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Wait, Roguebook is out out, like done? I thought it was an EA game for some reason ... hmm
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Jun 22, 2021 18:30
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Hooplah posted:i personally find hades' gameplay to be pretty boring, and the upgrades are generally not interesting or gamechanging like i'd expect from that style of roguelite. nothing to hint at insane combs like i'd find in isaac or StS. having each god's upgrades overwrite the other gods' is such a huge turnoff! are there unlocks that give more interesting upgrades? because i'm not really interested in playing more if i've seen the extent of the levelups/powerups available to me. if i wasn't willing to slog through witcher 3's same-y gameplay to see more story, i sure as hell won't do it here Upgrades only replace each other if they are in the exact same slot, of which there are five main ones I believe (normal attack, special attack, cast, dash, call) as well as tons of slots to modify those main ones. You also need to focus on poms to get them upgraded in order to make the boons as powerful as possible, but they can get slightly OP when you get the right combo. Finally, there are legendary boons you definitely haven't seen yet as well as duo boons that require you to hold one or another boon and are basically legendaries themselves. There are definitely some very fun and cool boons that work well together, but nothing totally gamebreaking because they still want it to be mostly about skill. I happen to absolutely love the Poseidon ones, upgraded Poseidon dash combined with some of his other modifiers makes you a a tidal surge of death just dashing around and destroying dudes against the walls. The cast stones can get way OP as well, seeking blade pits is quite a thing to behold. If you don't like the combat, though, I probably wouldn't force myself to keep playing. I thought it was pretty good, enough to keep my interest for probably at least 20 or 30 hours, but I haven't played in a while now, just got my fill. Here's someone with a full range of boons, you can see how many they have even though they left three of the main slots open, and how their legendary seeking blade pits are absolutely owning the final boss 
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Jun 22, 2021 18:30
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VictualSquid posted:I remember it as being significantly later. Maybe I started at a different location for several tries before getting there eventually. Some races and classes start elsewhere but of the ones that you have unlocked at the start every class and most of the races will start in Trollmire, which is where this is. Both varieties of Elf that are unlocked at the start begin in the Scintillating Caves, but you can literally just back out turn one and walk over to Trollmire. dwarves have their own special starting dungeon, so if for whatever reason you are absolutely determined to play one of them you will have to deal with the bad inventory for 10 minutes instead of 5
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Jun 22, 2021 18:31
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Play posted:If you count the weapons as metaprogression, which is probably the case, it looks a lot better. That's the most impactful element of the metaprogression, the weapons and the weapon aspects with honorary mention to the little badge things you get from characters for giving them nectar. Rest of the upgrades are fairly mundane, although they do help. I've ranted about this before, but I really feel Hades is an extremely mediocre game polished to a mirror shine with art and voice acting.
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Jun 22, 2021 18:33
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Cheat Engine for all the upgrade currency made playing Hades tolerable. The weapons were neato but lol if you think I'm gonna do 500000+ runs just to unlock everything.
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Jun 22, 2021 18:35
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Broken Cog posted:I really didn't feel the weapons in Hades are varied enough to merit praise. All of the melee weapons play pretty much the same, and I wasn't a fan of the bow, though I did like the gun with the shotgun upgrade (though at that point it's basically just another melee weapon). I just don't agree, the weapons play so much more differently than the vast majority of action roguelites gives you. The sword is super different from the claws and the spear, obviously the gun and bow are super different from the melee weapons but also from each other, and the shield is unlike anything else. Especially when you get weapon aspects which range from mundane to game-changing and change the gameplay even more. If you are playing any of those weapons the same as each other you are doing it wrong for sure. The most similar two are probably the sword and the claws, but the differing attack speeds and specials as well as aspects provide enough variation easily. Say it's mediocre if you want, but almost every other action roguelite is even more mediocre in that case. There's definitely a reason people went wild for it, although clearly it's not for everyone because I've heard plenty of this opinion before.
