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PetraCore posted:FWIW I definitely think the mental illness in a huge factor in how Yasu sees the world, but I don't think it's what made them kill. That would be more of the horrific abusive environment and situational depression, from what we've seen so far. The distinction is subtle but important in that the idea that mental illness alone makes people violent or dangerous has gone some pretty bad places before. 100% agreed. The mental illness is a complicating factor that I think made the situation more likely to develop as it did in the first place and also probably would have made it more difficult for anyone else to successfully help Yasu out of the mire had anyone had any interest in trying or even realized there was a need to do so, but it is in no way the proximate cause.
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Sep 2, 2017 06:02
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PetraCore posted:Yeah, I agree with that. I just think that's why there's got to be a reason that murder seemed to be the only way out from Yasu's point of view when stuff went down. I think we can probably try to figure out why one year earlier wouldn't have resulted in killings. I'd say it's Kinzo's death, but he was already dead that last year. Something that resulted from Kinzo's death, perhaps? PetraCore posted:I wonder if there's an empty bed prepared for Ange, then? There probably was at one point, but said room has likely been relocked given they also heard ahead of time that she wouldn't be coming.
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Sep 2, 2017 07:07
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ZiegeDame posted:But Shannon and Kanon aren't just metaphors for competing philosophies or desires, they are actual physical presentations that other people see. For all Yasu/Beato hates mirrors for showing their true face, the true faces of Kanon/Shannon are distinct enough that Battler cannot recognize them as the same person. The love duel isn't just about whether Yasu will marry George or date Jessica, but about whether they will be Sayo or Yoshiya. (And the two are distinct enough personality-wise that the difference matters.) And I can certainly think of situations where someone might have to make such a decision, but that isn't what's been presented here. Though to be fair, it isn't over yet. Why can't they be both? Like, it's possible for Yasu to both act out those roles in reality and have them represent different aspects of her feelings/motivations. Also, the fact that she acts them out doesn't mean that internally she isn't totally aware of what she's doing. Cyouni posted:Correct, incorrect, does it really matter? In the end, the result is the same - the characters I can relate the most to are Erika and Bernkastel. Not Yasu, not Maria (well, perhaps a bit Maria). How 'correct' that is I'll leave to others to decide. Do you think Erika is actually rational in the way she approaches things? Because it seems to me like she's also heavily biased, but just sorta papers it over with this veneer of selectively-applied skepticism. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 09:20 on Sep 2, 2017 |
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Sep 2, 2017 09:08
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Cyouni posted:I think we can probably try to figure out why one year earlier wouldn't have resulted in killings. I'd say it's Kinzo's death, but he was already dead that last year. Something that resulted from Kinzo's death, perhaps? Well, if it's not Kinzo's death, there's a whole year between the conferences. What happened?
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Sep 2, 2017 16:35
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Probably a combo platter of things that pushed Yasu to the edge: -George's Proposal meaning they have to be locked in as Sayo/Shannon, abandoning their other defense mechanisms -Jessica getting more serious in her romantic interests, pulling on Yoshiya/Kanon -Natsuhi and Krauss playing Weekend at Bernies with Kinzo, Yasu may have wish they acknowledge he's actually dead to slam the door on that particular sore point (assuming Yasu did in fact discover the horrible truth) instead of having to pretend this rear end in a top hat is alive and well. -Battler coming back opening up that old scar. all of them working as straws upon the camel's back that is Yasu's ability to cope.
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Sep 2, 2017 16:49
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Ytlaya posted:Also, the fact that she acts them out doesn't mean that internally she isn't totally aware of what she's doing. Right, it's this story from just after the point Yasu decided to be a butterfly that suggests that.
