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apropos to nothing posted:to actually be a marxist or a whatever name you wanna use, you were the one goalkeeping certain terms, you can't now pretend that the terms don't matter
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Jan 11, 2021 00:12
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Enjoy posted:you were the one goalkeeping certain terms, you can't now pretend that the terms don't matter im not saying they dont matter lol, im saying whether its marxist or "whatever name you wanna use" as in whatever other thing you believe in. like if you want to call yourself a christian but you dont follow the preachings and teaching of our lord and savior jesus christ, then it makes sense for people to be like nah hes not really one. thats all im describing lol
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Jan 11, 2021 00:17
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basically marx and his ideas have influenced a lot of people and a lot of disciplines such that theres whole fields of study that can be called "marxist" or described that way. all im saying is in the political arena, if you wanna call yourself a marxist then to me that means believing that capitalism needs to be overthrown in a revolution by the working class and that believing in that then you also follow through and act on those beliefs. maybe you disagree and thats fine, you dont have to agree with me, in fact id advice against it but thats what i think and if its gatekeeping then so be it. again not saying hes bad or wrong, i praised varoufakis and recommended him which started this, just sayin i wouldnt call him or his analysis marxist
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Jan 11, 2021 00:21
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apropos to nothing posted:ahh apologies, i am being trolled. carry on then. this is the dead opposite of what I was doing 
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Jan 11, 2021 00:24
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Victory Position posted:this is the dead opposite of what I was doing posted that in reference to this not you Enjoy posted:yanis was a minister in a government, i think he has ideas on how to achieve goals
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Jan 11, 2021 00:25
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apropos to nothing posted:basically marx and his ideas have influenced a lot of people and a lot of disciplines such that theres whole fields of study that can be called "marxist" or described that way. all im saying is in the political arena, if you wanna call yourself a marxist then to me that means believing that capitalism needs to be overthrown in a revolution by the working class and that believing in that then you also follow through and act on those beliefs. maybe you disagree and thats fine, you dont have to agree with me, in fact id advice against it but thats what i think and if its gatekeeping then so be it. again not saying hes bad or wrong, i praised varoufakis and recommended him which started this, just sayin i wouldnt call him or his analysis marxist if you also believe revolution can be a peaceful process of using bourgeois democracy to change the system, then how can you argue varis yanoufakis is anything but a "revolutionary marxist"? i personally think revolution should be reserved as a term for using violence, and i think you can be a reformist marxist. in this way i can better differentiate between different parties and processes
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Jan 11, 2021 00:28
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ahem *taps tweet* https://twitter.com/Rhizzone_Txt/status/633401353327542272
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Jan 11, 2021 00:31
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Enjoy posted:The Communist Manifesto foresaw the predatory and polarised global capitalism of the 21st century. But Marx and Engels also showed us that we have the power to create a better world. By Yanis Varoufakis as apropos to nothing said, this piece describes ends – not means did you even read it lol
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Jan 11, 2021 00:34
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Enjoy posted:The Communist Manifesto foresaw the predatory and polarised global capitalism of the 21st century. But Marx and Engels also showed us that we have the power to create a better world. By Yanis Varoufakis again, yeah hes talking about the manifesto and his economic analysis is certainly influenced and shaped by marx. i dont even know if its possible to be on "the left" politically and not have an economic analysis that is rooted in marxs ideas, even if youre not explicitly a marxist. but again, not in this writing or anything else ive ever seen or heard from varoufakis does he outline a revolutionary political approach to transforming society. marx and engels were explicitly revolutionaries and they advocated for revolution and they criticized the politicians and organizers of their time who would go on to become the first of what we would call social democrats today. so to me, to embrace one half of marxs political ideas and reject the other doesnt make someone a marxist, because i do think those kind of descriptors should have meaning. so maybe saying varoufakis isnt a marxist is gatekeeping but im confident that a member of the greek parliament will not have any gates barred for him if a poster on an english language comedy forum says he likes him but disagrees with him on some things
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Jan 11, 2021 00:37
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exmarx posted:as apropos to nothing said, this piece describes ends – not means i was demonstrating that he is clearly a marxist apropos previously said you can't be a marxist if you aren't a revolutionary, which is why he thinks vanis is not a marxist, but he also said revolution encompasses anything done to move society towards socialism, so it's a useless distinction
