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Fog Tripper posted:Bisket is stupid for stupid people who do not realize you can get better from a dry rubbed chuck roast and a hell of a lot less effort. You are a filthy trash human and should go live in a dumpster.
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Jul 5, 2015 17:59
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The worst part about living in new jersey is not having food worth bragging about. I have, what, greek diners? I can brag about having a million of those awful sad places? I would kill for any of your regional specialties. Yeah our pizza isn't weird it isn't no-cheese southern pizza or whatever but like an hour and a half train ride to NYC and holy poo poo the pizza is so much better. Now I gotta live here with this garbage pizza knowing real pizza is exactly too far away to get if there isn't a show or something I'm going to see. Everything here tastes like a sad knock off of something else. I'm eating a bagel right now and I used to like these local bagels but i'm just shaking my head remembering that one NYC bagel that one time.
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Jul 5, 2015 18:38
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Solice Kirsk posted:You are a filthy trash human and should go live in a dumpster. OK, perhaps most plebs cannot manage to make a chuck not suck? Seriously, I have never had brisket done anywhere that was better than the slow cooked dry rubbed chuck I make.
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Jul 5, 2015 18:49
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Krinkle posted:The worst part about living in new jersey is not having food worth bragging about. I have, what, greek diners? I can brag about having a million of those awful sad places? I would kill for any of your regional specialties. new jersey has really good indian food
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Jul 5, 2015 18:53
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drat that's an idea I guess I'll go try some. Go try some mild goo and wish it was the kind you make at home from a brick of flavorwax.
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Jul 5, 2015 19:34
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You are all just terrible people.
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Jul 5, 2015 19:58
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And why should we listen to you, no-one of consequence? 
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Jul 5, 2015 20:26
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Fog Tripper posted:OK, perhaps most plebs cannot manage to make a chuck not suck? Seriously, I have never had brisket done anywhere that was better than the slow cooked dry rubbed chuck I make. Your lovely chuck roast is not nearly as good as the brisket in Texas.
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Jul 5, 2015 20:27
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Tezcatlipoca posted:Your lovely chuck roast is not nearly as good as the brisket in Texas. Look at that guy with his chuck roast. Look at him and laugh.
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Jul 5, 2015 21:45
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Yeah Varys and Illiryo were planning to weaken the crown and the great houses in time for the Dothraki (and later Golden company) invasions, they were only betting on high lords in as much as could help delay the inevitable westerosi civil war 'till such a point were Aegon and/or Drogo were ready to invade. That's why for instance Varys tells Robert in the first book about Dany's pregnancy, he hopes this will cause a strife between Robert and Ned and force Ned back to winterfell, delaying the civil war between the lannisters and the starks and giving Drogo some more time to mount his invasion before the great houses are at each others necks (this is of course undone by littlefinger who informs Jaime about Ned's whereabouts so that he could be ambushed). I suppose that's true, but it also can add another bit of weight to R+L=J since they mention Ned has "the bastard" and it's very unlikely they're referring to him having met Gendry.
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Jul 5, 2015 22:10
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Evil Fluffy posted:I suppose that's true, but it also can add another bit of weight to R+L=J since they mention Ned has "the bastard" and it's very unlikely they're referring to him having met Gendry. That's exactly what they're referring to, it's explicit: "He has the bastard, he has the book, and soon enough he'll have the truth", i.e, he found Gendry, he took the book from Pycelle and soon he'll figure out the truth of Joffrey's parentage, exactly like Jon Arryn did.
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Jul 5, 2015 22:12
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Evil Fluffy posted:I suppose that's true, but it also can add another bit of weight to R+L=J since they mention Ned has "the bastard" and it's very unlikely they're referring to him having met Gendry. What the gently caress are you even talking about. Arya doesn't know poo poo for context that is the literal only reason she even brings up Jon when she hears that her dad has the bastard. Gendry + a genealogy book together is enough to inference mega incest treasons. It absolutely is definitely for sure 100% infallibly gendry they are speaking about.
