Patrick Rothfuss: Technical Difficulties

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jivjov: Sep 13, 2007; But how does it taste? Yummy!; Dinosaur Gum

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

"I have a read a book ten times, yet I am unable to say anything substantial about it."

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Reading something mechanically and passively for 10 times isn't enjoying something. In fact, it's only reading in a technical sense. "The right way of reading" indeed shows that the books are bad, because there is and has always been only one way of reading.

What the hell does this even mean? I experienced enjoyment while reading the Kingkiller books. You do not exist in my headspace, you literally cannot tell me what I did and did not enjoy.

And yes, there is only one way of reading. In the English language, reading progresses from left to right, letters are organized into words, words into sentences, sentences into paragraphs and so on. Said arrangements of letters communicate meaning to the brain.

If you don't like the Kingkiller books, that's perfectly fine. Nobody is forcing you to, nobody is expecting you to. But it is the highest arrogance to sit there and tell me "no; you did not enjoy those books, you are lying to us"

So you can gently caress right the hell off with your "I am the sole arbiter of good and bad, and you're too bad at reading to know better" routine.

# ? Feb 28, 2016 13:27

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# ? May 24, 2024 20:07

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Aug 18, 2016

# ? Feb 28, 2016 13:45

jivjov: Sep 13, 2007; But how does it taste? Yummy!; Dinosaur Gum

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

I say it because you claim to enjoy the series, but have not expressed anything that resembles enjoyment or pleasure in this thread. I know because I clicked the question mark under your avatar.

I enjoy the fictional history Rothfuss created; he commits fully to the concept of a living world; mundane things like currency conversions, folktales, or the difference of customs from one kingdom to the next are brought up. This makes the world feel less sterile and artificial than some fantasy I've read. I enjoy learning about various corners of the world.

The magic "systems" are great too. Sympathy occupies a fun niche between magic and science; giving Kvothe (and others) opportunities to cleverly employ their talents without pulling unknown abilities out of thin air.

Rothfuss' prose flows effortlessly; I quite frequently would just lose hours to reading with no awareness of passage of time due to just how well the writing flows. His use of metaphor is also highly enjoyable, such as the opening and closing "silence of three parts" bits. His writing is incredibly evocative and intuitive.

There. Have I managed to justify myself to you yet? Is the great and powerful GodKing of Enjoyment, forums poster BravestOfTheLamps willing to admit that I was not lying when I professed to enjoy a book I have read? Or will you continue to be a ruthless dictator; hellbent on telling me what my feelings and emotions are?

# ? Feb 28, 2016 13:55

Avshalom: Feb 14, 2012; by Lowtax

Hilloo. I'm Pinchwick Lockfuss. This is my novel, Facets Of A Shart. It's about me, but my testicles are bigger than a Jeep Cherokee and my sword is as lethal as the west wind through a campfire, red as an old whore's lipstick, shiny as a virgin's teeth.

# ? Feb 28, 2016 14:11

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

jivjov posted:

I enjoy the fictional history Rothfuss created; he commits fully to the concept of a living world; mundane things like currency conversions, folktales, or the difference of customs from one kingdom to the next are brought up. This makes the world feel less sterile and artificial than some fantasy I've read. I enjoy learning about various corners of the world.

The magic "systems" are great too. Sympathy occupies a fun niche between magic and science; giving Kvothe (and others) opportunities to cleverly employ their talents without pulling unknown abilities out of thin air.

Rothfuss' prose flows effortlessly; I quite frequently would just lose hours to reading with no awareness of passage of time due to just how well the writing flows. His use of metaphor is also highly enjoyable, such as the opening and closing "silence of three parts" bits. His writing is incredibly evocative and intuitive.

There. Have I managed to justify myself to you yet? Is the great and powerful GodKing of Enjoyment, forums poster BravestOfTheLamps willing to admit that I was not lying when I professed to enjoy a book I have read? Or will you continue to be a ruthless dictator; hellbent on telling me what my feelings and emotions are?

Most what you've described is paraphernalia. What's enjoyable about Kingkiller is reading about a man narrating his life and exploits. Currency conversion is only interesting in how it furthers that.

The rest (like the prose) can be chalked up to simple bad taste.

# ? Feb 28, 2016 14:14

jivjov: Sep 13, 2007; But how does it taste? Yummy!; Dinosaur Gum

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

Most what you've described is paraphernalia. What's enjoyable about Kingkiller is reading about a man narrating his life and exploits. Currency conversion is only interesting in how it furthers that.

While I enjoy the story-within-a-story aspects as well; you cannot tell me that I did not actually enjoy the "paraphernalia" as you call it. Again, you do not exist in my head; you cannot tell me what I enjoyed.

You seem to be having some difficulty understanding the concept that the things you enjoy and the things I enjoy are not the same. Your opinions do not apply universally. You are not, contrary to my sarcastic quips, the sole arbiter and GodKing of what is enjoyable.

So; I again say to gently caress right off with your elitist, smug, condescending horseshit.

# ? Feb 28, 2016 14:18

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

jivjov posted:

Again, you do not exist in my head; you cannot tell me what I enjoyed.

On the contrary my friend, you are making your thoughts and emotions clear through this very discussion. According to you, the Kingkiller series are containers for objects you appreciate. You enjoy the prose by how you don't notice it, and it distracts you from the real world. "Silence of three parts" is no metaphor; how may you enjoy Rothfuss's metaphors if you do not know what they are? Again, you cannot express the unitary pleasure that comes from reading.

