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I am obligated to point out that the KOTOR comic by John Jackson Miller is quite good and points out how the Order is in decline. The whole thing with Jedi not being able to love was apparently being pushed by a minority.
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May 20, 2024 02:11
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That comic is extremely good and everyone should read it.
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May 20, 2024 02:30
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NikkolasKing posted:One thing which kinda bugged me about KOTOR II is that, to match its tone, the setting is also quite different from KOTOR I. Or the situation is different, if that sounds better. This is also just a Star Wars thing at this point, or rather, a "we turned this one-off story into a franchise after it was successful" thing. ANH: We blew up the Death Star, yay! ESB: The Empire's stronger than ever and everybody's hiding in an ice cube TFA: We blew up the Starkiller, yay! TLJ: The First Order's stronger than ever and everybody's hiding in a spaceship KOTOR 1: We blew up the Star Forge, yay! KOTOR 2: Everybody died
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May 20, 2024 02:55
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At least KOTOR 2 and the trilogy said "a few years have passed and things got bad since then" while the sequels went "five minutes have passed since the end of the last movie and the galaxy has been conquered." I know every film runs on some degree of time compression but Last Jedi's time compression was unmatched until Episode 9 came out and took place over the course of twelve hours.
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May 20, 2024 03:33
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Rochallor posted:This is also just a Star Wars thing at this point, or rather, a "we turned this one-off story into a franchise after it was successful" thing. Yeah, I was about to post about this, because it's always been a bit funny to me. As mentioned earlier, the Empire still needed the Senate around for years, because "the bureaucracy" was needed to "keep the local systems line". But now they had the Death Star, so that wasn't a thing anymore, bye bye Senate. When the Death Star is destroyed at the end of ANH, the Empire should be absolutely hosed. And I think, if Star Wars had only ever been one movie, that's a perfectly reasonable conclusion to reach, that's the fall of the Empire, because they put all their eggs in the Death Star basket. But then ESB comes along, it's 3 years later, and the Empire is doing better than ever. Sure by ROTJ time it's clear they're making a new Death Star, but no one knows that yet. I guess the destruction of the Death Star is seen as a rallying point for the Rebellion (isn't that when the Mon Calamari join?) so maybe that really is the beginning of their fall? But from the two movies alone, it's a bit jarring of a transition.
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May 20, 2024 14:50
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I guess the retcon logic is that the Death Star was supposed to remove the requirement for the Senate to give people the illusion of their voices mattering, and when that went boom they reverted to boring old boots on the ground oppression via fleet-bourne giant robots.
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May 20, 2024 14:58
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Yeah, I think the Empire's position in ESB is shakier than it looks. They're going all out with the big ships and shows of force because they kind of have to after losing the Senate and Death Star, but their underlying situation is getting worse as the Rebellion gets stronger. At the time of Yavin they've been around for 19 years without any serious threats, but they pretty much collapse starting four years later. ESB is basically their last big moment before everything starts going to hell (barring any future returns of Palpatine in either canon). E: Also thinking about how the new canon emphasizes even more how much the Empire spent their first two decades in power trying to stomp out various local rebellions and Jedi enclaves, blowing up Alderaan (and to a lesser extent, killing Obi-Wan) is pretty much their high water mark. The moment they've managed to eliminate all their biggest enemies and finally secured ultimate rule over the galaxy, some hick from Tatooine screws it all up and it's just downhill from there. Lord Hydronium fucked around with this message at 17:25 on May 20, 2024 |
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May 20, 2024 17:17
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the empire being in deep poo poo during ESB isn't really shown on-screen but despite rebel leadership being nearly caught at hoth the rebellion as a whole has a lot more resources than pre-yavin as the one-two punch of "oh poo poo they destroyed a core world" and "oh...but they can't do that to US because the death star is gone" rallied a lot of ambivalent worlds to the cause. this is apparent by the time of rotj where now the rebels can put together a fleet that can go toe to toe with an enormous imperial fleet but the force build-up to that moment had to have been going on for years
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May 20, 2024 17:25
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Yeah, this is peak era of the Empire having to keep a lot of resources devoted to keeping things under control. A giant Super Star Destroyer and its accompanying fleet is good fun but also that's a lot of ship to have out there to find a band of plucky rebels in an asteroid belt. Also they've got a lot of systems under blockade and that's not cheap or easy.