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Sep 2, 2017 18:19
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Ytlaya posted:Why can't they be both? Like, it's possible for Yasu to both act out those roles in reality and have them represent different aspects of her feelings/motivations. Also, the fact that she acts them out doesn't mean that internally she isn't totally aware of what she's doing. Ytlaya posted:Do you think Erika is actually rational in the way she approaches things? Because it seems to me like she's also heavily biased, but just sorta papers it over with this veneer of selectively-applied skepticism. Well, for the short answer, no. We understood that ourselves, and it was also brought up by Dlanor in Self-Reliance. For the long answer, it begins to get into  territory. So that's the warning for that.I don't think anyone can really approach anything completely rationally. As noted in episode 2 with "what color is the sea", two people can look at the same situation and see it completely differently, even as they both claim that they're being rational about it. That's what it means to be human. Each person is going to have their own interpretation and analysis of the same series of events, and that's natural. Hell, you can even use this thread as an example - I would be very surprised (and quite disbelieving) to find that anyone had approached this from a completely neutral perspective. The power of the unconscious mind is subtle enough that I don't believe it's realistically possible. On a slightly different note, there are also a few actions that are completely rational, but fall out of line on the moral scale. I trust this needs no elaboration. tiistai posted:Well, if it's not Kinzo's death, there's a whole year between the conferences. What happened? There are a few possibilities floating around in my mind right now. First is the relationship with George, which hadn't gone to full fruition yet. My calculations suggest 1.5-2 years is probably the time they were in a relationship, which wouldn't have forced the 'lock-in' of Sayo last year. The whole thing with Jessica appears to have started within the last year or so as well. Then there's the solving of the epitaph and the complications from it, which is probably what causes the whole "servant with the One-Winged Eagle" thing. Cyouni fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Sep 2, 2017 |
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Sep 2, 2017 23:03
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Cyouni posted:On a slightly different note, there are also a few actions that are completely rational, but fall out of line on the moral scale. I trust this needs no elaboration. Nonsense, decapitating five people is a perfectly reasonable way to win an argument.
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Sep 2, 2017 23:18
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ZiegeDame posted:Nonsense, decapitating five people is a perfectly reasonable way to win an argument. This is why some people got no friends.
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Sep 2, 2017 23:35
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:This is why some people got no friends. I've never decapitated a thing and I still barely have friends.
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Sep 3, 2017 04:39
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bman in 2288 posted:I've never decapitated a thing and I still barely have friends. That's what you're doing wrong! What do you think your friends are for?
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Sep 3, 2017 05:55
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Cyouni posted:That's what you're doing wrong! What do you think your friends are for? To let me think that, despite my numerous and never-ending fuckups and estranging personality, there are people who actually enjoy being around me?
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Sep 3, 2017 15:44
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bman in 2288 posted:To let me think that, despite my numerous and never-ending fuckups and estranging personality, there are people who actually enjoy being around me? Wrong. Friends are for doing witchcraft and planning murders.
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Sep 3, 2017 18:14
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Guys, guys. You don't decapitate your friends. Otherwise, who will help you bury the people you decapitate?
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Sep 3, 2017 19:28
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idonotlikepeas posted:Guys, guys. You don't decapitate your friends. Otherwise, who will help you bury the people you decapitate? You revive some of them so they can help you bury the rest.
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Sep 3, 2017 19:42
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idonotlikepeas posted:Guys, guys. You don't decapitate your friends. Obviously. You crush, strangle, or poison them. Duh.
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Sep 3, 2017 19:44
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idonotlikepeas posted:Guys, guys. You don't decapitate your friends. Otherwise, who will help you bury the people you decapitate? Bury?  but then how is anyone supposed to find them? That's just rude.
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Sep 3, 2017 19:50
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I know that I'm late on this, but you folks don't know how amazed and happy I am that DR LOU LIVES.
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Sep 4, 2017 08:13
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I don't remember if the tenth twilight of the Steam translation was ever actually solved in the thread, but this is the part where it would be revealed too, whenever Mangagamer finally decides to release Chiru. "On the tenth twilight, at journey's end, you shall attain to the power of the Golden Land's treasures, once and for the last time." "The witch shall praise the wise and bestow four treasures." A ten to the power of four times four, 10^16, ten quadrillion.
