Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

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skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

The bit you�re thinking of is earlier when Frodo and Faramir are discussing plans at Henneth Annun. Faramir repeatedly tells Frodo not to go to Cirith Ungol (he even says �Gandalf wouldn�t have wanted you to do this� which is kind of a low blow imo) and Frodo�s like, well where am I supposed to go then genius.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 16:48

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 21:01

Trin Tragula: Apr 22, 2005

Nah, this is the bit we're all thinking of; it comes *after* Gandalf finds out where Frodo's gone, he goes back to his lodgings and talks with Pippin.

quote:

Gandalf put his hand on Pippin�s head. �There never was much hope,� he answered. �Just a fool�s hope, as I have been told.
And when I heard of Cirith Ungol�� He broke off and strode to the window, as if his eyes could pierce the night in the East.
�Cirith Ungol!� he muttered. �Why that way, I wonder?� He turned. �Just now, Pippin, my heart almost failed me, hearing that
name. And yet in truth I believe that the news that Faramir brings has some hope in it. For it seems clear that our Enemy
has opened his war at last and made the first move while Frodo was still free. So now for many days he will have his eye turned this way and that, away from his own land. And yet, Pippin, I feel from afar his haste and fear. He has begun sooner than he would. Something has happened to stir him.'

# ? Jul 27, 2018 17:16

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

That�s a good point. I�m not sure what he�s still wondering about then, since he surely can�t have expected them to get in by the Black Gate or its associated tunnelworks, walk round the entire country, or just scale the freaking mountains. Maybe he is just worried because he now knows Gollum was leading them there. A bit later when Pippin asks him about Gollum he does say that he fears Gollum will betray them.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 17:21

Ginette Reno: Nov 18, 2006; How Doers get more done; Fun Shoe

skasion posted:

That�s a good point. I�m not sure what he�s still wondering about then, since he surely can�t have expected them to get in by the Black Gate or its associated tunnelworks, walk round the entire country, or just scale the freaking mountains. Maybe he is just worried because he now knows Gollum was leading them there. A bit later when Pippin asks him about Gollum he does say that he fears Gollum will betray them.

Yeah the passage Trin mentioned is the one I was thinking of. But I guess it's just Gandalf being a worry wart. He's having that reaction people sometimes have to a situation where there is no good answer where you get mad about a decision someone made but then realize the alternative is just as bad.

I suppose it's possible Gandalf/Aragorn would know another way over the mountains but I doubt it. And any such paths would have been scouted by Sauron and defended anyways. There's no good way into Mordor.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 17:44

sweet geek swag: Mar 29, 2006; Adjust lasers to FUN!

Plus Shelob is legit something that, as far as Gandalf knows, Frodo and Sam have no means of fighting. Once he thinks about it he seems to realize it is probably the best way to sneak into Mordor. Of course Sam ends up fighting Shelob anyway. And winning!

# ? Jul 27, 2018 19:00

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

skasion posted:

Honestly Frodo should have probably been a bit wary from the moment he heard the name. He has at least a bit of elvish, surely Cirith Ungol sounds suggestive enough.

Plus you'd think any basic grounding in Elvish lore/history would have mentioned Ungoliant. There's even a bit in one of the Lay of Leithian fragments about how Elves won't touch any spiders because Ungoliant.

Ginette Reno posted:

I suppose it's possible Gandalf/Aragorn would know another way over the mountains but I doubt it. And any such paths would have been scouted by Sauron and defended anyways. There's no good way into Mordor.

Aragorn's certainly been close-up to Mordor; he says as much to the Council about when he was hunting Gollum:

quote:

If a man must needs walk in sight of the Black Gate, or tread the deadly flowers of Morgul Vale, then perils he will have. I, too, despaired at last, and I began my homeward journey. And then, by fortune, I came suddenly on what I sought: the marks of soft feet beside a muddy pool. But now the trail was fresh and swift, and it led not to Mordor but away.

But I don't think there's anything that implies he knows any secret way in.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 19:22

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

Ginette Reno posted:

This is true

Ravenfood posted:

I think I remember Gandalf basically saying "whyyy" and then coming to the same conclusion that he really didn't have a better suggestion for them to have gone with their information.

Yeah, the comedy "realistic" answer is that Gandalf's plan was to get close to Mordor on foot, then, like, hop on eagles and fly to Orodruin in, like, minutes, superfast, and drop the ring in ASAP (if necessary, with hobbit still attached).

The actual in-story answer is that Gandalf didn't have any better ideas either and was trying to figure poo poo out as he went along just like the rest of them.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 19:36

SHISHKABOB: Nov 30, 2012; Fun Shoe

sweet geek swag posted:

Plus Shelob is legit something that, as far as Gandalf knows, Frodo and Sam have no means of fighting. Once he thinks about it he seems to realize it is probably the best way to sneak into Mordor. Of course Sam ends up fighting Shelob anyway. And winning!

