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that which may eternal  may never die
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Aug 4, 2017 10:18
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The Time Dissolver posted:E: thread necromancy, sorry. I didn't care for this book, not sorry. I've been meaning to update the thread but my personal life has been busy and I hit the limits on my kindle's copy/paste function so until I bother to find a workaround for that things have been moving a bit slow. Any thoughts you have on the book or its subject matter is welcome. I liked the book but it was flawed in a lot of ways so criticism is welcome.
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Aug 4, 2017 12:23
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I can do the next chapter if you want, although iirc it's a big one. This thread isn't going anywhere anyway!
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Aug 7, 2017 18:23
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RIP Helsing: the normie
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Aug 8, 2017 03:11
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Reee.
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Aug 8, 2017 03:13
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I guess what I wanted to say about this book is that: I also recall with dread the "vampire's castle" phase of online leftism, and I agree that the identity-palooza of Tumblr etc. isn't a recipe for bringing revolution to the masses (in a way, it's its own very selective formulation of "it is forbidden to forbid"), and I don't think Nagle is equivocating or pulling a South Park w/r/t the Tumblr left vs. the alt-right... but the sympathy for Jordan Peterson and mentioning non-binary people in the same breath as otherkin and ABDLs is really revealing and I mostly just want to tell this writer to get hosed. The vampire's castle, c'est moi, I guess. e: I guess what I'm trying to say is it's pretty obvious to me that the Tumblr left's purity purges and inefficacy at reaching "normies" isn't the only thing driving Nagle's ire for them. The Time Dissolver has issued a correction as of 07:23 on Aug 8, 2017 |
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Aug 8, 2017 06:53
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The Time Dissolver posted:I guess what I wanted to say about this book is that: I also recall with dread the "vampire's castle" phase of online leftism, and I agree that the identity-palooza of Tumblr etc. isn't a recipe for bringing revolution to the masses (in a way, it's its own very selective formulation of "it is forbidden to forbid"), and I don't think Nagle is equivocating or pulling a South Park w/r/t the Tumblr left vs. the alt-right... but the sympathy for Jordan Peterson and mentioning non-binary people in the same breath as otherkin and ABDLs is really revealing and I mostly just want to tell this writer to get hosed. The vampire's castle, c'est moi, I guess. At one point Nagel mentions that 4chan is interesting in the sense of transgressions regarding suicide: It lured in both people who wanted to kill themselves as well as people who encouraged them to kill themselves because both were acts of transgression. I feel that her underlying thesis is that the Alt-right uses the Tumblr-left to create a similar kind of abusive feedback loop that rapidly reinforces and metastasizes. The sincerity of the tumblr-left is in a reinforcement loop with the brutal transgression-for-transgression's sake assault of the alt-right. The more people actually get demonized, threatened, doxxed, and show real emotion about it, the more the ennui-riddled newfags ask "Umadbro?" I think this view roots the alt-right in a desperate irony between thinking sincerity is weakness and desperately wanting to be earnest about... anything.
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Aug 8, 2017 07:19
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Something something, the alt-right took irony all the way around to terrible sincerity, while the tumblr-left took sincerity all the way around to deep irony.
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Aug 8, 2017 08:25
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Inescapable Duck posted:Something something, the alt-right took irony all the way around to terrible sincerity, while the tumblr-left took sincerity all the way around to deep irony. round and round the widening gyre the center cannot meme the shitpost escapes the shitposter
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Aug 8, 2017 10:39
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While the alt-centre manages to be both ironic and sincere at the same time since they never knew the difference in the first place.
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Aug 8, 2017 11:34
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It's very bizarre to me that "radical center," something Beltway pundits used to say to pretend that they actually believe in anything, actually became a very radical set of beliefs. We've all been talking about how parody of the right wing has been exceeded by reality. But the same can be said of those "truth is in the middle" jokes we all used to make about South Park and CNN.
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Aug 8, 2017 16:32
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVhpKHeh-TM Someone from 8chan is interview by Zerobooks and pretty much agrees with the thesis of Kill All Normies.
