|
Koalas March posted:"These days" That video was made almost 2 decades ago. Let it go. If I was a generous person I'd say it might be a result of confusing with the later dynasties that had a lot of Grecian blood in them (supposedly), but I'm not feeling generous.
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 17:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 19:20 |
|
|
Taerkar posted:If I was a generous person I'd say it might be a result of confusing with the later dynasties that had a lot of Grecian blood in them (supposedly), but I'm not feeling generous. Black people can't possibly have a great empire in their heritage, duh!
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 17:25
|
|
|
I didn't even know about Mali until Civ IV.  Southern education at its finest.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 17:26
|
|
|
Fluffdaddy posted:Black people can't possibly have a great empire in their heritage, duh! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x-1w_vEEEo This BBC series was pretty interesting
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 17:27
|
|
|
Taerkar posted:I didn't even know about Mali until Civ IV. You never played Where in Time is Carmen Sandiego? You poor, deprived child.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 17:27
|
|
|
That was too new for my school's budget. Played the hell out of Number Munchers and Oregon Trail tho!
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 17:28
|
|
|
Fluffdaddy posted:Black people can't possibly have a great empire in their heritage, duh!  Am I wrong to feel like the constant rehash of Egypt is really just a distraction from unquestionable achievements of Africans and their history?
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 17:32
|
|
|
ReidRansom posted:Good it may be, but I'm calling this another example. I know it's still a somewhat controversial topic, but ancient Egyptians are generally thought these days to have looked pretty much the same as they do now, not like Eddie Murphy or Magic Johnson. Iman gets a pass. This is absolutely not correct. There are multiple eras of Egypt, and the empire that built the pyramids was not the same dying dynasty that Cleopatra was a part of. Out of the 31 dynasties of Egypt, the only ones who were not pure African were the last 6, which were a part of the Persian conquest, and the the Greco-Roman periods that followed. Please don't speak on things you only know as half facts to discount black history. there wolf posted:
Attributing the pyramids of Egypt or even the ones in South America to aliens or other supernatural elements feels like a way for them to whitewash POC history. Fluffdaddy fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Jan 13, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 17:33
|
|
|
The whole "Aliens built the pyramids" and similar stuff is Eurocentrism at its finest.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 17:37
|
|
|
ReidRansom posted:Idunno, I feel like either race matters and and should be respected uniformly, or it doesn't and people should just do whatever they want across the board. e: Either one, I don't care which. This is really dumb because there are Egyptians today that look more like Eddie Murphy or Magic Johnson than they do Omar Sharif Taerkar posted:If I was a generous person I'd say it might be a result of confusing with the later dynasties that had a lot of Grecian blood in them (supposedly), but I'm not feeling generous. The Pyramids were as ancient to Cleopatra (a descendant of the Greek General Alexander placed in charge of Egypt before his death) as she is to us today. They vastly predate any foreign influence in the area. 420 Gank Mid fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Jan 13, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 17:44
|
|
|
Taerkar posted:The whole "Aliens built the pyramids" and similar stuff is Eurocentrism at its finest. Its double hosed because it reinforces the idea that Egypt did not matter except those 300 or so years it hosed with Rome as opposed to the preceding nearly 2500 years. Edit: To extrapolate further, the Egyptians and the Sumerians were discovering the Pythagorean theorem while Europeans were still wandering the forest like cavemen and those Greeks had the loving nerve to name it after themselves nearly two millennia later. Fluffdaddy fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Jan 13, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 17:46
|
|
|
Fluffdaddy posted:This is absolutely not correct. Oh no. gently caress that all that aliens crap. It is absolutely some white-washing bullshit, except somehow worse in the sense that it's an end dodge around actual white-washing so smug assholes can skirt accusations of racism. "I'm not saying it was white people; that would be silly! I'm just saying it couldn't be Egyptians/Incas/Mayans/etc. so I'm going to pin it on some supernatural forces instead." I was really referring to the whole "were they really Greek/Perian/Arab" debate which has always seemed like such a dumb attempt to define Africa by poo poo western culture cares about, and then discredit them from it because racism. Establishing credit the way you have is important, but I also think discarding the idea that Egypt is the only important empire/civilization to come out of Africa is important.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 17:56
|
|
|
420 Gank Mid posted:This is really dumb because there are Egyptians today that look more like Eddie Murphy or Magic Johnson than they do Omar Sharif Yeah, isn't the first one something like 4500 years old now? You also get a rather neat refinement of the pyramid building process through the dynasties.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 17:59
|
|
|
White people: "Egyptians weren't black." Same white people: "The Illuminati cloned Akhenaten in a test tube to make Barack Obama."
