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Kilroy posted:Perhaps, but it's not clear which is which. If the Democratic party is truly a lost cause then it's better for leftists to start building something else ASAFP rather than continue to futilely direct their efforts to reforming the party from within. It seems pretty clear to me which party harbors people who would honestly consider killing everyone in this thread and which doesn't.
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Feb 26, 2017 20:54
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Kilroy posted:Yep, you need the votes of DNC insiders who vote on the next chair, and most of them just signaled they'd rather see the party dead and buried before they compromise with the progressive wing. Remind me again why progressives and leftists should want anything to do with this poo poo show of a "political party"? If leftists start primarying out centrists with their own then those "insiders" are now ones on the leftists side.
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Feb 26, 2017 20:55
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Oxxidation posted:The fact that the leadership had nothing to do with the recent Delaware election is pretty telling. Lemme guess - fighting Pudzer, Pruitt, De Vos and sessions was just a smokescreen. Cunningly doing everything they could to oppose Trump to make it look like they did.
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Feb 26, 2017 20:55
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maou shoujo posted:So symbolic, they couldn't even be bothered to mention him in the results. https://twitter.com/DarbyKathleen/status/835891887772839936
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Feb 26, 2017 20:55
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maou shoujo posted:So symbolic, they couldn't even be bothered to mention him in the results. It's these little things that make me love the dems.
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Feb 26, 2017 20:56
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Fulchrum posted:You still haven't answered my questions. Who was the first candidate put up who was too progressive, and Ellisson was a compromise for, and what bills have Republicans signed into law for their voting base in the last month that proves they respect their base and treat them right?
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Feb 26, 2017 20:56
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maou shoujo posted:So symbolic, they couldn't even be bothered to mention him in the results. Because the position was appointed and that tweet is listing elected positions. But clearly this is proof of
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Feb 26, 2017 20:56
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That poo poo they posted on their twitter seems like it undermines Perez too. Like "lol that thing you did don't matter" Edit: or its elected vs appointed. Up is down, day is night, cats are dogs, etc.
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Feb 26, 2017 20:57
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maou shoujo posted:So symbolic, they couldn't even be bothered to mention him in the results. God bless this mess.
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Feb 26, 2017 20:57
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mcmagic posted:No. They need ~50 strong candidates 1 year from now. My original post said they need to win in 2018 and field a good prez candidate in 2.5 years. They need both things and it doesn't look like they are ready.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:00
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Kilroy posted:There was no "first candidate" you idiot. Ellison was the compromise between the establishment and the progressives and evidenced by his endorsements very early on by high-ranking members of the party in both factions, Sanders and Schumer being the two big ones. That's all there is to it - you seem to think that since the progressives didn't dig up Friedrich Engels' corpse and run him instead, that Ellison was not the compromise, but that just betrays a pretty basic misapprehension on your part of what a compromise even is. Somehow, I'm not surprised. You understand that all this proves is how progressive Schumer is, right, that the Sanders wings opening bid is something he immediately went for? Like, do you understand even the word compromise? Does it exist in your brain? And still waiting on all those bills signed by Trump that prove Republicans love their base so very very much.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:00
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Are American leftists obsessed with optics? Look at the brief wankfest over McCain before everone recalled he's a proficient illusionist.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:01
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loving  at all of the third way shills pissing themselves over the fact that a good deal of their former supporters are loving sick and tired of the corporatist poo poo that's been forced down their throats since Reagan took office. People are rightfully goddamned pissed the gently caress off because they have seen their way of life evaporate right in front of them, the millennials have pretty much no hope for a meaningful future, and the 1% keeps loving everyone and the corporatist ratfuckers are praying to keep the big tent together just so they can keep their comfy consulting and lobbying gigs.I hate to be so glib as to say "It's the economy, stupid" but a good portion of it really does come down to that. You can't expect people to be all about party unity and ending injustice if they don't feel financially secure and have to work two or more jobs just to keep from being destitute. And ever since globalization and poo poo like NAFTA was forced down the throats of Democrats in the name of party unity and the so called third way, they've been hemorrhaging supporters ever since. News flash: people don't like it when they lose their jobs and will lash out and cling to whichever politician at least pays lip service to their plight.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:04