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Aug 10, 2017 16:55
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leftypol and idpol and other cute neologisms getting thrown around in unironic conversation are weirdly evocative of INGSOC newspeak, especially in the usage of these novel terms getting thrown around to mean "Whatever" because they're so new they don't have a settled and agreed-upon meaning yet
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Aug 10, 2017 17:25
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Willie Tomg posted:leftypol and idpol and other cute neologisms getting thrown around in unironic conversation are weirdly evocative of INGSOC newspeak, especially in the usage of these novel terms getting thrown around to mean "Whatever" because they're so new they don't have a settled and agreed-upon meaning yet I'm pretty sure it's a deliberate, ironic reference to Newspeak.
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Aug 10, 2017 17:28
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i think you're giving everyone involved more credit than they've earned
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Aug 10, 2017 18:05
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Willie Tomg posted:leftypol and idpol and other cute neologisms getting thrown around in unironic conversation are weirdly evocative of INGSOC newspeak, especially in the usage of these novel terms getting thrown around to mean "Whatever" because they're so new they don't have a settled and agreed-upon meaning yet Leftypol is a forum on 8chan. Idpol is short for Identity politics. Hope this helps.
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Aug 10, 2017 18:14
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there are a few leftypols and the term itself gets bastardized for use against chapo and such by people who dont even know what 8chan is. identity politics... come on you gonna make me write this out? identity politics are a moving target, definitionally. terms are being created so quickly and deployed by such hermetically sealed ideological communitites that agreed-upon meaning isn't getting a chance to sugar out so folk just cudgel each other with syllables during twitter beef. this is like a dystopian semiotic nightmare my english profs would seem really old and out of touch talking about a decade ago.
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Aug 10, 2017 18:35
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I don't think that's true of identity politics. People's use and understanding of the term has seemed fairly consistent to me over the last few years, with the primary disagreement being over whether or not it's a problem, and not whether it exists or how it's defined.
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Aug 10, 2017 20:01
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the trump tutelage posted:I don't think that's true of identity politics. People's use and understanding of the term has seemed fairly consistent to me over the last few years, with the primary disagreement being over whether or not it's a problem, and not whether it exists or how it's defined. Identity politics, like postmodernism and Marxism, has been around much longer than the last election cycle; identity politics as a term itself was born in the aftermath of the first Cultural Revolution in the 70s. And much like those other terms, whenever someone uses it you have to contextualize every thing they say by looking at all the other signs and symbols they use to try to figure out what sort of narrative they're borrowing from. This has been happening a lot recently with redefinitions of Postmodernism as well, and it is really tedious to untangle what the gently caress people are talking about.
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Aug 10, 2017 20:09
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I'm just a simple poster, but to me ID POLITICS has a fairly well defined meaning in today's cultural and political discourse. It means tumblr.
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Aug 10, 2017 20:14
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What the gently caress does that mean
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Aug 10, 2017 20:51
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i'll park this here https://twitter.com/leninology/status/802195266837348352 but add that sometimes people on the 'left' will mean something more like the second, particularly if they're crude class-reductionists. also complaints about 'idpol' are often so vague and whiny that it's not clear if anything specific is meant at all.
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Aug 11, 2017 02:11
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Willie Tomg posted:leftypol and idpol and other cute neologisms getting thrown around in unironic conversation are weirdly evocative of INGSOC newspeak, especially in the usage of these novel terms getting thrown around to mean "Whatever" because they're so new they don't have a settled and agreed-upon meaning yet newspeak was designed to limit the number of usable terms and made the meanings of terms used for criticism inherently contradictory; so "duckspeak" meant both to admirably champion the Party line with sound and stirring rhetoric and to be a mere shill for vacuous factional propaganda so if i were to call Fallen Hamprince a "doubleplusgood duckspeaker," it would be difficult to tell if i were praising or insulting him and it could be spun either way as necessary neologisms are often confused with newspeak but they are in fact the precise opposite: new specific terms used to identify a precise phenomena; this expands expression rather than limiting it the fact that different political factions disagree about those phenomena and therefore the meaning of the term used to describe it is utterly unremarkable Hodgepodge has issued a correction as of 02:37 on Aug 11, 2017 |
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Aug 11, 2017 02:29
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Hodgepodge posted:newspeak was designed to limit the number of usable terms and made the meanings of terms used for criticism inherently contradictory; so "duckspeak" meant both to admirably champion the Party line with sound and stirring rhetoric and to be a mere shill for vacuous factional propaganda Good point.
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Aug 11, 2017 02:53
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Portmanteus aren't dystopian.