Dawgstar fucked around with this message at 22:41 on May 20, 2024 |
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May 20, 2024 17:37
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Plus in new canon the Alliance is only a few years old, wasn't ready for open conflict, and got all the fleet they could muster destroyed at Scarif. I think legends had a similar battle shortly after Yavin that put the Rebels on a back foot. So in the short term the Empire comes down with overwhelming force and the Rebels can't handle it, but in the long run the Empire managed to scare a lot of fence sitters while the Alliance showed they could stand up to them militarily
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May 20, 2024 19:02
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Jazerus posted:the empire being in deep poo poo during ESB isn't really shown on-screen but despite rebel leadership being nearly caught at hoth the rebellion as a whole has a lot more resources than pre-yavin as the one-two punch of "oh poo poo they destroyed a core world" and "oh...but they can't do that to US because the death star is gone" rallied a lot of ambivalent worlds to the cause. this is apparent by the time of rotj where now the rebels can put together a fleet that can go toe to toe with an enormous imperial fleet but the force build-up to that moment had to have been going on for years
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May 20, 2024 19:42
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Almost done with Allegiance. I am thinking a lot on the characterization of Vader who, in a homicidal rage, nearly killed Mara for no real reason. Now OT Vader also killed people for little reason, but it all got me thinking. About how Anakin is often interpreted as being overly emotional and this is why folks hated him compared to the "badass" Vader. But I have to wonder if this perception is not unlike the perception of another "badass" father who is actually very emotional and petty - Gendo Ikari. Oh sure, Vader and Gendo put on masks of dispassion, but neither is ever truly the detached mastermind they pretend to be. Vader in the films might kill officers while delivering an emotionless voice-over, but I wonder if we're actually supposed to interpret this as truly emotionless. Is it really any different from him losing his mind and trying to slice Mara in half? And is any of this different from when Anakin lost his temper in, say, Labyrinth of Evil? Of course, Allegiance is written post-Prequels. Zahn's perception of Vader would be shaped by the Prequels depiction of Anakin. But ignoring such out-of-universe logic, I just like when the line between Anakin and Vader is not so distinct, no matter how "cool" Vader acts and certainly no matter how much certain fans really want there to be a huge divide.
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May 24, 2024 07:45
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Peoole think Vader is badass because he wears a long black coat while murdering people. That's all there is to it.
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May 24, 2024 15:45
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I was just talking about the "whiny Anakin" complaint and it's one of those things that it's a shame wasn't executed better since it's an interesting parallel to Luke also being a whiny teenager, which fits with why Yoda is so worried about training him
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May 24, 2024 16:33
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The reason Anakin comes off as whiny imo is twofold. 1) We don't see much of his complaints against Obi-Wan because they're separated for most of the movie, so we really only have Anakin's word for it. The only time we see them together is during the opening Coruscant bit and Obi-Wan's advice is generally pretty good? Be patient, don't jump out of a moving car, don't run into a potentially hostile environment without your laser sword. He's nagging, sure, but he's not wrong. Additionally, the audience knows that Obi-Wan turns out to be a wise master and Anakin a genocidal dictator, so we're predisposed to trust Obi-Wan and the movie doesn't do a great job showing Anakin's perspective on things. 2) His biggest visible obstacle pre-Tatooine is getting really horny for Padme but not being allowed to gently caress. Yeah yeah it's actually true love denied by society's rules, but their dialogue and chemistry sucks so that's how it comes off, especially when Anakin comes in scorching hot right out of the gate with saying Padme's sexy as hell two seconds after they've reunited. After Shmi dies, Anakin's character improves a lot but at that point it's kinda too late, we're already in a post-I Hate Sand universe and it's tough to make the audience change their mind on this. A better-written movie could have pulled this off, but Episode II is not that ninjahedgehog fucked around with this message at 19:22 on May 24, 2024 |
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May 24, 2024 19:20
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TCW does a good job of fleshing out Anakin’s character a lot more so that it actually feels tragic when he does fall later on. Lots of moments where his reckless behavior saves the day but it’s clear he’s on the edge.
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May 24, 2024 19:57
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Casimir Radon posted:TCW does a good job of fleshing out Anakin’s character a lot more so that it actually feels tragic when he does fall later on. Lots of moments where his reckless behavior saves the day but it’s clear he’s on the edge. Yeah, I think to a degree the prequels seem to have gotten a rehab because you've got younger viewers who only ever watched them alongside the Clone Wars cartoon so there are blanks they can more easily fill in when we were just coasting on Anakin muttering "Everything here is smooth" and pawing Padme. (Which is, you know, George's fault to be clear.)
