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cheetah7071 posted:Gaia resisting Lohgrif does make me wonder how often that happens though. Like Elidibus wakes up Igeyorhm's latest sundered soul and he gets told to gently caress off and he just has to try again with the next one Fandaniel's whole thing makes it seem like the sundered ascian didn't have a lot of wiggle room in their actions. given the number of shards and the weird time stuff between them, the unsundered could probably replace on a biweekly basis without any trouble. there's also the bit where Mitron treated the rejoinings as a means to an end to be with Lohgrif forever rather than the main goal itself, and Lohgrif seemed to be fairly on board with that until she got a new girlfriend, so they can and do have motivations of their own that don't necessarily line up 100% with the agenda of the unsundered. with all that said, i strongly suspect we'll have at least one Ascian defector on our side for Endwalker. in general Fandaniel being a rogue agent puts the remaining leaderless Ascians in a weird spot for the narrative. Vanderdeath posted:I wonder why that when conversations about awful crimes against humanity crop up, no one ever mentions Cylva. She was unfortunately pressed into a role she didn't want (much like Fordola) yet she was successful in killing roughly 80% of a planet's population via the Flood. The narrative and the characters all seem pretty cool with the fact that she's partially responsible for a lot of sorrow, but compared to Fordola and Yotsuyu, she barely catches any smoke from the fanbase. that would require people to first know about Cylva and then also be invested in her. being locked behind having done all role quests (and then later all Unulkalhai quests) makes that rather difficult. in general though, when it comes to punitive justice vs rehabilitative justice, FF14's narrative definitely favours the latter over killing or incarcerating. the whole idea being people who committed wrongs have a moral duty to do everything in their power to undo those wrongs and then some, and they can't do that when imprisoned or dead. the vast majority of former antagonists made it their life's mission to fix their past mistakes, the only one i can think of who doesn't quite fit is Nero and that's only because he's incredibly tsundere about it.
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May 10, 2021 11:50
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Vanderdeath posted:I wonder why that when conversations about awful crimes against humanity crop up, no one ever mentions Cylva. She was unfortunately pressed into a role she didn't want (much like Fordola) yet she was successful in killing roughly 80% of a planet's population via the Flood. The narrative and the characters all seem pretty cool with the fact that she's partially responsible for a lot of sorrow, but compared to Fordola and Yotsuyu, she barely catches any smoke from the fanbase. Possibly, and I'm just asspulling here, it's because she's depowered. She mentions in the Role Cap Quest that she can barely swing a sword anymore, on account of a century+ of atrophy from doing so, so maybe people figure that her working in food service is punishment enough? Plus, her Evil Deeds didn't really affect us, they were part of Ardbert and friend's story, not ours. We never had to fight the Shadow Keeper (Eden doesn't count), she never betrayed us or killed anybody close to us, so we don't take it personally like we do with Yotsuyu and Fordola and the others when we find out who she was.
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May 10, 2021 11:54
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Vanderdeath posted:I wonder why that when conversations about awful crimes against humanity crop up, no one ever mentions Cylva. She was unfortunately pressed into a role she didn't want (much like Fordola) yet she was successful in killing roughly 80% of a planet's population via the Flood. The narrative and the characters all seem pretty cool with the fact that she's partially responsible for a lot of sorrow, but compared to Fordola and Yotsuyu, she barely catches any smoke from the fanbase. probably in part because the revelation of who she really is and what she did is obscured behind several questlines that become optional after you complete one of them and require you to have expansion-level jobs of various roles to even start.
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May 10, 2021 11:55
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Vanderdeath posted:I wonder why that when conversations about awful crimes against humanity crop up, no one ever mentions Cylva. She was unfortunately pressed into a role she didn't want (much like Fordola) yet she was successful in killing roughly 80% of a planet's population via the Flood. The narrative and the characters all seem pretty cool with the fact that she's partially responsible for a lot of sorrow, but compared to Fordola and Yotsuyu, she barely catches any smoke from the fanbase.  The First is also probably being treated as side content, in a sense, by a lot of people, which isn't helped by the fact that it is real loving hard to go there (except for us, Feo Ul to some extent, and perhaps Gaia and Ryne plus any surviving Ascians). Meanwhile, the Garlean empire is right THERE, so the evil poo poo that Yotsuyu and Fordola did has a different and much heavier weight. e: beaten like a Doman fisherman
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May 10, 2021 11:59
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Also, while Cylva is a MASSIVE fucker, she's basically put in that position 100% only because of Elidibus, who we already completely trounced. There's a very direct system of 'man pulling the strings in the shadows' responsible for her, which means very little sticks to her. It's not like Zenos or Emet (or basically any Ascian, actually) where they are entirely responsible for their own crimes and have nobody else to blame. But it's also not like Fordola, where what's above her is so large and indistinct that you can't easily place blame further up and she ends up bearing some level of personal responsibility.