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Jan 11, 2021 00:37
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apropos to nothing posted:again, yeah hes talking about the manifesto and his economic analysis is certainly influenced and shaped by marx. i dont even know if its possible to be on "the left" politically and not have an economic analysis that is rooted in marxs ideas, even if youre not explicitly a marxist. but again, not in this writing or anything else ive ever seen or heard from varoufakis does he outline a revolutionary political approach to transforming society. marx and engels were explicitly revolutionaries and they advocated for revolution and they criticized the politicians and organizers of their time who would go on to become the first of what we would call social democrats today. so to me, to embrace one half of marxs political ideas and reject the other doesnt make someone a marxist, because i do think those kind of descriptors should have meaning. so maybe saying varoufakis isnt a marxist is gatekeeping but im confident that a member of the greek parliament will not have any gates barred for him if a poster on an english language comedy forum says he likes him but disagrees with him on some things but marx himself said (in the speech i linked) that different countries need different methods of implementing socialism, including using existing bourgeois democratic systems to achieve power
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Jan 11, 2021 00:38
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varoufakis posted:Adults in the Room, my memoir of the time I served as Greece’s finance minister in 2015, tells the story of how the Greek spring was crushed via a combination of brute force (on the part of Greece’s creditors) and a divided front within my own government. It is as honest and accurate as I could make it. Seen from the perspective of the manifesto, however, the true historical agents were confined to cameo appearances or to the role of quasi-passive victims. “Where is the proletariat in your story?” I can almost hear Marx and Engels screaming at me now. “Should they not be the ones confronting capitalism’s most powerful, with you supporting from the sidelines?”
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Jan 11, 2021 00:39
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apropos to nothing posted:again, yeah hes talking about the manifesto and his economic analysis is certainly influenced and shaped by marx. i dont even know if its possible to be on "the left" politically and not have an economic analysis that is rooted in marxs ideas, even if youre not explicitly a marxist. I honestly don't think it is possible, as the whole idea of leftism is not only indebted to Marx, but also informed by him, so anything less would be paying tribute to whatever the word salad of the day is, whether it be Keynesian economics or MMT or whatever the hell. it still denies the culpability of capital as the ends to all and it pretends that things can improve through, through what these things prescribe, literal casting of oracle bones for good fortune
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Jan 11, 2021 00:40
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Enjoy posted:if you also believe revolution can be a peaceful process of using bourgeois democracy to change the system, then how can you argue varis yanoufakis is anything but a "revolutionary marxist"? i dont believe that "revolution can be a peaceful process of using bourgeois democracy to change the system" i believe that revolution can be a peaceful process when and if the working class organizes itself in such a way that it is both large enough and organized enough to present so strong a force that the capitalist class is incapable of resisting the workers seizing power. i do not believe that we can elect 50%+1 socialists into congress and that will usher in socialism, or that in attempting to do that we can legislate in enough reforms to transform society so slowly that nobody notices. I believe that we can use the fight for reforms to build and strengthen the labor movement so that it can grow strong enough to fight and win the real goal which is a social revolution by the working class. repeating myself but technically i would call what i describe above as violence, but like technically in a "well actually" kind of way that some loser poli sci prof would describe, its not how most people would describe or define violence. that being said social revolutions can be peaceful. the october revolution was a relatively peaceful seizure of power by the soviets, there were a few injuries and deaths but I think it was less than a dozen total people. it ended up leading to a civil war that would kill many more which is unfortunate but the actual overthrow of the government was peaceful. and again as you quoted marx saying, different times and places=different methods and outcomes. i believe and hope that in our time and place we could have such a revolution without the violence which was necessary following the october revolution, but achieving that means the mass organization and mobilization of the working class in numbers too large too resist who are willing to strike, occupy indefinitely the halls of power, and seize control of the production of society, not by winning enough elections.
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Jan 11, 2021 00:52
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this exactly, yanis understands it himself. i respect on some level varoufakis for resigning like i said cause he has principles but they arent revolutionary principles. a revolutionary marxist in such a position would have used their office to call for mass protests, a general strike, an all out fight by the workers to prevent the syriza government from capitulating to the EU.