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May 25, 2024 13:58
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Marvel Star Wars (2020) #46 gives us a fascinating look into Mon Mothma and her view on the Empire after her kidnapping during Lando's trialquote:"My name is Hachi. To make my way, I kidnap high-value targets. It affords me a good living. But as a side benefit, I get to meet some of the galaxy's most powerful and influential beings. You, Senator Mothma, qualify. So - this isn't an interrogation, this is a conversation."
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May 25, 2024 21:56
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I'm in the middle of Scoundrels right now (thanks, thread) and it's been a fun dumb heist so far. I did find myself double checking when it was published because of a couple weirdly out of place references though. No one remembers the Jedi but a random con artist knows enough about Revan and Malak to make an offhand reference to them??
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May 26, 2024 03:38
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Vinylshadow posted:Marvel Star Wars (2020) #46 gives us a fascinating look into Mon Mothma and her view on the Empire after her kidnapping during Lando's trial It’s better than no politics at all but I’m not convinced by the “I can’t get peaches any more” theory of political radicalization. It’s the kind of pat personal anecdote writers always seem to use in place of characters just having, you know, strong political convictions.
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May 26, 2024 03:54
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Plus wasn't Mon Mothma always one of the more pro-establishment Rebels? She was with the dissidents during the Clone Wars who wanted the emergency powers repealed but she never struck me as someone who fully radicalized even after making a run for it. She was always about restoring the status quo both in old Canon and via her appearances in the new Canon.
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May 26, 2024 04:03
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In a weird way Mon Mothma's introduction in ROTJ is the one that feels the most at odds with her character now. This hand-wringing politician is the one giving a briefing about blowing up the Death Star? She's just lucky that anybody who remembered her hemming and hawing about the first Death Star is dead already?
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May 26, 2024 05:43
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She's the political leader of the rebellion at that point. If she wants to give a briefing, who's going to tell her no?
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May 26, 2024 11:20
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It's funny how Legends Mon Mothma is the complete opposite of the modern version - she was the firebrand idealist who turned the rebellion from a controlled opposition into an active military threat to the Empire, and was aggressive enough that Bel Iblis ended up breaking away from the mainstream rebellion out of fear she'd turn out to be another Palpatine if she won. She wasn't rebelling because she couldn't get any more nice peaches.
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May 26, 2024 12:25
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Reading that anecdote as a summation of Mon Mothma's personality and motivations throughout the entire story of the rebellion seems a bit willfully blind. Clearly she has loftier ideals by the time Andor rolls around compared to whatever point in time the Peach anecdote refers to, and Mon even tries to articulate them first only to have them rejected by the person she's speaking to for sounding too high-minded. So she tells the Peach anecdote instead, and through it basically communicates the same ideals as before but in a way that she can make her audience of one personally relate to. Unless some other EU source confirms that it actually happened, I'm inclined to believe she just made it up on the spot like a proper politician.
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May 26, 2024 12:49
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Being wilfully blind is how we engage with Star Wars though.
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May 27, 2024 12:40
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Slashrat posted:Reading that anecdote as a summation of Mon Mothma's personality and motivations throughout the entire story of the rebellion seems a bit willfully blind. Clearly she has loftier ideals by the time Andor rolls around compared to whatever point in time the Peach anecdote refers to I find it pretty hard to believe that Mon Mothma, a senator, was radicalized by her inability to access peaches (shades of Auralnauts???) rather than by being a democratically (?) elected politician during the fall of the Republic and the rise of the Empire. American writing often treats politics as a thing of the present, a reluctant reaction to now-unavoidable truths, a break from the hazy idealized past where we didn't need political beliefs because everything was fine - rather than as something human beings constantly engage in. Especially ones who are professional politicians. I'm not disputing that this sounds like the kind of anecdote a politician might use, just saying I don't like it much.
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May 27, 2024 17:22
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Hearing about "Mon Mothma's kidnapping" and "Lando's trial" just makes me realize how out of touch for the last half decade of the New EU I am.