When I read these books as a kid I cried when Sam finally fought off Shelob, I was so happy.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 20:23

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Runcible Cat posted:

Plus you'd think any basic grounding in Elvish lore/history would have mentioned Ungoliant. There's even a bit in one of the Lay of Leithian fragments about how Elves won't touch any spiders because Ungoliant.

To argue against myself here, we really don�t know how open the Noldor are about teaching to mortals. The fact that Bilbo felt an urge to translate the elvish myths into common speech suggests that no vulgate text was available. Hobbits do not seem to believe in the gods except in an extremely vague sense. Strider�s explanation of the Lay to the group at Weathertop is obviously given in the expectation that his audience does not have the slightest idea what he is talking about. Also, when Frodo speaks elvish it�s sometimes treated in a way like he�s speaking not entirely of his own volition, as when he �heard himself� invoke Varda against the Witchking or, invoking E�rendil against Shelob, �knew not what he had spoken�. So maybe he only knows a couple stories and some stock pleasantries and no more than that.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 20:26

Data Graham: Dec 28, 2009; 📈📊🍪😋

And of course swear words

# ? Jul 27, 2018 20:32

VanSandman: Feb 16, 2011; SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER

Data Graham posted:

And of course swear words

I hope he called somebody a puntl.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 20:35

Ginette Reno: Nov 18, 2006; How Doers get more done; Fun Shoe

skasion posted:

To argue against myself here, we really don�t know how open the Noldor are about teaching to mortals. The fact that Bilbo felt an urge to translate the elvish myths into common speech suggests that no vulgate text was available. Hobbits do not seem to believe in the gods except in an extremely vague sense. Strider�s explanation of the Lay to the group at Weathertop is obviously given in the expectation that his audience does not have the slightest idea what he is talking about. Also, when Frodo speaks elvish it�s sometimes treated in a way like he�s speaking not entirely of his own volition, as when he �heard himself� invoke Varda against the Witchking or, invoking E�rendil against Shelob, �knew not what he had spoken�. So maybe he only knows a couple stories and some stock pleasantries and no more than that.

I assumed the Shelob one was Frodo being influenced by the artifact Galadriel gave him.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 21:14

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Ginette Reno posted:

I assumed the Shelob one was Frodo being influenced by the artifact Galadriel gave him.

Yeah. The star-glass is working magic on them through the whole scene, beginning with the vision/memory it shows Sam to remind him that it exists, and culminating in Sam himself reciting an elvish hymn which he explicitly can�t understand.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 21:19

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

skasion posted:

To argue against myself here, we really don�t know how open the Noldor are about teaching to mortals. The fact that Bilbo felt an urge to translate the elvish myths into common speech suggests that no vulgate text was available. Hobbits do not seem to believe in the gods except in an extremely vague sense. Strider�s explanation of the Lay to the group at Weathertop is obviously given in the expectation that his audience does not have the slightest idea what he is talking about. Also, when Frodo speaks elvish it�s sometimes treated in a way like he�s speaking not entirely of his own volition, as when he �heard himself� invoke Varda against the Witchking or, invoking E�rendil against Shelob, �knew not what he had spoken�. So maybe he only knows a couple stories and some stock pleasantries and no more than that.

Frodo knows enough to identify the guys singing about Elbereth as High Elves, at least, and to manage a translation of what they're singing, though how much knowledge of Varda herself that means he has is probably arguable.

Frodo and Bilbo could well be in an equivalent position to Latin/Greek-speaking educated people when there were no English translations of the Bible; though whether they have access to any actual Elvish texts rather than just chatting to any passing Elves....

ED: Balls. I just checked that section and it explicitly says:

quote:

It was singing in the fair elven-tongue, of which Frodo knew only a little, and the others knew nothing. Yet the sound blending with the melody seemed to shape itself in their thought into words which they only partly understood.

So there goes my argument.

Runcible Cat fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Jul 27, 2018

# ? Jul 27, 2018 21:27

Ginette Reno: Nov 18, 2006; How Doers get more done; Fun Shoe

skasion posted:

Yeah. The star-glass is working magic on them through the whole scene, beginning with the vision/memory it shows Sam to remind him that it exists, and culminating in Sam himself reciting an elvish hymn which he explicitly can�t understand.

Gandalf does something similar when Frodo has the ring on and Sauron nearly spots him after Boromir betrays the company. Frodo is wrestling with himself/Sauron mentally and he hears a thought telling him he's being a fool and to take it off. Whether Gandalf/Galadriel doing that is them doing so via the power of their rings or their own power is I guess up for debate. Iirc it's later revealed that Gandalf sat and wrestled with Sauron mentally to try and keep him from seeing Frodo. How Gandalf knew to do that I dunno.