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:02
|
|
|
Apparently when it was found, many cited the now known to have been freshly abandoned Agkor Wat to be evidence of a now extinct ancient advanced white civilization in the area. The ancient Aliens thing is much the same but with a slight degree of obfuscation placed over the formerly blatant racism.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:02
|
|
|
there wolf posted:I was really referring to the whole "were they really Greek/Perian/Arab" debate which has always seemed like such a dumb attempt to define Africa by poo poo western culture cares about, and then discredit them from it because racism. Establishing credit the way you have is important, but I also think discarding the idea that Egypt is the only important empire/civilization to come out of Africa is important. Yea, I know, I was just following up on what you said. I was still referring more to the first quote I quoted. Egypt is super important and is a cradle of civilization, along with Sumeria. There are also important African empires like Mali that traded and warred with Egypt, and would have surely acquired a lot of their mathematics and other scientific discoveries. Western culture loves to point at the Greeks as the start of a lot of things, but most of their knowledge was stolen from the ancient cultures that surrounded them, especially Egypt. Taerkar posted:Yeah, isn't the first one something like 4500 years old now? You also get a rather neat refinement of the pyramid building process through the dynasties. Yes, there is proof of attempted pyramids and the geometry behind them sometime in the 2nd dynasty, and the 3rd dynasty saw its first completed one. Hell, the largest Giza pyramid was built in the 4th dynasty in the 2500 BC era and took only around 2 decades to build. It was a feat of math and engineering that has survived most of recorded human history. Of course, the aliens probably put it there. Fluffdaddy fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Jan 13, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:03
|
|
|
Fluffdaddy posted:There are also important African empires like Mali that traded and warred with Egypt, and would have surely acquired a lot of their mathematics and other scientific discoveries. And later crashed their economies with a massive shopping spree and generosity to the poor.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:09
|
|
|
Taerkar posted:And later crashed their economies with a massive shopping spree and generosity to the poor. Yea, and to be fair, the Egypt they were dealing with was a shell of its former glory anyway. Mali was around the 1200 AD or so right?
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:16
|
|
|
I've always felt like the colonialist impulse to paint the other as a bunch of unwashed and dumb lessers is a classic case of protection, as it took Western Europe until the black plague to realize that maybe bathing was a useful thing, rather than an invitation for the devil to possess you. Similarly, Roman and Greek numerals, used by our paragons of science and engineering, were useless for doing non-trivial math, and had to be converted to Arabic numerals and back. The concepts of zero and irrational numbers were big loving heresies for a while! As y'all have said, we just can't stand the idea that everyone else, but black people especially, were doing important, cool, things while we were literally living in our own filth.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:18
|
|
|
It's seems almost like religious fundamentalism. We don't know, therefore God/Aliens/White people did it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:24
|
|
|
Octatonic posted:I've always felt like the colonialist impulse to paint the other as a bunch of unwashed and dumb lessers is a classic case of protection, as it took Western Europe until the black plague to realize that maybe bathing was a useful thing, rather than an invitation for the devil to possess you. And the main catalysts for Europeans were brought by the Mongols. Black plague and the knowledge of gunpowder. Edit: I dunno if you can do it yourself, KM, but could you or FAU revert this av?