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Jul 5, 2015 22:13
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I doubt even Varys has any idea who Jon's real father is.
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Jul 5, 2015 22:15
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FreudianSlippers posted:I doubt even Varys has any idea who Jon's real father is. Can never know what Varys knows or doesn't but for all we know Rhaegar was out banging Lyanna 24/7 between the Tourney and the time he actually bothered himself to visit King's Landing for one time and then head off to the trident to get Robert's Warhammer spike driven through his heart and we just assume he didn't talk to too many people about Lyanna's pregnancy cause otherwise Jon's true parentage would have been at least rumored about while it seems that nobody has actually given a thought to the possibility. We assume that Varys can't spy where there aren't little birds and they surely couldn't have followed the three kingsguard or Ned and his crew to the tower of joy, so presumably Varys has no idea, though he certainly knows that Lyanna left with Rhaegar willingly, that didn't seem to evade anyone but Robert. Another problem for Varys is that there are somewhat credible rumors going on about Ned banging several different ladies during the rebellion, so him coming back with a bastard really isn't suspicious on its own.
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Jul 5, 2015 22:22
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Fog Tripper posted:OK, perhaps most plebs cannot manage to make a chuck not suck? Seriously, I have never had brisket done anywhere that was better than the slow cooked dry rubbed chuck I make. Stop ordering slices from the flat 
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Jul 6, 2015 01:00
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TommyGun85 posted:medium rare is the only way
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Jul 6, 2015 06:09
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emanresu tnuocca posted:No part but I think it's pretty obvious from those paragraphs that Varys and Illyrio don't give two shits about Dany and Viserys by the time of AGOT, The "girl of fourteen" mentioned in that passage refers to Margery, not Dany.
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Jul 6, 2015 06:49
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Arcsquad12 posted:The "girl of fourteen" mentioned in that passage refers to Margery, not Dany. Uhm quite obviously yes, Dany is the princess they're referring to. The paragraph is pretty straightforward I don't know why you think I misread it. I'm saying that they don't give a poo poo about Dany and Viserys that's why they sent them on a fool's errand with Drogo's khalasar and that's why Varys sends an assassin to kill Dany at Robert's behest, something he wouldn't do if Dany was some critical element of his long-term plans, instead we understand that by that point in time Dany being dead or alive is of equal consequence to them, they just want Drogo to invade Westeros asap, the last targaryens coming alongside him seems less important. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 08:21 on Jul 6, 2015 |
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Jul 6, 2015 07:08
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Uhm quite obviously yes, Dany is the princess they're referring to. He could have sent a warning to jorah through illryio at the same time he sent a message to the shittiest assassin he knows. It kind of beggars belief though. It would be like calling a pool shot where you're going to sink the ball, bounce the cue off the table, hit that man at the bar just so on the top of his head, and fred flinstone like, change his personality to be a french maid who will dust your credenza and it works.
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Jul 6, 2015 07:44
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Krinkle posted:He could have sent a warning to jorah through illryio at the same time he sent a message to the shittiest assassin he knows. It kind of beggars belief though. It would be like calling a pool shot where you're going to sink the ball, bounce the cue off the table, hit that man at the bar just so on the top of his head, and fred flinstone like, change his personality to be a french maid who will dust your credenza and it works. Yeah I thought about that but just as you note, it's a bit of a longshot, just as easily he could have just not sent an assassin and told Robert that he did. He sent a skilled assassin armed with a deadly and effective poison, if you want to feign an assassination there are many much more reliable ways to go about it that don't rely on Jorah falling in love with Dany and preferring to save her life. I think it's necessary to assume that Varys was willing to lose Dany at that point, particularly as we assume that this would have hastened Drogos invasion, it's true that giving Jorah the letter of pardon right before the assassination attempt is a bit clumsy but I don't think varys cared enough either way.