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Sep 4, 2017 13:50
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  There's only one place you'll find that word on Rokkenjima. Gold butterflies flitted from shadow to shadow, dodging raindrops.  "...Unless my memory is mistaken, this is probably the place." It was called the chapel, but not once had Kinzo used it for worship, and the members of the family had never been allowed inside. There were strict orders that none approach it without reason, and its purpose has always been a mystery. However, all of these mysteries got boring after several decades. At some point, everyone forgot the chapel even existed, and that splendid building passed from the thoughts of Rokkenjima's residents... Of course, this had been true for Beato as well. Beato, who hated boredom, had no desire to approach places that humans never went. Her last memory was of the time she went in there to taunt Shannon as she tried to clean.  "...There can be no doubt. That is it. Quadrillion."Beato looked up... above the door of the chapel. There was a relief displayed over an arch. English words were written there.  BGM: Sukashiyuri This chapel was built long ago. If there is a device like the one I imagine, Kinzo must have prepared that epitaph riddle many decades ago. He must have been planning to use it as a ceremony for choosing a fitting successor all that time. However, that ceremony is now a ceremony to open the door to the Golden Land and to my resurrection. When I snapped my fingers, the ground bulged, and several snake-like dead trees sprouted up. They twisted around each other to form a ladder, which leaned itself against the door.  "If my guess is right, there's some sort of device in that relief."I slowly climbed the ladder. Because of the size of the door, the relief was very high up. This close up, it looks much bigger than it did from the ground.  I thought it strange, but nothing more. The Master treasured this relief, so the head servant cared for it himself. I always accepted that excuse. But now, I understand. There must be something in this relief. And Genji polished it himself to make sure than no one else accidentally found out...  The tips of my fingers touched the 'q'. My fingertips were soon covered with dust. However, I quickly realized that there was something strange about it.  "...Don't tell me this letter... No, it had to be like this. There would be no other way to offer up sacrifices..." BGM: 7 Weights  "Just... as I thought..."Here's the 'q' I pulled out. And this part's a wedge... no. It's a key. A key was attached to the back of the 'q', and that had been stuck into a key hole in the relief. "...I see... In that case, I know what to do next. Very good, this 'q' key is a wrong answer. Enough with you."Beato carelessly tossed the 'q' key aside. This was the first sacrifice. She kept on pulling out the keys for the six letters representing 'the key'. "...So, 'a' will also be sacrificed. And both 'i's. And then the 'n' at the end." "Now, I only sacrifice one 'l', but unfortunately, there are two 'l's here."There were two 'l's. I didn't know which I should sacrifice. I tried pulling both out, but the keys were of different shapes. So, one is a right answer, and one is a wrong answer. "Well, there are only two. If I make a mistake, I can just try the other one."Unless messing up sets off a trap that blows up the island, of course. Thinking it a waste of time to sit here worrying, I decided on the right 'l' and pulled it out. Five letters remained in the word.   "And now, the first twilight is over. On to the second twilight."On the second twilight, those who remain shall tear apart the two who are close.  "The 'd' and 'r' are close. What does it mean to tear them apart...? Do I pull them out?"But if I do, there will only be three letters left. By this point, I was able to make a good guess at what the 'gouge and kill' lines meant. "Gouge and kill probably means to turn the keys and take them out. In that case, the parts about going from head to leg must mean starting at the left and going right."If that's the case, there must be five characters left on the board. In other words, 'tear apart' doesn't mean kill. "If so, then we can read 'tear apart' to mean putting a gap between the 'd' and the 'r'. But how? Once again, there are two ways to do it...?"Do I remove the 'd' and move it to the left? Do I remove the 'r' and move it to the right? ...After pondering this for some time, I realized that both choices were wrong. "No. That's not right. I've had it wrong since I removed that 'l'."  If you line it up this way, it's easy to see the next step. The 'r' gets shifted to the right.   "And this next part... is another tough one. Praise my name...?"It's already clear that this is a word game. Those who remain shall praise my noble name. Just what are the remaining five letters supposed to do? Probably change their order to form a word. "...'u', 'd', 'r', 'l', 'o'... What should be done about these five letters?"Praise... my name.  "Heh. How can I get stuck after coming so far...? How are these five letters supposed to praise a name...?!"That man's name is Ushiromiya Kinzo. Is the 'u' part of Ushiromiya...? No, several letters don't match, and there aren't nearly enough letters to make Ushiromiya... "One thing that is certain... 'My name' must refer to Kinzo. Then, does the 'u' stand for Ushiromiya after all? Like an initial. Then what do the 'd', 'r', 'l', and 'o' stand for? They can't mean Kinzo. Do the 'r' and 'o'...stand for Rokkenjima...? The master of Rokkenjima, Kinzo... Hmm, not nearly enough letters..."This riddle left me totally confused. However, there were only five letters left. There can't be so many possible combinations of those letters. I could use process of elimination. Thinking I'd play around with it, I pulled out the 'u'. There were four letters left. 'd', 'r', 'l', and 'o'. "..."My idea that the 'u' stood for Ushiromiya was like a heavenly oracle. When I removed the 'u', I thought of making a word with the remaining four letters. 