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:25
|
|
|
Fluffdaddy posted:Yea, and to be fair, the Egypt they were dealing with was a shell of its former glory anyway. Mali was around the 1200 AD or so right? Mansa Musa went on Hajj in the 1330's
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:27
|
|
|
Fluffdaddy posted:This is absolutely not correct. I'm not discounting poo poo about black history. History is loving history. Rulers come, rulers go, they come from different parts of whatever empire or from the areas around it as conquerers, and both they and the people they rule are a big spectrum, but the ancient Egyptian people, and most of their rulers, probably looked like the people still inhabiting the footprint of that empire. I'm not handing anything to white people, I'm not taking anything away from black people, I'm saying the Egyptian people are and were Egyptian people and how about giving them some credit and stop trying to claim them like I'm being accused of doing for some reason. And all I really wanted to know anyway is why it's not OK to have a white person portray a black character because that becomes erasure and poo poo, but it is absolutely OK to do the reverse, or substitute one POC for any other under some blanket of non-white when that's a pretty fucky thing to do as well. Either race matters or it doesn't, you can't have it both ways and say it only matters when you say it does, but not when someone else does.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:27
|
|
|
ReidRansom posted:And all I really wanted to know anyway is why it's not OK to have a white person portray a black character because that becomes erasure and poo poo, but it is absolutely OK to do the reverse, or substitute one POC for any other under some blanket of non-white when that's a pretty fucky thing to do as well. Either race matters or it doesn't, you can't have it both ways and say it only matters when you say it does, but not when someone else does. "Why isn't there a white history month or White Entertainment Television?"
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:30
|
|
|
420 Gank Mid posted:Mansa Musa went on Hajj in the 1330's And he was one of their last great Kings. Though not really Negrotown related, but Negrotown-adjacent is the Muslim Conquest and how it shaped the way Africa was treated and used by the Europeans through the Crusades and later into the European empire land grabs. I often ponder if the Muslim occupation of the cradle is what stymied off the eventual rise of European dominance of Africa, or was it a catalyst for getting them to notice it in the first place. And none of this would have saved the Southern African villages and communities. Its all just hosed up.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:33
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:"Why isn't there a white history month or White Entertainment Television?" Try harder please.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:36
|
|
|
JFairfax posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x-1w_vEEEo Gonna watch this later. Are there anymore decent historical documentaries like this that can be found on youtube? Searching for them usually ends up with me being extremely frustrated at some of the bad videos people put out with tons of misinformation just to get rage clicks.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:36
|
|
|
ReidRansom posted:I'm not discounting poo poo about black history. History is loving history. Rulers come, rulers go, they come from different parts of whatever empire or from the areas around it as conquerers, and both they and the people they rule are a big spectrum, but the ancient Egyptian people, and most of their rulers, probably looked like the people still inhabiting the footprint of that empire. I'm not handing anything to white people, I'm not taking anything away from black people, I'm saying the Egyptian people are and were Egyptian people and how about giving them some credit and stop trying to claim them like I'm being accused of doing for some reason. Except you are wrong wrong wrong and more wrong. For the majority of ancient Egypt's history, until the Persian conquest 2000 years after the Empire's founding, every last ruler was a black Egyptian. The majority of Egypt's population was black. Most of the people who became a part of the Empire came from the south were black. So you're original claim was wrong. Period.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:36
|
|
|
ReidRansom posted:I'm not discounting poo poo about black history. History is loving history. Rulers come, rulers go, they come from different parts of whatever empire or from the areas around it as conquerers, and both they and the people they rule are a big spectrum, but the ancient Egyptian people, and most of their rulers, probably looked like the people still inhabiting the footprint of that empire. I'm not handing anything to white people, I'm not taking anything away from black people, I'm saying the Egyptian people are and were Egyptian people and how about giving them some credit and stop trying to claim them like I'm being accused of doing for some reason. You're operating according to blind axioms without seriously considering the whys behind them, and that's a pretty bad, dumb way to proceed. For instance, why is it bad for black characters to be played by white people? Answer: because there was a campaign for literal centuries born out of ignorance and deliberate malice to marginalise black art and repackage it as a white product. Minstrel shows were bad because they were a way to have black art without black artists (and spent much of their runtime making GBS threads on the black people while came up with the music in question besides). White people have not been systematically cut out of our culture in nearly the same way, so a black person playing an originally-white character does not have nearly the same oppressive weight behind it. Is that at all difficult to understand?