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Jul 6, 2015 08:02
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Varys is entirely fine with Westeros collapsing into civil war and anarchy, provided it happens at a time of his choosing. Littlefinger just accelerates his timetable, which is the source of their conflict between them. The only time they really discuss each other is with Ned Stark, who they are both manipulating, and Varys tells Illyrio he has no idea what Littlefinger is up to. Although, if Varys really wanted Littlefinger out of the way, he could have been a bit more open with Tyrion and leaned hard on the "Do you remember like a month ago when he framed you for murder?" thing instead of playing riddle games.
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Jul 6, 2015 08:06
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Potooweet posted:Although, if Varys really wanted Littlefinger out of the way, he could have been a bit more open with Tyrion and leaned hard on the "Do you remember like a month ago when he framed you for murder?" thing instead of playing riddle games. This is true but I think it's implied that while Varys considers Tyrion to be a useful and resourceful man he is also quite fine with Tyrion being executed for a crime he didn't commit, after all releasing Tyrion was hardly something he was planning to do if it wasn't for Jaime's intervention, so he clearly doesn't really care all that much and on top of that aiding Tyrion in that fashion would strengthen the Lannisters grasp of the throne, which is something Varys clearly doesn't want, he kills Kevan for being a competent ruler, he likes Tyrion and wanted Tyrion to fend Stannis' invasion but he doesn't want him in charge of King's Landing for a long enough period of time that he could stabilize the realm. As for why Varys doesn't take more direct action against Littlefinger, I don't think there's enough info in the novels to make a good enough guess.
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Jul 6, 2015 08:14
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emanresu tnuocca posted:This is true but I think it's implied that while Varys considers Tyrion to be a useful and resourceful man he is also quite fine with Tyrion being executed for a crime he didn't commit, after all releasing Tyrion was hardly something he was planning to do if it wasn't for Jaime's intervention, so he clearly doesn't really care all that much and on top of that aiding Tyrion in that fashion would strengthen the Lannisters grasp of the throne, which is something Varys clearly doesn't want, he kills Kevan for being a competent ruler, he likes Tyrion and wanted Tyrion to fend Stannis' invasion but he doesn't want him in charge of King's Landing for a long enough period of time that he could stabilize the realm. As for why Varys doesn't take more direct action against Littlefinger, I don't think there's enough info in the novels to make a good enough guess. I think this is a fair assessment.
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Jul 6, 2015 08:25
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Yeah I thought about that but just as you note, it's a bit of a longshot, just as easily he could have just not sent an assassin and told Robert that he did. He sent a skilled assassin armed with a deadly and effective poison, if you want to feign an assassination there are many much more reliable ways to go about it that don't rely on Jorah falling in love with Dany and preferring to save her life. I think it's necessary to assume that Varys was willing to lose Dany at that point, particularly as we assume that this would have hastened Drogos invasion, it's true that giving Jorah the letter of pardon right before the assassination attempt is a bit clumsy but I don't think varys cared enough either way. It was only a letter of pardon in the show, I think in the books it's just "hey I'm going to check my mail, no need to come with" and whatever he read made him come back and eyeball greeks bearing gifts with more scrutiny.
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Jul 6, 2015 09:02
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Re: Littlefinger vs. Varys. These dudes are both balls-deep in intrigue, but the reason they don't directly go after one another is that they're playing a game. A game of thrones, if you will. I honestly would not be surprised if it turns out at the very end that Littlefinger (who's a self-confessed betting man) and Varys made some wager because they're the two smartest (or at least most intellectually vain) men in Westeros, hate each other's company and can only play
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Jul 6, 2015 09:03
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edit: never mind
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Jul 6, 2015 09:36
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No Pants posted:edit: never mind No that was a different assassination attempt, two books later. edit: your edit was too quick for me to notice.
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Jul 6, 2015 09:37
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emanresu tnuocca posted:No that was a different assassination attempt, two books later. Yeah, I was going to edit my post to bring up that Dany gets saved from assassins two times by guys who were recently contacted by Illyrio.