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May 10, 2021 12:12
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Vanderdeath posted:I wonder why that when conversations about awful crimes against humanity crop up, no one ever mentions Cylva. She was unfortunately pressed into a role she didn't want (much like Fordola) yet she was successful in killing roughly 80% of a planet's population via the Flood. The narrative and the characters all seem pretty cool with the fact that she's partially responsible for a lot of sorrow, but compared to Fordola and Yotsuyu, she barely catches any smoke from the fanbase. She didn't know the Flood was going to happen -- NONE of them did, not even the Ascians. Yeah, if the Ascians' plan had played out the way they intended, the First would have been completely wiped out (as well as tons of people dead on the Source), and she would have been complicit in that happening, but then she'd be, you know, dead (because her death was supposed to be the breaking point for it all happening in the first place) and we wouldn't be talking about her. Instead, Ardbert chose to spare her and kill the Ascians, and THAT caused the Flood. So are we going to blame the 80% depopulation of the First on Ardbert? We also don't actually KNOW what Cylva did as Shadowkeeper. She was plopped on the First by Elidibus, told "you need to do Dark things if we're ever to cure the 13th of the Flood of Darkness", and left to her own devices. She undoubtedly did villainous things -- that was the enire point -- but we don't know if they extend to "crimes against humanity" status. We know she backed the court sorcerer in Voebert who turned everyone into monsters, but that otherwise seemed like it was pretty much him, and I think there was some implication that she was responsible for the stoneblight that was affecting the dwarvers? Again, what she actually DID as Shadowkeeper (other than having her servants terrorize the local populaces) is all rather vague, and she wasn't even aware that everyone on the First would ultimately die for her doing so -- she just thought that her dying as a "villain" would save her home. And, yeah, now that she's not dead, she'd been trying to make amends by at least facilitating the putting down of her former comrades' possessed corpses, and the moment that's done she tries to complete her atonement via suicide by WoL (which doesn't pan out).
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May 10, 2021 13:15
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Seems Suicide by WoL requires turning yourself into a moon bunny first
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May 10, 2021 14:35
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Characters like Cylva don't draw as much ire because, as far as we're aware, she's already spent over a hundred years feeling bad about it and basically tried to get us to put her out of her misery. Not much we can do there that she isn't already doing to herself. But then you look at Gaius, who's newfound hate-boner for the Ascians conveniently puts them on our side now, and will still casually comment about how he still believes in the Empire, and intends to "do it right" this time when he finally gets all the "bad apples" out of there, and it's hard to have any real sympathy for the man, even when that same Empire literally eats up his children alive in mad scientist mecha experiments. Twibbit posted:Seems Suicide by WoL requires turning yourself into a moon bunny first Turning into a God in the presence of a renowned God-Slayer is never a good move, no.
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May 10, 2021 14:45
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Cylva was snatched from her ruined world to the First and tasked by Elidibus to setup a bunch of problems, and then also work to stop them. The plan was to culminate with Ardbert killing her, bringing The First just to the required amount of light aether for a rejoining. Instead he spared her, moved on to kill her Ascian masters, which was too much and triggered the Flood. Then the rest of the Warriors were brought to The Source and tasked by Elidibus to cause problems, also solve them, and to bring the Source to the required amount of Light to allow the rejoining. I feel like condemning Cylva also requires you to look harshly on the rest of Ardbert & friends for their own desperate attempts to go along with the rejoining plan.
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May 10, 2021 15:00
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Sherry Bahm posted:Characters like Cylva don't draw as much ire because, as far as we're aware, she's already spent over a hundred years feeling bad about it and basically tried to get us to put her out of her misery. Not much we can do there that she isn't already doing to herself. gaius isn't actually saying that poo poo by the time werlyt concludes
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May 10, 2021 15:09
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Gruckles posted:I feel like condemning Cylva also requires you to look harshly on the rest of Ardbert & friends for their own desperate attempts to go along with the rejoining plan. I mean... I do, personally. But we've established that I'm a much harsher judge than most around here even for characters I do like.
