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One of the big problems stealth games have always struggled with, some more, some less, is that killing enemies is not rewarding enough on its own. Metal Gear and Deus Ex HR both state: knocking out is better, but you run the risk of them waking up again!! So theoretically, dead bodies are "safer". Sadly, that's just never enough of an incentive to kill instead of sending to dreamland. NPC AI isn't good enough to look for and wake colleagues, killing people tends to just result in reinforcements, and so on.
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Oct 9, 2021 12:07
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It could be better. Classic example being Starcraft with the computer having to be nerfed so it wasn't clicking things 700 times a second. Or how you could have enemies overtuned with realistic eyesight or binoculars and see you from across a warehouse and near perfect accuracy.
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Oct 9, 2021 12:18
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Cleretic posted:I'm not sure if you're talking about the first EMMI or the REAL first EMMI, since you fight a broken one to introduce you to the mechanics before the first 'real' one (the white one from the trailers). The first real one, I ended up just saying gently caress it and juking the thing because I couldn't get it to not be in the second room walking directly across the path I needed to be
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Oct 9, 2021 12:19
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Simply Simon posted:One of the big problems stealth games have always struggled with, some more, some less, is that killing enemies is not rewarding enough on its own. Metal Gear and Deus Ex HR both state: knocking out is better, but you run the risk of them waking up again!! So theoretically, dead bodies are "safer". A key distinction is that in MGS knocked out enemies eventually wake up on their own. And 5 also has that hold-up state where if you gently caress up down the line and set off the alarm all of those dudes "wake up" at the same time. Meanwhile in HR you really have to screw up in some obvious way in order to have knocked out enemies wake up. I think there it's less the AI alone and more that the mission maps are all completely linear. It's not like guards from the final room are gonna stumble across the guys you bonked on the head at the front gate half an hour ago. Also in general MGS plays with the cat and mouse alert phase stuff more whereas if you blow stealth in HR it's a giant pain in the rear end to recover from and it takes a ridiculously long time for alerts to cool down even if you do weasel your way out of a situation.
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Oct 9, 2021 12:24
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Len posted:The first real one, I ended up just saying gently caress it and juking the thing because I couldn't get it to not be in the second room walking directly across the path I needed to be Why do you assume that "juking it" is not the intended thing for you to do?
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Oct 9, 2021 12:25
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Simply Simon posted:Why do you assume that "juking it" is not the intended thing for you to do? Haven't you been reading the thread? You're supposed to reload when spotted
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Oct 9, 2021 12:29
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John Murdoch posted:A key distinction is that in MGS knocked out enemies eventually wake up on their own. And 5 also has that hold-up state where if you gently caress up down the line and set off the alarm all of those dudes "wake up" at the same time.
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Oct 9, 2021 12:30
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Simply Simon posted:Yeah the comparison is not perfect, but I was generally under the impression that many people also play MGS with silenced knockout pistol only and lament that the games give you a big arsenal of cool weapons but "no incentive to use them". Yeah fair. Though I think it's pretty variable depending on which game you're talking about. MGS4 is probably the worst for making it abundantly clear that Snake would really prefer to not kill people but also Drebin has an endless arsenal of gun porn on offer just in case.
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Oct 9, 2021 12:44
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Yeah, the MGS series has continued to increase your lethal arsenal far quicker than your non lethal one,at the same time as it increasingly enourages non lethal play styles. In MGS 1 corpses despawned while stunned enemies stayed around. 2 I believe started ranking you in kills(the ranking wasn't nn the game though, you only got a code to plug into a website) and made sleeping guys less suspicious than corpses, but you could still let loose on bosses. 3 upped the in game rankings,but also had the sorrow fight and unlocks tied to KOing bosses. 4 had even more rankings and iirc unlocks as well as the whole getting stressed out by killing thing. On the flipside it also forced lethal weapons into your equipped slots after every cutscene so who can tell what it wanted. PW and 5 went all in on the meta-progression thing which required you to KO people to recruit them which also removed them from the map so they would be detected. The real difference between MGS and Dishonoured though is that Arkane complain publicly about people playing it wrong when going stealthy and non lethal while AFAIK Kojima didn't. But IMO the best way to get people to experiment and try different things is to have have game mission based like the Hitman series, because it means that tying out a lethal option doesn't affect the rest of the playthrough and the cost of doing it again in the way you want doesn't require replaying the entire game. Also the latest trilogy's challenges are a great way to show what options are available. Though making the games missions based around assassinations also forces people to do at least one lethal option even if the are otherwise playing pacifist.