It seems like Elves have some veiled spiritual power given that Frodo sees how angry/gleaming Glorfindel is when the Ringwraiths attack at the ford and Glorfindel obviously has no ring. I'd guess Elves existing in both worlds have some greater power over the supernatural than a Hobbit, Dwarf, or Human might. So Galadriel is probably pretty strong even without the aid of her ring.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 21:29

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

Glorfindel also has weird poo poo going on since he explicitly died in the Silmarillion iirc.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 21:31

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

It's not clear how much the Elves even bothered to write things down. I mean they wrote some things down, but it's not like they had to worry much about preserving records for their descendants.

quote:

'No. There is no barrow on Weathertop, nor on any of these hills,' answered Strider. 'The Men of the West did not live here; though in their latter days they defended the hills for a while against the evil that came out of Angmar. This path was made to serve the forts along the walls. But long before, in the first days of the North Kingdom, they built a great watch-tower on Weathertop, Amon S�l they called it. It was burned and broken, and nothing remains of it now but a tumbled ring, like a rough crown on the old hill's head. Yet once it was tall and fair. It is told that Elendil stood there watching for the coming of Gil-galad out of the West, in the days of the Last Alliance.'

The hobbits gazed at Strider. It seemed that he was learned in old lore, as well as in the ways of the wild. 'Who was Gil-galad?' asked Merry; but Strider did not answer, and seemed to be lost in thought. Suddenly a low voice murmured:

Gil-galad was an Elven-king.

Of him the harpers sadly sing:

the last whose realm was fair and free

between the Mountains and the Sea.

His sword was long, his lance was keen,

his shining helm afar was seen;

the countless stars of heaven's field

were mirrored in his silver shield.

But long ago he rode away,

and where he dwelleth none can say;

for into darkness fell his star

in Mordor where the shadows are.

The others turned in amazement, for the voice was Sam's.

'Don't stop!' said Merry.

'That's all I know,' stammered Sam, blushing. 'I learned it from Mr. Bilbo when I was a lad. He used to tell me tales like that, knowing how I was always one for hearing about Elves. It was Mr. Bilbo as taught me my letters. He was mighty book-learned was dear old Mr. Bilbo. And he wrote poetry. He wrote what I have just said.'

'He did not make it up,' said Strider. 'It is pan of the lay that is called The Fall of Gil-galad, which is in an ancient tongue. Bilbo must have translated it. I never knew that.'

quote:

'Tell us of Gil-galad,' said Merry suddenly, when he paused at the end of a story of the Elf-Kingdoms. 'Do you know any more of that old lay that you spoke of?'

'I do indeed,' answered Strider. 'So also does Frodo, for it concerns us closely.' Merry and Pippin looked at Frodo, who was staring into the fire.

'I know only the little that Gandalf has told me,' said Frodo slowly. 'Gil-galad was the last of the great Elf-kings of Middle-earth. Gil-galad is Starlight in their tongue. With Elendil, the Elf-friend, he went to the land of---'

'No!' said Strider interrupting, 'I do not think that tale should be told now with the servants of the Enemy at hand. If we win through to the house of Elrond, you may hear it there, told in full.'

'Then tell us some other tale of the old days,' begged Sam; 'a tale about the Elves before the fading time. I would dearly like to hear more about Elves; the dark seems to press round so close.'

'I will tell you the tale of Tin�viel,' said Strider, 'in brief - for it is a long tale of which the end is not known; and there are none now, except Elrond, that remember it aright as it was told of old. It is a fair tale, though it is sad, as are all the tales of Middle-earth, and yet it may lift up your hearts.' He was silent for some time, and then he began not to speak but to chant softly:

The leaves were long, the grass was green,

The hemlock-umbels tall and fair,

. . .. [ cut song ] . . .
And yet at last they met once more,

And long ago they passed away

In the forest singing sorrowless.

Strider sighed and paused before he spoke again. �That is a song,' he said, 'in the mode that is called ann-thennath among the Elves, but is hard to render in our Common Speech, and this is but a rough echo of it. It tells of the meeting of Beren son of Barahir and L�thien Tin�viel. Beren was a mortal man, but L�thien was the daughter of Thingol, a King of Elves upon Middle-earth when the world was young; and she was the fairest maiden that has ever been among all the children of this world. As the stars above the mists of the Northern lands was her loveliness, and in her face was a shining light. In those days the Great Enemy, of whom Sauron of Mordor was but a servant, dwelt in Angband in the North, and the Elves of the West coming back to Middle-earth made war upon him to regain the Silmarils which he had stolen; and the fathers of Men aided the Elves. But the Enemy was victorious and Barahir was slain, and Beren escaping through great peril came over the Mountains of Terror into the hidden Kingdom of Thingol in the forest of Neldoreth. There he beheld L�thien singing and dancing in a glade beside the enchanted river Esgalduin; and he named her Tin�viel, that is Nightingale in the language of old. Many sorrows befell them afterwards, and they were parted long. Tin�viel rescued Beren from the dungeons of Sauron, and together they passed through great dangers, and cast down even the Great Enemy from his throne, and took from his iron crown one of the three Silmarils, brightest of all jewels, to be the bride-price of L�thien to Thingol her father. Yet at the last Beren was slain by the Wolf that came from the gates of Angband, and he died in the arms of Tin�viel. But she chose mortality, and to die from the world, so that she might follow him; and it is sung that they met again beyond the Sundering Seas, and after a brief time walking alive once more in the green woods, together they passed, long ago, beyond the confines of this world. So it is that L�thien Tin�viel alone of the Elf-kindred has died indeed and left the world, and they have lost her whom they most loved. But from her the lineage of the Elf-lords of old descended among Men. There live still those of whom L�thien was the foremother, and it is said that her line shall never fail. Elrond of Rivendell is of that Kin. For of Beren and L�thien was born Dior Thingol's heir; and of him Elwing the White whom E�rendil wedded, he that sailed his ship out of the mists of the world into the seas of heaven with the Silmaril upon his brow. And of E�rendil came the Kings of N�menor, that is Westernesse.'