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May 27, 2024 17:32
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Slashrat posted:Clearly she has loftier ideals by the time Andor rolls around compared to whatever point in time the Peach anecdote refers to quote:The path starts differently for every rebel, but we all eventually reach two moments of clarity. First, something happens to pull back the veil. The fundamental evil of the Empire's rule is made clear. You feel the grim reality of it down to your bones. Second, you decide that reality is intolerable - not just for others, but for you. For anyone. And then you fight, however you can. It's the same kind of speech Maarva Andor gave quote:We've been sleeping. We've had each other, and Ferrix, our work, our days. We had each other, and they left us alone. We kept the trade lanes open, and they left us alone. We took their money and ignored them, we kept their engines churning, and the moment they pulled away, we forgot them. Because we had each other. We had Ferrix.
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May 27, 2024 17:48
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The difference is that Maarva's speech is actually good and we'd been along for the ride witnessing the Imperial occupation and seeing the flashbacks to her husband's murder. We can see from who Maarva is and what she went through to understand how she finally found a line that had been crossed. It's not a rich aristocrat bemoaning the lack of exotic peaches in her refrigerator. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 18:31 on May 27, 2024 |
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May 27, 2024 18:29
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It does feel like Charles Soule saw Andor, enjoyed the Mon Mothma storyline, then tried to recreate aspects of it in the comics Which doesn't quite work since Mothma's rarely at the forefront of any story, and they've been mired down in several year-long multi-comic series story arcs, hence why it's shoehorned into Lando's trial (she was kidnapped, gave her speech, and promptly rescued right after it)
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May 28, 2024 12:29
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Chairman Capone posted:Hearing about "Mon Mothma's kidnapping" and "Lando's trial" just makes me realize how out of touch for the last half decade of the New EU I am. I really enjoyed the first couple of years of comics and was looking into what's been going on recently, and it looks like it's been non-stop crossovers for like the last... three years? It seems completely impenetrable now.
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May 28, 2024 13:36
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The mainline books have turned into the usual Marvel stream of events and crossovers and references to Marvel comics from the 70s, but the miniseries are usually better.
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May 28, 2024 13:51
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At least the volumes make is a bit more readable, but issue to issue it's an utter nightmare https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Dark_Droids The 'crossover' section is just silly War of the Bounty Hunters was probably the worst offender, since many series took place concurrently, with the same scenes and dialogue, but drawn from a different character's point of view, so god help you if you were off by a couple of issues and jumped ahead two story beats since the series are released out of sync with one another https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_War_of_the_Bounty_Hunters hm yes I will read issues 1, 13, 14, 13, 11 in order, this makes sense
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May 28, 2024 16:06
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The political situation inThe Force Awakens seemed vague and weird to me. You have the Republic with their mighty fleet, weren't they supposed to be the major galactic power? The First Order - they're more like a rogue state or rebellion, right? But then there's the Resistance. Shouldn't the Resistance just be the Republic? I don't get it!
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May 31, 2024 04:01
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Mulaney Power Move posted:The political situation inThe Force Awakens seemed vague and weird to me. You have the Republic with their mighty fleet, weren't they supposed to be the major galactic power? The First Order - they're more like a rogue state or rebellion, right? But then there's the Resistance. Shouldn't the Resistance just be the Republic? I don't get it! this part does actually make sense- the resistance (terrible name tho) is basically a semi deniable paramilitary group thats out fighting the remnants of the empire because the republic can't be bothered. they're basically the provisional ira with fighter jets. now from there the rest of the story gets really stupid, but the initial premise could have worked out
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May 31, 2024 04:15
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It mostly makes sense if you factor in a whole bunch of details that the movie itself never actually tells you In short, it is the Elijah Wood tweet https://x.com/elijahwood/status/1229632586760081409
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May 31, 2024 04:16
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StashAugustine posted:this part does actually make sense- the resistance (terrible name tho) is basically a semi deniable paramilitary group thats out fighting the remnants of the empire because the republic can't be bothered. they're basically the provisional ira with fighter jets. now from there the rest of the story gets really stupid, but the initial premise could have worked out no i think the first part is pretty stupid too
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May 31, 2024 04:19
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Mulaney Power Move posted:no i think the first part is pretty stupid too States sponsoring militant groups to fight wars they don’t want to get involved in is for better or worse extremely common and could’ve been the foundation for a cool story. I think there’s a version of the sequel trilogy that is much more about money money money and therefore in line with both my and George Lucas’ interests. Unfortunately this would involve space politics and therefore frighten Disney.
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May 31, 2024 14:34
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“The Resistance is Hezbollah” could only have led to a lot of extremely normal, cool discussions about Star Wars.
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May 31, 2024 14:35
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