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The Catcher in the Rye is the perfect highschool novel imho
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Dec 17, 2015 18:22
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corn in the bible posted:*with the air of someone revealing a great mystery* "class, i want you to consider that perhaps gregor was not literally transformed" SYmbolism is forbidden in the capital L Literature thread.
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Dec 17, 2015 18:24
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Another issue with the traditional high school teaching of a book is that it suggests books have an objectively "true" meaning that must be uncovered and that this is the only possible meaning to be garnered from the text. Roland Barthes had a great quote about this, that writing must be "disentangled, not deciphered". Too many teachers allow kids to think they are reading the book "wrong." A good example is As I Lay Dying. Most of my teachers told me it was a dark comedy, but I saw it as deeply tragic and devastating.
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Dec 17, 2015 18:24
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corn in the bible posted:*with the air of someone revealing a great mystery* "class, i want you to consider that perhaps gregor was not literally transformed" this is a really boring reading imo
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Dec 17, 2015 18:25
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corn in the bible posted:The Catcher in the Rye is the perfect highschool novel imho I had a student in Mexico once tell me he read Catcher in the Rye and that it was the most amazing book and it really spoke to him I was like "Well, yeah, you're a teenager"
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Dec 17, 2015 18:26
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Another issue with the traditional high school teaching of a book is that it suggests books have an objectively "true" meaning that must be uncovered and that this is the only possible meaning to be garnered from the text. Roland Barthes had a great quote about this, that writing must be "disentangled, not deciphered". this being said, there is a set of "valid" readings of a book, which is smaller than the set of "possible" readings for that book like, if i took the bible to be a huge, sarcastic rave against religion, that would be a pretty dumb & wrong reading of the bible
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Dec 17, 2015 18:26
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V. Illych L. posted:this being said, there is a set of "valid" readings of a book, which is smaller than the set of "possible" readings for that book not if you are reading the Pierre Menard translation
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Dec 17, 2015 18:27
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V. Illych L. posted:like, if i took the bible to be a huge, sarcastic rave against religion, that would be a pretty dumb & wrong reading of the bible Sure, but at the same time, if you were like Winston Churchill's son and read the bible and came up with the interpretation "God is such a little poo poo" its not invalid.
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Dec 17, 2015 18:28
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corn in the bible posted:The Catcher in the Rye is the perfect highschool novel imho It's the perfect argument for assigned reading. You have to make kids read it at thirteen or they'll never appreciate it.
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Dec 17, 2015 18:30
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Ask yourself why you find what you find interesting. Interesting is actually incredibly subjective, and you can learn a lot about yourself by thinking about why you have the preferences you do. That is what I enjoy about "literary" fiction. It often challenges me to interact with my own idea of myself and draw conclusions about my own biases. You do not need to hunt down symbols like the world's most obnoxious easter egg hunt, but you also do not need to look at the book on the surface level. Interact with the text with a conscious awareness of the limits and conditions of your own perspective, and see where that experience takes you. Um, I really liked the Bishop in Les Mis. I thought he was the main character at first and when Valjean showed up I was kinda confused. I suppose me liking Myriel shows how much I want the Catholic faith to actually be like that? Seriously, the Bishop was probably my favorite character in the story and I'm not sure why. I have a strong bent towards Romanticism in general, I think. Byron and Keats and Shelley. I also mentioned Scarlet Letter earlier and Hawthorne is also apparently a Romantic, according to Wikipedia. I'm no stranger to introspection. I've just usually relegated my attempts to understand myself to the world of political and religious texts I read. And I've read a lot and still haven't found any that seems to fit.
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Dec 17, 2015 18:31
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V. Illych L. posted:this is a really boring reading imo gregor was literally transformed. The book would be indecipherable if he wasnt
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Dec 17, 2015 18:32
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I had a student in Mexico once tell me he read Catcher in the Rye and that it was the most amazing book and it really spoke to him Yeah, exactly. It isnt a book I'd read now as an adult, but it's really good for people that age.
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Dec 17, 2015 18:33
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Mel Mudkiper posted:"Why is the chair green in this chapter?" - an rear end in a top hat who I do not want to have a conversation with ok but srsly, dismissing a strange colour of a chair in a lot of literary novels will mean you'll miss stuff. noticing it & thinking about it is a lot of fun actually. doesn't have much to do with symbolism as a literary movement, but alice munro, to name a well known example, is a master of using every bloody detail in a way that supports her themes and ideas. a woman is putting on some guy's boots instead of her own, and they're too big for her? you bet it's important and tells a lot about her and the way the story's going. Burning Rain fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Dec 17, 2015 |
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Dec 17, 2015 18:33
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V. Illych L. posted:this is a really boring reading imo Haha, right? She was not a great teacher.