quote:

And then everyone will hush, like we did, when in Rivendell they told us the tale of Beren One-Hand and the Great Jewel. I wish I could hear it! And I wonder how it will go on after our part."

We can gather a few things from these passages.

1) the hobbits don't know ANY of this. Sam singing a snatch of verse about Earendil is bizarre to the point that Aragorn can deduce Bilbo specifically must have translated it out of the elvish. In other words, nobody else but Bilbo would have possibly done so.

2) Even then, "there are none now, except Elrond, that remember it aright as it was told of old." So elves don't write much stuff down, they rely on long memories; but you still have word-of-mouth problems.

3) All this stuff is extremely esoteric knowledge to the average inhabitant of middle earth.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 21:44

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

Ginette Reno posted:

Gandalf does something similar when Frodo has the ring on and Sauron nearly spots him after Boromir betrays the company. Frodo is wrestling with himself/Sauron mentally and he hears a thought telling him he's being a fool and to take it off. Whether Gandalf/Galadriel doing that is them doing so via the power of their rings or their own power is I guess up for debate. Iirc it's later revealed that Gandalf sat and wrestled with Sauron mentally to try and keep him from seeing Frodo. How Gandalf knew to do that I dunno.

It seems like Elves have some veiled spiritual power given that Frodo sees how angry/gleaming Glorfindel is when the Ringwraiths attack at the ford and Glorfindel obviously has no ring. I'd guess Elves existing in both worlds have some greater power over the supernatural than a Hobbit, Dwarf, or Human might. So Galadriel is probably pretty strong even without the aid of her ring.

Elves in general are, in Tolkien's cosmology, equivalent to pre-Fall Adam, so they have a certain innate godly power, yeah. A few specific elves (Galadriel being the most prominent example, possibly also Glorfindel) have additional power in that they have been to Heaven on Earth (Valinor) and saw the Light of the Two Trees before they were marred; in essence they have the light of Heaven within them and that translates into spiritual power.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 21:47

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

Also I had missed this

quote:

Sampson Gamgee lived and worked in Birmingham and his invention left a mark. Namely, since Gamgee Tissue was introduced, the people of Birmingham started using the word �gamgee� to refer to cotton and this slang term was widespread at the time when Tolkien was writing The Lord of the Rings trilogy.

Therefore, some Tolkien researchers argue that the great writer intentionally chose the surname Cotton for the character of Sam�s future wife Rose Cotton, in order to further emphasize the connection of the words �cotton� and �gamgee� with the pioneering work of Sampson Gamgee.

https://www.thevintagenews.com/2017/12/15/hobbit-samwise-gamgee-2/

# ? Jul 27, 2018 21:50

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

One thing I noticed in a recent reread is that, once you've read the Silmarillion, the much-vaunted depth to Middle-Earth in Lord of the Rings shrinks down massively. There were multiple points where I found myself asking if anything that wasn't in the Silmarillion ever happened in Middle-Earth. Like, were there any heroes at all in between Earendil and Frodo? One of the perils of pulling back the curtain, I guess.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 21:53

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

cheetah7071 posted:

One thing I noticed in a recent reread is that, once you've read the Silmarillion, the much-vaunted depth to Middle-Earth in Lord of the Rings shrinks down massively. There were multiple points where I found myself asking if anything that wasn't in the Silmarillion ever happened in Middle-Earth. Like, were there any heroes at all in between Earendil and Frodo? One of the perils of pulling back the curtain, I guess.

Tons, but they're in the appendices.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 22:11

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

cheetah7071 posted:

One thing I noticed in a recent reread is that, once you've read the Silmarillion, the much-vaunted depth to Middle-Earth in Lord of the Rings shrinks down massively. There were multiple points where I found myself asking if anything that wasn't in the Silmarillion ever happened in Middle-Earth. Like, were there any heroes at all in between Earendil and Frodo? One of the perils of pulling back the curtain, I guess.