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Fulchrum posted:You understand that all this proves is how progressive Schumer is, right, that the Sanders wings opening bid is something he immediately went for? Like, do you understand even the word compromise? Does it exist in your brain? Yeah I'm sure nobody on the progressive side talked with anyone on the establishment side and hashed it out first. It was just Sanders endorsing Ellison apropos of nothing, and then afterward Schumer just happened to say "oh, that sounds like a great idea! wish I'd thought of it! endorsed!" I'd accuse you of being willfully obtuse but in fact I think you're actually this stupid. Fulchrum posted:And still waiting on all those bills signed by Trump that prove Republicans love their base so very very much. Also you can look at how they behaved as an opposition party under Obama for more evidence of same.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:05
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Huge_Midget posted:loving Good thing we have elected a DNC chair with a history of fighting and organizing for labor and civil rights.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:07
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I ain't no third way motherfucker just because I don't want to eat Perez's flesh. This is a distraction from house and senate elections.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:08
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i would very much like to vote for dems because our system is broken enough that the notion you're throwing away your vote when you support a third-party is true, and that it will favor GOP, and that GOP staying in power will result in a lot more death and suffering and maybe even the end of everything humanity has ever worked towards if we continue to gently caress up with climate change. that's why it's so scary and frustrating and disheartening when the only party with a realistic chance of opposition repeats stupid and easily avoidable mistakes that make them less popular, and when they actively resist attempts to change what's not working and deflect criticism that could help them improve and alienate young people who are the future of the party. i'm trying my best to work within the party towards a direction that will draw in more support and widen the pool of voters to topple the GOP and it feels like my efforts keep getting rewarded with a slap in the face, and as this goes on it gets harder and harder to convince people to stay on board.Zerilan posted:You got your symbolic victory in Ellison being deputy chair. DNC Chair itself was an election, and for that you need votes. that's the loving problem, the votes were supposed to show how willing insiders were to work with the left under the same party and it turns out they weren't ready, so now the left will spend their energy elsewhere instead of wasting their effort with power struggles.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:09
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Fulchrum posted:You understand that all this proves is how progressive Schumer is What exactly do you think the word "progressive" means?
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Feb 26, 2017 21:09
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Lightning Lord posted:It seems pretty clear to me which party harbors people who would honestly consider killing everyone in this thread and which doesn't. Yeah Joe Schmo in Grand Rapids, Michigan loves murdering liberals, that's totally why he voted for Obama in 2012 and Trump in 2016.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:10
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Trabisnikof posted:Good thing we have elected a DNC chair with a history of fighting and organizing for labor and civil rights. Yeah but he wasn't endorsed by Bernie so he's actually evil and must be purged.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:11
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Lightning Lord posted:I ain't no third way motherfucker just because I don't want to eat Perez's flesh. which will be going to republicans, because who wants wimpy islamophobes like the dems?
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Feb 26, 2017 21:11
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Kilroy posted:You're projecting again. quote:*glances over at cabinet* Whereas Obama, famously, never had a cabinet quote:Also you can look at how they behaved as an opposition party under Obama for more evidence of same. But they didn't roll over and say thank you for the first candidate Bernie deigned to pick, so clearly they just want to see their voters dead. Also, neither of these things are bills; you complete moron.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:14
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Trabisnikof posted:Good thing we have elected a DNC chair with a history of fighting and organizing for labor and civil rights. B...b.b.b..b.b..but chuck schumer supports him! *foams at the mouth and pisses himself*
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Feb 26, 2017 21:17
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For everyone concern trolling about Sanders supporters being shiftless anger addicts who just want to destroy the Democratic party, well, this just happened: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/delaware-special-senate-election_us_58b22659e4b060480e089560?3uk9zh353rq7zxgvi (yes, I know, huffpo but stay with me here) quote:Hansen’s campaign received huge support. More than 1,000 volunteers worked during the course of the campaign, and about 500 ― many from nearby states ― showed up Saturday for Election Day. Hansen received more than 14,000 contributions of less than $100 from small donors spread all over the country. Stephanie Hansens is, by no measure, a progressive crowd favorite. She's a run of the mill, cookie cutter Dem candidate. We will show up, work hard and put these people in power. We're not stupid or shortsighted, and we're not staying home.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:18
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:For everyone concern trolling about Sanders supporters being shiftless anger addicts who just want to destroy the Democratic party, well, this just happened: For those who've forgotten, this is the kind of stuff Sanders was talking about if you want to be taken seriously. "I'm here, gimme or I leave" isn't going to work. Putting people in office and holding them accountable does (and you can primary them if you feel they failed and/or someone else will do better).