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May 10, 2021 15:09
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to be very slightly fair to gaius, while he doesn't turn to the camera and says "garlemald was wrong and so was i for believing in it", he does say he'll adopt his children's life philosophy right after his killed them, and abandoned his quest to avenge garlemald in favour of helping rebuild his children's homeland instead. at this point maxima is more likely to play an important role in the garlemald expansion than gaius
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May 10, 2021 15:28
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I've said it before, but one of the reasons I didn't enjoy the whole Werlyt plot -- aside from kickass Weapon Trials -- is that it really felt like it's whole point was to try and hammer into my head that Gaius ain't that bad. Here's a bunch of kids we've never heard of before, and isn't it SAD that his KIDS are now war orphans being USED by the Empire to further their agenda? I mean, war orphans all over again, since he made them war orphans first, when he invaded their homeland, slaughtered their people, and adopted them? I mean, sure he used them too, but he CARED! (And let's just ignore all that stuff about Livia also being his adopted daughter, and fanatically loyal lover. We don't want you to consider he might have tried to bone any of his other war-orphan-now-loyal-soldier daughters.) Because even IF all that stuff that went down HAS changed him for the better, it still took the tragedy of war affecting him personally, through the deaths of all but one of his adopted children, for it to make any sort of real dent. But more importantly -- no matter what happens or what he does -- I still don't have to LIKE him. 
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May 10, 2021 16:05
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im glad you dont like him because it means i can like him enough for both of us. i hope gaius adopts me and leaves ME to rot in a gundam.
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May 10, 2021 16:21
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I’m still mad the weapons trials turned down the crazy over time instead of turning it up
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May 10, 2021 16:28
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Endorph posted:im glad you dont like him because it means i can like him enough for both of us. i hope gaius adopts me and leaves ME to rot in a gundam. Oh yeah? Well MY make-believe dad is in charge of Ironworks and he made a Gundam just for ME! Yes I was an unappreciative brat about it! So what. 
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May 10, 2021 16:30
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They didn't go full Nael body horror, but they did embed the brain of their test pilot into the system which is still pretty hosed up.
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May 10, 2021 16:30
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Yeah but it was just a boring robot! Come on!
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May 10, 2021 16:33
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As fights they're the weakest of any of the expansions imo. As noted the spectacle actually diminishes with each fight and the only good music track to come out of any of them is the Gaius theme, just not alot going on with them at all.
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May 10, 2021 16:35
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:They didn't go full Nael body horror, but they did embed the brain of their test pilot into the system which is still pretty hosed up. Far as existential horror goes, "I have no mouth and I must scream" ghost-in-the-machine is pretty high up there. For me anyway. Though I can imagine some people would welcome the idea of being a kaiju. I only really found the Sapphire and Diamond Weapon fights underwhelming. I still really dug Ruby and Emerald.
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May 10, 2021 16:40
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Badger of Basra posted:I’m still mad the weapons trials turned down the crazy over time instead of turning it up Feel like this was COVID's fault tbh. Diamond trial doesn't even have a phase 2
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May 10, 2021 16:43
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also before someone posts the cool robot meme at me yes I would prefer the robots be cool, if there are going to be robots
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May 10, 2021 16:48
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I don't have the context for anything in this thread but I've gotten a few reports over the past week about people getting too worked up about Final Fantasy lore ITT. Please try to be chill and kind to each other and don't monopolize the thread, especially about things like genocide and war crimes? 
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May 10, 2021 16:49
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Sherry Bahm posted:But more importantly -- no matter what happens or what he does -- I still don't have to LIKE him. That's an important part of Gaius, honestly; the game seems to be entirely accepting of the fact that some people won't accept him. Just because his internal journey is genuine, doesn't mean his external journey will be accepted, and that's perfectly fine. Orcs and Ostriches posted:They didn't go full Nael body horror, but they did embed the brain of their test pilot into the system which is still pretty hosed up. The Weapon raids got clever by starting with plain-faced batshit-insane boss fight design, and then instead of turning that up, turns up the story stakes and impact of everything around it. Ruby: Holy poo poo we're starting with Devil Gundam recreating Dalamud, that's insane! Meanwhile, a woman who's important to people we don't fully know dies in the most painful way Cid can describe without it turning over into comedic absurdity. Sapphire: An instance fight's never gonna be an earth-shatterer, but this one has you fight a giant robotic sea monster in a Gundam, that's pretty big! Meanwhile, BURN OUT THE BAD Emerald: A relatively more tame fight than Ruby, even if it is probably the hardest Extreme of the three, but it's still got some spectacle to it in fighting essentially an anime montage version of a country being bombed into oblivion and its citizens executed. Meanwhile, intentions and sanities are clearly fraying and the main antagonist kills several innocent people just because he can. Diamond: Well this one doesn't even have a second form, that's disappointing even if the setting is neat and there's some cool transitions. Meanwhile, a man becomes the Gundam Vidar, a long-time villain gets his big redemption moment, and we end with the biggest, most emotional gut-punch the game's ever swung. EDIT: Also, I will point out that the third trial in these series is usually the one that gets kinda shaky, even without COVID. The Warring Triad's third was Zurvan, who also didn't get much of a second phase, and the final Four Lords trial was... the one that I don't remember, compared to the spectacles of Suzaku and Byakko. It seems like whatever resources they put aside for the trial storyline kinda... run out two and a half fights in, every time. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 17:02 on May 10, 2021 |
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May 10, 2021 16:54
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yea despite me having some issues with the story itself they were actually really clever to start with hard body horror/kinda nonexistent story and slowly completely inverse the two. It hooked us with 'THAT GUNDAM JUST GAVE BIRTH TO A LADY' and ended with a fairly normal robot (albeit in a cool fight setting) with an absolute gutpunch story reveal.