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Oct 9, 2021 13:02
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MGS1-4 at least give you end of game scores and killing people is a huge score loss. If you want the ranks that actually give prizes you can't use lethal force at all. I do appreciate in MGS3 the sequence where you walk through the river avoiding all the people you killed can also just be bypassed so even if you're a bloodthirsty maniac you don't actually have to trudge for hours.
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Oct 9, 2021 13:03
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RareAcumen posted:The scary monster in the next Resident Evil game is just gonna be a guy who'll give you a F for your performance if he catches you once you start shooting zombies. “The giant bone-clawed flesh blob stares at you with disappointment in its eyes…”
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Oct 9, 2021 13:26
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Barudak posted:
But then you’d miss out on the guy who calls you a cannibal for eating a vulture that ate him.
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Oct 9, 2021 13:28
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Len posted:The first real one, I ended up just saying gently caress it and juking the thing because I couldn't get it to not be in the second room walking directly across the path I needed to be Yeah, that is literally intended, because you don't get tools to actually hide from them until after the first real one.
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Oct 9, 2021 13:31
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Hel posted:Though making the games missions based around assassinations also forces people to do at least one lethal option even if the are otherwise playing pacifist. I've probably said it before in one of these threads but I wish more games would drop the morality nonsense and just go all-in on one or the other or otherwise side-step the whole thing. Well that or just stop turning everything into an underpinning capital S System. In the original Deus Ex, killing people or not didn't accrue Nice JC and Evil JC points or whatever the hell, people simply had different opinions on the matter. Hitman is clever because the premise makes it clear in no uncertain terms that 47 is there to kill somebody. The wrinkle is in exactly how he accomplishes that and whether or not he'll sully his hands and kill non-targets in the process. (I think also at least with the modern trilogy they did the whole "but maybe he's killing the wrong people for the wrong reasons!!!" story stuff but I'm not clear on the details.) It's not a huge leap from the usual stealth game considerations but it works well enough to set it apart from the crowd. Same way Garrett is too classy of a thief to rely on spilling blood to land the big scores. John Murdoch has a new favorite as of 13:57 on Oct 9, 2021 |
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Oct 9, 2021 13:49
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Hel posted:The real difference between MGS and Dishonoured though is that Arkane complain publicly about people playing it wrong when going stealthy and non lethal while AFAIK Kojima didn't.
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Oct 9, 2021 14:02
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Simply Simon posted:Why do you assume that "juking it" is not the intended thing for you to do? Because I assumed it would give me other routes around the scary rear end robot that murders me Supposedly I can parry it but I am not good at videogames
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Oct 9, 2021 14:10
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Morpheus posted:Kinda wish the Hitman series did something similar. You gain access to so many weapons and way to murder people stealthily, but are always disincentivized for doing so. Something in the challenge system could allow for doing a much louder or even silently murderous run. Most fun i had in hitman 2 was stealthy shotgunning in a miami escalation,watching everyone run around like headless chickens wondering where the shotgun blasts are coming from,but all the bodies have been expertly hidden.
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Oct 9, 2021 14:12
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It feels so satisfying to fry the bloater at the university in the Last of Us Remastered with the flamethrower Also, the game uses the speaker on the controller in a way I haven't seen before. When you "shake" the flashlight the sound comes from the speaker and audio recordings also comes out of that speaker. Alhazred has a new favorite as of 15:11 on Oct 9, 2021 |
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Oct 9, 2021 15:07
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Len posted:Because I assumed it would give me other routes around the scary rear end robot that murders me Oh, I know this feeling. Ghost of Tsushima is probably the only game where I've been able to make successful parries outside of the tutorial where it teaches you how to parry. I feel so skilled!!!!
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Oct 9, 2021 16:08
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Len posted:Because I assumed it would give me other routes around the scary rear end robot that murders me You get other methods over time (I know, a Metroid game with toolkit progression, what the hell), but the first one teaches you that really, the best trick in your arsenal is 'run screaming in whatever direction they'll have the most trouble following'. The parry is a stupid specific window, and is so niche even the game says not to rely on it. It's not a tool to beat the EMMI; it's an unreliable second chance if one grabs you. An unrelated Metroid Dread little thing: I like that the opening cutscene for a boss is Samus landing the first shot, obeying the actual mechanics of how to hurt the thing. It lets them do a 'glowing weak point' boss design without actually giving the boss a glowing weak point, which is really nice. ...granted, they'll sometimes give it a glowing weak point anyway, but they usually deploy that for a quick way to communicate a temporary 'things are different now, aim here instead' phase.