'd', 'r', 'l', and 'o'. Those four letters spun around in my head, changing their orders, and latched upon a single English word that would serve to 'praise' Kinzo...  I had absolutely no basis for it. However, it was like a flash of inspiration. I quickly changed the letters around before that flash faded from my mind.  "On the fourth twilight, gouge the head... oho?!"It was a key, so it wouldn't have turned if it was the wrong one. But it did turn. I managed to gouge it...! I gouged the first letter, the 'l', with a click, and then pulled it out. "Next, the fifth twilight...? Gouge the chest... and kill...!"The 'o' was gouged and pulled out easily. Then, the 'r'. Next, the 'd'. And finally, the 'u'.  When I turned the key of the 'u', I could feel a resistance, as though some device had been activated. I waited for something to change, but nothing did. However, I had felt something happen. A secret door must have opened up somewhere around here. ...Waiting around won't accomplish anything. I've probably done everything I can here... All of the letters in quadrillion had been removed.  "On the ninth twilight, the witch shall revive, and none shall be left alive..."So, this way, has the witch... have I... revived...? The tenth twilight. The journey shall end, and you shall reach the capital where the gold dwells... When I stepped down off the ladder and looked around, I immediately noticed that small change.  BGM: Dead Angle At some point, the lion statue in front of the chapel had turned to face a different direction. How did that work? Did Kinzo plan up this extravagant device back when he first started building on this island...? I walked up to the lion statue and stared at it. Other than the fact that it was pointing a different direction, nothing had changed. In that case, is the lion looking at something in particular now...? I followed its line of sight... and saw another lion statue. And that lion statue had also changed its direction.  "I see... So, follow the lion guideposts. As intricate as ever, I see, Kinzo."I wasn't complaining anymore. I felt a bit of respect and awe at Kinzo for setting up such an intricate device and having it go undiscovered for all these years. There were lion statues standing like guards at the entrance and the corners of the chapel. The direction they faced had changed, pointing around to the back of the chapel. There was something there.  "...Hoh..."It was no longer a surprise. This was after the device in the letters. After being guided by the lions. So, when a gaping open secret passageway appeared, with stairs leading down to the darkness below, it wasn't surprising to me anymore. "So, is this the entrance to the Golden Land, Kinzo...?!!" BGM: None  "Yes. It took ages and ages to reach... the Golden Land." "According to the previous games, there was an underground VIP room there, along with ten tons of gold, right?" "Yes. After going down a rough stairway, there was a door at the end of the passage. Inside, it was beautifully furnished, a true VIP room." "...And is the gold all you found there?" "Yes, at the time... It would be a lie to say that I was not dizzied by the sight of all that gold stacked high..." I lightly touched the pile of gold with my finger. It was hard... and cold. I must have imagined that it would crumble like a sand castle if I touched it. Now, there could be no doubt. This certainly was... a ten ton pile of gold ingots.  "...Haha, ha..."Considering the amount of gold I had just found, I figured I ought to be crying out in delight. I didn't really feel like laughing, but I thought it only good manners to do so in a situation like this, so I forced it out. Because of this, only a few feeble laughs slipped from my mouth. At that moment, even stronger than any delight was a feeling as though I'd entered a place I wasn't supposed to be... I couldn't think of what I should do next, now that the epitaph's riddle had been completed. Then, I heard approaching footsteps. It was coming from the stairway I had entered by. Someone was coming. Could it be... Kinzo? If he finds out I've been in a place like this, will I get scolded harshly...? I thought about hiding and forgetting this ever happened, but my legs wouldn't move. I kept standing there, stunned, in front of the pile of gold... as the footsteps drew closer and closer...  "...!"The door opened, and I saw who it was. It... wasn't Kinzo.  BGM: Voiceless  "...You..." "...Did you reach this place by your power alone?" "I, indeed..." "..."For some time, Genji stared at Beato in silence, as though he was calculating something. Then, he slowly clapped his hands together. He did it again, over and over. It took quite a long time before I realized that he was applauding me...  "...Beatrice... Me...?" "This is fate. It is fate that brought you to this day." "..."I didn't really understand what Genji was saying. Surely, the shock of seeing the gold still had me paralyzed... "...Come this way." "O, okay..."Genji opened a closet. Inside it was a torso wearing a beautiful dress made of black cloth and golden stitching. When I saw it, I understood immediately. It was the witch's dress. The black dress worn by the Beatrice in the portrait...  "...This is..." "It is... something you once wore."I've never worn a dress like this. However, I understood what Genji meant. This dress was one that Beatrice once wore. And, the one who shows a miracle by solving the epitaph is Beatrice. By reaching this room, I succeeded the position of the real Beatrice, the one in the portrait. Why do I call myself Beatrice? Because the name of the Golden Witch, who rules over Rokkenjima's night, is Beatrice. That's right. I wasn't the real Beatrice. I was a different witch, stealing the name of the witch from Kinzo's delusions. And now, I have become the real Beatrice...  However, this really was... a ceremony to resurrect Beatrice... In the past, I believed that I could create my own fate with my magic. How ironic that fate should guide me to this place... At this moment, I must truly accept and believe in this word called 'fate'...