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Jun 22, 2021 18:38
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Play posted:Ah, okay, maybe it's kind of designed that way, to not be too challenging. I didn't even know that there was NG+ so I'll just look at it like I beat the first level and now need to try the second level. i beat NG and NG+ on my first two runs but I'm at NG+2 now and it's kicking my rear end.
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Jun 22, 2021 18:43
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cock hero flux posted:Some races and classes start elsewhere but of the ones that you have unlocked at the start every class and most of the races will start in Trollmire, which is where this is. Both varieties of Elf that are unlocked at the start begin in the Scintillating Caves, but you can literally just back out turn one and walk over to Trollmire. Well, I remember taking long enough to beat him that I was annoyed enough to consider dropping the game forever. The time is not actually the issue I remember getting a full inventory, prompting me to manually find a town to sell stuff before then. And without the chest you spend those 10 minutes on inventory management alone even if you start in trollmire. I just looked at the first lp that came up searching on yt. And the dude takes almost exactly one hour to die to the guy. Despite playing like a vetaran *band player. And all that assumes that you already know that the optional boss that the game explicitly tells you to skip has a critical item, which you don't because it is never mentioned because all veteran players have repressed their memory of how annoying the game without the chest is.
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Jun 22, 2021 18:44
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Now that Isaac is actually good again after seven years of disappointment it's been hard for me to care much about other action roguelikes. Is there anything interesting coming up?
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Jun 22, 2021 18:44
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poemdexter posted:Cheat Engine for all the upgrade currency made playing Hades tolerable. The weapons were neato but lol if you think I'm gonna do 500000+ runs just to unlock everything. Cheat Engine is really good for cases like this. Synthetik even lets you just modify the values in the save file so you don't have to waste your time before getting to the game proper.
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Jun 22, 2021 18:45
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Play posted:Upgrades only replace each other if they are in the exact same slot, of which there are five main ones I believe (normal attack, special attack, cast, dash, call) as well as tons of slots to modify those main ones. You also need to focus on poms to get them upgraded in order to make the boons as powerful as possible, but they can get slightly OP when you get the right combo. my main gripe is if i take a boon to upgrade a given slot, say dash for instance, i then want to lean on that slot as my damage-dealer. now if i get another boon from a different god, i need to actively avoid that same mechanic i've been focusing on and grab a second upgrade that's now just as resource-intensive as the first would be. it's forced anti-synergy. if the core upgrade mechanics are this seemingly counterintuitive i don't think i'm willing to hold out for some post-/end-game upgrades that might be different. Broken Cog posted:I've ranted about this before, but I really feel Hades is an extremely mediocre game polished to a mirror shine with art and voice acting.
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Jun 22, 2021 18:48
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No Wave posted:Now that Isaac is actually good again after seven years of disappointment it's been hard for me to care much about other action roguelikes. Is there anything interesting coming up? Wait, what did they do? I've never enjoyed Binding of Isaac and only even gave it a shot due to its association with Super Meat Boy but I'm curious what could have changed to alter someone's opinion this drastically.
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Jun 22, 2021 18:50
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the new expansion for binding of isaac didn't really change much about the game being an arbitrary coinflip as to whether or not you get a combo that entirely breaks the game
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Jun 22, 2021 18:52
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Just small things that made the game better. If you didnt like flash isaac you still won't like repentance, the core gameplay is the same. If you liked flash isaac but didnt like rebirth/afterbirth it would be worth checking out. No Wave fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Jun 22, 2021 |
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Jun 22, 2021 18:53
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Play posted:I just don't agree, the weapons play so much more differently than the vast majority of action roguelites gives you. The sword is super different from the claws and the spear, obviously the gun and bow are super different from the melee weapons but also from each other, and the shield is unlike anything else. Especially when you get weapon aspects which range from mundane to game-changing and change the gameplay even more. If you are playing any of those weapons the same as each other you are doing it wrong for sure. The most similar two are probably the sword and the claws, but the differing attack speeds and specials as well as aspects provide enough variation easily. The lack of variation in Hades, with everything from enemies to bosses and arguably weapons just kills it for me. Even with the boons it often feels like you're just choosing a color. It's especially egregious since the game expects you to beat it so many times for the "true ending". There's no new real challenges, just an ever incrementally harder version of the same run you've already done a dozen times.