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Jan 11, 2021 00:55
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apropos to nothing posted:i dont believe that "revolution can be a peaceful process of using bourgeois democracy to change the system" i believe that revolution can be a peaceful process when and if the working class organizes itself in such a way that it is both large enough and organized enough to present so strong a force that the capitalist class is incapable of resisting the workers seizing power. i do not believe that we can elect 50%+1 socialists into congress and that will usher in socialism, or that in attempting to do that we can legislate in enough reforms to transform society so slowly that nobody notices. I believe that we can use the fight for reforms to build and strengthen the labor movement so that it can grow strong enough to fight and win the real goal which is a social revolution by the working class. if you had such a large proportion of society willing to fight for a cause, to the point the security forces just give up and go home, you can win any election you want
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Jan 11, 2021 00:57
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again: the russian revolution took place in a country that had been an absolute monarchy until a few months prior and was still a dictatorship thanks to conscription and military rule why would marx in 1872 differentiate between a peaceful seizure of power in america and the uk, versus a violent seizure in germany, france, austria and russia? what do you think he meant by that if he wasn't referring to exploiting the expansion of suffrage? Enjoy fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Jan 11, 2021 |
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Jan 11, 2021 01:02
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Enjoy posted:if you had such a large proportion of society willing to fight for a cause, to the point the security forces just give up and go home, you can win any election you want maybe but what’s key is that what allows such a victory is the mass organization and mobilization of the class. the other problem is that in the absence of that and just an election victory the capitalist class will use every legal means and even extra legal means to invalidate any election which would actually challenge capitalism and so even in such a situation where a socialist government comes to power via formal bourgeois elections, it still would need the working class being organized and mobilized to defend it to prevent counter revolution. that last part isn’t even a question it’s just historical fact and there are so many examples where the failure to do so, a reformist approach, has led to counter revolution even against social democratic governments. the best example is probably chile in 73 but even in our time the coup against Chavez was not stopped because the votes were in his favor, the capitalist class overthrew a democratically elected social democratic government and what defended it and brought it back to power was not another election but the mass demonstrations protests and strikes which shut the country down and threatened a fight that the reactionary forces knew they could not win.
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Jan 11, 2021 01:11
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i'll basically let anyone who wants call themselves a socialist but be much more finnicky and willing to commit the cardinal sin of Gatekeeping re: "marxist" or even "materialist"
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Jan 11, 2021 01:19
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apropos to nothing posted:maybe but what’s key is that what allows such a victory is the mass organization and mobilization of the class. the other problem is that in the absence of that and just an election victory the capitalist class will use every legal means and even extra legal means to invalidate any election which would actually challenge capitalism and so even in such a situation where a socialist government comes to power via formal bourgeois elections, it still would need the working class being organized and mobilized to defend it to prevent counter revolution. that last part isn’t even a question it’s just historical fact and there are so many examples where the failure to do so, a reformist approach, has led to counter revolution even against social democratic governments. the best example is probably chile in 73 but even in our time the coup against Chavez was not stopped because the votes were in his favor, the capitalist class overthrew a democratically elected social democratic government and what defended it and brought it back to power was not another election but the mass demonstrations protests and strikes which shut the country down and threatened a fight that the reactionary forces knew they could not win. i support socialist governments cementing their power after being elected, it only makes sense
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Jan 11, 2021 01:22
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here's a great discourse on the necessity of revolution in specific https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1934/07/23.htm "Long before 1789 it was clear to many how rotten the royal power, the feudal system was. But a popular insurrection, a clash of classes was not, could not be avoided. Why? Because the classes which must abandon the stage of history are the last to become convinced that their role is ended. It is impossible to convince them of this. They think that the fissures in the decaying edifice of the old order can be repaired and saved. That is why dying classes take to arms and resort to every means to save their existence as a ruling class."