# ? Feb 28, 2016 14:26

jivjov: Sep 13, 2007; But how does it taste? Yummy!; Dinosaur Gum

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

Again, you cannot express the unitary pleasure that comes from reading.

Are you seriously this loving dense? YOU. CANNOT. TELL. ME. WHAT. I. ENJOY.

Is that in small enough words and presented clearly enough for you to understand? You're the self-proclaimed goddamn expert of reading things so properly. You are not me. You enjoy different things than I do.

If you think Rothfuss' writings are worth nothing but to wipe your rear end with, THAT'S FINE!!! But you are a deluded if you think your opinion somehow dictates my enjoyment.

You are a condescending, arrogant, pompous, self-important rear end.

# ? Feb 28, 2016 14:38

Oxxidation: Jul 22, 2007

I know that BotL is having fun with his scholar-among-the-rabble routine, but this is getting tragic.

jivjov, here's a request, because I'm honestly curious - I'd like you to quote your favorite passage from Rothfuss' stuff. And by passage I mean section of prose, not a one-liner, image, or bewilderingly obtuse metaphor. I can pretty much recall my favorite section of prose chapter and verse (it's the razing of Pachigam from Shalimar the Clown), but I'm probably in the minority.

I haven't been particularly impressed with anything I've seen of Rothfuss' prose so far and it'd be interesting to see what one of his actual fans holds up at his high point.

# ? Feb 28, 2016 14:53

jivjov: Sep 13, 2007; But how does it taste? Yummy!; Dinosaur Gum

Oxxidation posted:

jivjov, here's a request, because I'm honestly curious - I'd like you to quote your favorite passage from Rothfuss' stuff. And by passage I mean section of prose, not a one-liner, image, or bewilderingly obtuse metaphor. I can pretty much recall my favorite section of prose chapter and verse (it's the razing of Pachigam from Shalimar the Clown), but I'm probably in the minority.

I'll see what I can come up with for you. A lot of what I enjoy about Rothfuss' writing comes from whole chapters coming together, but I'll try to pick out some of my particular favorite segments.

# ? Feb 28, 2016 14:56

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

When it comes to genre fiction I remember enjoying this snippet from Joe Abercrombie's Red Country:

quote:

Sworbreck had come to see the face of heroism and instead he had seen evil. Seen it, spoken with it, been pressed up against it. Evil turned out not to be a grand thing. Not sneering Emperors with world-conquering designs. Not cackling demons plotting in the darkness beyond the world. It was small men with their small acts and their small reasons. It was selfishness and carelessness and waste. It was bad luck, incompetence and stupidity. It was violence divorced from conscience or consequence. It was high ideals, even, and low methods.

jivjov posted:

Are you seriously this loving dense? YOU. CANNOT. TELL. ME. WHAT. I. ENJOY.

I have no power over you save for what you have now granted to me.

jivjov posted:

Is that in small enough words and presented clearly enough for you to understand? You're the self-proclaimed goddamn expert of reading things so properly. You are not me. You enjoy different things than I do.

Correct, I enjoy different things, like reading Kingkiller.

# ? Feb 28, 2016 16:25

Oxxidation: Jul 22, 2007

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

When it comes to genre fiction I remember enjoying this snippet from Joe Abercrombie's Red Country:

I dunno, the sentiment's pedestrian and while I like the use of repetition I've seen it done better elsewhere. Though my genre-fiction...genre...of choice is horror, not fantasy/sci-fi, so our standards probably differ.

# ? Feb 28, 2016 16:30

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

Oxxidation posted:

I dunno, the sentiment's pedestrian and while I like the use of repetition I've seen it done better elsewhere. Though my genre-fiction...genre...of choice is horror, not fantasy/sci-fi, so our standards probably differ.

It's true that I'm more forgiving when I find resonance in the ideas. Here's something more refined from one of the greatest works of fantasy ever written, John Crowley's Little, Big:

quote:

Striving like the Meadow Mouse to disbelieve in Winter, Smoky gorged himself on the summer sky, lying late into the night on the ground staring upward, though the month had an R in it and Cloud thought it bad for nerve, bone, and tissue. Odd that the changeful constellations, so mindful of the seasons, should be what he chose of summer to memorize, but the turning of the sky was so slow, and seemed so impossible, that it comforted him. Yet he needed only to look at his watch to see that they fled away south even as the geese did.

On the night Orion rose and Scorpio set, a night as warm almost as August for reasons of the weather�s own but in fact by that sign the last night of summer, he and Sophie and Daily Alice lay out in a sheep-shorn meadow on their backs, their heads close together like three eggs in a nest, as pale too as that in the night light. They had their heads together so that when one pointed out a star, the arm he pointed with would be more or less in the other�s line of sight; otherwise, they would be all night saying That one, there, where I�m pointing, unable to correct for billions of miles of parallax. Smoky had the star-book open on his lap, and consulted it with a flashlight whose light was masked with red cellophane taken from a Dutch cheese so its bightness wouldn�t blind him.

[...]

The menagerie of heaven, racing as from a zoo breakout through the lives of the men and women, gods and heroes; the band of the Zodiac (that night all their birth-signs were invisible, bearing the sun around the south); the impossible dust of the Milky Way rainbow-wise overarching them; Orion lifting one racing foot over the horizon, following his dog Sirius. They discovered the moment�s rising sign. Jupiter burned unwinking in the west. The whole spangled beach-umbrella, fringed with the Tropics, revolved on its bent staff around the North Star, too slowly to be seen, yet steadily.