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Jul 6, 2015 09:38
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Potooweet posted:Varys is entirely fine with Westeros collapsing into civil war and anarchy Negative. That's the very opposite of his character. If we take him at face value, when he's confessing to people about to die, he really does do everything he does for the realm. Specifically the people. He didn't support Dany at all when she was the child bride of a horse lord a world away that posed no threat to Westeros. When she had dragons, a noble claim, and an army that would die for her, that changed, as Westeros needed to be united to end the bloodshed. Before that his every move was to keep the peace and prevent the nobility from killing everyone with their petty wars. He was the sole voice of reason telling Joffrey not to start the war by killing Ned, and telling Ned not to provoke Joffrey. He, like us, knew exactly what would happen if Ned went to his grave condemning the Lannisters. Joffrey going against the best advice ever and killing Ned kicked off Varys having to play every angle to assure peace. Littlefinger, meanwhile, was salivating at the thought of all that warfare and him rising through the ranks. Varys is the sole character who is pure good. (Not counting if Bran ends up being so)
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Jul 6, 2015 12:31
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A GLISTENING HODOR posted:Negative. That's the very opposite of his character. quote:Before that his every move was to keep the peace and prevent the nobility from killing everyone with their petty wars. quote:He was the sole voice of reason telling Joffrey not to start the war by killing Ned, and telling Ned not to provoke Joffrey. As for the 'sole' portion, it seems like every one other than Littlefinger and Joffrey were opposed to executing Ned, Joffrey specifically states that Cersei asked him to spare Ned and allow him to take the black, she is also rather shocked when and cries out to Joffrey to stop when he calls to Ser Ilyn to do the nasty. quote:Littlefinger, meanwhile, was salivating at the thought of all that warfare and him rising through the ranks. 
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Jul 6, 2015 12:58
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He supports Aegon in that it's a better plan post-Joffrey. He's working angles now that poo poo beyond his control is in motion. He never planned a War of Five Kings to happen so he could end a war his way. He didn't want a war in the first place. He's reacting to events that have happened. When Ned was alive and Hand of the King, Varys wasn't planning moves against Lannisters to assure Tyrells did X so that the Targaryens did Y and the north did Z. None of that makes sense unless Varys is a time traveler. Dany pre-dragons was a complete nonentity. The Dothraki would have never crossed the ocean so a white lady could have a chair they don't understand. Killing her or not killing her was entirely irrelevant. No one would miss some penniless horse bride. Illyrio was her surrogate father for nearly a decade. You don't have to go very deep to see why he'd want her alive and well. Since Westeros went tits up because Joffrey killed Ned, his moves have all been decreasing Cersei's power and influence (the worst person for the people), getting Tyrells in the fold (food for the peasants), etc. "What good would war do now" means exactly what it does here and now in the real world. poo poo is bad. It could be a LOT better. But the gently caress is a war gonna do to fix that? If you assume Aegon was in their back pocket the whole time (and not bullshit GRRM added later to pad out the books), then you'd assume in 15 years Robert would drink himself to death, Joffrey would claim the throne, and Aegon could challenge him should Joffrey be a terrible king. Aegon was never meant to show up when the five kings had all bit the dust, because that was most definitely not something that was expected.
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Jul 6, 2015 13:42
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"What good is war now? Delay." cannot be interpreted as "War is never good", come on. And Dany and Viserys have spent less than half a year at Illyrio's place in Pentos. You may say that Drogo would have never crossed the narrow sea but Illyrio disagrees and believes that the Khal will invade at his own leisure. I mean, you are not really arguing against what I say, you're arguing against the text, I quoted the entire conversation only a page ago, Illyrio and Varys were trying to get 40,000 dothraki to invade westeros, they are not good guys.