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Jun 22, 2021 19:06
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disliking Hades for lacking variety is totally legit i find the core mechanics and the skill(s) tested by Hades very satisfying and don't mind that it's just a series of escalations on that one basic principle. i also barely even use weapons other than the bow. to me it's a 50-meter dash, not a chess match, so naturally if you don't like running you're not gonna get much out of it this is also a big distinction from gameplay in other Supergiant games which ranges from fine but completely forgettable (Bastion) to actively detrimental to the experience in every way (Transistor) Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jun 22, 2021 |
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Jun 22, 2021 19:12
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Hades was alright but once I'd won a couple times with every base weapon I was pretty thoroughly sick of the gameplay for all the reasons that people have stated. In particular I think that everything had too much base health for a game that demands so much repetition. The fact that you need a really devastating combo just to get through chaff quickly, let alone the bosses, was a real pain. I can understand not wanting Isaac-level "everything in the room dies when I hit a button" but fighting Theseus and the Minotaur was just 4 minutes of mashing buttons even after you got good at the fight.
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Jun 22, 2021 19:18
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i mostly blame that on Elysium being full of enemies with shields, damage cancellation, and other forms of mitigation that don't respond to direct damage. it's an attempt to make the player be strategic in ways that force you to slow down, which I can see why the devs would want that but it sucks and cuts completely against the game's strengths
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Jun 22, 2021 19:23
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VictualSquid posted:Well, I remember taking long enough to beat him that I was annoyed enough to consider dropping the game forever. The time is not actually the issue I remember getting a full inventory, prompting me to manually find a town to sell stuff before then. I've spent maybe 15 total minutes playing TOME without a chest and 10 of those were due to a bug on my first play of tome i fired up normal, picked bulwark, and walked through the first dungeon hitting things with a sword. when I saw that the items sold for like, 0.03 gold each, I didn't bother taking them with me to sell. I got to the end and a message told me there was an angry troll in the next room. I went into the next room and hit him with my sword, and he died. Bill kills people on higher difficulties because he counts as a boss and higher difficulties give him and all other bosses gigantic scaling bonuses and extra abilities. On normal he's a big troll that you hit until he falls down. If you're playing a squishy class you might have to press the heal button at some point in this process.
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Jun 22, 2021 19:28
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Dachshundofdoom posted:Hades was alright but once I'd won a couple times with every base weapon I was pretty thoroughly sick of the gameplay for all the reasons that people have stated. Yeah, same for me. But that was at least 20 or 25 hours in which makes it a rousing success by my normal standards. I've played at least a dozen action roguelites since that didn't come close to getting that much time from me. And besides, everything after you beat Hades with all the weapons is just iteration on the theme, filler even more so than the normal game. Speaking of Hades, anyone see this? lmao https://kotaku.com/myth-gods-of-asgard-sure-looks-like-hades-1847141716 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg6wA2DoEG8 Play fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Jun 22, 2021 |
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Jun 22, 2021 19:28
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Hooplah posted:my main gripe is if i take a boon to upgrade a given slot, say dash for instance, i then want to lean on that slot as my damage-dealer. now if i get another boon from a different god, i need to actively avoid that same mechanic i've been focusing on and grab a second upgrade that's now just as resource-intensive as the first would be. it's forced anti-synergy. Yes, it usually doesn't fall into place as well as the seeking doom vortex run. The game encourages you to go wide because there's some opposition, like the giant poison-spraying rats, that would be completely terrible to fight if you were relying on your dash to do damage in melee range, and some opposition, like the giant laser-spraying snakestones, that want you in their face stunning them out of their bullshit as fast as possible. It can be easy to rely on a single good boon, but your weapon has two attack modes for a reason, and later developments in the game give you two more important buttons to press, though more rarely. Hades really wants you to press all your available buttons, and maybe to associate