Smoky, out of his childhood reading, related the interlocking tales told above them. The pictures were so formless and incomplete, and the tales, some at least, so trivial that it seemed to Smoky that it must all be true: Hercules looked so little like himself that the only way anyone could have found him was if he�d got the news about Hercules being up there, and was told where to look. As one tree traces its family back to Daphne but another has to be mere commoner; as only the odd flower, mountain, fact gets to have divine ancestry, so Cassiopeia of all people is brilliantly asterized, or her chair rather, as though by accident; and somebody else�s crown, and another�s lyre: the attic of the gods.

The interplay of celestial and mundane is terrific. Like how the awkwardness of pointing out a star is associated with "the billions of mile of parallax," and becomes a symbol of the vast chasm between all people. The vast sky of stars is perfect to illustrate the confusion of meaning, where the trivial and the divine are intertwined.

BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Feb 28, 2016

# ? Feb 28, 2016 17:16

Oxxidation: Jul 22, 2007

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

It's true that I'm more forgiving when I find resonance in the ideas. Here's something more refined from one of the greatest works of fantasy ever written, John Crowley's Little, Big:

The interplay of celestial and mundane is terrific. Like how the awkwardness of pointing out a star is associated with "the billions of mile of parallax," and becomes a symbol of the vast chasm between all people. The vast sky of stars is perfect to illustrate the confusion of meaning, where the trivial and the divine are intertwined.

Top-notch celestial imagery, I might steal some of it.

Since we're sharing I might as well trot out my own, though I'll have to spoil it since it's the climactic moment of Shalimar the Clown - when the town's main setting, the Kashmiri village of Pachigam, is finally set upon by the Indian military. Notably, the second paragraph is the same one used to introduce the village in the beginning of the novel:

quote:

What was that cry? Was it a man, a woman, an angel or a god who keened, thus, who howled just so? Could any human voice make such a desolate noise?

There was the earth and there were the planets. The earth was not a planet. The planets were the grabbers. They were called this because they could seize hold of the earth and bend its destiny to their will. The earth was never of their kind. The earth was the subject. The earth was the grabbee.

Pachigam was the earth, the grabbee, helpless, and powerful uncaring planets stooped low, extended their celestial and merciless tentacles and grabbed.

Who lit that fire? Who burned that orchard? Who shot those brothers who laughed their whole lives long? Who killed the sarpanch? Who broke his hands? Who broke his arms? Who broke his ancient neck? Who shackled those men? Who made those men disappear? Who shot those boys? Who shot those girls? Who smashed that house? Who smashed that house? Who smashed that house? Who killed that youth? Who clubbed that grandmother? Who knifed that aunt? Who broke that old man's nose? Who broke that young girl's heart? Who killed the lover? Who shot his fiancee? Who burned the costumes? Who broke the swords? Who burned the library? Who burned the saffron field? Who burned the beehives? Who poisoned the paddies? Who killed the children? Who whipped the parents? Who raped that lazy-eyed woman? Who raped that gray-haired lazy-eyed woman as she screamed about snake vengeance? Who raped that woman again? Who raped that woman again? Who raped that woman again? Who raped that dead woman? Who raped that dead woman again?

The village of Pachigam still exists on the official maps of Kashmir, due south of Srinigar and west of Shirmal near the Anantnag road. In such public records as are still available for inspection its population is given as three hundred and fifty, and in a few guides for the benefit of visitors there are passing references to the bhand pather, a dying folk art, and to the dwindling number of dedicated troupes that seek to preserve it. This official existence, this paper self is its only memorial, for where Pachigam stood by the blithe Muskadoon, where its little street ran from the pandit's house to the sarpanch's, where Abdullah roared and Boonyi danced and Shivshankar sang and Shalimar the Clown walked the tightrope as if treading upon air, nothing resembling a human habitation remains. What happened that day in Pachigam need not be set down here in full detail, because brutality is brutality and excess is excess and that's all there is to it. There are things that must be looked at indirectly because they would blind you if you looked them in the face, like the fire of the sun. So, to repeat: there was no Pachigam anymore. Pachigam was destroyed. Imagine it for yourself.

Second attempt: the village of Pachigam still existed on maps of Kashmir, but that day it ceased to exist anywhere else, except in memory.

Third and final attempt: the beautiful village of Pachigam still exists.

The command of pacing and tone here is loving incredible - the first paragraph consists of dramatic, almost bombastic rhetoric, before pulling back the viewer's perspective to a cosmic, impassive scale in preparation for the passage's centerpiece, that flood of rhetorical questions and clipped diction used to dull the fullness of the atrocities, followed by the dry census data that serves to both further detach the reader and illustrate the cruelty and injustice of the greater world's reaction to the raze. Then, just after that, it drops back down into personal recollections of the village's day-to-day occurrences and ends on wistful, almost defiant nostalgia, using the record and result of the atrocity as evidence of the transience and impotence of the same forces who committed the atrocity to begin with. It salvages optimism from deep tragedy without coming across as farcical or Panglossian, and what's most impressive to me is that it does all this with what's barely an eighth-grade vocabulary.

Rothfuss seems like he strains for importance with high diction and antiquated (to the point of being stilted) sentence structure, but some of the best writing in English comes about when you do a lot with a little.

Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Feb 28, 2016

# ? Feb 28, 2016 17:47

anilEhilated: Feb 17, 2014; But I say fuck the rain.; Grimey Drawer

Hell, let's bring in the elephant in the room and look at the way Wolfe introduces Severian, someone I can only presume Kvothe wishes he was.