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:37
|
|
|
ReidRansom posted:I'm not discounting poo poo about black history. History is loving history. Rulers come, rulers go, they come from different parts of whatever empire or from the areas around it as conquerers, and both they and the people they rule are a big spectrum, but the ancient Egyptian people, and most of their rulers, probably looked like the people still inhabiting the footprint of that empire. I'm not handing anything to white people, I'm not taking anything away from black people, I'm saying the Egyptian people are and were Egyptian people and how about giving them some credit and stop trying to claim them like I'm being accused of doing for some reason. There are dark skinned Egyptians, there are light skinned Egyptians. There are Egyptians with blue eyes, and Egyptians with thick dark curly hair. Egyptians with smooth chests and Egyptians with shaggy fur. Even 'Egyptian' encompasses a range of peoples. Arabs, Bedoins, Berbers, Nubians, Copts, and Somalis can all be Egyptian and share the country's legacy. Egypt, and more specifically the Nile River has been one of the world's largest trade hubs for over 5,000 years. Egyptian sailors travelled as far as India and Iberia before the invention of paper. Do not pretend we are some monolith because the only thing you are familiar with is whatever garbage you learned in your bible study. Fluffdaddy posted:And he was one of their last great Kings. Though not really Negrotown related, but Negrotown-adjacent is the Muslim Conquest and how it shaped the way Africa was treated and used by the Europeans through the Crusades and later into the European empire land grabs. 420 Gank Mid fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Jan 13, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:37
|
|
|
420 Gank Mid posted:Mansa Musa went on Hajj in the 1330's That's still the best story.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:37
|
|
|
ReidRansom posted:And all I really wanted to know anyway is why it's not OK to have a white person portray a black character because that becomes erasure and poo poo, but it is absolutely OK to do the reverse, or substitute one POC for any other under some blanket of non-white when that's a pretty fucky thing to do as well. Either race matters or it doesn't, you can't have it both ways and say it only matters when you say it does, but not when someone else does. Because of historical connotations and the existence of privilege. This is no loving duh 101. You know the answer to this, and if you don't, go Google it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:38
|
|
|
ReidRansom posted:Try harder please. Racism is asymmetric, it affects society asymmetrically, and efforts to combat it must be asymmetric or they are fruitless. Do you really think that a black Hamilton and a white MJ are equally socially harmful?
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:39
|
|
|
Fluffdaddy posted:Except you are wrong wrong wrong and more wrong. I hate to [citation needed], but could you do me a solid and point me to a published and peer-reviewed source for this?
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:39
|
|
|
ReidRansom posted:I hate to [citation needed], but could you do me a solid and point me to a published and peer-reviewed source for this? Nope, because I am not your teacher. Edit: poo poo,you know what, gently caress it, I got this. Here is a list of rulers: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/phar/hd_phar.htm While eachy Dynasty only lasted a few decades to a century, they were dominated by families or clans of families. The majority were native Egyptians. Occasionally, a ruling clan would come from another part of the area, like Libya, or would be super black, like the 25th dynasty: http://www.eurweb.com/2016/03/black-pharaohs-the-kings-of-kush-egypts-25th-dynasty/ poo poo, here is an old kingdom bust of a king: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...2600_B.C.E..jpg Here is a bust of a middle kingdom pharoh mentuhotep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Kingdom_of_Egypt#/media/File:Mentuhotep_Seated_edit.jpg I could go on, but it was clear the were some black rear end black folks. Fluffdaddy fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Jan 13, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:39
|
|
|
ReidRansom posted:I hate to [citation needed], but could you do me a solid and point me to a published and peer-reviewed source for this? Could you for your own claims?
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:41
|
|
|
ReidRansom posted:I hate to [citation needed], but could you do me a solid and point me to a published and peer-reviewed source for this?  Show me the white person in this image.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:45
|
|
|
Fluffdaddy posted:Nope, because I am not your teacher. That's a pretty hard cop-out. Fluffdaddy posted:Because of historical connotations and the existence of privilege. This is no loving duh 101. You know the answer to this, and if you don't, go Google it. And lauding people for being racially subversive and casting POC just for grins isn't going to erase that. I skipped over this post earlier that made a good point there wolf posted:Leslie Odem Jr. made this point in one of those actors roundtables that pop up this time of year, that we don't just need black actors, but black stories as well. Colorblind casting gets you diversity in characters, but not diversity in stories or perspective which are also important. That is a far better idea than "hey let's redo [whatever] but get this, he's BLACK!" (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:49
|
|
|
420 Gank Mid posted:
no, but you see some of them are not as dark as the others so there were some *vomits blood*
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 19:20 |
|
|
420 Gank Mid posted:
Show me where I said Egyptians were white people.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2017 18:50
|
|