a given god with one of your buttons for a run. Seeing that god again gives you a chance to upgrade what that button does - your chain lightning now makes more hops and makes enemy attacks backfire on them, your water splash DOTs when they move and causes a secondary splash when you hit them into something. And the combination upgrades are only available when you've put their respective gods on one of your main buttons. cock hero flux posted:This exact thing is why I don't like metaprogress that increases player power at all. It's fine when it unlocks alternate playstyles, like classes or races or ships or whatever. But when it directly improves the power of the player then it's always either: Griftlands seems like it's doing a good job of this. I beat a Sal run fresh despite not 100% knowing how the final boss would get set up by the plot (though it was a real nailbiter), and a Rook run with some perk points from Sal but no other help. I'm confident I'll have a fairly similar experience with Smith. I've seen the sentiment that you're going to skunk out until you grind out some metaprogression, but from how I've played it seems more like the metaprogression is there to help rise to the challenge as you climb up in prestige level.
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Jun 22, 2021 19:32
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Wait, what did they do? original flash isaac was a pretty good game coded poorly in a bad programming language. the remake, rebirth, was mostly a straight translation of that good game into a better engine with some additions and changes. then years of patches and expansions passed that mostly made the game worse more than they did better, even though they were genuinely adding some good mechanics and items. repentance, the expansion that just came out, integrated a very popular "alternate expansion" mod for rebirth with the official expansions, added a bunch of new stuff on top of that, and most crucially - the mod authors brought on to the project actually managed to convince ed that a bunch of his bad ideas were bad, and very unpopular things about the game that had been added in the expansions were dramatically trimmed back or removed entirely
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Jun 22, 2021 19:34
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No Wave posted:Now that Isaac is actually good again after seven years of disappointment it's been hard for me to care much about other action roguelikes. Is there anything interesting coming up? Always bet on the underdogs~ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1084220/Cavity_Busters/ Skul just got a Big Ole Update: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1147560/view/3017956205978897230 Semi-Similar for Revita: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1175460/view/3023585705513788907 Most others out there hew more towards Shooty or ARPG on the known horizon. Unsure what will next either take the Isaac/Zelda'ish mantle from Isaac outright beyond the looming shadow of an Isaac 2, or carve out a strong enough identity on the other fronts. I suppose the FPS hybrids have the most viable contenders at the moment at least on the cusp of such, if not already there.
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Jun 22, 2021 20:44
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VictualSquid posted:I remember it as being significantly later. Maybe I started at a different location for several tries before getting there eventually. i'm pretty sure you used to get it after clearing lake of nur, but i'm also pretty sure they changed it like 5+ years ago. even longer ago you used to have to use an item to identify artifacts for ??? some reason. cock hero flux posted:Bill kills people on higher difficulties because he counts as a boss and higher difficulties give him and all other bosses gigantic scaling bonuses and extra abilities. On normal he's a big troll that you hit until he falls down. If you're playing a squishy class you might have to press the heal button at some point in this process. he's still just a mediocre troll blob in insane unless you go in weirdly late for some reason and he gets class levels. you kinda have to be a yeek to make that happen without intentionally doing other T1s first though
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Jun 22, 2021 21:20
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VictualSquid posted:I just looked at the first lp that came up searching on yt. And the dude takes almost exactly one hour to die to the guy. Despite playing like a vetaran *band player. please link this i want to laugh at this guy
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Jun 22, 2021 21:23
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victrix posted:Wait, Roguebook is out out, like done? I thought it was an EA game for some reason Roguebook has been faked released. it's in a very polished early access state, much like Hades when it came out on Epic. I don't know why they didn't put it in Early Access (probably because Faeria is dying and this is their needed injection of development funds) or a timed Epic exclusive release then Steam early access. They would have gained a lot more good will than what we're seeing at the moment.