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Dec 17, 2015 18:34
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Ras Het posted:gregor was literally transformed. The book would be indecipherable if he wasnt I dunno when my grandma was dying I also threw an apple at her
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Dec 17, 2015 18:34
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V. Illych L. posted:this being said, there is a set of "valid" readings of a book, which is smaller than the set of "possible" readings for that book Grendel is interesting for this because it has a reading that's right on the line between valid and outright wrong. The book was clearly intended as an extended attack on nihilism, with Grendel as the narrative voice of nihilism meeting other philosophies in turn, rejecting them successively, and nevertheless ultimately failing because, gently caress, he gets his arm torn off. So its meant to be a systematic rejection of nihilism. But the narrative voice is so compelling its really easy (esp. For readers who miss the philosophies) to read it as just a nihilistic work, period. Same/ similar problem with Paradise Lost. Satan is just such a compelling character.
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Dec 17, 2015 18:35
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Caustic Chimera posted:I hated Romeo and Juliet, I preferred Taming of the Shrew. I really liked Of Mice and Men. I think that can hit home with just about anyone, whatever their age or time period. Even people I know who don't like him said it was his best work.
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Dec 17, 2015 18:37
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Grendel is interesting for this because it has a reading that's right on the line between valid and outright wrong. The book was clearly intended as an extended attack on nihilism, with Grendel as the narrative voice of nihilism meeting other philosophies in turn, rejecting them successively, and nevertheless ultimately failing because, gently caress, he gets his arm torn off. I have really been enjoying reading post-modern response novels. Right now I am finishing up the Mersault Investigation which is a response to The Stranger on the premise of "Who was the Arab?"
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Dec 17, 2015 18:38
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Same/ similar problem with Paradise Lost. Satan is just such a compelling character. <ilton was definitely pro Satan
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Dec 17, 2015 18:40
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also idgaf I like House of Leaves I would have done the color thing but you can't on this forum
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Dec 17, 2015 18:40
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NikkolasKing posted:I really liked Of Mice and Men. I think that can hit home with just about anyone, whatever their age or time period. Even people I know who don't like him said it was his best work. I absolutely hated Of Mice and Men, or at least how it was taught at my school and it's probably partially responsible for me not reading anything by choice from the ages of 13 through 19.
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Dec 17, 2015 18:43
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The only benefit to asking a 13 year old to read Of Mice and Men is that he gets the joke behind those Looney Tunes episodes.
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Dec 17, 2015 18:45
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NikkolasKing posted:I really liked Of Mice and Men. I think that can hit home with just about anyone, whatever their age or time period. Even people I know who don't like him said it was his best work. I watched the movie in high school and liked it, but I'm honestly not sure I would have liked the book had I read it then. I disliked Steinbeck's writing style in high school, but it sort of speaks to me now. Maybe I just had to get older to appreciate it. But maybe it would have worked, I just don't know. I just think you have to pick works that speak to people at that age, which YA is at least designed to do if it was published properly. I think some classics could, but I'm not sure which ones could, I'm just drawing a blank right now. Maybe some romances? And you guys are making me really sad I never read Catcher in the Rye as a teenager. I just remembered, I found a copy of Animal Farm and read it when I was really young. Didn't really get it, but Boxer was my favorite character.
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Dec 17, 2015 18:48
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CestMoi posted:I absolutely hated Of Mice and Men, or at least how it was taught at my school and it's probably partially responsible for me not reading anything by choice from the ages of 13 through 19. your wierd
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Dec 17, 2015 18:49
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Caustic Chimera posted:I watched the movie in high school and liked it, but I'm honestly not sure I would have liked the book had I read it then. I disliked Steinbeck's writing style in high school, but it sort of speaks to me now. Maybe I just had to get older to appreciate it. The first book I remember being prescribed reading that I really liked was The Outsiders. This was middle school and not high school but it still really "clicked" with me and I read ahead and finished the book long before my class did. So I think you are onto something.
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Dec 17, 2015 18:57
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Burning Rain posted:your wierd I'm by far the best and most insightful poster in this thread so maybe Of Mice and Men is in fact bad.
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Dec 17, 2015 19:00
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Has anyone gone back and read their high school English papers?
