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"blood self-sacrifice to create Zenomus" is what she wasn't allowed to print
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May 7, 2021 23:37
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Y'know, I bet Estinien's surname reveal ends up being that he's related to Haurchefant. Like, IIRC, Haurchefant's deal was that he was a bastard (even if his dad legitimized him), so maybe Estinien is related to him through his mother's side. They do have a passing similarity to each other
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May 8, 2021 00:12
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the_steve posted:Y'know, I bet Estinien's surname reveal ends up being that he's related to Haurchefant. yes, make my husbandos brothers, Square. One's dead so it's not weird! But yea that would be kinda a sweet reveal, we saw in ShB Square fuckin loves reminding us how much we (rightly) love Haurchefant, so making Estinien his half brother or the like would be fairly in style for them.
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May 8, 2021 00:16
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that would be very sweet and give me some right proper Emotions
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May 8, 2021 01:18
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Yeah that'd basically be perfect, and it even avoids making Estinien a Stealth Prince or something, which I think has some value.
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May 8, 2021 01:23
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did estinien and haurchefant ever even meet?
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May 8, 2021 02:32
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Kerrzhe posted:did estinien and haurchefant ever even meet? I don't think so, I think they mentioned each other in general terms like Haurchefant mentioning you're working with the Azure Dragoon being cool or something but I don't think they ever had a proper face to face.
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May 8, 2021 03:18
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Yeah, Haurchefant was mainly doing his job at Camp Dragonhead, and Estinien was doing the Lone Dragonslayer gig when he wasn't traveling with us during HW, so I doubt their paths crossed too often, and pretty sure they never interacted on-screen
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May 8, 2021 03:27
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So what you're saying is Estinien is actually Haurchefant in disguise and he faked his death to free himself of noble ties like one Carvallain de Gorgagne
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May 8, 2021 03:39
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When Estinien first meets up with you and Alphinaud at the end of 2.5, Haurchefaunt leads him into the room and then leaves again without saying a word.
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May 8, 2021 03:46
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Estinien Longhaft
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May 8, 2021 03:47
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Estinien's last name is Dangoulain. He and Ysayle got married in secret while you were off doing one of the HW dungeons, and he took her last name because he recognized who had the power in that relationship.
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May 8, 2021 04:15
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Estinien's last name is Estinien. In Endwalker we'll meet his brother, Luigi.
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May 8, 2021 05:13
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FunkyFjord posted:I can only pronounce Fandaniel's name as Fan Daniel. We've also met Fandaniel for like, 20 minutes at absolute most. Maybe he needs time to build up to where we all like him as a villain. I know I thought precisely nothing of Emet-Selch when he first appeared as Solus.
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May 8, 2021 07:00
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Honestly, I'm kind of fine with Fandaniel being a more simple loon of an antagonist, if only for variety's sake; if every villain was as complex as Emet-Selch, I imagine I'd tire of it. Having an overly broad, scenery chewing villain as a palette cleanser before we get to the next one along is fine by me.
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May 8, 2021 07:09
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Tunzie posted:Honestly, I'm kind of fine with Fandaniel being a more simple loon of an antagonist, if only for variety's sake; if every villain was as complex as Emet-Selch, I imagine I'd tire of it. Having an overly broad, scenery chewing villain as a palette cleanser before we get to the next one along is fine by me. Yeah. Honestly, I think it's the only way to sell him as a threat. Consider: You've had the Unsundered. Primarily Emet and Elidibus. Both of whom had reason and conviction. They had a clear goal of Restoring Their People, which carries with it a certain set of rules and limitations on how far they could go. What made them dangerous was their willingness to absolutely go as far as it took to see their people restored. Fandaniel obviously isn't as powerful as the Unsundered, otherwise he wouldn't have been stuck as a lackey all this time. But what makes him dangerous is his alleged goal of "burning this motherfucker into nothingness." Assuming he's on the level with his stated aim and isn't just doing a misdirect, he's dangerous because he will and absolutely intends to take a huge running leap over the lines that the Unsundered wouldn't cross. He has nothing to lose and he isn't trying to gain. He wants suicide by apocalypse, and there's not any talking him back from that edge.