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Aug 11, 2017 03:05
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Arguing that idpol isn't defined or doesn't exist is a debate tactic by people who believe and express idpol, to obsfucate the historical particularity of their own beliefs - idpol is not synonymous with anti racist or progressive, even if it's advocates intentionally mask that distinction for their own benefit. It's referring to very recent and specific set of beliefs that have become in vogue, and imo at the expense of ideological rigor, consistency and humanistic universality.
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Aug 11, 2017 03:08
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Sounds like someone took the red pill.
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Aug 11, 2017 03:35
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rudatron posted:Arguing that idpol isn't defined or doesn't exist is a debate tactic by people who believe and express idpol, to obsfucate the historical particularity of their own beliefs - idpol is not synonymous with anti racist or progressive, even if it's advocates intentionally mask that distinction for their own benefit. It's referring to very recent and specific set of beliefs that have become in vogue, and imo at the expense of ideological rigor, consistency and humanistic universality. what you are referring to is the omission of intersectionality and class in favor of calling people bad and wrong i haven't seen them tell anyone to check their privilege in awhile because that would mean acknowledging theirs the whole donut thing is nothing but a display of naked privilege, for example
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Aug 11, 2017 03:43
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Peel posted:i'll park this here Immediately https://twitter.com/ilVeleno/status/802630403806760961
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Aug 11, 2017 08:09
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Intersectionality doesn't solve the problem, it merely refames it as a 'lapse of judgement' on the part of idpolers - you just add a 'hotfix', and the problem is solved. But I'm not sure that's true, I think the problem is more fundamental than that, to the point that you can't really fix it without starting from scratch. I've considered making a dedicated thread on it, but that's effort.
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Aug 11, 2017 08:14
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The alt-right seems to love the book. Richard Spencer is a big fan: https://www.instagram.com/p/BXnngk4AWIJ/
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Aug 11, 2017 08:41
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GlassElephant posted:The alt-right seems to love the book. Richard Spencer is a big fan: https://www.instagram.com/p/BXnngk4AWIJ/ Richard Spencer is also for single payer healthcare, gay marriage, nationalization of industry, and the "soft" genocide of all non-whites in the United States.
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Aug 11, 2017 09:08
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Montasque posted:Richard Spencer is also for single payer healthcare, gay marriage, nationalization of industry, and the "soft" genocide of all non-whites in the United States. But don't call him a Nazi!
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Aug 11, 2017 11:10
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rudatron posted:Intersectionality doesn't solve the problem, it merely refames it as a 'lapse of judgement' on the part of idpolers - you just add a 'hotfix', and the problem is solved. But I'm not sure that's true, I think the problem is more fundamental than that, to the point that you can't really fix it without starting from scratch.
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Aug 11, 2017 12:52
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rudatron posted:Intersectionality doesn't solve the problem, it merely refames it as a 'lapse of judgement' on the part of idpolers - you just add a 'hotfix', and the problem is solved. But I'm not sure that's true, I think the problem is more fundamental than that, to the point that you can't really fix it without starting from scratch. Intersectionality was developed by activists to overcome identity-based divisions and priorities and articulate a common ground for solidarity. In this case, your use of 'idpol' reflects a wish for all these messy divisions of race and gender, etc,to just go away.
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Aug 11, 2017 22:59
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I was gonna save this interview until after we got to the chapter where it's relevant, but since it came up and it's a thread about her book, here's Angela Nagle's take on identity politics: https://www.vox.com/conversations/2017/7/21/15998246/alt-right-donald-trump-angela-nagle-kill-all-normies-interview quote:Sean Illing
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Aug 11, 2017 23:07
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i guess ol angie was a mills-style liberal after all
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Aug 11, 2017 23:12
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Intersectionality was created to try to reduce the infighting in activist circles caused by people trying to increase their status\importance by proving themselves more oppressed or less privileged than the others. It has no applicable use or even consistent definition outside the left-activist subculture.
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Aug 11, 2017 23:25
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breaklaw posted:Intersectionality was created to try to reduce the infighting in activist circles caused by people trying to increase their status\importance by proving themselves more oppressed or less privileged than the others. It has no applicable use or even consistent definition outside the left-activist subculture. or it more accurately describes reality
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Aug 11, 2017 23:37
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breaklaw posted:Intersectionality was created... by people trying to increase their status\importance by proving themselves more oppressed or less privileged than the others. 
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Aug 12, 2017 00:06
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