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Dec 17, 2015 19:01
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Caustic Chimera posted:I watched the movie in high school and liked it, but I'm honestly not sure I would have liked the book had I read it then. I disliked Steinbeck's writing style in high school, but it sort of speaks to me now. Maybe I just had to get older to appreciate it. Everything I've re-read post high school has basically been a new, revelatory experience because of how stupid I was and generally 15 year olds are. I was in honors classes and aced them, and probably understood >10% of The Grapes of Wrath when I read it. All of the injustices, empathy, hardships, understanding of a time before mine, all that I just totally missed in favor of an ability to correctly summarize the plot and explain the significance of symbols like the tortoise crossing the road. I hope that schools are trying to at least alter how they teach literature, using YA junk to practice exploring literary works and figuring out why they speak to you and how they function, in order to make stuff like The Old Man and the Sea accessible at some point, and maybe it's just me and my video-game damaged brain, but I can't conceive how a sophomore in high school is really, truly supposed to appreciate something like The Great Gatsby's themes of the crumbling American dream or whatever, except on a totally surface level. Also, I read Catcher in the Rye probably around 13 or so, I have no memory of it whatsoever.
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Dec 17, 2015 19:02
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CestMoi posted:I'm by far the best and most insightful poster in this thread so maybe Of Mice and Men is in fact bad. You also like Borges and Calvino so maybe you are just bourgeois
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Dec 17, 2015 19:06
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Zesty Mordant posted:Everything I've re-read post high school has basically been a new, revelatory experience because of how stupid I was and generally 15 year olds are. Any time I remember thinking something was really good when I was 15 I have to remember I also thought Final Fantasy VII had a really good story
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Dec 17, 2015 19:12
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But while Catcher in the Rye is good for highschool, what do you think is the perfect college freshman lit reading? I'd say Joyce's "The Dead" but I dunno
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Dec 17, 2015 19:13
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corn in the bible posted:But while Catcher in the Rye is good for highschool, what do you think is the perfect college freshman lit reading? I'd say Joyce's "The Dead" but I dunno Camus and Orwell
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Dec 17, 2015 19:14
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Zesty Mordant posted:
I forgot I read the Great Gatsby as well. It's all coming back to me sort of. I think part of the problem with that one is you hate everybody, and you don't that you're supposed to hate everybody. I really thought about going into teaching when I left high school, but I went to several teachers I trusted, and they all told me not to, that it wasn't worth it. Part of me wonders if it was "Oh god save the children from her" but I think part of it was they really hate what the system does to them. One of my friends told me if I went into teaching I'd kill all the children in the mimeograph room. I really wish we could instill that love of reading though, even if it's with mediocre books.
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Dec 17, 2015 19:15
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Yeah, like how us a teenager going to understand what the hell Tom Joad is talking about? It's not that they're stupid (some are, but many aren't); they just straight up don't have the experiences necessary to relate to what those people are dealing with. Teenagers like Ender's Game, because it's about someone who is treated like poo poo but deep down is better than everyone else. The problem is to find something they'll engage with that is also actually any good at all
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Dec 17, 2015 19:19
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Camus and Orwell all ages should read camus imo he is Good
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Dec 17, 2015 19:26
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How do I get girls to think I'm sexy because I read good books
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Dec 17, 2015 19:27
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blue squares posted:How do I get girls to think I'm sexy because I read good books when you find out please let us know
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Dec 17, 2015 19:28
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blue squares posted:How do I get girls to think I'm sexy because I read good books Lick the tip of your finger like a clitoris before turning every page
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Dec 17, 2015 19:32
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blue squares posted:How do I get girls to think I'm sexy because I read good books go for nerdy girls. and use your sexy voice when you tell them about the depths of lolita
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Dec 17, 2015 19:33
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Like I was struck during my re-reading of Grapes of Wrath in the part where they basically dissuade Tom or someone from picking and eating from a nearby farm crop even though he's starving because someone, the police even, would kill him, roll him into a ditch and the papers would report "vagrant found dead" and that would be that, and 15 year old me either skimmed this because it wasn't integral to the basic plot or just thought "okay." Either way, even if the teacher found it important enough to point out to us, I'd forgotten it entirely. The thing is though, that passage is so culturally relevant today, and getting kids to realize it would be astounding, and I'm still sure you can teach anything to anyone so long as you do it right, but as I remember it, kids reading this aren't being prepared to disassemble it outside of just telling them straight-up "this is about how we Other people, poors don't get a choice, doesn't matter if its Oakies or black people, get it?" and no one benefits from just being told poo poo, especially a teenager. I realize this is turning into a repetitive / 'why I became a teacher' kind of discussion so I'll stop Instead, I'll say that I've gotten deeper into The Dictionary of the Khazars and it's starting to make sense, the story of Dr. Suk is what really started things tying together.
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Dec 17, 2015 19:34
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