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Feb 26, 2017 21:26
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Fulchrum posted:Yeah, by loving definition that is what happened, otherwise the establishment would have been on board with their candidate. The simple fact that they weren't okay with him, proves that nobody checked to make sure that they were okay with him. Like, how does your brain work that you cannot understand this? It seems you think the progressive wing is composed of a single person, and the establishment wing is composed of a single person. This is a basic reasoning fail and you should probably get an MRI or something. You might have an aneurysm. And yeah there are some bills in committee right now that probably won't pass, and some more already thrown out that definitely won't pass and which are pure red-meat sort of thing. It's more than we ever get out of finger-wagging Democrats. You're the one who brought up bills specifically so not sure what you're going on about, but I can't stop you from bringing it up in every post of mine you reply to, so have at it I guess 
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Feb 26, 2017 21:26
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Evil Fluffy posted:For those who've forgotten, this is the kind of stuff Sanders was talking about if you want to be taken seriously. "I'm here, gimme or I leave" isn't going to work. Putting people in office and holding them accountable does (and you can primary them if you feel they failed and/or someone else will do better). working for centrist dems who will turn around and ignore you afterwords doesn't sound like a good idea to me. a better idea is to work in orgs like DSA as a left-wing tea party and work to primary out the centrists seems to me like our efforts would be better spent on things other than working to elect supply-side democrats
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Feb 26, 2017 21:29
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:For everyone concern trolling about Sanders supporters being shiftless anger addicts who just want to destroy the Democratic party, well, this just happened: I think that might be the crux of the matter. For all the Demexit we see on the internet, it really seems like they never were reliable democratic votes; they aren't the base. Which is why I keep saying the path to power for leftists is showing up and taking lumps and insults and coming back for more. Not because it's noble or because I have some patronizing instincts towards them, but because they appear to be only a significant minority of the overall coalition and the practical path to power in a two party system is to force yourself into one party and never let yourself be dislodged. Like the tea party. They aren't the majority of republicans but they're dug into the throats of the GOP deeper than a facehugger and they get what they want because of it. Basically I'm trying to say "gently caress the Centrists if you must but I think you have to be in arms reach to do it."
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Feb 26, 2017 21:30
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Condiv posted:working for centrist dems who will turn around and ignore you afterwords doesn't sound like a good idea to me. a better idea is to work in orgs like DSA as a left-wing tea party and work to primary out the centrists Still, if you're interested in keeping the party strong victories like this aren't bad, they just can't be the only thing you do or even your primary focus.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:32
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Evil Fluffy posted:For those who've forgotten, this is the kind of stuff Sanders was talking about if you want to be taken seriously. "I'm here, gimme or I leave" isn't going to work. Putting people in office and holding them accountable does (and you can primary them if you feel they failed and/or someone else will do better). Pretty much. People like Condiv and readingwork and TBS are loving useless but I don't think they're representative of the activist or Sanders coalition as a whole.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:33
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^^^ I'd have been surprised if they didn't miss/ignore Sanders' message tbh.Kilroy posted:Eh, doing both is better though. There is no doubt that establishment DLC Democrat types will gladly take this energy and activism and use it to get elected, while doing nothing in return to keep that level of engagement up or grow the party. They are parasites and that's the nature of a parasite. That's why primaries exist. They'll have a hard time keeping their seat if that same energy gets turned against them in the primaries where turnouts are lower and thus a small engaged group's impact is that much more significant.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:35
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Kilroy posted:Eh, doing both is better though. There is no doubt that establishment DLC Democrat types will gladly take this energy and activism and use it to get elected, while doing nothing in return to keep that level of engagement up or grow the party. They are parasites and that's the nature of a parasite. electing centrists is bad because they will just use the chance to stab you in the back. centrists are only good at fighting the left and giving in to the right.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:36