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Jun 22, 2021 21:41
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Count Uvula posted:Extremely good game, desperately needs more time in the oven because it has some (definitely fixable) issues that might ruin the experience entirely if you hate games wasting your time. Thanks, this is what I was wondering. I usually skip Early Access games because I always end up thinking " this would be cool if they fixed x/y/z, then I'll pick it back up" then I start playing other things and never go back, but Last Spell looked cool enough to maybe check out.
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Jun 22, 2021 21:45
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Kobold Sex Tape posted:i'm pretty sure you used to get it after clearing lake of nur, but i'm also pretty sure they changed it like 5+ years ago. even longer ago you used to have to use an item to identify artifacts for ??? some reason. this is how i remembered it and got really confused for a bit about killing bill for it. i feel the autochest should be default now, it sucks that it isn't. is it default if you play EoR no matter what since it's needed for tinkers?
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Jun 22, 2021 21:56
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Action roguelikes from recently: Blade Assault is pretty similar to Skul as well, both have pluses and minuses. Tough 2D combat roguelites where enemies stack and tend to have all kinds of weird bonuses and such. Skul probably has the more interesting upgrade system but Blade Assault maybe feels and looks a little better. Skul has larger rooms whereas Blade Assault has some kind of boring arena corridors to have combat events in. Skul is finished, I believe Blade Assault just entered EA a week or two ago. Roboquest is just really fun and satisfying. Doesn't reinvent the wheel but it's a good FPS roguelike that gets your blood pumping. Nice techno soundtrack and good feeling movement. EA Orbital Bullet is an action roguelite with the unique mechanic of every level being the outside of a cylinder that loops around so you can fire your weapons around a turn to nail the enemies. Missed a little on tone, look and enemy variety but the action is good. Not sure if it's EA. Rising Hell is one of my favorite recent ones. Unique vertical attack mechanic, tough bosses, very very little metaprogression (you upgrade to get a couple new characters and a few arms that have both positive and negative effects, so nothing that actually makes you so much more powerful). Vivid and gorgeous pixel art. Full release, highly recommended.
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Jun 22, 2021 22:17
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Kobold Sex Tape posted:i'm pretty sure you used to get it after clearing lake of nur, but i'm also pretty sure they changed it like 5+ years ago. even longer ago you used to have to use an item to identify artifacts for ??? some reason. And it doesn't actually matter when it unlocks, it is such a massive quality of life improvement that locking it all is just a dumb idea.
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Jun 22, 2021 22:53
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Voxx posted:is it default if you play EoR no matter what since it's needed for tinkers? There's a different one for tinkers. Tinkers use the Extractor instead of the Chest. The chest makes fortress juice, the extractor makes crafting materials. You automatically get an extractor if you start AOA as a tinker or if you become a tinker later. As for EOR, I think maybe you have to kill the guy at the end of the tunnel right at the start of the game to unlock it? Either that or you just start with it, I can't remember. Either way you'll have it within a couple of minutes.
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Jun 22, 2021 22:53
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VictualSquid posted:That makes more sense, I started playing long ago. The change probably still had people complaining because nobody takes more then 5 minutes to clear the lake which is even practically part of the starting area. no it isn't, the lake is like a level 20 area and is a huge pain in the rear end both because it's underwater and because the boss keeps getting buffed. it's generally recommended to wait for quite a while before doing the lake. I know because I splatted a billion pre-rework necromancers into him since necromancers had to kill him really early in the game or accept a permanent loss of stats, and he is absolute murder early game. Especially for necromancers because necromancers were heavily reliant on sustains and he has a sustain purge.