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May 10, 2021 17:00
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I honestly got a lot more out of the gameplay itself (i.e. Trials) than the story. Even the big man-become-machine twist was something I immediately guessed at the moment the thing started acting of it's own volition inside the hangar.
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May 10, 2021 17:10
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Kaysette posted:I don't have the context for anything in this thread but I've gotten a few reports over the past week about people getting too worked up about Final Fantasy lore ITT. Please try to be chill and kind to each other and don't monopolize the thread, especially about things like genocide and war crimes? I am going to punch Gaius van Baelsar in real life
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May 10, 2021 17:14
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the hologram thing was a big punch, really bringing into stark focus that even though they were working for a brutal empire they had a found family and loved each other in a dysfunctional but real way warped by the society they lived in
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May 10, 2021 17:15
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I thought the Garlean villian whose name I already forget in that section was a little hammy for the story, and a little flat beyond that, but he worked as an obvious contrast to Gaius. I'm not even super hot on Gaius but I do like whats been done with him, as others have pointed out he could end up being seen as the hero of Werlyt if whatever happens next paints him that way and there will still be tons of people in universe who will never forgive him. That fits pretty well into the over all story and still lets the game do it's positive vibes themes. But that shot of all the ghost victims in the end of that questline is one of the most powerful camera shots in the whole game so far. I know we're in a spoiler thread but i don't want to spoil that for anyone.
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May 10, 2021 17:19
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Chillgamesh posted:I am going to punch Gaius van Baelsar in real life
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May 10, 2021 17:24
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Sherry Bahm posted:I honestly got a lot more out of the gameplay itself (i.e. Trials) than the story. Even the big man-become-machine twist was something I immediately guessed at the moment the thing started acting of it's own volition inside the hangar. Honestly, the main reason that part hit me hard wasn't because I didn't see it coming, but because as the whole thing unfolded I recognized where it was aiming. Alphonse's situation is based on a concept that's come up in a few bits of Gundam media, but was probably most realized in Iron Blooded Orphans--a series that clearly informed some other parts of Diamond and its surroundings, too. And... well, if you've seen IBO, then something Valens says after the raid rings very differently. IBO's equivalent to the Overmind system wasn't uploading a mind into a machine. It's to wire a person completely into it, while they're still alive. I... don't think Alphonse was uploaded into Diamond Weapon. I think, when Gaius asked where he was and Valens referred to Diamond, it's because he physically put his remains in there to pilot it.
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May 10, 2021 17:37
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Cleretic posted:I... don't think Alphonse was uploaded into Diamond Weapon. I think, when Gaius asked where he was and Valens referred to Diamond, it's because he physically put his remains in there to pilot it. I don't know any Gundam stuff but that was my read on it as well. Brain in a jar situation there.
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May 10, 2021 18:02
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yea it was as explicit as they could get without showing it, they put his actual squishy flesh brain up in there
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May 10, 2021 18:23
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There wasn't much spectacle but I really liked diamond mechanically
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May 10, 2021 18:23
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cheetah7071 posted:There wasn't much spectacle but I really liked diamond mechanically Agreed, it's a fun fight marred by the fact that half the people in Party Finder seemingly failed kindergarten.
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May 10, 2021 18:35
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Diamond Weapon Ex was super boring to me. The mechanics were dead simple except for numbers which was dead simple as long as your team can do basic math and match colors. So about 1% of the playerbase
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May 10, 2021 18:49
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It probably helps that I didn't farm it at all and got my first clear completely blind, which it's a great fight for
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May 10, 2021 18:58
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I cleared it blind, too, and i agree with ImpAtom, the fight is very boring. Even Emerald Weapon was more interesting, and that fight doesn't have a whole lot going on either, once you figured out the swords. And i'll gladly take yet another set of exaflares to dodge instead of the annoying platform hop gimmick which is just the worst (tho tbf i main MCH and it's extra annoying to have to platform hop when you're trying to heat blast)
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May 10, 2021 19:28
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HenryEx posted:(tho tbf i main MCH and it's extra annoying to have to platform hop when you're trying to heat blast) The teleport is the exact length of the Heat Blast GCD, just drop one weave.
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May 10, 2021 19:32
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cheetah7071 posted:There wasn't much spectacle but I really liked diamond mechanically yea it was a great example of a fairly simple but engaging and fun fight.
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May 10, 2021 19:51
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