Shadow of the Torturer posted:

It is possible I already had some presentiment of my future. The locked and rusted gate that stood before us, with wisps of river fog threading its spikes like the mountain paths, remains in my mind now as the symbol of my exile. That is why I have begun this account of it with the aftermath of our swim, in which I, the torturer's apprentice Severian, had so nearly drowned.

There's your minimal setup: in a couple of sentences, you're told that he got exiled (presumably commiting a crime in order to achieve that) he was through mountains (although he's near a foggy river), that he almost died and that experience proved important in his story. On second read, you realize he's setting the symbol up to justify himself in a messianic role: fate, trials, rebirth.
This is literally the first paragraph of his account and it already tells you more about the character than Kvothe's bloated list of what he's achieved (not helped by the fact by that point we have no loving idea what half those things mean - ie what the hell is a Felurian).
We get a sense of the tale: this is its starting point for a reason, that reason was chosen by the narrator and so the events to follow have special significance for him so we're prompted to look for it. Reader is engaged from the first paragraph as well as warned that what he's reading is somewhat edited, setting Severian up as the unreliable narrator he is. In one short paragraph.

# ? Feb 28, 2016 19:20

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

You've mostly defended Rothfuss's work ethic, which I have no real problem is, and you've defended plot points and metaphors. But nowhere can I see you actually talk about what makes the series good or enjoyable.

With the understanding that Wise Man's Fear retroactively destroyed some of these items, a nonexhaustive list of bits in the Name of The Wind that Ulmont liked just from chapter one:

1) I like the way Kvothe is shown (rather than told) to know a lot more than the villagers about what is going on (a tinker's debt is paid once / twice / thrice, the scraels can't have made it this far west yet). Who is Kvothe and why is he here in what is clearly Bumfuckistan?

2) The back and forth between the various villagers. Just as one example:

quote:

�Bastard tried to charge me ten pennies for a half-pound of salt,� Cob said reflexively, repeating the complaint for perhaps the hundredth time.
�Wish I�d bought some,� Jake mumbled.
Graham nodded a silent agreement.

3) And the same style of banter between Kvothe and Bast:

quote:

�I like your first idea better, Reshi,� Bast said uncomfortably. �Three or four scrael would go through this town like�like��
�Like a hot knife through butter?�
�More like several hot knives through several dozen farmers,� Bast said dryly. �These people can�t defend themselves. I bet there aren�t six swords in this whole town. Not that swords would do much good against the scrael.

And, while it's from the end of chapter 7, I love Kvothe's bombastic boasting beginning his bio:

quote:

I have stolen princesses back from sleeping barrow kings. I burned down the town of Trebon. I have spent the night with Felurian and left with both my sanity and my life. I was expelled from the University at a younger age than most people are allowed in. I tread paths by moonlight that others fear to speak of during day. I have talked to Gods, loved women, and written songs that make the minstrels weep.
You may have heard of me.

http://www.tor.com/2011/04/21/rothfuss-reread-the-name-of-the-wind-part-1-the-cut-flower-sound/

ulmont fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Mar 1, 2016

# ? Feb 28, 2016 20:39

Number Ten Cocks: Feb 25, 2016; by zen death robot

jivjov posted:

People like what they like and there's nothing wrong with that.

I still kind of like Rothfuss, and really enjoyed the first book, but you generally shouldn't try to defend yourself with something that sounds like a NAMBLA slogan.

I haven't read his novella thing, is it any good or at least provide a sense that he's recovering from excesses of WMF? To be honest I liked WMF quite a lot the first time and didn't realize how ridiculous the Felurian and sex ninja parts were until the second time.

# ? Feb 28, 2016 22:25

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Number Ten Cocks posted:

I haven't read his novella thing, is it any good or at least provide a sense that he's recovering from excesses of WMF?

Let me give you the Author's Foreword and the first few paragraphs of a random page, and you decide:

Author's Foreword posted:

You might not want to buy this book.

I know, that�s not the sort of thing an author is supposed to say. The marketing people aren�t going to like this. My editor is going to have a fit. But I�d rather be honest with you right out of the gate.

First, if you haven�t read my other books, you don�t want to start here.

My first two books are The Name of the Wind and The Wise Man�s Fear. If you�re curious to try my writing, start there. They�re the best introduction to my world. This book deals with Auri, one of the characters from that series. Without the context of those books, you�re probably going to feel pretty lost.

Second, even if you have read my other books, I think it�s only fair to warn you that this is a bit of a strange story. I don�t go in for spoilers, but suffice to say that this one is . . . different. It doesn�t do a lot of the things a classic story is supposed to do. And if you�re looking for a continuation of Kvothe�s storyline, you�re not going to find it here.

On the other hand, if you�d like to learn more about Auri, this story has a lot to offer. If you love words and mysteries and secrets. If you�re curious about the Underthing and alchemy. If you want to know more about the hidden turnings of my world. . . .

Well, then this book might be for you.

WHEN AURI WOKE on the fourth day, things had changed.

She could tell before she stretched awake. Before she cracked her eyes into the seamless dark. Foxen was frightened and full of mountains. So today was a tapering day. A burning day.

She didn�t blame him. She knew what it could be like. Some days simply lay on you like stones. Some were fickle as cats, sliding away when you needed comfort, then coming back later when you didn�t want them, jostling at you, stealing your breath.

No. She didn�t blame Foxen. But for half a minute she wished it was a different sort of day, even though she knew that nothing good could come from wanting at the world. Even though she knew it was a wicked thing to do.