Basically the problem here is that Tolkien wrote book-length stuff about the whole First Age and the end of the Third Age, but the Second Age and early Third Age never got a really detailed treatment. The most extensive single work on either of them is probably like Akallabeth, or maybe Aldarion and Erendis (which more people should read unfinished or no, that�s a really effective story). Whole parts of what happened in them never really got pinned down � for example the backstory of Galadriel/Celeborn and Eregion is a complete mess of contradictory statements at different times. Even within LOTR there�s a couple of allusions to this, when he digresses on the history of Shelob for example he goes something like �she was one of the spider monsters like those that Beren fought in the mountains on his way to Doriath, then she came and lived in Mordor, but nobody really knows how that poo poo went down because it was The Dark Years�. There�s kind of a lacuna of historical perspective on Middle-earth coinciding with the age of Numenorean power.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 22:30

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

Yeah, if an elf didn't know about it, we don't.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 22:33

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Not even, the whole second age was full of elves having a right good time and traveling all over the land and setting up new kingdoms and starting wars against gods and doing all that poo poo elves love to do, not to mention crafting fuckin rings of power. Given his fame as a scholar of a medieval language it seems a little odd that he writes a world where everything between the Fantasy Axial Age and Fantasy Modernity gets consigned to annals at best. Or maybe that�s exactly what he was getting at and we can think of the whole business of the second age as an elvish medium aevum.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 22:39

Oracle: Oct 9, 2004

Ravenfood posted:

Glorfindel also has weird poo poo going on since he explicitly died in the Silmarillion iirc.

Elves are reincarnated, they're bound to the 'circles of the world' and thus do not enjoy/suffer the Gift/Doom of Man (e.g. to leave the circles of Middle Earth after they die. And go where? Nobody knows, but its why its such a big deal for elves to choose to marry a human and why only three had done it in the recorded history of the elves.) IIRC they chill out in the Halls of Mandos for awhile before being reborn.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 22:43

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

I should also probably mention that the way the story developed, the idea that there would be a 6000 year gap between the War of the Jewels and the War of the Ring was by no means always a feature. When The Hobbit was written he envisioned it as taking place immediately after, or at least within mortal memory of, the events of the Lay of Leithian. Even when LotR and its inbuilt history of Sauron and his war with the Last Alliance came into the picture, the timescale he was envisioning was probably like an order of magnitude less than what it comes out to in the published work. So if the resulting timeframe seems thin and stretched that�s probably why.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 22:44

Data Graham: Dec 28, 2009; 📈📊🍪😋

Well� Olsen makes a pretty strong case that at the time of writing, he didn�t think of The Hobbit as existing in the same universe as the Silmarillion at all. It was just a fairy tale with ogres and giants and witches and talking handbags. But he couldn�t resist recycling his favorite elements�the Elvenking isn�t supposed to be some descendant or colleague of Thingol, he is Thingol, with the serial numbers filed off (and no Melian). Mirkwood is Doriath, the spiders are the spiders from Nan Dungortheb, Elrond is just some wise dude who he reused the name Elrond on, etc.

It wasn�t until the moment quoted above, when he decided to directly reference the Tin�viel story, that the Hobbit/LotR story became firmly a part of the Silmarillion mythos and he had to seriously think about how the timetables all fit together.

Data Graham fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Jul 27, 2018

# ? Jul 27, 2018 22:55

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

skasion posted:

Not even, the whole second age was full of elves having a right good time and traveling all over the land and setting up new kingdoms and starting wars against gods and doing all that poo poo elves love to do, not to mention crafting fuckin rings of power. Given his fame as a scholar of a medieval language it seems a little odd that he writes a world where everything between the Fantasy Axial Age and Fantasy Modernity gets consigned to annals at best. Or maybe that�s exactly what he was getting at and we can think of the whole business of the second age as an elvish medium aevum.

Gandalf comments on the "One Ring to Rule Them All" bit in the Council of Elrond in a way I find really evocative:

quote:

Out of the Black Years come the words that the Smiths of Eregion heard, and knew that they had been betrayed:

One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them.

And later you see the wastelands that were Eregion, and it's a wonderful piece of historical hinting.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 23:40

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

I forget exactly where I read it, but I remember something along the lines of Aragorn having specifically planned to guide Frodo and probably also Sam into Mordor. It's a lot more plausible (in the abstract) that Aragorn with his ancient king sword might have been able to take down Shelob, or at least mortally wound her while the hobbitses got clear.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 23:53

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

It's explicit in the books that Aragorn planned to follow Boromir to Minas Tirith originally. When Gandalf died he was conflicted about what to do.

# ? Jul 27, 2018 23:59

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

After Lothlorien Aragorn makes up his mind not to go to Minas Tirith, even though that's what he wants to do. He doesn't say so explicitly until after the death of Boromir though. He feels responsible for leading Frodo on now that Gandalf is dead, but when Frodo skedaddles Aragorn takes that as a sign that it was not his fate to go with him.