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May 8, 2021 11:34
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Fandaniel could be interesting (compelling even) if given a good enough reason/motivation for wanting to die -- which we probably wont know for a good while. Which isn't to say it would justify or excuse his "take everyone else with me" attitude about it. As the_steve said, it's that willingness to take it so far that makes them the villain that they are, after all. But I'm also reminded of Arcanum and how the big bad in that game also wanted to die and take all life with them. This was because existence to them was legitimately painful and agonizing. In a world where magic could be used to bring back the dead, they found the notion of allowing anyone to remain unconscionable. One of the handful of ways to end that game is to a) convince them that not everyone experiences life as they do, and b) offer them a truly permanent death from which they can never return to "the pain of life." Of course, they're two very different games with very different playstyles, aesthetics, and story beats. And I'm trusting the writers to do a good job with Endwalker, whatever they might choose to do with him.
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May 8, 2021 12:27
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Ya I suppose I do definitely trust the writers at this point, the game has only been getting better as time goes on in that regard and Shadowbringers was excellent. Thanks for the opinions on Emet and Fandaniel, I think it probably is just my perspective as a newer player that leads me to not really care about the later at all yet. If he's Ishikawa's current favorite then i can at least reasonably expect neat things to happen around him in the first few big chunks of Endwalker.
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May 8, 2021 16:21
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yea Ishikawa calling him her favorite was interesting, she's certainly earned plenty of trust when it comes to making good antagonists so I'm optimistic she'll at the very least make Fandy more interesting than 'I'm CRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZY!!!!!!!' and JoJo poses
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May 8, 2021 16:31
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It's valid to trust thr writers but still not love every character, subplot, etc. I'm very excited for EW's plot because I love Zenos, and Fandaniel has been a delight to watch torment him, so when people are like "don't worry, have faith, they'll fix the bad guys and make it good!" it feels weird to me because... it's already good to me! I love what has been teased and set up! I want more of this! I'm totally ready for EW to just not work for some people at points because of the characters involved.
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May 8, 2021 17:05
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I don't think an antagonist needs to have a complex psychological profile to be interesting, like it's fine for villains to be straight-forwardly scenery chewing dicks without having a pathological motivation for their actions. If Fandaniel ends up being a completely unsympathetic psycho just in it for his own enjoyment, great! He can still be an interesting character with thematic significance without having to give us a whole sob story about what tragic events led him down the path of evil
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May 8, 2021 17:39
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What makes you think that a complex psychological profile has to include a sob story
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May 8, 2021 17:41
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HenryEx posted:What makes you think that a complex psychological profile has to include a sob story Well that's pretty much what some people are saying - Ishikawa will come along and make him a Good Character by giving him a rich backstory which explains why he's like this, and sure she might but its certainly not necessary or the only way to write a villain. Like Kefka is a simple and completely unsympathetic character, we have a brief backstory about him going insane from magitech experiments but it has practically zero effect on his interactions with the rest of the cast, and he's one of the most popular FF villains.
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May 8, 2021 17:52
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I think one of the best things about Kefka is that he seemed like more of a comic relief villain...until he wasn't.
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May 8, 2021 18:11
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the_steve posted:I think one of the best things about Kefka is that he seemed like more of a comic relief villain...until he wasn't. Yeah, that's pretty much the essence of why Kefka has always been my favorite FF villain: he seemed like he basically wasn't a threat, just someone you chumped along the way to get to the real villain. Yeah, he was obviously evil (poisoning Doma's water supply, and all), and if you weren't prepared his boss fight at Narshe could be a little tough, but otherwise he was just kind of a joke. And then suddenly he takes control of the Warring Triad, bodies Geshtal, and obliterates the world, and it takes an obvious effort on the part of the protagonists just to even get their act together, much less take the fight to him. And the thing is, when the heroes win the world doesn't suddenly go back to the way it was in the World of Balance -- regardless of anything else, Kefka still ruined the world, and his death only meant that the survivors could have some hope to rebuild without him immediately destroying it again. He "won" more than pretty much any FF villain ever has, and I just found that so interesting. And, honestly, yeah, his backstory never played any role in any of that for me, because I don't even think I was ever aware of it while playing. I guess maybe it is said SOMEWHERE in-game? Copycat Zero fucked around with this message at 18:28 on May 8, 2021 |
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May 8, 2021 18:22
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The only glimpse into his backstory you ever really see is that he was one of the first magitech infusion tests, and it broke him.
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May 8, 2021 18:51
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the_steve posted:I think one of the best things about Kefka is that he seemed like more of a comic relief villain...until he wasn't. yea kefka was fantastic because he goes from 'this literal clown is at worst a mild annoyance' to 'oh poo poo oh poo poo oh poo poo', easily one of the best twist villains I've experienced because instead of the stereotypical wormy little advisor who was the real power, or spooky magician type, or whatever, he was just a goddamn clown we beat the poo poo out of once already before he eats the triad
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May 8, 2021 18:57
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I don't think it's explicitly stated anywhere that he did so, but given that Leo is stated to have turned down the magitek infusion process (and was allowed to) and that Kefka was the first subject of Cid's infusion experiments - in all likelihood he volunteered for it, which would mean that even before something inside him snapped, he wasn't averse to the potential power of using living captives to amp him up.