# ? Feb 28, 2016 22:37

Oxxidation: Jul 22, 2007

Some of those analogies are actually quite nice, but 150 pages of them might get a little wearying.

# ? Feb 28, 2016 23:22

Lottery of Babylon: Apr 25, 2012; STRAIGHT TROPIN'

Number Ten Cocks posted:

I haven't read his novella thing, is it any good or at least provide a sense that he's recovering from excesses of WMF?

The Twelve was one of the rare changing places of the Underthing. It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to be itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true.

# ? Feb 29, 2016 00:32

Xy Hapu: Mar 7, 2004

Author's Forward posted:

You might not want to buy this book.

I know, that�s not the sort of thing an author is supposed to say. The marketing people aren�t going to like this. My editor is going to have a fit. But I�d rather be honest with you right out of the gate.

First, if you haven�t read my other books, you don�t want to start here.

My first two books are The Name of the Wind and The Wise Man�s Fear. If you�re curious to try my writing, start there. They�re the best introduction to my world. This book deals with Auri, one of the characters from that series. Without the context of those books, you�re probably going to feel pretty lost.

Second, even if you have read my other books, I think it�s only fair to warn you that this is a bit of a strange story. I don�t go in for spoilers, but suffice to say that this one is . . . different. It doesn�t do a lot of the things a classic story is supposed to do. And if you�re looking for a continuation of Kvothe�s storyline, you�re not going to find it here.

On the other hand, if you�d like to learn more about Auri, this story has a lot to offer. If you love words and mysteries and secrets. If you�re curious about the Underthing and alchemy. If you want to know more about the hidden turnings of my world. . . .

Well, then this book might be for you.

I.E., you are special and different if you buy and like this book :barf:

That's what I didn't like about Name of the Wind, what the author wanted you to think about Kvothe was so transparent that the coyness and pretenses of subtlety he wraps around it was eye-rolling, and a gigantic waste of time from a characterization point of view when it's stretched out the length of a whole series. That's probably a con and a pro; it sucks if you went into it to see how a character evolves since you see essentially all there is to the character within the first few hundred pages, and the tension we should feel in wondering how young Kvothe turned into old Kvothe disappears because we're shown from the start a version of that. But it's great for people who just want to read about the exploits of a tragic badass, since you're told what you're getting from the beginning and it consistently delivers from then on. Which I feel is what a lot of reviewers skirt around when saying what they like about the book because it makes them sound shallow and the book sound pulpy, and the author provides enough veneer of high-browness that people can put up a reasonable front.

# ? Feb 29, 2016 02:26

Trammel: Dec 31, 2007; .

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

When it comes to genre fiction I remember enjoying this snippet from Joe Abercrombie's Red Country:

For genre fiction, Rothfuss owes a lot to Tolkien, who took similarly large amounts of time building worlds, whiling his time away intertwining linguistic and historical roots to his stories, while drafting multiple versions, editing and changing his invented histories many times over decades. Indeed, Rothfuss has written about how much he's been influenced by Tolkien. So from Tolkien's Silmarillion:

Tolkien, snippet from Lay of Luthien posted:

He chanted a song of wizardry,
Of piercing, opening, of treachery,
Revealing, uncovering, betraying.
Then sudden Felagund there swaying
Sang in answer a song of staying,
Resisting, battling against power,
Of secrets kept, strength like a tower,
And trust unbroken, freedom, escape;
Of changing and of shifting shape
Of snares eluded, broken traps,
The prison opening, the chain that snaps.
-- Backwards and forwards swayed their song.
Reeling and foundering, as ever more strong
The chanting swelled, Felagund fought,
And all the magic and might he brought
Of Elvenesse into his words.
Softly in the gloom they heard the birds
Singing afar in Nargothrond,
The sighing of the Sea beyond,
Beyond the western world, on sand,
On sand of pearls in Elvenland.
-- Then the gloom gathered; darkness growing
In Valinor, the red blood flowing
Beside the Sea, where the Noldor slew
The Foamriders, and stealing drew
Their white ships with their white sails
From lamplit havens. The wind wails,
The wolf howls. The ravens flee.
The ice mutters in the mouths of the Sea.
The captives sad in Angband mourn.
Thunder rumbles, the fires burn �-
-- And Finrod fell before the throne.

Here the poem has rhythm, it draws the reader into hearing the words. When there are breaks ("revealing, uncovering, betraying. Then sudden Felagund"), the change in rhythm matches the change in subject, as it switches from one contestant to the other. The cadence of the poem, and the way the words are spoken match their subject matter ("The sighing of the Sea beyond", The wind wails, The wolf howls. The ravens flee. The ice mutters").

Tolkien has an advantage in that he's writing a poem about a fully imagined and described history, so the betrayals of Finrod's kin are fresh in the mind of the reader. The ongoing theme of original sin, and it's consequences continue, as in the poem, they cause Finrod to falter and fail. But these allusions are not a simple "world-building" by using an a character referring to a name that the reader hasn't yet heard, as an technique to give a feeling of reality or depth.

Also, the obvious parallels with Rothfuss' Kvothe, as a singer/magician are stark. Where in Rothfuss' world we have Kvothe, the author, and the minor characters constantly providing ever effusive praise of his skills as a singer & poet, telling the reader what a young genius he is, unfortunately the one time we read Kvothe's poetry, it's stilted and hard.