# ? Jul 28, 2018 00:08

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

skasion posted:

To argue against myself here, we really don�t know how open the Noldor are about teaching to mortals. The fact that Bilbo felt an urge to translate the elvish myths into common speech suggests that no vulgate text was available. Hobbits do not seem to believe in the gods except in an extremely vague sense. Strider�s explanation of the Lay to the group at Weathertop is obviously given in the expectation that his audience does not have the slightest idea what he is talking about. Also, when Frodo speaks elvish it�s sometimes treated in a way like he�s speaking not entirely of his own volition, as when he �heard himself� invoke Varda against the Witchking or, invoking E�rendil against Shelob, �knew not what he had spoken�. So maybe he only knows a couple stories and some stock pleasantries and no more than that.

This reminds me of an extremely entertaining aside in the current LOTR podcast when someone in Bree says �Bless you� and we wonder from whom they are asking a blessing.

# ? Jul 28, 2018 01:17

Trin Tragula: Apr 22, 2005

quote:

about who's going where

Right, let's do this properly.

The first time anyone speaks about how the Company might get to Rivendell is when Elrond has Frodo confirm that he will take the Ring to Mordor. His incredibly useful advice on which way Frodo should go:

quote:

Then I cannot help you much, not even with counsel,� said Elrond. �I can foresee very little of your road; and how your task
is to be achieved I do not know. The Shadow has crept now to the feet of the Mountains, and draws nigh even to the borders
of the Greyflood; and under the Shadow all is dark to me.

Yeah, thanks for that, pal. Elrond says Sam and Gandalf will go and says nothing useful; he then nominates Gimli and Legolas to represent ~~slash fiction~~ Dwarves and Elves in the Company.

quote:

They are willing to go at least to the passes of the Mountains, and maybe beyond.

We never find out what Gimli and Legolas's opinions are once they get beyond; they are content to follow Aragorn's lead. Elrond then nominates Aragorn for Men.

quote:

Strider!� cried Frodo.
�Yes,� he said with a smile. �I ask leave once again to be your companion, Frodo.�
�I would have begged you to come,� said Frodo, �only I thought you were going to Minas Tirith with Boromir.�
�I am,� said Aragorn. �And the Sword-that-was-Broken shall be re-forged ere I set out to war. But your road and our road lie
together for many hundreds of miles. Therefore Boromir will also be in the Company. He is a valiant man.�

Between this and the dip into Aragorn's mind in chapter 8:

quote:

His own plan, while Gandalf remained with them, had been to go with Boromir, and with his sword help to deliver Gondor. For
he believed that the message of the dreams was a summons, and that the hour had come at last when the heir of Elendil should
come forth and strive with Sauron for the mastery. But in Moria the burden of Gandalf had been laid on him; and he knew that
he could not now
forsake the Ring, if Frodo refused in the end to go with Boromir. And yet what help could he or any of the Company give to
Frodo, save to walk blindly with him into the darkness?

it's clear that until Gandalf falls, Aragorn intends to go to Minas Tirith. He then prepares for the journey with Gandalf.

quote:

Aragorn and Gandalf walked together or sat speaking of their road and the perils they would meet; and they pondered the storied
and figured maps and books of lore that were in the house of Elrond. Sometimes Frodo was with them; but he was content to
lean on their guidance, and he spent as much time as he could with Bilbo.

I suspect that when it comes to discussions of the road, they spend far more time talking about the way to cross the Misty Mountains than any other thing, based on the conversation they have in Hollin. Frodo overhears them, and thinks they're "continuing some debate that had begun long before". Since Aragorn intends to go to Minas Tirith, it is presumably of lesser importance to him how the Ring is going to go the last mile into Mordor. Perhaps Gandalf was hoping that Aragorn and Denethor might rally some kind of resistance as a distraction to provoke the hasty stroke?

The last thing of value from Rivendell is Elrond's final words before they depart.

quote:

�The Ring-bearer is setting out on the Quest of Mount Doom. On him
alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any
handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need. The others go with him as free companions,
to help him on his way. You may tarry, or come back, or turn aside into other paths, as chance allows. The further you go,
the less easy will it be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will. For you do not yet know
the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road.�

�Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens,� said Gimli.
�Maybe,� said Elrond, �but let him not vow to walk in the dark, who has not seen the nightfall.�
�Yet sworn word may strengthen quaking heart,� said Gimli.
�Or break it,� said Elrond. �Look not too far ahead! But go now with good hearts!'

Elrond clearly tells all nine of them to place some trust in chance and fate rather than overly-rigorous planning. We do, though, know that Gandalf intended to make for Lorien, and possibly also down Anduin towards Rauros, from what Aragorn says after taking the lead, as they stand by the source of the Silverlode.

quote:

Soon it becomes a swift river, and it gathers water from many other mountain-streams,� said Aragorn. �Our road leads beside
it for many miles. For I shall take you by the road that Gandalf chose, and first I hope to come to the woods where the Silverlode
flows into the
Great River � out yonder.� They looked as he pointed, and before them they could see the stream leaping down to the trough
of the valley, and then running on and away into the lower lands, until it was lost in a golden haze.