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Oct 9, 2021 16:33
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Len posted:Because I assumed it would give me other routes around the scary rear end robot that murders me The EMMI parry is deliberately about the hardest in the game, it's supposed to be a lucky last-second chance, not something to rely on. People always seem to get confused by Nintendo introducing new mechanics gradually, apparently expecting to get dunked in the deep end or hand-held throughout the entire game. Which I suppose unfortunately makes sense given that's basically the two kinds of games you get these days.
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Oct 9, 2021 16:34
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you need to hit the button before the EMMI's flash actually goes off to land the parry unless you're just playing metroid dread to pass some time before killing john connor, i don't think it's possible to react to the EMMI parry in the window it gives you
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Oct 9, 2021 16:46
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Oxxidation posted:you need to hit the button before the EMMI's flash actually goes off to land the parry It absolutely is but you do need to be prepared for that split second. You also have more than one chance on EMMIs. They'll do one flash when grabbing you and another as the spike comes out and you can parry either. The latter is a lot harder to parry I've found but it became pretty easy to parry the first.
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Oct 9, 2021 17:51
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RE: Stealth games like MGS, Dishonored, Deus Ex having combat but discouraging it via mechanics There are several reasons in no particular order - It's easy to make a rudimentary shooter and add a ton of guns. - Having the option to both shoot and stealth gives player agency on case by case basis. Getting to shoot THESE people but not THESE people feels bad. So you can shoot everyone with a sight cone. - The stealth element is essentially a timed puzzle. You need to build the whole level around it including mook pathing etc. Most of the dev time goes into this. When you have a functional gunshooty mechanics in place, you can just ignore that and ice people. The penalties are there because you're essentially skipping the game they made. For a true "two approaches" system you would need to make two games because good shooty levels are different from good stealthy levels. - Ludonarrative dissonance (lol) in all these games make a commentary on killing because you need to contextualize the stealth. Why are you sneaking when you could just shoot people? It's really about it being more engaging but these games have a story so they need to write the character and the enemies such that killing them is morally easy and the player character's enough of a blank slate to accomodate both approaches.
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Oct 9, 2021 19:56
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Vic did your mom code human revolutions bosses or something because you’re typing a lot of very stupid poo poo in defense of a very flawed game
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Oct 9, 2021 20:12
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Rockman Reserve posted:Vic did your mom code human revolutions bosses or something because you’re typing a lot of very stupid poo poo in defense of a very flawed game Everything they said is right though lmao
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Oct 9, 2021 20:31
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Is this what goons mean when they say that posting is praxis?
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Oct 9, 2021 20:32
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Rockman Reserve posted:Vic did your mom code human revolutions bosses or something because you’re typing a lot of very stupid poo poo in defense of a very flawed game I wear glasses. I paid to read this poo poo.
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Oct 9, 2021 20:34
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post more spreadsheets about it e : lol VVVV Rockman Reserve has a new favorite as of 20:43 on Oct 9, 2021 |
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Oct 9, 2021 20:35
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Rockman Reserve posted:post more spreadsheets about it If you're going to be an rear end in a top hat for no reason, at least know the difference between a collection of paragraphs and a spreadsheet
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Oct 9, 2021 20:41
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Oct 9, 2021 21:21
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Human Revolution loving owns and I've played it lethal and nonlethal multiple times
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Oct 9, 2021 21:29
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*me reading the current page* What a shame. It was a good thread... what a rotten way to derail. I wish there was something more I could say.
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Oct 9, 2021 21:35
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Rockman Reserve posted:Vic did your mom code human revolutions bosses or something because you’re typing a lot of very stupid poo poo in defense of a very flawed game HR rules though
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Oct 9, 2021 21:44
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Just LOL at "oh no, stealth gives you 1% more xp than lethal" equalling a "very flawed game"
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Oct 9, 2021 21:47
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Are people even enjoying games when they're played like this? Jesus.
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Oct 9, 2021 21:54
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Rockman Reserve posted:post more spreadsheets about it To be fair I did call you a gamer so it's understandable you'd be mad at me. I apologize.
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Oct 9, 2021 22:28
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Wake me when this derail is over. 
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Oct 9, 2021 23:56
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Y’all complained about Hadeschat and this is where we landed
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Oct 10, 2021 00:10
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There is no greater honor than being called a gamer
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