# ? Feb 29, 2016 02:27

Phobeste: Apr 9, 2006; never, like, count out Touchdown Tom, man

Trammel posted:

For genre fiction, Rothfuss owes a lot to Tolkien, who took similarly large amounts of time building worlds, whiling his time away intertwining linguistic and historical roots to his stories, while drafting multiple versions, editing and changing his invented histories many times over decades. Indeed, Rothfuss has written about how much he's been influenced by Tolkien. So from Tolkien's Silmarillion:

Here the poem has rhythm, it draws the reader into hearing the words. When there are breaks ("revealing, uncovering, betraying. Then sudden Felagund"), the change in rhythm matches the change in subject, as it switches from one contestant to the other. The cadence of the poem, and the way the words are spoken match their subject matter ("The sighing of the Sea beyond", The wind wails, The wolf howls. The ravens flee. The ice mutters").

Tolkien has an advantage in that he's writing a poem about a fully imagined and described history, so the betrayals of Finrod's kin are fresh in the mind of the reader. The ongoing theme of original sin, and it's consequences continue, as in the poem, they cause Finrod to falter and fail. But these allusions are not a simple "world-building" by using an a character referring to a name that the reader hasn't yet heard, as an technique to give a feeling of reality or depth.

Also, the obvious parallels with Rothfuss' Kvothe, as a singer/magician are stark. Where in Rothfuss' world we have Kvothe, the author, and the minor characters constantly providing ever effusive praise of his skills as a singer & poet, telling the reader what a young genius he is, unfortunately the one time we read Kvothe's poetry, it's stilted and hard.

It seems like a lot of fantasy authors really want there to be poetry or legends or songs in their world that are just as accepted as in ours and you can usually be ok with assuming that, but sometimes those authors try to actually write down the text of that poem or whatever and hoo boy. Turns out being a poet is a very distinct skill from writing fantasy novels. This includes Tolkien.

Also, if what you're looking for is a retrospective on a magical prodigy who does things like deceive entire armies at the age of twelve, rescue ancient rings and princesses from the tombs of dark gods, and eventually fights death itself - and one that actually has beautiful prose - you should probably just read [u]The Wizard of Earthsea[/i] by Ursula K. Leguin. Not that most of you guys probably need me to tell you that.

Phobeste fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Feb 29, 2016

# ? Feb 29, 2016 03:50

Lottery of Babylon: Apr 25, 2012; STRAIGHT TROPIN'

Trammel posted:

For genre fiction, Rothfuss owes a lot to Tolkien, who took similarly large amounts of time building worlds, whiling his time away intertwining linguistic and historical roots to his stories, while drafting multiple versions, editing and changing his invented histories many times over decades. Indeed, Rothfuss has written about how much he's been influenced by Tolkien. So from Tolkien's Silmarillion:

Here the poem has rhythm, it draws the reader into hearing the words. When there are breaks ("revealing, uncovering, betraying. Then sudden Felagund"), the change in rhythm matches the change in subject, as it switches from one contestant to the other. The cadence of the poem, and the way the words are spoken match their subject matter ("The sighing of the Sea beyond", The wind wails, The wolf howls. The ravens flee. The ice mutters").

Tolkien has an advantage in that he's writing a poem about a fully imagined and described history, so the betrayals of Finrod's kin are fresh in the mind of the reader. The ongoing theme of original sin, and it's consequences continue, as in the poem, they cause Finrod to falter and fail. But these allusions are not a simple "world-building" by using an a character referring to a name that the reader hasn't yet heard, as an technique to give a feeling of reality or depth.

Also, the obvious parallels with Rothfuss' Kvothe, as a singer/magician are stark. Where in Rothfuss' world we have Kvothe, the author, and the minor characters constantly providing ever effusive praise of his skills as a singer & poet, telling the reader what a young genius he is, unfortunately the one time we read Kvothe's poetry, it's stilted and hard.

Over the course of the Name of the Wind there are a half-dozen accounts of the war that took place in the distant past: Kvothe's parents' masterpiece, the Tehlin myth, Skarpi's story, Denna's song, Hespe's fairy tale, Felurian's comments, the Ademre secret words. Almost all of these we see in full so they can be properly compared and contrasted -- both as bait for theorycrafting nerds and for the series's attempted theme of showing how stories can evolve and change. However, two of these we don't get to see: the two that are written in verse. For Kvothe's parents' version, there's a good in-story reason for that, but in Denna's case Kvothe hears the whole thing and it sticks out like a sore thumb that we do not.

The charitable interpretation is that Rothfuss is aware he's bad at poetry and is avoiding playing to his weakness to make his series as good as it can be. The less charitable interpretation is that Rothfuss just hates writing poetry and will grasp any excuse to not do it, even if the resulting omissions weaken the story.

# ? Feb 29, 2016 04:54

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Oh, what the hell. A nonexhaustive list of bits Ulmont liked from chapter 2:

1) The lampshaded presence in a story, together with the switch from the high register (poetic description of colors, personification of the old oaks) to the low armed robbery.

quote:

IT WAS ONE OF those perfect autumn days so common in stories and so rare in the real world. The weather was warm and dry, ideal for ripening a field of wheat or corn. On both sides of the road the trees were changing color. Tall poplars had gone a buttery yellow while the shrubby sumac encroaching on the road was tinged a violent red. Only the old oaks seemed reluctant to give up the summer, and their leaves remained an even mingling of gold and green. Everything said, you couldn�t hope for a nicer day to have a half dozen ex-soldiers with hunting bows relieve you of everything you owned.

2) Chronicler's basically prosaic preparations for robbery as something like the weather (multiple bundles of coin, keeping the right amount of coins in the purse, etc.).