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Jan 11, 2021 01:24
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Enjoy posted:Delaying the war until after France had fallen was insane and cost millions of Soviet lives i say swears online posted:in a private facebook group i was dogpiled for defending the murder of the romanov children and the main person to back up the viewpoint was bryn of beep beep lettuce Enjoy posted:why would you defend the murder of children Enjoy posted:America has already witnessed the largest experiment in abolishing wage labour known to history — the Negro plantation slave. And he was utterly miserable. do people not have memories anymore smh at continuing to engage with this rear end in a top hat
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Jan 11, 2021 01:31
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it is kind of weird to get frothing at the mouth angry when someone says “maybe we shouldn’t be all excited about executing children”
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Jan 11, 2021 01:34
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gradenko_2000 posted:___ actually yes lol i'd entirely forgotten who that was
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Jan 11, 2021 01:36
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i say swears online posted:ahem *taps tweet*
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Jan 11, 2021 01:42
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i say swears online posted:ahem *taps tweet* (in "i love democracy. i love the republic." voice) i love materialism
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Jan 11, 2021 01:43
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i say swears online posted:ahem *taps tweet* this is the one where they got in exactly one fight and wrote pages and pages and pages about how they thought it'd go better, right
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Jan 11, 2021 01:45
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gradenko_2000 posted:___ One of those is not like the others
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Jan 11, 2021 01:46
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Regarde Aduck posted:One of those is not like the others it's the first one, because it wasn't satire
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Jan 11, 2021 01:46
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umm so the first quote was about why the Molotov Ribbentrop pact was bad which like, yes it was don’t make deals with nazis and hard to understand that there’s communists in 2021 who will still argue that yes you should. second is whatever I’m not gonna pissed at peoooe who say it’s bad they were killed while also not gonna shed any tears for them. third was an obvious joke post. like I disagree with enjoy on some of what we’re talking about but it’s pretty lovely to dismiss them and misrepresent a joke just cause you disagree with them
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Jan 11, 2021 01:47
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it’s illegal to make joke posts in the lefty joke forum unless you also think we should help nazis invade other countries
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Jan 11, 2021 01:49
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don't tell me, tell churchill
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Jan 11, 2021 01:56
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look. i know that by posting with all these gbs guys who finally learned in 2016 to stop calling everything pejoratively gay and instead call it chud poo poo, you are unfamiliar with the concept that words mean stuff. but someone is not a Marxist if they do not believe in the politics of it. there are a lot of well educated liberals out there who clearly understand marx's economic thinking without adopting his politics, even if they're otherwise cynical of capital. and you're doing yourself a disservice to confuse this with them being Marxist. it's another example of correct speech, but incorrect thought
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Jan 11, 2021 02:57
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apropos of nothing's take on things here seems about right. can't help but think of marx's disagreement with french socialists including his son-in-law lafargue, where in response to them calling themselves marxists he said “ce qu'il y a de certain c'est que moi, je ne suis pas Marxiste” ("what is certain is that [if they are Marxists], [then] I myself am not a Marxist")
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Jan 11, 2021 04:13
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MAS wasn’t able to avoid armed struggle just by being organized and leading very courageous people, a necessary part of its strategy was shouting from the top of their lungs: ”We are not revolutionaries, your stuff is safe, you know us well from a long time in government! Only if you try to destroy us, we will have to become revolutionaries!” In theory, yes, revolution is just overturning the law and institutions and doesn’t have anything to do with force of arms. In practice, though, both sides’ agreement is needed to keep armed struggle put of the picture, and the bourgeoisie always demand isolation of committed revolutionaries and liquidation of their institutions to keep their side of the deal. Legality is always calculated to cripple concerning movements, and as a rule, illegality is met with armed violence and social isolation.
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Jan 11, 2021 05:51
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apropos to nothing posted:it’s illegal to make joke posts in the lefty joke forum unless you also think we should help nazis invade other countries
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Jan 11, 2021 10:27
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Yeah posting the rhizzone tweet pretty much cemented his status as dumbfuck
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Jan 11, 2021 21:10
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What are you even doing in this thread
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Jan 11, 2021 21:32
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Enjoy posted:but marx himself said (in the speech i linked) that different countries need different methods of implementing socialism, including using existing bourgeois democratic systems to achieve power the 18th brumaire of louis bonaparte was explicitly written because marx became disillusioned with bourgeois elections after the fact
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Jan 11, 2021 23:55
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