Livrustkammaren's complex-hilted swords and other late swords, those two are not massive outliers. I was looking into these. The one labelled Officersvärja, Sverige were also known as Pappenheimer Rapiers that Swedish officers used. I supposed them to be battle ready and distinct enough not to misidentify and the numbers I was seeing for museum specimens were roughly 1m blade, 1.2m overall and just under 1.5kg (some specimens going down to ~1.35, one up to 1.9, one to almost 3 ?!?!?!) but I didn't find enough examples to be scientific instead of anecdotal. Either way I did read that the weights were cut down for these 'models' due to diminishing armor use to find the perfect handling/robustness combo so there's definitely a convergence going on.  Lines are blurring.
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Mar 2, 2016 08:50
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hard counter posted:Either way I did read that the weights were cut down for these 'models' due to diminishing armor use to find the perfect handling/robustness combo so there's definitely a convergence going on. if a german dude walks in off the street he's carrying a civilian sword and then as he enrolls in his army of choice, at what point does it become a military weapon? if you catch him while he is in the process of enlisting but before his company has mustered in, is it 1/2 of a military weapon also, considering the way museum and archives people from the 17 and 1800s treat stuff from the 1600s, i wonder about some of that classification too, this is why i stuck with swords from people we knew were fighters HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Mar 2, 2016 |
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Mar 2, 2016 08:54
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a sword is a sword (or a sabre)
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Mar 2, 2016 08:55
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Rabhadh posted:a sword is a sword (or a sabre) edit: whos the weakest, most physically destroyed anti-Imperialist, i want to try to find his sword
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Mar 2, 2016 08:56
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HEY GAL posted:told ya I would still say swords descended from the military side of the family cutting weight to the ultra low ~1.4kg when the pool noodle side could get as low (or lower) than 0.7 isn't a baaaad place for separation but I don't want to argue over data gathering/interpretation. The point's been made about as well as I can make it I wish there were more details about the 3kg specimen tho was it broken and repaired with a splint to a 2nd sword in the laziest way possible or what
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Mar 2, 2016 09:16
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hard counter posted:I would still say swords descended from the military side of the family cutting weight to the ultra low ~1.4kg when the pool noodle side could get as low (or lower) than 0.7 isn't a baaaad place for separation but I don't want to argue over data gathering/interpretation. The point's been made about as well as I can make it edit: perhaps not coincidentally, Wallenstein's sword up there has the tip broken off.
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 09:32 on Mar 2, 2016 |
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Mar 2, 2016 09:24
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HEY GAL posted:edit: whos the weakest, most physically destroyed anti-Imperialist, i want to try to find his sword Does Richelieu work out? I have no idea and can't really tell from looking at the images of him in his big robes.
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Mar 2, 2016 10:09
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Tomn posted:Does Richelieu work out? I have no idea and can't really tell from looking at the images of him in his big robes.
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Mar 2, 2016 11:05
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That never really seems to stop them from doing it. There's a case in the ninth century in which a priest named Trising tried to kill his brother-in-law with a sword and ended up cutting off a few of his fingers during a drunken argument.
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Mar 2, 2016 11:44
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hard counter posted:mid-battle looting sounds like the greediest of all lootings, you gotta go from slaying to sacking before the man hits the ground The Romans almost lost the Second Battle of Beneventum because the Roman commander promised the majority slave army that any slave who brought him a Carthaginian head would be freed. Predictably, the slaves spent so much time cutting off heads that they started losing the battle - the Roman general had to tell all the slaves they would be free at the end of the battle so that they would stop looting and actually finish the fight.
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Mar 2, 2016 13:26
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Mongols and Caribbean pirates punished mid-battle looting with death, and for good reasons.
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Mar 2, 2016 15:32
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deadking posted:That never really seems to stop them from doing it. There's a case in the ninth century in which a priest named Trising tried to kill his brother-in-law with a sword and ended up cutting off a few of his fingers during a drunken argument.
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Mar 2, 2016 20:40
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Hogge Wild posted:Mongols and Caribbean pirates punished mid-battle looting with death, and for good reasons. It's probably easier to list what the Mongols didn't punish with death though really. Although dashing around loosing arrows from horseback probably hinders your thieving opportunities somewhat. One perk of the infantry I guess?
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Mar 2, 2016 20:50
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MikeCrotch posted:It's probably easier to list what the Mongols didn't punish with death though really.
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Mar 2, 2016 20:57
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HEY GAL posted:the guys who got Gustavus Adolphus were cuirassiers, they dismounted to finish him off, stab his page (who died six days later), and strip both of them. Austria returned his buff coat in 1919 as thanks for Sweden's humanitarian aid during the famines immediately following World War 1. All i'm picturing is the rest of the Swedes rushing up to find the stripped corpse of the king and a mortally wounded kid, who when asked what has happened to the beloved Gustavus Adolphus he can only respond: "There were bigger boys"
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Mar 2, 2016 22:30
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