3) The joke where Chronicler is surprised by a dark shape - following the introduction of the black scrael of Chapter 1 - that turns out to be a crow. Both a callback and a bit of foreshadowing as it turns out.

http://www.tor.com/2011/04/21/rothfuss-reread-the-name-of-the-wind-part-1-the-cut-flower-sound/

ulmont fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Mar 1, 2016

# ? Feb 29, 2016 05:10

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

The tension is defused as Rothfuss describes vague restlessness rather than the aftermath of horror.

I think this is intentional. The arrival of the scael is horrific for the villagers, but for Kvothe, in a very real way, it's just a bit ahead of schedule.

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

Since the scene starts in the middle of the robbery, there�s no real action to exploit, but there�s also no willingness to emphasize the absurdity of the situation as someone like, say, Jack Vance would do.

I think you're underselling Rothfuss or overselling Vance here. The bits about Chronicler asking for some money back and then taking out his next set of being-robbed money are pretty absurd.

# ? Feb 29, 2016 05:20

SatansBestBuddy: Sep 26, 2010; by FactsAreUseless

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

Even in this thread, the goons who like the book seem awfully reticent to actually say why they enjoy the books.

I quite enjoy these books because they remind me of my Japanese Manga.

Throughly enjoying your effort posts, Bravest, keep up the good work.

Phobeste posted:

Also, if what you're looking for is a retrospective on a magical prodigy who does things like deceive entire armies at the age of twelve, rescue ancient rings and princesses from the tombs of dark gods, and eventually fights death itself - and one that actually has beautiful prose - you should probably just read The Wizard of Earthsea by Ursula K. Leguin. Not that most of you guys probably need me to tell you that.

I'm actually in the middle of reading those books myself, and yeah, the actual writing and use of words to create images and discuss ideas is worlds better than what Rothfuss has put out. I've already finished the main series and am working on the side stories right now, which do a great job of fleshing out the world and make me wish I had read them first. Though I felt that the fourth book was a bit of a wash, wasn't it?

# ? Feb 29, 2016 05:31

Trammel: Dec 31, 2007; .

ulmont posted:

I think this is intentional. The arrival of the scael is horrific for the villagers, but for Kvothe, in a very real way, it's just a bit ahead of schedule.

Talking of schedule, the books are 2/3rd complete, and readers are still as ignorant as they were in the beginning what scael are, or why they're coming.

WMF just fluffed around too much, wasting Day 2, leaving too much plot, and I think that's what's sinking Doors of Stone, causing Rothfuss' obvious procrastination.

# ? Feb 29, 2016 05:37

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

ulmont posted:

Oh, what the hell. A nonexhaustive list of bits Ulmont liked from chapter 2:

This is again the problem of describing a book as a container for things you like instead of appreciating reading the book as whole. Anyone can gather up bits up from the book that are effective - but this is missing the forest for the trees.

BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Feb 29, 2016

# ? Feb 29, 2016 06:28

The Chad Jihad: Feb 24, 2007

I enjoy your posts but I'm unsure what example could satisfy your criteria at this point

# ? Feb 29, 2016 07:03

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

RentACop posted:

I enjoy your posts but I'm unsure what example could satisfy your criteria at this point

Showing why the main body of The Name of the Wind or Wise Man's Fear is enjoyable, and preferably also why that can't be chalked up to bad taste. For an example of not just picking apart a list of things, I'm bringing up passages and sequences in preparation for a final thesis.

BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 09:01 on Feb 29, 2016

# ? Feb 29, 2016 07:12

Nakar: Sep 2, 2002; Ultima Ratio Regum

I think it's more a confusion of terms that people are taking issue with. "Enjoyable" to me implies a primarily emotional response to something. You can enjoy things that are definitely not good, because you may be enjoying certain aspects of the experience that may not even be directly related to the text itself. But because it's an emotional response I'm not sure it's possible to present a thesis as to whether it can be enjoyed, so I'm wondering if "enjoy" is the right word to be using in a critical analysis. A critical analysis could I suppose make an argument as to whether something should be enjoyed, but "you shouldn't have enjoyed that" is a different argument from "you didn't/couldn't enjoy that."

The two points that BotL seems to be raising, as I can vaguely interpret (and I could be wrong), are:

That he is not satisfied that people are presenting justifications for their enjoyment of the book with textual evidence. That is, what specifically triggered an emotional response and why did people think so based on what Rothfuss actually did in the text. "I liked the book" isn't sufficient vs. "I liked this passage because (reason)." He is, after all, using text passages for commentary so it seems only fair to ask people to do the same. Or at least to counter-argue against his claims regarding their enjoyability.
That people are not presenting a valid and textually-supported argument for the merit of the work, and that they seem to be confusing a positive emotional response to the experience of reading with the work actually being linguistically, artistically, narratively, whatever, meritorious as literature. For example, arguing in defense of a passage that he was critical of, bringing up passages he did not and arguing for how they enrich or support other passages, and how these things relate to a greater thematic whole that demonstrates that the work is both emotionally and intellectually worthwhile in some manner he has not considered (or has and disagrees with).

So what would satisfy him would be something like, I don't know, "I think if you look at (part) you'll notice Rothfuss is repeating (element) in order to (some metaphor or whatever), and I think it's done subtly and effectively to make a greater point about Kvothe's story and stories in general." Or maybe "I actually enjoyed the way (passage he didn't post) makes a (funny/insightful/well-written) point and I think there's a lot of that running through this chapter." Something of that form?

Or perhaps nothing will satisfy him. I dunno.