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Jun 22, 2021 22:57
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cock hero flux posted:no it isn't, the lake is like a level 20 area and is a huge pain in the rear end both because it's underwater and because the boss keeps getting buffed. it's generally recommended to wait for quite a while before doing the lake. I know the lake is hard to clear, I remember having to do that before unlocking the chest. But all your arguments for why having to unlock the chest is no problem apply to both locations. And I am very sure that if I looked at the tome forums for that time I would find people making those arguments.
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Jun 22, 2021 23:09
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Play posted:Action roguelikes from recently: I'm having a lot of fun with Rogue Legacy 2 right now. Highly recommend it. Still in early access, but it's pretty drat polished for having been so.
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Jun 22, 2021 23:10
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Rogue Legacy 2 improves a lot on the first one, but it's still the same basic idea so if you disliked 1 you're likely to dislike 2 also. The meta progression is still there in full force and is more of a grind than even 1 was I think. I picked it up during the Epic sale since it was dirt cheap and had some fun, but it's a very flawed game and still in early access and lacking a lot of the end content.
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Jun 22, 2021 23:15
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VictualSquid posted:The Lake is a subarea from the trollmire just like bill's place, and I think I remember some guides recommending that you should clear it at the same time that you come back to kill bill if you skipped him on a mire start. What? The lake is a sub area of old forest. It's, bare minimum, a level 15 area! If your path is Trollmire -> Old Forest -> Lake, that's...brave, to say the least.
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Jun 22, 2021 23:22
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VictualSquid posted:The Lake is a subarea from the trollmire just like bill's place, and I think I remember some guides recommending that you should clear it at the same time that you come back to kill bill if you skipped him on a mire start. the lake is a subarea of the old forest, a much later area totally separate from the trolllmire. especially back in the day when completing all of the starting dungeons on each character was pretty standard practice, you might do a lot of dungeons before you had your chance at the cube. now with it on bill i think it's a non-issue. you can get the thing within a few minutes of rolling your first character and you're definitely going to complete the trollmire at some point early on
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Jun 22, 2021 23:25
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I totally agree that it is much less of an issue with the chest at bill's. But it is still stupid to gate the chest at all. Even having to unlock it every game makes more sense. It is just such a quality improvement that I can't understand why they would ever want to make the game so much worse for new players, especially as everybody who ever might appreciate unlocking the chest has already unlocked it. I still consider having to unlock it an example of terrible metaprogression. I haven't played the game in years, so I misremembered the location of the lake. All the tree areas look annoyingly similar.
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Jun 22, 2021 23:33
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Kaincypher posted:I'm having a lot of fun with Rogue Legacy 2 right now. Highly recommend it. Still in early access, but it's pretty drat polished for having been so. I'll have to check that out! For some reason I've never loved when games put "rogue" in the title itself (although a lot of them do these days) it's like, stand on your own two feet you know, just come up with a creative title instead of aping an ancient game to tell people you game has similar mechanisms. But if it's a good game I certainly won't care
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Jun 22, 2021 23:34
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VictualSquid posted:I totally agree that it is much less of an issue with the chest at bill's. But it is still stupid to gate the chest at all. Even having to unlock it every game makes more sense. It is just such a quality improvement that I can't understand why they would ever want to make the game so much worse for new players, especially as everybody who ever might appreciate unlocking the chest has already unlocked it. trollmire is a level 1 area that most new players will start in that you can clear trivially easily without even understanding how to do anything but bump attack old forest is a level 7 area notorious for tricking new players because it's close to trollmire and looks like it should be a logical next step but is actually far more dangerous and should be left until after you go clear all the level 1 dungeons nur is an area you can access from the end of the old forest which is around level 20, full of eldritch horrors, and completely underwater and ends with a boss that is extremely durable and has the very rare ability to purge sustains, something that most new players will not even consider possible or notice happening, they will simply suddenly find themselves vastly weaker for no apparent reason and then die abruptly
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Jun 22, 2021 23:43
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