�There lie the woods of Lothl�rien!� said Legolas.

Celeborn then confirms that Rauros is the point to leave the River and go to Minas Tirith.

quote:

There it casts its arms about the steep shores of the isle, and falls then with a great noise and
smoke over the cataracts of Rauros down into the Nindalf, the Wetwang as it is called in your tongue. That is a wide region
of sluggish fen where the stream becomes tortuous and much divided. There the Entwash flows in by many mouths from the Forest
of Fangorn in the west. About that stream, on this side of the Great River, lies Rohan. On the further side are the bleak
hills of the Emyn Muil. The wind blows from the East there, for they look out over the Dead Marshes and the Noman-lands to
Cirith Gorgor and the black gates of Mordor.

�Boromir, and any that go with him seeking Minas Tirith, will do well to leave the Great River above Rauros and cross the
Entwash before it finds the marshes. Yet they should not go too far up that stream, nor risk becoming entangled in the Forest
of Fangorn. That
is a strange land, and is now little known. But Boromir and Aragorn doubtless do not need this warning.�

Aragorn then says something interesting when he and Frodo discuss Gollum.

quote:

�We shall have to try going faster tomorrow. You lie down now, and I will keep watch for what is left of the night. I wish
I could lay my hands on the wretch. We might make him useful. But if I cannot, we shall have to try and lose him.

I wonder what he meant by this? Could he have discussed the possibility of picking up Gollum somewhere with Gandalf? Frodo, of course, eventually finds Gollum to be indispensably useful. At some point, Aragorn resolves not to decide which way he'll go until he's been up Amon Hen.

quote:

Do you not know, Boromir, or do you choose to forget the North Stair, and the high seat upon Amon Hen, that were made
in the days of the great kings? I at least have a mind to stand in that high place again, before I decide my further course.
There, maybe, we shall see some sign that will guide us.

And, as fate would have it, he does indeed get a sign to guide him when everything goes to arse, although probably not the one he expected. The rest is clear enough; Aragorn wants to go to Minas Tirith but would have guided Frodo to Mordor, had he been allowed to, but hasn't prepared at all for that and would have been equally reliant on Gollum's guidance in the end.

And the most important thing of all is Elrond's advice to not look too far ahead and leave room for fate and chance to play its part. Had the Company not faffed around at Amon Hen trying to make up their minds, and instead immediately set out on their already-agreed paths, Boromir loses his chance to get Frodo alone and seize the Ring; the Orcs never catch up to the Company in disorder to slay Boromir and capture Merry and Pippin; which in turn means the Ents may never have been roused (since they only did so because the delay dragged long enough for Merry and Pippin to be captured and taken to Fangorn to meet Treebeard). Without their intervention, the best we can hope for is probably that Gandalf, Boromir, and whoever else headed towards Rohan and Minas Tirith would have died in Rohan fighting Saruman's forces, probably at Helm's Deep with Theoden and Erkenbrand; in any case there's no power strong enough to march on Saruman and wreck Nan Curunir; Aragorn would never have been able to distract Sauron from the Ring by challenging him with the palantir of Orthanc; and so on. I expect the party with the Ring would have made it to Cirith Ungol, and possibly even defeated Shelob, but in doing so caused such a carry-on that the Morgul-guards would have ended up taking serious notice; the presence of a Dunedain (and maybe an elf and a dwarf also) ensures Sauron's full attention, particularly as there's no distractions in Gondor and Rohan, and then Sauron diverts an army to trap them in; discovery and loss of the Ring follows shortly thereafter. Game Over.

So there you have it; amusing eagle-related puns aside, it seems pretty clear that Gandalf himself made no serious or firm plan for getting into Mordor, and probably not for anything past Rauros at the latest (allowing him to be surprised and worried on learning that Frodo went to Cirith Ungol), and instead put his trust in Elrond's assurance that chance would play its part, which it did.

Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Jul 28, 2018

# ? Jul 28, 2018 03:19

Winifred Madgers: Feb 12, 2002

Trin Tragula posted:

Wetwang

omg, mods please change my name this instant

# ? Jul 28, 2018 03:31

elise the great: May 1, 2012; You do not have to be good. You only have to let the soft animal of your body love what it loves.

Now that is the good good exegetical poo poo I come here for mmhmmmm

# ? Jul 28, 2018 04:55

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

Trin Tragula posted:

I suspect that when it comes to discussions of the road, they spend far more time talking about the way to cross the Misty Mountains than any other thing, based on the conversation they have in Hollin. Frodo overhears them, and thinks they're "continuing some debate that had begun long before". Since Aragorn intends to go to Minas Tirith, it is presumably of lesser importance to him how the Ring is going to go the last mile into Mordor. Perhaps Gandalf was hoping that Aragorn and Denethor might rally some kind of resistance as a distraction to provoke the hasty stroke?