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Huge_Midget posted:And ever since globalization and poo poo like NAFTA was forced down the throats of Democrats in the name of party unity and the so called third way, they've been hemorrhaging supporters ever since. Yes, hemorrhaging that powerhouse voting bloc they had from 1968 to 1992 and then winning the popular vote in five of the next six presidential elections. Y'all have a point but the hyperbole doesn't help.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:37
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:For everyone concern trolling about Sanders supporters being shiftless anger addicts who just want to destroy the Democratic party, well, this just happened: Most Sanders supporters are run of the mill Democrats. 80-90% of them. That probably infuriates some of the outliers here who claim to speak for people they would probably call "third way assholes" or "centrist fuckboys" or whatever pleasant names they come up with if they talked to them for a few minutes.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:43
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XyrlocShammypants posted:Most Sanders supporters are run of the mill Democrats. 80-90% of them. That probably infuriates some of the outliers here who claim to speak for people they would probably call "third way assholes" or "centrist fuckboys" or whatever pleasant names they come up with if they talked to them for a few minutes. do you spend a lot of time thinking of insults to call yourself? doesn't seem healthy xyrloc
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Feb 26, 2017 21:45
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Trump just proved there is no establishment. If the usual suspects are too centrist/venal, primary them. It's not that hard given how pathetic midterm primary turnout is.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:49
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XyrlocShammypants posted:Most Sanders supporters are run of the mill Democrats. 80-90% of them. That probably infuriates some of the outliers here who claim to speak for people they would probably call "third way assholes" or "centrist fuckboys" or whatever pleasant names they come up with if they talked to them for a few minutes. If they supported Sanders then they aren't run of the mill democrats w/r/t party policy.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:49
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Condiv posted:and they'll change in our favor despite us doing nothing different! We can. We can keep up pressure on elected officials. Knowing that they have to listen to us or else they get Cantor'ed. We can take over local party apparatus so people like Fulchrum and Xyloc have no power. The fact Perez had to make this concession and barley won means we have only to organize harder to purify the party from corrupt creatures. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Feb 26, 2017 |
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Feb 26, 2017 21:54
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i am the bird posted:Yes, hemorrhaging that powerhouse voting bloc they had from 1968 to 1992 and then winning the popular vote in five of the next six presidential elections. Losing TWICE to Bush W. and then doing this:  Nothing to brag about.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:55
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Lightning Lord posted:I ain't no third way morherfucker just because I don't want to eat Perez's flesh. I agree with this, and yellowyams makes a very important point as well. There is quite a lot on the line here, and while there is still good reason to take action outside of the Democratic party, it is incredibly important to establish a foothold at the lower levels in order to advance candidates people actually give a drat about. I can't say the DNC chair results aren't negative, because it is easy to imagine this kind of strife would not be happening if Ellison had been the winner; enthusiasm matters, and I worry this incident imperils it. At the same time, under no circumstances am I willing to simply cede any more power to a fascist party. I fully understand how posters like Condiv feel, and I knew it especially well after the 2016 primaries and general election, that we would field one of the worst possible candidates for one of the most important races of all time. Yet I do not believe a loss of Democratic state houses and senate seats would result in anything positive -- short term or long. Do what you can to bolster the grassroots progressives, supplant who you must if they cannot read the writing on the wall-- and be underhanded if you have to -- but we are in perilous, uncharted waters. I feel at this point I am simply rambling the same sentiments shared by other posters, when I finish this will probably be redundant. But this point of crisis we have reached matters to me like few other things in my life, and so, if nothing else, I would do my best to deny as much power as possible to what is no more than a cancerous amalgamation of everything bad about our species. A bit of a rant, and ultimately not all that helpful, but it's been a frustrating couple of days.
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Feb 26, 2017 22:12
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