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May 8, 2021 19:26
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Mr. Daniel doesn't need some sympathetic deep backstory but he does need a bit more explanation and exploration to do anything but make me go "that's it? just a guy who wants to destroy the world?" It doesn't have to be all that deep and doesn't have to give me even an ounce of sympathy for him but it's gotta be there and that's what I mean when I say I trust the writers. Like, Vauthry's "explanation" is just "he was born this way by being fused with a lightwarden in utero, and then raised as a spoiled brat". Nothing deep, but if they had just skipped that scene he would be a much worse character, to me.
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May 8, 2021 19:47
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I had been assuming it was just that he wanted to break out of the cycle of reincarnation (by permanently dying and destroying the world that tied him into the cycle in the first place), did he specifically say that somewhere or did I imagine that?
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May 8, 2021 20:25
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Badger of Basra posted:I had been assuming it was just that he wanted to break out of the cycle of reincarnation (by permanently dying and destroying the world that tied him into the cycle in the first place), did he specifically say that somewhere or did I imagine that? I don't think he qualifies for the Rez Cycle. Only the Unsundered were able to to take the Auto-Rez feature, everyone else gets the "You're immortal until someone kills you" version.
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May 8, 2021 23:04
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the_steve posted:I don't think he qualifies for the Rez Cycle. No, everyone reincarnates eventually in the FFXIV worldsetting. Whatever makes up your aether goes into the planet and is eventually reborn. This includes the sundered Ascians as we know from things like the WoL being both Azem and heavily implied Tenzen
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May 8, 2021 23:26
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I just realized, the Scions are our equivalent of the animal buddies.
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May 8, 2021 23:28
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ImpAtom posted:No, everyone reincarnates eventually in the FFXIV worldsetting. Whatever makes up your aether goes into the planet and is eventually reborn. This includes the sundered Ascians as we know from things like the WoL being both Azem and heavily implied Tenzen This is true but there’s a difference between your aether being reused in a new soul and what seems to happen to Lahabrea etc which is that the same soul comes back with all the memories of their previous lives. I guess I’m unclear as to which was happening to Fandaniel
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May 8, 2021 23:31
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The sundered Ascian shards get reborn as new people and live their entire lives obliviously, until another Ascian intervenes. This was done either through their convocation stones, or directly as with Mitron / Lohgrif, to restore their memories.
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May 8, 2021 23:35
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Unsundered Ascians need outside intervention by other Ascians and their tools to rekindle their old memories like we see during Eden's storyline, everyone gets their aether in the lifestream when they die and gets reborn in others, with the sundered having all their shards broken up and basically going into their own individual people with completely independent lives and all.
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May 8, 2021 23:44
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ImpAtom posted:No, everyone reincarnates eventually in the FFXIV worldsetting. Whatever makes up your aether goes into the planet and is eventually reborn. This includes the sundered Ascians as we know from things like the WoL being both Azem and heavily implied Tenzen We are definitely not implied to be Tenzen, for one extremely simple reason: Tenzen's soul was in the seal the entire time. Other people are allowed to be heroes too, not every historical hero is an Azem reincarnation. In fact, it's probable that exactly none of them are besides us.
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May 8, 2021 23:44
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sexpig by night posted:Unsundered Ascians need outside intervention by other Ascians and their tools to rekindle their old memories like we see during Eden's storyline, everyone gets their aether in the lifestream when they die and gets reborn in others, with the sundered having all their shards broken up and basically going into their own individual people with completely independent lives and all. You got it backwards, the Sundered need the tools to job their memories. The Unsundered never lost theirs cause they were never broken. Well except Elidibus but that's cause he was the heart for so long he kind of just lost his mind.
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May 8, 2021 23:47
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also yea we're not Tenzen, he's actually based on a dude from FFXI who was also not the player character but rather another historical hero. We're just Azem.
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May 8, 2021 23:48
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:You got it backwards, the Sundered need the tools to job their memories. The Unsundered never lost theirs cause they were never broken. Well except Elidibus but that's cause he was the heart for so long he kind of just lost his mind. oh right yea, duh, yea the unsundered wouldn't have issue because they're just...there. Eli is a special boy because being the heart hosed his brain up real bad.
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May 8, 2021 23:49
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