# ? Feb 29, 2016 07:49

anilEhilated: Feb 17, 2014; But I say fuck the rain.; Grimey Drawer

SatansBestBuddy posted:

I quite enjoy these books because they remind me of my Japanese Manga.

There's actually some relevance to that - people here talk about "old" Kvothe but isn't he supposed to be in his twenties? That's a convention pretty hard to find elsewhere, even with the lower lifespan of Ye Olden Times.

# ? Feb 29, 2016 11:23

jivjov: Sep 13, 2007; But how does it taste? Yummy!; Dinosaur Gum

Nakar posted:

Or perhaps nothing will satisfy him. I dunno.

Ding ding ding we have a winner!

He's pre-ordained that Rothfuss' novels are Objectively Bad and anyone who enjoyed them is Reading Wrong or whatever.

I've got no problem that he does not like some books that I like. That's fine; differing opinions keep life interesting. But it's supremely annoying that he is stuck up on this high horse of "oh no no, you didn't actually like this book you liked. Read it properly and you'll stop liking it"

# ? Feb 29, 2016 12:16

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

Nakar posted:

Or perhaps nothing will satisfy him. I dunno.

You're correct except for this. People can prove that they find reading Kingkiller to be enjoyable. it's however a Catch-22, because unless you enjoy critically reading something bad, being entertained by Kingkiller requires a measure of bad taste.

Fans of Kingkiller have contributed to this discussion with what they like, but it's rather disjointed. They're entertained by aspects of the novels, but struggle to say anything meaningful about them. They liked the little touches, they liked that conversation, you don't notice the flow of time for how well prose flows. None of them have actually said what Kingkiller is about and how that might make it good and enjoyable. I suggest this is because even Kingkiller is not sure what it's about.

jivjov posted:

He's pre-ordained that Rothfuss' novels are Objectively Bad and anyone who enjoyed them is Reading Wrong or whatever.

That Rothfuss's novels are bad is my subjective opinion - but just because it's a subjective opinion doesn't stop it from being completely and totally right. Subjectivity is not at all incompatible with truth.

That Rothfuss's novels are bad is not objective reality - it is truth.

BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Aug 18, 2016

# ? Feb 29, 2016 13:18

jivjov: Sep 13, 2007; But how does it taste? Yummy!; Dinosaur Gum

So are you a gimmick shitposter? Or do you actually believe that your opinions are objective truth?

# ? Feb 29, 2016 13:29

Phobeste: Apr 9, 2006; never, like, count out Touchdown Tom, man

SatansBestBuddy posted:

I'm actually in the middle of reading those books myself, and yeah, the actual writing and use of words to create images and discuss ideas is worlds better than what Rothfuss has put out. I've already finished the main series and am working on the side stories right now, which do a great job of fleshing out the world and make me wish I had read them first. Though I felt that the fourth book was a bit of a wash, wasn't it?

I mean, LeGuin wrote Tehanu almost twenty years after The Farthest Shore, and the fifth book and the side stories ten years after that. While I like Tehanu a lot, I try not to look at it as part of that trilogy - it told a self contained story and it told it really well, they're my favorite fantasy books.

# ? Feb 29, 2016 13:55

Oxxidation: Jul 22, 2007

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

People who stress something being "subjective" or "just an opinion" are simply afraid of asserting truth. What I'm doing is look at the truth of Rothfuss's writing. I speak of all aspects of his writing and their effect to understand its essence.

Man, I know that you're on an aggressive campaign to justify your education to the world for shits and giggles but you could probably stand to turn it down a notch. Formal literary criticism is a decaying field for a good reason.

# ? Feb 29, 2016 15:17

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

This is again the problem of describing a book as a container for things you like instead of appreciating reading the book as whole. Anyone can gather up bits up from the book that are effective - but this is missing the forest for the trees.

I'm not understanding your asserted problem here. I enjoyed the Name of the Wind in the same way I enjoyed Baudelino (or The Book of the New Sun); I can't say as I've ever read a book without finding portions that were less powerful or entertaining than others.

Further - your commentary is, unsurprisingly, picking and choosing portions of the text to emphasize or criticize; suggesting that people can't do the same for portions they enjoy seems disingenuous.

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

You're correct except for this. People can prove that they find reading Kingkiller to be enjoyable. it's however a Catch-22, because unless you enjoy critically reading something bad, being entertained by Kingkiller requires a measure of bad taste.

You've already begged the question here, of course, but I question what definition you are using of bad, other than "things BravestOfTheLamps doesn't like."

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

None of them have actually said what Kingkiller is about and how that might make it good and enjoyable. I suggest this is because even Kingkiller is not sure what it's about.

This is an odd criticism. Kingkiller is a coming of age story so far. It has hints that it might turn into something better - or worse - but, to date, we have a child growing up into an adult. Call it Harry Potter, Magicians, or Taran Wanderer if you want; there doesn't need to be more than that. There are only two stories, after all; this one is a man goes on a journey.

ulmont fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Feb 29, 2016

# ? Feb 29, 2016 15:28

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# ? May 24, 2024 20:07

Hughlander: May 11, 2005

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

You're correct except for this. People can prove that they find reading Kingkiller to be enjoyable. it's however a Catch-22, because unless you enjoy critically reading something bad, being entertained by Kingkiller requires a measure of bad taste.

Ok, so we just need to monitor someone's dopamine and oxytocin levels while reading Kingkiller. This will objectively show that it's enjoyable and then your Serotonin level will plummet. Right?

# ? Feb 29, 2016 15:39

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Patrick Rothfuss: Technical Difficulties

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