If he knew Faramir and co were guerrillaing around Ithilien, he could also be hoping that they had better and more up-to-date info about how to get through the Ephel Duath and/or could act as escorts.

Trin Tragula posted:

I wonder what he meant by this? Could he have discussed the possibility of picking up Gollum somewhere with Gandalf? Frodo, of course, eventually finds Gollum to be indispensably useful.

It would be pretty stupid of them if they hadn't as soon as they knew he was following them - they know Gollum's got into and out of Mordor, so they'd be very keen on finding out the paths he used and what info he had on who and what might be guarding them.

# ? Jul 28, 2018 10:10

cptn_dr: Sep 7, 2011; Seven for beauty that blossoms and dies

I was reading through a book about the art Tolkien did to illustrate Middle Earth, and it got me hoping that the Amazon series aims to emulate that look more than the Alan Lee / John Howe grandiosity that PJ went with.

# ? Jul 30, 2018 07:46

sassassin: Apr 3, 2010; by Azathoth

Trin Tragula posted:

Aragorn would never have been able to distract Sauron from the Ring by challenging him with the palantir of Orthanc;

Denethor had one and you better believe Aragorn's appearance at Minas Tirith would have been in the newsletter.

# ? Jul 30, 2018 22:28

Trin Tragula: Apr 22, 2005

Assuming he does go to Minas Tirith instead of with the Ringbearer: sure, but there's a huge difference between Sauron gaining mastery of Denethor's thoughts and so realising "man, that guy's still around? I'll enjoy arranging an accident for him when the time comes" and

quote:

�I have looked in the Stone of Orthanc, my friends.�

�You have looked in that accursed stone of wizardry!� exclaimed Gimli with fear and astonishment in his face. �Did you say
aught to - him? Even Gandalf feared that encounter.�

�You forget to whom you speak,� said Aragorn sternly, and his eyes glinted. �What do you fear that I should say to him? Did
I not openly proclaim my title before the doors of Edoras? Nay, Gimli,� he said in a softer voice, and the grimness left his
face, and he looked like one who has laboured in sleepless pain for many nights. �Nay, my friends, I am the lawful master
of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it, or so I judged. The right cannot be doubted. The strength
was enough � barely.�

He drew a deep breath. �It was a bitter struggle, and the weariness is slow to pass. I spoke no word to him, and in the end
I wrenched the Stone to my own will. That alone he will find hard to endure. And he beheld me. Yes, Master Gimli, he saw me,
but in other guise than you see me here. If that will aid him, then I have done ill. But I do not think so. To know that I
lived and walked the earth was a blow to his heart, I deem; for he knew it not till now. The eyes in Orthanc did not see through the armour of Th�oden; but Sauron has not forgotten Isildur and the sword of Elendil. Now in the very hour of his great designs the heir of Isildur and the Sword are revealed; for I showed the blade re-forged to him. He is not so mighty yet that he is above fear; nay, doubt ever gnaws him.�

�But he wields great dominion, nonetheless,� said Gimli; �and now he will strike more swiftly.�
�The hasty stroke goes oft astray,� said Aragorn. �We must press our Enemy, and no longer wait upon him for the move. See
my friends, when I had mastered the Stone, I learned many things. A grave peril I saw coming unlooked-for upon Gondor from the South that will draw off great strength from the defence of Minas Tirith. If it is not countered swiftly, I deem that the City will be lost ere ten days be gone.�

And, as Aragorn politely points out for me, unless he himself uses a palantir, nobody finds out about the coming of the fleet from Umbar, and so he never takes the Paths of the Dead to defeat them.

Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Jul 30, 2018

# ? Jul 30, 2018 22:58

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 21:01

Data Graham: Dec 28, 2009; 📈📊🍪😋

Tangentially � this may be a very dumb question and I'm likely forgetting something super obvious, but why did Sauron suddenly decide that now's the time to send out his armies and shadows and attempt to defeat the West once and for all? What's the catalyst of his attack?

Was it that he heard about the lead on the Ring? And he decided to go out and find it, and that would give him the power to defeat the West once and for all? If so, why does he keep on with his plans even as the Ring keeps eluding him?

I was mentally worrying over other fantasy stories where there's a Dark Lord who's readying a big apocalyptic war, but in most cases that I can think of it's just sort of a foregone conclusion that it's going to happen, like everyone looks up in the sky, sniffs the wind, and goes "Mmmyep Mabel, looks like it's time for the End of the World. Knew it was coming sooner or later"

You know? Like the war is just happening because the plot demands it, because the book needs high stakes and a climax. Feels like there ought to be a more causative reason in LotR, something that makes sense from Sauron's perspective, right? And there probably is, I'm just overlooking something blindingly obvious.

# ? Jul 30, 2018 23:34

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

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