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Jul 6, 2015 17:00
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If you knew war was coming, and your goal was to make a society on the far end of it that wouldn't have a bunch of grasping noble families scrabbling over each other and grinding the common people into grist for literally forever, but war was definitely for sure coming whether you paddle the boat furiously upstream or not, then all there is for it is timing the one war to happen at the most opportune time, to be decisive as gently caress in your favor, and establish a lasting peace on the far side. That doesn't make you a war monger.
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Jul 6, 2015 17:19
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Krinkle posted:If you knew war was coming, and your goal was to make a society on the far end of it that wouldn't have a bunch of grasping noble families scrabbling over each other and grinding the common people into grist for literally forever, but war was definitely for sure coming whether you paddle the boat furiously upstream or not, then all there is for it is timing the one war to happen at the most opportune time, to be decisive as gently caress in your favor, and establish a lasting peace on the far side. That doesn't make you a war monger. I didn't argue he was a war monger, I argued that he is far from an 'unquestionably good' character. Furthermore in response to the point you raise I think it's rather fair to say that with all due respect to the atrocities committed by the armies led by the westerosi high lords having Drogo's khalasar unleashed upon westeros would cause much more death and mayhem than would be caused otherwise. The point I'm making is that Varys and Illyrio prioritize allowing their own claimants take the throne and don't shirk at shedding massive amounts of blood in the process, they are a stabilizing force only as far as stability serves their interests and this is made rather explicit when Varys offs Kevan Lannister while confessing that he is doing so because Kevan is providing stability and level-headed leadership when it doesn't suit the cheese-mongers' interests.
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Jul 6, 2015 17:49
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Any character who treats tyrion as a loving human being just shoots straight up the "I give a poo poo about them and their motivations" chart. Varys, Garlan Tyrell, and the red viper. They can be boring or weird dicks, it doesn't matter. There's only three of them in the entire goddamn series. Once you care about someone you're willing to overlook a little thing like tossing a child out a window or planning a continent spanning war. e: his brother, I guess, maester aemon, I guess. Krinkle fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Jul 6, 2015 |
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Jul 6, 2015 17:58
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Jeor Mormont too. Look, I like Varys, he's a very interesting character and it's always fun to figure out which mysterious characters were actually Varys in disguise, for instance, he was the chubby lord who paid for Gendry's apprenticeship with Tobho Mott, he's a cool guy, interesting character, a source for twists and intrigue, all that, I am not saying I don't like him, I just tried to provide a fair assessment of his motives and actions.
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Jul 6, 2015 18:06
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emanresu tnuocca posted:he was the chubby lord who paid for Gendry's apprenticeship with Tobho Mott cool ps sorry but I didn't read the previous posts which I can only assume were several volumes of Bookchat XVII: A Dream of A Dream of Spring
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Jul 6, 2015 18:08
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Uhm quite obviously yes, Dany is the princess they're referring to. I think you might have quoted the wrong paragraph then, because what you put up makes no mention whatsoever of Dany or the Dothraki. It is Illyrio and Varys talking about how Ned's an idiot, Stannis and Lysa are causing trouble and Loras is sending Margery to court.
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Jul 6, 2015 18:32
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Arcsquad12 posted:I think you might have quoted the wrong paragraph then, because what you put up makes no mention whatsoever of Dany or the Dothraki. It is Illyrio and Varys talking about how Ned's an idiot, Stannis and Lysa are causing trouble and Loras is sending Margery to court. I truncated it in the wrong place, let's have the entire conversation here cause it's good and interesting and why not: quote:Arya peered over the edge and felt the cold black breath on her face. Far below, she saw the light of a single torch, small as the flame of a candle. Two men, she made out. Their shadows writhed against the sides of the well, tall as giants. She could hear their voices, echoing up the shaft. (I bolded some lines which pertain to discussions people have had in recent pages, no specific connection between those lines).
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Jul 6, 2015 18:37
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Okay that makes more sense. Wasn't quite sure what you were getting at before, thank you.
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Jul 6, 2015 18:39
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