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Sep 4, 2017 14:08
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...dammit Genji
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Sep 4, 2017 14:17
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Still kinda shocked that you solved the epitaph completely witchcore. Congrats.
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Sep 4, 2017 14:19
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Graylien posted:...dammit Genji
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Sep 4, 2017 14:22
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Agreed on the damnit, Genji. The dress adds an extra layer of creepy that you were trying to avoid, Genji. And also that Witchcore and the thread did splendidly in solving the epitaph, totally blowing us all away. I will forever be able to say that the epitaph can be solved, in English, before Chiru, which I didn't entirely believe before.
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Sep 4, 2017 14:34
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Graylien posted:...dammit Genji
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Sep 4, 2017 14:41
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So I pretty much imagine witchchat woke up one day, took a sip of tea and did the classic spit-take reading the thread to see that it was solved.Graylien posted:...dammit Genji
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Sep 4, 2017 14:46
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D-don't hurt them, Kinzo!! I swear to god! I'm kind of shocked too. I really worked on that for a while: scoping out sweetfish habitat maps, reading through kanji dictionaries, even hitting up Taiwanese friends for their ideas. Some stuff, like Tamsui river, came from other people in the thread. I was just bored and obsessive enough to put it all together. I'm glad my prize is just satisfaction and not having to put on my dead mom's clothes!
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Sep 4, 2017 16:06
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The gold is also a prize but yeah. loving Genji.
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Sep 4, 2017 16:14
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Genji NO. Don't encourage this.
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Sep 4, 2017 16:29
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Graylien posted:...dammit Genji
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Sep 4, 2017 16:37
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What if Battler had solved it first? 
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Sep 4, 2017 16:39
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:What if Battler had solved it first? 
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Sep 4, 2017 16:44
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:What if Battler had solved it first? What if Eva had solved it first? What then, Genji? What the gently caress then? I am feeling very justified in my previous Genji hate. Kumasawa should have sued for full custody. tiistai posted:I don't remember if the tenth twilight of the Steam translation was ever actually solved in the thread, but this is the part where it would be revealed too, whenever Mangagamer finally decides to release Chiru. I got as far as Ten Quadrillion can be expressed as a power of ten but didn't go either farther/didn't post about it because I was already working backwards from the kanji-based solution at that point anyway. ZiegeDame fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Sep 4, 2017 |
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Sep 4, 2017 16:51
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ZiegeDame posted:What if Eva had solved it first? What then, Genji? What the gently caress then? "Beatrice" being Kinzo's daughter didn't stop Genji or Kinzo before, I doubt it'd stop them this time.
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Sep 4, 2017 16:54
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Though I suspect Eva would just roundhouse kick Kinzo's head off
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Sep 4, 2017 16:55
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So Battler would become Beatrice the Crimson. Very stylish!
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Sep 4, 2017 16:58
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What If? posted:The door opened, and I saw who it was. It... wasn't Kinzo.
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Sep 4, 2017 16:59
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"...You..."
"I, indeed..."
"..."
"O, okay..."
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PS. Nice complicated device leading to a hidden passage. I guess there's a reason Dlanor is nowhere to be seen in this episode.
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Sep 4, 2017 16:59
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 But seriously the dress and Genji are hilariously convenient here. Shoot Genji and Kinzo into the sun together.
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Sep 4, 2017 17:02
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ZiegeDame posted:PS. Nice complicated device leading to a hidden passage. I guess there's a reason Dlanor is nowhere to be seen in this episode. I'm sure you're not being serious, but  "My father created the Decalogue to act as a crutch for the power of THINKING. It most certainly wasn't made as a way to arrogantly decide things."A signpost is hardly a hard to understand scientific device, and the hidden passage has been extensively foreshadowed (and outright revealed since EP3) already. An explanation of the specific mechanics of the thing that made some statues turn a little isn't necessary to figure out anything at all.
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Sep 4, 2017 17:20
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